PHSAT XVI (10/11/08) at Princeton University (Princeton, NJ)

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sun May 04, 2008 1:21 am

Princeton College Bowl is happy to announce its 16th annual High School Academic Tournament. It will (tentatively) be held on Saturday, October 11th, 2008 at Princeton University.

I will post the IS set we will be using once NAQT gets back to me on that.

This will be the second HS tournament that I have been a TD for, and last year's TD, Eric Cohen, will be assisting me this year. More details will be posted later.

Thanks,
Kunle Demuren
Vice President, Princeton College Bowl

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sun May 04, 2008 3:16 am

Bloomfield will be coming. It's just a matter of finding a new advisor.

The Infanta · Post by **The Infanta** » Sun May 04, 2008 10:22 pm

We'll probably be there.

Ondes Martenot · Post by **Ondes Martenot** » Mon May 05, 2008 4:58 pm

Even though i'll be in college then, I can guarantee a Bergen delegation

btressler · Post by **btressler** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:23 pm

To the TJ people:

Will your fall tournament be this weekend again this year? (It is Columbus Day weekend.)

The overlap between the tournaments is probably just 3-5 schools, but I thought I would just check.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Tue May 13, 2008 12:33 am

We will be using IS-77.

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Thu May 29, 2008 12:10 am

Caesar Rodney may travel for this, considering the good things we heard about the tournament. Keep us posted.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:31 pm

Registration:

We will accept the first 56 teams to register, with a 3 team per school limit. Any school wishing to register more than 4 teams will have any team after the third placed on a waiting list. If there is enough demand, we will expand the tournament field to 64 teams.

Fees will be:
$100 for the first team from a school.
$80 for each additional team
-$10 Discount per Buzzer System
+$10 Late fee for registration after October 4

There is a maximum discount of $50 per school. Travel discounts will be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Please e-mail kdemuren (at) princeton.edu for registration and/or any questions. We plan on starting by 9 AM on the 11th.

Hope to see you all there,

Kunle Demuren
Vice President, Princeton College Bowl

Golran · Post by **Golran** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:50 pm

A Ward Melville Team is looking into attending, they should be posting here soon, otherwise will e-mail the TD if interested.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:11 pm

Field update:

Kellenberg (2)
E Brunswick (2)
State College (2)
St. Peter's Prep (2)
Millburn (3?)
Bensalem (1-2)

Get those registrations in!

-Kunle

NLesniak · Post by **NLesniak** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:01 pm

Is there any way you can send me more info on this tournament? JFK (Iselin) would possibly like to come.

Thanks.

Nichole Lesniak
[email protected]

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:25 pm

I now have registration forms for teams to fill out, and if I don't have a registration form either by e-mail or regular mail by midnight on October 4, teams will pay a $10 late fee. I have already e-mailed any team that expressed interest before, but if you haven't already talked to me about the tournament and you would like to attend, now is the time to let me know so I can get that form out to you.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:02 pm

Field update:

Officially registered:
Colonia (1)
St. Andrew's (Ridgeland, MS) (1)
St. Peter's Prep (2)
JFK (Iselin, NJ) (1)
State College (2)
High Technology (1)
Chatham (1)

Interested:
Bensalem (1)
Millburn (3)
East Brunswick (2)
Caesar Rodney (1-2?)
Verona
Henderson
Georgetown Day
Bloomfield

Thanks to those who have already registered, and if you are interested or have already expressed interest, get those registrations in.

EDIT: Update with received registrations and interest. (again)

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:56 pm

Send the form to me.

[email protected]

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:27 pm

Caesar Rodney HS will be bringing at least 1 team, but no more than 2.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:08 pm

Just a reminder: We are using the same set as RM on 9/20, so you obviously can't attend both.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:26 pm

Field update:

Officially registered:
Colonia (1)
St. Andrew's (Ridgeland, MS) (1)
St. Peter's Prep (2)
JFK (Iselin, NJ) (1)
State College (2)
High Technology (1)
Chatham (1)
North Shore (2)
Pingry (3)
Caesar Rodney (2)
Millburn (3)

Interested:
Bensalem (1)
East Brunswick (2)
Verona
Henderson
St. Joseph's (Metuchen, NJ)
Bloomfield

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:33 pm

Bloomfield is definitely coming with 2 teams.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:39 am

Only two weeks left!

