Art Names

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Art Names

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:20 pm

For art questions, what names should be accepted? For example, the painting now known as The Birth of Venus was called Venus Anadyomene when it was created. Are both answers acceptable? And the reverse, where the new name is not the most commonly used, as in La Gioconda for Mona Lisa, should both those be acceptable as well?

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:24 pm

Personally, I've seen La Gioconda accepted for Mona Lisa. As our lit/art editor at Gov, I tried to ensure that I hunted down all legitimate variant titles for works. In general though, from a player's standpoint, it's safer to use the most commonly accepted title in case the editors missed something. From a writer/editor's standpoint, I'd recommend including variant titles.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:26 pm

On the foreign language translation front, you should pretty much always accept either the original language or the common English translation(s) (which you'd likely have to do a few minutes of research to verify). La Giaconda for Mona Lisa would be good for this reason, methinks.

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:37 pm

Also, if you're giving a title in a foreign language, be sure you know it exactly. We had a player leave out a syllable of Latin just yesterday.

If the question says something like, "name this painting whose title translates to 'The Maids of Honor'" you would logically answer "Las Meninas" although if asked for the English translation of "Las Meninas" you might say "Maids of Honor," which is acceptable under standard beginning article rules but might not be in this case due to not translating the "Las."

For example, in practice early last year, the name of a work was given as the Latin translation of "Don't touch me." Being a Latin student and a n00b who'd never heard of the painting, I said "Noli tangere me," which is a grammatically correct translation. I won the argument in practice, but the technical name is "Noli Me Tangere."

Translation questions are messy. As a player I'd say play it safe, as a writer I'd say edit them out.
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Post by NoahMinkCHS » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:41 pm

Much like in literature, (original) foreign language titles should always be accepted. Also, since many art titles weren't assigned by the artist, we should be even more lenient on those. (For example, an answer line for a certain van Eyck work that I've often seen reads something like "accept anything that includes 'Arnolfini' and the suggestion of marriage or wedding". (And then again, other sources refer to the work as "The Arnolfini Portrait"...)

NAQT (Rule I-26), PACE (Rule I-4), and ACF (Rule G-3) all concur. ACF makes the good point to avoid esoteric foreign answers when you know the correct title, and as such...

...I would certainly take "La Giaconda", but only while glaring at the player and resisting the urge to use inappropriate language. Unless it was a college tournament, in which case I wouldn't bother resisting.

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Post by NoahMinkCHS » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:51 pm

Oh, and let me share one of my favorite examples of "how not to answer a foreign language question". It's a couple years old so I may have forgotten the details, but I think the player gave an answer like "Les Femmes d'Avignon" for "Les Demoiselles d'Avignon". He tried to argue that it meant the same thing, but that doesn't matter when we're talking about titles. I guess he thought it was a good idea to translate the English title back into French, but ended up with a different French phrase than the actual title. I'm not 100% sure if he knew the English title, but if he did, that's as good an example as any to not try to impress us with your French pronunciation.

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Post by Tegan » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:37 pm

As someone trying to write rules for moderators, this is always a frustrating thing to put into words.

As a moderator, I am generally very lenient on accepting titles of art works and even some foreign literature titles (Outsider vs. Stranger, In Search of Lost Time/Remembrance of Things Past). I always try and preach that no matter who wrote the question, unless they specifically bar certain answers, generally be lenient.

Is there someone who suggests otherwise? I would like to hear of there is something I am not considering.

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Re: Art Names

Post by Ford08 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:03 pm

Well this has actually bugged me for some time. I am the art and classical music person for our team and I have several "wrong" answers that I just don't understand.

1. The Thinker was originally called The Poet and that is what I answered and they had The Thinker on the paper so I was wrong.

2. The winged victory of (spelling error sorry guys) somothrace is not the winged victory. And I said the proper name and they could not accept it but they did accept Winged Victory, Victory of Somothrace. So I really don't understand that.

I guess this was a little off of what this thread was about but this has been bothering me. I do think that modern names should be accepted as well as the former names. I think the Question provider should research their topic throughly enough to know all possiable answers, though I know it is difficult.
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Re: Art Names

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:08 pm

Ford08 wrote:Well this has actually bugged me for some time. I am the art and classical music person for our team and I have several "wrong" answers that I just don't understand.

1. The Thinker was originally called The Poet and that is what I answered and they had The Thinker on the paper so I was wrong.

2. The winged victory of (spelling error sorry guys) somothrace is not the winged victory. And I said the proper name and they could not accept it but they did accept Winged Victory, Victory of Somothrace. So I really don't understand that.

