JV tournament at Maggie Walker?

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JV tournament at Maggie Walker?

Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:07 pm

Edit: This event is now tentatively scheduled for April 26 (meaning we still need official approval and to actually finish our questions).

This event is still in the planning/writing stage right now, but Maggie Walker (known to some of you as Gov) is considering hosting a JV tournament late this season (most likely late April/early May). Last year there were tournaments in our relative area every weekend in that time span, but they had been announced already at this time last year, so we're waiting on some of the more established tournaments before we set a date. Any input on that would be appreciated. We're striving for seven rounds of pyramidal A-level-ish questions in the same format as GSAC.

We are also going to attempt to keep the field fair. I know it's fun to have a field day on easier questions, but we will have some restrictions. We're not running this as a strictly freshmen and sophomores only type thing as the name might imply, though. We're placing the mark at Gov B. So if you've beaten our A or B Team, this is not the tournament for you. We would still welcome your younger/more inexperienced players, however, if you would like to give them a chance to be more competitive. If you haven't played Gov B yet this year and you're not sure, some teams we've played very close games (5-15 pt difference) against have been Collegiate, Stuyvesant B, and RM-B. We're definitely looking to attract some of the primarily VHSL/Battle of the Brains only teams who come to GSAC and not much or nothing else due to travel restrictions. This would be a good opportunity for teams like that to play against VHSL/Battle of the Brains rivals on questions perhaps a bit closer to the difficulty level of those formats.

Cost, date, and a field cap have still not been ironed out. Any input/comments appreciated, especially if you vote in the poll and wish to explain your position. I haven't seen a lot of VHSL people other than Freeman on the boards, if any of you guys are friends with the other teams, it would be cool if you could spread the word. Cameron (Tower Monarch) and I have been doing most of the planning of this (it was his idea) and we'll be around to answer any questions. I haven't heard from him in a while, but winter break is almost over and I wanted to get this out here before people suddenly had much less time on their hands.

Edit: If the only tournament outside of VHSL/Battle of the Brains is GSAC, you're eligible for this tournament.
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Post by intothenegs » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:43 pm

The only tournament we've played outside of VHSL/Battle of the Brains this year was GSAC, but we're a team of all juniors. I have no idea how my team would do against Gov B though; would we be considered JV enough for this tournament?

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:02 pm

If all you go to is GSAC, you should be eligible for this tournament. In fact, I'll edit that into my first post as that's a good point. Thanks for bringing that up.
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Post by wowitsquinthaha » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:32 pm

If I may add my 2 cents:

I'm fine with having a JV tournament, I think it would be a great opportunity for young players in the area as well as young MLW players who have no experience in writing questions. Also, it gives teams a chance to play all of their games against teams that are close to their skill level, rather than playing some games against national level teams and some against mediocre teams.

My main problem with this idea, however, is the eligibility requirements. Honestly, I think using the lack of a win against Maggie Walker B is terrible idea as the only criterion for entrance into this tournament. Maggie B is one, VERY inconsistent, and two, not that good, and, as evidenced by our performance thus far this year, maybe not even a top level JV team. For example, take Robinson, who Maggie C beat last year (at a JV level bracket). This year, the exact same team has beaten Maggie A once, and Maggie B multiple times.

The "JV" status should be given on a case by case basis, with PPG, Bonus conversion, and performance against other "JV" teams taken into consideration.
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Post by STPickrell » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:50 pm

Why not make it 'anyone who hasn't already qualified for nationals' (akin to the Cinderella bracket from Patriot Games and DACQ Weekend of Quizbowl).

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Post by jbarnes112358 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:11 pm

STPickrell wrote:Why not make it 'anyone who hasn't already qualified for nationals' (akin to the Cinderella bracket from Patriot Games and DACQ Weekend of Quizbowl).
I like that idea. But, then do you disqualify a team like Collegiate who qualified for HSNCT by finishing second at PAQT, but who may still be seeking PACE NSC qualification? And for that matter, are we going to try to make this a PACE qualifying event?

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Post by wowitsquinthaha » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:35 am

Well, by the old system, Collegiate wouldn't be in anyway because they've beaten Maggie B.