Field update:

Registered:
Bloomfield (2)
Caesar Rodney (2)
Chatham (2)
Colonia (1)
East Brunswick (2)
Freedom (1)
Half Hollow Hills W (2)
High Technology (1)
JFK (Iselin, NJ) (1)
Millburn (3)
North Shore (2)
Pingry (3)
Ranney (2)
St. Andrew's (Ridgeland, MS) (1)
St. Joseph's (Metuchen, NJ) (2)
St. Peter's Prep (2)
Seton Hall Prep (3)
State College (2)
Stuyvesant (2)

Interested:
Lawrenceville (2-3)
Archbishop Spalding
Henderson
Moravian

EDIT: updated field

SHP Pirate · Post by **SHP Pirate** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:59 pm

Seton Hall Prep will be attending. (Three teams for sure.) I will be sending in the registration on Monday.

rsingh056 · Post by **rsingh056** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:56 am

Lawrenceville is most likely going to be attending. We'll be turning our registration shortly, and will most likely send 2-3 teams.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:08 pm

Field updated above, and remember, if I don't receive your registration by Saturday, there is a $10 late fee.

gabjoh · Post by **gabjoh** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:44 pm

Bergen County Academies will be sending two or three teams. Sorry for the late notice.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:54 am

Final field update (I hope):

Archbishop Spalding (2)
Bergen (3)
Bloomfield (2)
Caesar Rodney (1)
Chatham (2)
Colonia (1)
East Brunswick (2)
Freedom (1)
Half Hollow Hills W (2)
High Technology (1)
JFK (Iselin, NJ) (1)
Lawrenceville (2)
Livingston (2)
Millburn (3)
Moravian (1)
North Shore (2)
Pennsbury (2)
Pingry (3)
Ranney (1)
St. Andrew's (Ridgeland, MS) (1)
St. Joseph's (Metuchen, NJ) (2)
St. Peter's Prep (2)
Seton Hall Prep (2)
State College (2)
Stuyvesant (2)
White Plains (3)

For all you astute mathematicians out there, this comes out to 48 teams, which is quite an optimal number in terms of bracketing, so if you are planning to bring less or more teams than the stated number here, please let us know ASAP. Teams can still register, if I can find space to plug you in and not destroy the system.

EDIT: now up to 50... and back to 48 again.

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:58 am

Is it safe to assumed 7 rounds of prelim matches? And 6 divisions of 8 teams? Or 5 Prelims, and 8 divisions of 6.

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:37 am

Seconding Nick's questions.

Also, consolation rounds? With just one team from CR, we would love to play some more games if we don't qualify for the playoffs.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:40 pm

My idea is to have 6 brackets of 8 for the prelims, yes. Consolation rounds will depend on if I have enough people stick around after lunch to staff them (so don't count on it).

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:12 pm

Oh, that stinks. Heck, i'll read for matches if that means more teams get to play.

SHP Pirate · Post by **SHP Pirate** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:28 pm

Just a quick question ... is Caesar Rodney playing at Princeton, TJ, or both? I see that they are registered for both tournaments.
Just wondering ...

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:35 pm

SHP Pirate wrote:Just a quick question ... is Caesar Rodney playing at Princeton, TJ, or both? I see that they are registered for both tournaments.
Just wondering ...

Very.. good... question.

I can't believe it took this long for someone to catch this.

Wall of Ham · Post by **Wall of Ham** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:35 pm

They are on different days and using different sets. Whats wrong with coming to both?

SHP Pirate · Post by **SHP Pirate** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:17 pm

Mea culpa! I had the TJ tournament on 10/11 ... not 10/18!

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:08 pm

11 != 18 :)

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:31 pm

Up to 50 teams now... so the jamming of a square peg into a round hole that I did will only hold up if everyone shows up. Please let me know if there any changes!

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:51 pm

Good luck to all attending tomorrow!

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:21 pm

...and back to 48.

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:31 pm

When I left, State College A was the #1 Playoff team, HHHW #2, Bergen #3.

Anyways, few gripes about the tournament. First off time. The preliminaries did not start until about 10AM because of logistics issues with readers and such, so that already got the tournament off to a bad start. By the time the preliminaries were done, it was already 4PM when the playoffs were announced, which I thought was ridiculous. Compound this with the fact that a playoff team, Caesar Rodney, had to leave early, and that made it worse. Ever more, Princeton decided NOT to replace the missing Caesar team in the playoffs, so some playoff team got an automatic bye into the second round.