I guess this was a little off of what this thread was about but this has been bothering me. I do think that modern names should be accepted as well as the former names. I think the Question provider should research their topic throughly enough to know all possiable answers, though I know it is difficult.
Necroooo.

Also, the "what's on the paper is what's acceptable" rule has plagued Alabama quiz bowl for years. I don't know the content of the question, but there may have been some clue that excluded The Poet from being acceptable. The second one has no excuse for not being taken.

I always find that it helps to be as less specific as possible when answering. This might come back and bite you sometimes, but, more often than not, it will help. It's always better to be prompted than to not be given points.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:13 pm

2. The winged victory of (spelling error sorry guys) somothrace is not the winged victory. And I said the proper name and they could not accept it but they did accept Winged Victory, Victory of Somothrace. So I really don't understand that.
As far as I know you are wrong about the whole "Winged Victory" by itself thing - art titles are often not canonical, so there is little distinction between what is right, and in this case winged Victory I think should be acceptable by itself. However, you are absolutely right that question writers need to include alternate answers, which is something that I've noticed plagues poor set, and both of the answers you gave as examples should have been accepted.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Ford08 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:18 pm

by Deesy Does It on Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:13 pm

2. The winged victory of (spelling error sorry guys) somothrace is not the winged victory. And I said the proper name and they could not accept it but they did accept Winged Victory, Victory of Somothrace. So I really don't understand that.

As far as I know you are wrong about the whole "Winged Victory" by itself thing - art titles are often not canonical, so there is little distinction between what is right, and in this case winged Victory I think should be acceptable by itself. However, you are absolutely right that question writers need to include alternate answers, which is something that I've noticed plagues poor set, and both of the answers you gave as examples should have been accepted.
Well actually I learned the whole not accept winged victory in a Pickrell set, but It was a bonus so it did not mean that much but if was a tossup I would have made a bigger deal about it.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:20 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure that's really the final authority on acceptable answers. At conference last week there were like 3 inaccuracies in at least 2 games on the answer lines.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Ford08 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:23 pm

Yah, well hears the kicker...I learned that it was wrong on a pickrell set and guess what provider we used at our own tournament this year? Yep Pickrell, he compleatly contradicted himself. This is why I was so flabergasted.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Terrible Shorts Depot » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:30 pm

I think that you must be relatively lenient. For example, The Night Watch, Night Watch, De Nachtwacht, and The Company of Frans Banning Cocq and Willem de Ruytenburch should all be acceptable for the Rembrandt painting. There must be restraint. However, incorrect transalations should be just that: incorrect.
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Re: Art Names

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:31 pm

AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:Necroooo.
The next person to call necro is getting a handful of tempban slapped up their side. If the thread is unlocked in an open forum, it is fair game for posting.
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Re: Art Names

Post by NoahMinkCHS » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:25 pm

Did you know that the sculpture is more commonly known as "The Thinker" and just said "The Poet", or is that really the only name you know (well, knew) for it?

Giving more esoteric/obscure equivalents, while technically fine, is sort of frowned-upon. If you want to show off superior knowledge, you can do it by getting more questions, not by finding different ways to answer.
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Re: Art Names

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:10 pm

la2pgh wrote:I think that you must be relatively lenient. For example, The Night Watch, Night Watch, De Nachtwacht, and The Company of Frans Banning Cocq and Willem de Ruytenburch should all be acceptable for the Rembrandt painting. There must be restraint. However, incorrect transalations should be just that: incorrect.
For example, there was a question on View of Delft at a tournament this year. The other team gave "View from Delft" and was given credit, due to "translation differences." The moderator later retracted their points, however, due to the differing perspectives changed by just one word.
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Re: Art Names

Post by swwFCqb » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:13 am

NoahMinkCHS wrote:Did you know that the sculpture is more commonly known as "The Thinker" and just said "The Poet", or is that really the only name you know (well, knew) for it?

Giving more esoteric/obscure equivalents, while technically fine, is sort of frowned-upon. If you want to show off superior knowledge, you can do it by getting more questions, not by finding different ways to answer.
Yeah, honestly, if someone is going to a pompous ass by showing off their knowledge in that sort of way, then I personally feel no remorse for that person if and when he is ruled incorrect.