Also, Colleigate has already qualified for PACE because of their second place finish at Cave Spring.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:36 pm

jbarnes112358 wrote:
STPickrell wrote:Why not make it 'anyone who hasn't already qualified for nationals' (akin to the Cinderella bracket from Patriot Games and DACQ Weekend of Quizbowl).
And for that matter, are we going to try to make this a PACE qualifying event?
Greg actually suggested seeking PACE affiliation to attract the B and C Teams of a lot of the DC/Maryland teams. While the PPG system Quint suggested may be a good idea, we'd have to take comparative difficulty of questions into account, so that remains subjective. Personally, I think those teams who only attend GSAC, VHSL competitions, and the Battle of the Brains TV show sould definitely qualify for this. Those who haven't qualified for nationals might be a decent standard for everyone else but we should consider as many options as we can. Whether or not this event will even take place this season is still debatable.
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Post by ieppler » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:33 pm

GDS B made the playoffs at GSAC, but the team is made up of freshmen, sophomores, and new players. I don't think that they could beat RM B on a regular basis. Would GDS B be eligible? If it is, GDS would probably bring a team or two and I might come and read or something. Also, would this tournament be open to middle school players?
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:36 pm

They should be eligible. We don't have a set standard just yet, but if they're all newer players they should qualify on whatever system we go with. I also see no problem with allowing middle school players, but Cameron should probably have the final say on that. Usually he reads this forum fairly regularly; he should (hopefully) respond soon. There's a major science project due this Mon/Tues for us MLWGS sophomores, however, so I don't know how much free time he'll have.
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Post by jbarnes112358 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:39 pm

wowitsquinthaha wrote:Well, by the old system, Collegiate wouldn't be in anyway because they've beaten Maggie B.

Also, Colleigate has already qualified for PACE because of their second place finish at Cave Spring.
Oh yeah. they did, didn't they? :oops:

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:41 pm

jbarnes112358 wrote:
wowitsquinthaha wrote:Well, by the old system, Collegiate wouldn't be in anyway because they've beaten Maggie B.

Also, Colleigate has already qualified for PACE because of their second place finish at Cave Spring.
Oh yeah. they did, didn't they? :oops:
Good job, Dr. Barnes. I wouldn't mention this to your wife if I were you.
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Post by TheNuttyHopper » Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:24 am

Would anyone who is a freshman or sophomore be eligible, regardless of skill and/or performance this year?
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:20 am

That's were things become complicated, because last year we had a freshman who probably would not be eligible for this and this year about half of our sophomores wouldn't be... We'll come up with a qualification system soon, hopefully.
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Post by wowitsquinthaha » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:27 pm

Alex Nutman is not welcome at any of our tournaments. ever. period. never. never ever. never ever never ever never never never ever never ever never. never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever. :lol:

EDIT: just kidding
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Post by jbarnes112358 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:15 pm

How about using Byko's rankings as a screen. Open the tournament to any team outside the top 50, for example.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:20 pm

Those rankings at this point are highly variable, although I think that is an interesting way to look at it. In Missouri there's a JV tournament that uses the basic rule "freshmen, sophomores, and juniors can play as long as they have not played a significant amount of varsity competition." It leaves wiggle room and a lot of trust up to the coaches, but if everyone were to follow it I think that would be a good rule for all JV tournaments. Maybe you could do something like that?
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Post by TheNuttyHopper » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:35 pm

"freshmen, sophomores, and juniors can play as long as they have not played a significant amount of varsity competition."
The problem with this is that there is a lack of JV tournaments in the MD/DC/VA area, so almost everyone who plays on any team on a regular basis has "played a significant amount of varsity competition."
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Post by jbarnes112358 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:40 pm

One problem is that Virginia and neighboring areas do not have JV tournaments as such. So, this is sort of a novel concept for us. Maybe the closest thing to a JV-style tournament around here would be NAQT A-level tournaments. But, these don't usually restrict attendance in any way.

At our regular GSAC tournament we have been running a two-tiered playoff system, which works pretty well, but some of the scores can be on the low side for the more novice teams.

If this proposed tournament were to happen it would probably be relatively late in the spring. Most of the teams in our target audience would not be preparing for nationals but would still be getting valuable competition experience on quality questions (hopefully).