For the record, I am in no way saying or suggesting that this was the case for you in this instance. I am just stating how I feel on the subject.
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Re: Art Names

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:42 am

I don't really think giving unnecessary information in an answer counts as being a pompous ass, or as a good grounds for losing points.
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Re: Art Names

Post by swwFCqb » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:46 pm

leftsaidfred wrote:I don't really think giving unnecessary information in an answer counts as being a pompous ass, or as a good grounds for losing points.
Although it may not be grounds for losing points, if he is giving unnecessary information in an answer in order to show off, then IMO he is a pompous ass.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:57 pm

Guys, this is retarded and has nothing to do with the actual point of the thread, which is "let's reemphasize that you should get points if you know them." - writers, put multiple acceptable answers in your answer lines, posters here, stop calling a high schooler a pompous ass for giving a more obscure answer. Seriously, people.
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Re: Art Names

Post by swwFCqb » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:20 pm

I'm sorry, but I just think it's funny that somebody tries to show off by giving an answer hardly anyone has heard of and then complains when he was ruled incorrect. It just seems like poetic justice to me.
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Re: Art Names

Post by rchschem » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:58 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:writers, put multiple acceptable answers in your answer lines, posters here, stop calling a high schooler a pompous ass for giving a more obscure answer. Seriously, people.
Yeah, but...don't try to make things hard on the reader. If you know the more obscure name but also know the more commonly accepted name, don't show off and give the reader a hard time (or require the tourney staff to have to go Googling to verify your protest). Not every tournament has a sizeable enough cadre of experienced readers. Just call it Night Watch, for goodness' sake. Accommodation is a two way street.

Plus, you get the satisfaction of being so smart that you know TWO names for the same work!
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Re: Art Names

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:09 pm

swwFCqb wrote:I'm sorry, but I just think it's funny that somebody tries to show off by giving an answer hardly anyone has heard of and then complains when he was ruled incorrect. It just seems like poetic justice to me.
Whether his/her intention is to show off or not, it is not incorrect. Call it what you want, I call it correct.
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Re: Art Names

Post by swwFCqb » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:37 pm

I never once said I actually believed it should have been ruled incorrect.
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Re: Art Names

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:14 pm

swwFCqb wrote:I never once said I actually believed it should have been ruled incorrect.
Except here:
swwFCqb wrote:then I personally feel no remorse for that person if and when he is ruled incorrect.
On a separate point, what makes Night Watch more "correct"? Just because all good quizbowlers learned it that way? The Company of Captain Frans Banning Cocq and Willem van Ruytenberg is its real name, so why should people be made fun of for using that?
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Re: Art Names

Post by dtaylor4 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:17 pm

I don't see the contradiction there. My interpretation is that he would not rule it incorrect, but someone would.

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Re: Art Names

Post by NoahMinkCHS » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:24 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:
swwFCqb wrote:I never once said I actually believed it should have been ruled incorrect.
Except here:
swwFCqb wrote:then I personally feel no remorse for that person if and when he is ruled incorrect.
On a separate point, what makes Night Watch more "correct"? Just because all good quizbowlers learned it that way? The Company of Captain Frans Banning Cocq and Willem van Ruytenberg is its real name, so why should people be made fun of for using that?
Nothing wrong with it, but certainly it is more esoteric. It's terrible strategy, too -- first of all, you're much more likely to make a stupid mistake, miss a word, and get it wrong when you have to say a dozen words vs. two; and secondly, you know Night Watch will be on the paper, you don't know about that other title. Yes, a good tournament should have all alternate answers, but mistakes are made; make it easy on yourself and the moderator by giving the commonly-known title (if you know it).
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Re: Art Names

Post by swwFCqb » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:24 pm

I never said I thought he should have been ruled incorrect, just that I don't feel sorry for him IF he is ruled incorrect. Perhaps I should have been more clear on that.

On your other point, it is quite evident that The Poet is a legitimate answer and should have been taken, but I have trouble trying to figure out a reason why someone would say The Poet instead of just saying The Thinker, which is what it is known as by 99.9% of people. The only reason I can tell for giving that answer is to show off, which is something that, as NoahMinkCHS put it, is frowned-upon by a lot of people, including myself.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Youse Da Force » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:26 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:
swwFCqb wrote:I never once said I actually believed it should have been ruled incorrect.
Except here:
swwFCqb wrote:then I personally feel no remorse for that person if and when he is ruled incorrect.
On a separate point, what makes Night Watch more "correct"? Just because all good quizbowlers learned it that way? The Company of Captain Frans Banning Cocq and Willem van Ruytenberg is its real name, so why should people be made fun of for using that?
I think it's more for simplicity's sake. But also, it can seem fairly pretentious to use particularly long or non-English names. You can seem like you're trying to rub it in that you got it, or show off.