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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:25 am

Deesy Does It wrote:Those rankings at this point are highly variable, although I think that is an interesting way to look at it. In Missouri there's a JV tournament that uses the basic rule "freshmen, sophomores, and juniors can play as long as they have not played a significant amount of varsity competition." It leaves wiggle room and a lot of trust up to the coaches, but if everyone were to follow it I think that would be a good rule for all JV tournaments. Maybe you could do something like that?
Yeah generally I never like sending the message "hey if you're a bad team, come play in this tournament/division," so I don't like the idea of a comparative analysis of teams that try to register to determine whether they're in. I like Charlie's idea except that I would maybe specifically say those eligible include "Freshmen, Sophomores, and Juniors who are in their first or second year of competition" (maybe specify further "in tournaments besides VHSL/BoB/It's Ac"). This is similar to most definitions of Division II in collegiate tournaments (besides NAQT).
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:34 pm

Zip Zap Rap Pants wrote:Yeah generally I never like sending the message "hey if you're a bad team, come play in this tournament/division," so I don't like the idea of a comparative analysis of teams that try to register to determine whether they're in. I like Charlie's idea except that I would maybe specifically say those eligible include "Freshmen, Sophomores, and Juniors who are in their first or second year of competition" (maybe specify further "in tournaments besides VHSL/BoB/It's Ac"). This is similar to most definitions of Division II in collegiate tournaments (besides NAQT).
That seems like one of the more reasonable ideas I've heard so far.
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Post by jbarnes112358 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:35 pm

Zip Zap Rap Pants wrote:
Yeah generally I never like sending the message "hey if you're a bad team, come play in this tournament/division," so I don't like the idea of a comparative analysis of teams that try to register to determine whether they're in. I like Charlie's idea except that I would maybe specifically say those eligible include "Freshmen, Sophomores, and Juniors who are in their first or second year of competition" (maybe specify further "in tournaments besides VHSL/BoB/It's Ac"). This is similar to most definitions of Division II in collegiate tournaments (besides NAQT).
That sounds like a pretty good idea. I don't want the message to be "You're bad so come play in our tournament." It should be a more positive message like "If you are a team that is looking to gain valuable experience, come play in our tournament against teams at a similar level of of development, and with quality questions that will help less experienced players to build their knowledge base." (or whatever)

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:40 pm

jbarnes112358 wrote:
That sounds like a pretty good idea. I don't want the message to be "You're bad so come play in our tournament." It should be a more positive message like "If you are a team that is looking to gain valuable experience, come play in our tournament against teams at a similar level of of development, and with quality questions that will help less experienced players to build their knowledge base." (or whatever)
Well-phrased, Dr. B. We've been trying to come up with something tactful like that...
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Post by aestheteboy » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:39 pm

MLWGS-Gir wrote:"Freshmen, Sophomores, and Juniors who are in their first or second year of competition" (maybe specify further "in tournaments besides VHSL/BoB/It's Ac").
I only went to like 2 tournaments and one nationals my freshman year so can you grant me an exception and let me in? (requesting a response from Quint).
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Post by ieppler » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:19 am

Quint, GDS A is now 51 in the Byko rankings. I expect you to read for me, not Daichi.
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:37 am

While we're at it Quint, Mark and I should be considered eligible JV players in exchange for me surrendering the rights to my CD to you, k thx
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:19 pm

jbarnes112358 wrote:How about using Byko's rankings as a screen. Open the tournament to any team outside the top 50, for example.
Whatever system we go with, it definitely will not be based on the Byko rankings. Gov B went up 134 slots after defeating Gonzaga (#274 def #18 = lulz); it's too variable. More information should be available after exams end next Tuesday and we can really start serious work on making this tournament happen. Thanks for your patience and input, everyone.
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Post by wowitsquinthaha » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:47 pm

how about I am t3h ultimate decid0r and I get to choose who goes in and who doesnt...

EDIT: matt youre out. mark can come.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:09 am

Random update!
Bassett High School (SW VA) is the first school to officially express interest in this tournament.

Also, as work on our questions progresses, I'd like to clarify my "A-level-ish" statement above. The difficulty level will definitely be below that of GSAC and is probably comparable to VHSL/BoB with slightly different structure... We'll try to test them on our freshies to make sure our definitions of "easy" aren't too skewed... Dr. B. has expressed concern about this so I thought I would clarify in case anyone else was wondering.

BTW we will absolutely NOT be running this tournament on the same day as VCU since they're about five minutes from us (so if Matt Weiner & co could settle on a date or date range soon that would be awesome, as we're pretty much in limbo until then). Also, does anyone know if UMD is hosting a spring tournament this season? That tournament also took place within our target range last year. Our school calendar is filling up and we'll likely need administrative approval ASAP. Thanks!
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Post by Matt Weiner » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:15 am

I'm talking to UVa about their tournament being moved to April 12 and thus doing the VCU tournament on April 19. This is tentative so hold on to your hats for now.

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Post by The Atom Strikes! » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:17 am

Matt Weiner wrote:I'm talking to UVa about their tournament being moved to April 12 and thus doing the VCU tournament on April 19. This is tentative so hold on to your hats for now.
It looks like RM's tournament will be on the 19th, which would probably cut into your attendance if you held it on that date.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:31 am

SwissBoy wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:I'm talking to UVa about their tournament being moved to April 12 and thus doing the VCU tournament on April 19. This is tentative so hold on to your hats for now.
It looks like RM's tournament will be on the 19th, which would probably cut into your attendance if you held it on that date.
Would that be NAQT States? Because they were talking about moving that to 2/23 to cover the question fiasco at the Cav Open and Gov can't go to RM if it's the same day as states. Also, RM has settled on a likely date 7 or 8 times now. So, basically no one really knows for sure what's going on? Always a fun situation. We'll most likely shoot for the first weekend in May, although a lot of discussion has to take place before that's settled.

Edit: Regardless of whether RM stays on the 19th, we definitely would not be able to use that date anyway since our school musical is that weekend.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:41 pm

The latest suggestion for qualifying for this tournament is: teams consisting of players that have attended no more than 3 tournaments outside of VHSL/Battle of the Brains/It's Ac.

Also, due to our school calendar, if this event does eventually take place, it will most likely be May 10. Please note that this is pending discussion and our ability to finish writing it...
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Post by TheNuttyHopper » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:32 am

My problem with this is that there are plenty of players at my school who are really inexperienced but have attended many tournaments playing on a B team that 95% of the time goes 2-4 or equivalent.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:55 pm

TheNuttyHopper wrote:My problem with this is that there are plenty of players at my school who are really inexperienced but have attended many tournaments playing on a B team that 95% of the time goes 2-4 or equivalent.
Interesting. We may end up having to do some case-by-case basis stat research....we've still got a lot to work out.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:00 pm

Two teams have now expressed interest. Hopefully this list will grow. Edit: And it has! Yay!

Bassett High School
Georgetown Day School
Gonzaga
James Monroe
Meadowbrook High School
Seton Hall
Trinity Episcopal School
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Post by intothenegs » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:37 pm

Depending on the date, James Monroe would be interested in coming with 1-2 teams.

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Post by ieppler » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:51 pm

GDS is interested in bringing somewhere between 1 and 5+ (!) teams, with middle school players likely included.

EDIT: It would help if I included "teams."

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Post by STPickrell » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:28 am

Have we decided upon a date that I can send to the VHSL?

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:27 pm

STPickrell wrote:Have we decided upon a date that I can send to the VHSL?
Not yet. I'll bring it up at practice tomorrow and see if we can't ge that ironed out soon. Our window is basically April 26-May 10, though.
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Seton Hall may be interested ...

Post by SHP Pirate » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:07 pm

Seton Hall would be interested once you have established a date. I would love to bring my younger team members to a JV tournament. Let me know the final details once you have made a decision.

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:02 pm

April 26 is now our tentative date, as the other two weekends our school is available are in the middle of AP Exams.
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Post by STPickrell » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:27 pm

Can someone email me with the contact person for this tournament (is it gscadirector at hotmail dot com again) and the exact standards of eligibility? Thanks.

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:15 pm

We don't have exact eligibility standards yet...and we may not end up using them. Certain teams who should know who they are know that this is not the right sort of tournament for them, especially as they prepare for nationals.