I'm not saying I don't see a reason to do it, especially if you're not sure of the translation, or their are variations. (I'm thinking of one hundred vs a hundred years of solitude. It's easier to say the Spanish, if you know it and aren't sure of whether you'll say it correctly.)
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Re: Art Names

Post by Ford08 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:40 pm

Actually it was the first thing that I could think of. I knew it was the thinker but the poet came to mind for some reason a lot quicker. Also the way the question was worded made it make more sence. I really wasn't trying to be an ass so sorry if you took it that way. I also agree on the Rembrant qustion though a lot of questions give a previous or obscure title of it in the clue which I think is dumb.
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Re: Art Names

Post by swwFCqb » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:50 pm

Well seeing as this is the case, then I apologize for what I said. Now that this has been cleared up, hopefully now we can put this issue to rest.
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Re: Art Names

Post by lasercats » Sat May 17, 2008 5:16 pm

Similarly, should "New World Symphony" be accepted as a form of "From the New World"? This was disputed during a high school match a couple of years ago.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sat May 17, 2008 9:43 pm

lasercats wrote:Similarly, should "New World Symphony" be accepted as a form of "From the New World"? This was disputed during a high school match a couple of years ago.
I've seen it accepted.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Matt Weiner » Sat May 17, 2008 9:44 pm

lasercats wrote:Similarly, should "New World Symphony" be accepted as a form of "From the New World"? This was disputed during a high school match a couple of years ago.
Yes. It's a shortened form of "that symphony that is called the New World one;" you would accept "the Eroica Symphony" for the same reason.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sat May 17, 2008 10:22 pm

More importantly from a rules perspective I think, you'll find both text and audio publications of the symphony that refer to it as such.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sun May 18, 2008 12:05 am

Deesy Does It wrote:More importantly from a rules perspective I think, you'll find both text and audio publications of the symphony that refer to it as such.
Hm, I think this is the perspective to take. Because I can uniquely identify "the symphony that Schubert never finished," and though I've demonstrated unambiguous knowledge that I mean the Unfinished Symphony--just like I could demonstrate with "the symphony that's called the New World and not something else"--I haven't demonstrated knowledge of the title. It's the fact that the New World Symphony is also used in real life that matters.

EDIT: inability to communicate anything but a tautology fixed
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Re: Art Names

Post by lasercats » Sun May 18, 2008 2:22 am

Deesy Does It wrote:More importantly from a rules perspective I think, you'll find both text and audio publications of the symphony that refer to it as such.

Someone in Oklahoma said it was incorrect, until several musicians mentioned that it is written that way on many copies of music and recordings. One of (many) things about Oklahoma that suck: too many judges don't have enough contextual knowledge to actually "judge".
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Re: Art Names

Post by First Chairman » Sun May 18, 2008 9:13 am

lasercats wrote:Someone in Oklahoma said it was incorrect, until several musicians mentioned that it is written that way on many copies of music and recordings. One of (many) things about Oklahoma that suck: too many judges don't have enough contextual knowledge to actually "judge".
... which is why question-writers should help out a little bit, and "answer protest" rules help out a lot.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Bender Bending Fernandez » Mon May 19, 2008 10:45 am

I'm all for alternate titles. I still have no idea what the actual title of that Watteau painting is.

But if The Poet is an old, discarded title for The Thinker, and not an alternate title, then it shouldn't be accepted. Should we accept Trimalchio in West Egg for The Great Gatsby?

Heck, if someone answers Trimalchio they should get a neg five for pedantry alone.
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Re: Art Names

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Mon May 19, 2008 5:21 pm

Per this article (I know Wikipedia isn't always accurate) , we should accept Trimalchio after most plot clues, as a version called Trimalchio has been published. Also, The Poet has been used to describe the work at one point in history, so it should be an accepted even though it may be discarded.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Bender Bending Fernandez » Mon May 19, 2008 6:07 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Per this article (I know Wikipedia isn't always accurate) , we should accept Trimalchio after most plot clues, as a version called Trimalchio has been published.
Since Trimalchio was published, shouldn't it be considered a separate work? After all, I've heard plenty of questions on Stephen Hero.
Also, The Poet has been used to describe the work at one point in history, so it should be an accepted even though it may be discarded.
To me, it depends on when the title was used. If The Poet was merely a working title, discarded by Rodin during the creative process, then it's historical trivia and not an acceptable alternate answer. Has anyone ever really used The Poet to refer to The Thinker? (Educate me - I have no idea.) Alternate answers should reflect titles that are actually used in the real world, and not just be bits of trivia for potential use by rules lawyers.
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Re: Art Names

Post by theMoMA » Mon May 19, 2008 8:36 pm

Uhh, who exactly is the arbiter of "potential trivia" and "titles used in the real world"?
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Re: Art Names

Post by theattachment » Mon May 19, 2008 10:44 pm

theMoMA wrote:Uhh, who exactly is the arbiter of "potential trivia" and "titles used in the real world"?
No one; that's why this discussion is so interesting.