As for a contact person, Anant has been forwarding all email received at the gsacdirector address to me as he is still in control of that address but has not had anything to do with this, and my co-conspirator has gotten into a nasty habit of not checking his email.

I can be reached at SeaAngel147 at aol dot com. However, all information is being posted here as soon as it is decided. Since we aren't going to a tournament this weekend hopefully eligibility can be discussed at Friday's practice.
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Post by STPickrell » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:55 am

OK. Just let me know when there's something finalized I can post on the VHSL website. Thanks.

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Post by Howard » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:00 pm

MLWGS-Gir wrote:We don't have exact eligibility standards yet...and we may not end up using them. Certain teams who should know who they are know that this is not the right sort of tournament for them, especially as they prepare for nationals.
One of the reasons I've been refraining from expressing interest is that I don't know the criteria. I'd look to bring a team, as long as I could get enough players together that meet your criteria. Without said criteria, I'm left wondering whether it's approprate to bring certain of my players. There are some who I think could benefit greatly from this sort of tournament, but I also don't want to violate the spirit of the tournament. I'd be likely to allow a player to participate than not, but I'm not sure where you'd stand in this scenario.

For what it's worth, I'd recommend some sort of official criteria just to prevent silly arguments at the tournament. Your criteria could be any number of things already discussed, or even any team that hasn't yet qualified for a national tournament.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:06 pm

Howard wrote:
MLWGS-Gir wrote:We don't have exact eligibility standards yet...and we may not end up using them. Certain teams who should know who they are know that this is not the right sort of tournament for them, especially as they prepare for nationals.
or even any team that hasn't yet qualified for a national tournament.
That would most likely be the easiest/fairest thing to do. I'll do my best to get eligibility brought up at tomorrow's practice.
Sam (Sarah Angelo) Luongo,
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:26 pm

Okay! Massive update!

We now have our building reserved for April 26, so as long as our questions get written (and there are a few of us who will do it ourselves if it means getting it done), this event is on.

As for eligibility, the decision that was reached today is that players who were not on a team that has qualified for a national tournament this season are eligible. However our coach has suggested only enforcing that rule on juniors and seniors and opening the tournament to freshmen and sophomores. Thoughts?
Edit: We will also be allowing middle school players.

Regarding difficulty level, we are striving for A-Level/VHSL level but cannot promise it will be exact. We'll be testing these questions on our freshmen. There may end up being some questions that are "learning experiences," but for young teams looking to compete at other tournaments outside of VHSL/TV show, that may be beneficial.

Also, some notes on how we roll at MLWGS for those of you who don't know us.
We'll have seven rounds of 20TU/20B questions, bouncebacks on TU but not B. No powers, standard neg rules.
We do not practice recognition. You do not need name/team signs. If you're really not used to playing without recognition, talk to your moderator and ask them to point.
Right now it has not been settled how many prelim/play-off rounds we'll have. I'd like to try and get everyone 7 games. We will most likely have a consolation bracket that eventually turns into a sort of Swiss-paired type deal if we can work it out.
There will be no computational math at this tournament, although there may be theoretical math.
If you have any questions feel free to post them. I'll address them as soon as possible.
Last edited by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light on Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sam (Sarah Angelo) Luongo,
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Post by Gonzagapuma1 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:18 pm

MLWGS-Gir wrote: As for eligibility, the decision that was reached today is that players who were not on a team that has qualified for a national tournament this season are eligible. However our coach has suggested only enforcing that rule on juniors and seniors and opening the tournament to freshmen and sophomores. Thoughts?
That sounds good. Gonzaga is interestedi in sending a team.
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Howard
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Post by Howard » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:41 pm

MLWGS-Gir wrote:As for eligibility, the decision that was reached today is that players who were not on a team that has qualified for a national tournament this season are eligible. However our coach has suggested only enforcing that rule on juniors and seniors and opening the tournament to freshmen and sophomores. Thoughts?
Edit: We will also be allowing middle school players.
Both sound like good addenda. The first probably prevents unfairly punishing underclasspeople.
John Gilbert
Coach, Howard High School Academic Team
Ellicott City, MD

"John Gilbert is a quiz bowl god" -- leftsaidfred

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