If it was a working title (i.e. The Poet) it was discarded. It's not the work's title and shouldn't be accepted as such. The trivia in it is that it was called x before it got its current title; this could be used for a really bad lead-in unless the working title is totally random.

As for "real world" titles, if a painting is colloquially known as something (like Night Watch) it obviously should be accepted, as should its published title. There is a definite gray area with that, but if people just bother to use the most well-known title that would likely be written down, it solves these potential problems.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Gautam » Mon May 19, 2008 11:27 pm

theattachment wrote:
theMoMA wrote:Uhh, who exactly is the arbiter of "potential trivia" and "titles used in the real world"?
No one; that's why this discussion is so interesting.

If it was a working title (i.e. The Poet) it was discarded. It's not the work's title and shouldn't be accepted as such. The trivia in it is that it was called x before it got its current title; this could be used for a really bad lead-in unless the working title is totally random.

As for "real world" titles, if a painting is colloquially known as something (like Night Watch) it obviously should be accepted, as should its published title. There is a definite gray area with that, but if people just bother to use the most well-known title that would likely be written down, it solves these potential problems.
I don't know about what "colloquial means" but let me remind you of this part of the discussion from ACF Fall 2007:
Someone wrote: Shouldn't Anatomy Lesson be good enough? One of my opponents buzzed in and said Anatomy Lesson was prompted and said Anatomy Lesson of Dr. but couldn't come up with Tulp. He was negged and I got the tossup.
Editor wrote:Show me a museum that has listed The Anatomy Lesson as a title for that painting and I'll say yes, The Anatomy Lesson should be acceptable. I know of no such museum, which is why it wasn't an alternate answer. Also, someone who says The Anatomy Lesson for The Anatomy Lesson of Doctor Nicholas Tulp should NOT be prompted. That's a title, and incomplete titles aren't promptable.
I pretty much agree with what the editor said. Per the Rijksmuseum, The Night Watch is an alternate title, whereas, as was pointed out, The Anatomy Lesson is not a title of the painting, and is therefore unacceptable. I have played questions where The Anatomy Lesson was accepted, but that is clearly wrong. As someone who's going to be working on arts questions for ACF Fall 2008 and other tournaments in the near future, I'll be applying this "so long as it's recognized as an official title by a museum or scholarly institutions, it's accepted" policy.

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Re: Art Names

Post by yoda4554 » Tue May 20, 2008 10:26 am

I'm going to repeat my assertion from the last time this was discussed that, for works that do not have author-granted titles, the moderator should always lean toward lenience, at least prompting and often accepting. Such works are often referred to by abbreviated or alternate names, much more so than properly-named works. For instance (and this is just based on a rather quick Googling, rather than an exhaustive search of the exhibition history of the work) if you learned about the aforementioned Rembrandt painting while browsing the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which I would say is at least a moderately reputable source for Rembrandt considering that the museum at which it is held was for most of its history state-owned, you'd know it by that name (http://www.minbuza.nl/en/welcome/pictures; go Art,then the Hague, then p. 22); similarly, I see several University course webpage links that refer to it without the guy's name, which, considering the focus on "what people actually learn in class," should have some small weight. That is, I think it's highly plausible that there exist people who know the painting and have primarily seen the title without the proper name; I see no reason to punish them for that by not, at least, prompting.

On a related note, for those of you who like being anal about not prompting on "Ethics" for "Nichomachean Ethics"--now that I actually look at my Penguin copy, I see that both the front and the spine read, in their entireties, Aristotle/ Ethics.
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Re: Art Names

Post by cornfused » Tue May 20, 2008 11:56 am

Yeah, here it is as just "The Anatomy Lesson" - http://www.minbuza.nl/en/welcome/pictur ... oto=detail

And my two cents: "Anatomy Lesson" should be a prompt.
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Re: Art Names

Post by Bender Bending Fernandez » Tue May 20, 2008 5:37 pm

yoda4554 wrote:I'm going to repeat my assertion from the last time this was discussed that, for works that do not have author-granted titles, the moderator should always lean toward lenience, at least prompting and often accepting.
Yes, reasonable variations on a non-authorial title (Arnolfini wedding/marriage/portrait) and colloquial usages (The Beatles vs. The White Album) - as opposed to entirely different, alternate titles like The Poet and Trimalchio - should always be accepted. This gives me an excuse to quote my favorite message board post:
DumbJacques wrote:Also annoying: When people fail to accept obviously equivalent answers, like the morons who go "It's Arnolfini WEDDING, not Arnolfini MARRIGAGE. Hahahahahaha, STUPID." Die.
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