Next, the missing team. While this may sound like whining and being bitter, I still need to say it. The way the missing Saint Peter's team was handled was completely unfair. Because they never showed up, teams in my bracket only got six games. While this was good for Moravian and Half Hollow Hills, it ruined our chances at playoffs because in the end we finished the preliminaries with a 4-2 record. Princeton decided to choose the next 4 playoff teams by winning percentage (After the top 2 teams in each bracket) so because we were only 4-2, and did not even have the chance to be 5-2, we were pretty much doomed to not make the playoffs. While I know some people will say "Then you should have finished 2nd or 1st," I know, this would be avoided if we did that. However, then another team is in our shoes and screwed over not because they did not do well enough, but because a team decided not to show up and the TD decided not to account for that. In my opinion, the situation was mishandled, but its over now and there's no use in keeping it with me. However, I felt it needed to be said.

Some personal nuances, some of the readers we hard to understand and did not dictate well when trying to read fast (This is aimed at the reader in McCosh 66 if my memory is right). And, while not having an effect on the match at all as we screwed ourselves over in our comeback against Moravian, I don't really see how it is fair at all to give a team three prompts on a bonus (let alone tossup) when their answers never even mentioned the key word required for the answer. One should be it, and two is pushing it, in the end didn't matter but something to keep in mind. Lastly, I really don't see a reason to not be keeping individual stats, especially when the NAQT sheet provides for that. It would make gauging play and level of execution from this tournament so much better. It would also give me a chance to see who did well on y B team and may deserve a move up, but alas I must still go through sheer judgment.

Overall, while I enjoyed the tournament, it could have been run a lot better and in the end bad logistics caused preliminaries to last six hours and the tournament to start an hour late. That really shouldn't happen, especially since the late end to prelims meant some teams (Caesar Rodney) had to leave early and vacate playoff spots. There will hopefully be more info from some of the playoff teams when one of them gets on. And hopefully stats are posted this year unlike last.

Mechanical Beasts · Post by **Mechanical Beasts** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:47 pm

TheCzarMan wrote:Princeton decided to choose the next 4 playoff teams by winning percentage (After the top 2 teams in each bracket) so because we were only 4-2, and did not even have the chance to be 5-2, we were pretty much doomed to not make the playoffs.

So, like, wasn't choosing those next four teams essentially an exercise in picking the four third-place teams with the best records? How can that possibly be a good idea
1) ever;
2) when the bracket sizes differ, making teams with the same number of losses have different winning percentages

EDIT: I just realized that you could, in fact, pick a fourth place from one of the brackets in favor of a third place from another, if by some chance you have a bunch of brackets where everyone in places 3-6 is 0.500 and another that just counts from eight wins down to one.

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:13 pm

everyday847 wrote:
TheCzarMan wrote:Princeton decided to choose the next 4 playoff teams by winning percentage (After the top 2 teams in each bracket) so because we were only 4-2, and did not even have the chance to be 5-2, we were pretty much doomed to not make the playoffs.
So, like, wasn't choosing those next four teams essentially an exercise in picking the four third-place teams with the best records? How can that possibly be a good idea
1) ever;
2) when the bracket sizes differ, making teams with the same number of losses have different winning percentages

EDIT: I just realized that you could, in fact, pick a fourth place from one of the brackets in favor of a third place from another, if by some chance you have a bunch of brackets where everyone in places 3-6 is 0.500 and another that just counts from eight wins down to one.

True, but I remember one of the TD's telling everyone that if you had 5 wins, you were in the playoffs, leading me to my line of thinking.

Mechanical Beasts · Post by **Mechanical Beasts** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:30 pm

TheCzarMan wrote:True, but I remember one of the TD's telling everyone that if you had 5 wins, you were in the playoffs, leading me to my line of thinking.

Yeah, I'm not saying "this cannot be!"--rather, I'm reinforcing your reasoning that "this cannot possibly be wise."

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:32 pm

everyday847 wrote:
TheCzarMan wrote:True, but I remember one of the TD's telling everyone that if you had 5 wins, you were in the playoffs, leading me to my line of thinking.
Yeah, I'm not saying "this cannot be!"--rather, I'm reinforcing your reasoning that "this cannot possibly be wise."

Ah, ok. I was thinking your edit meant to say "Possibly another division had multiple teams at 5-2 anyways" or something along those lines.

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:40 pm

TheCzarMan wrote:Compound this with the fact that a playoff team, Caesar Rodney, had to leave early, and that made it worse. Ever more, Princeton decided NOT to replace the missing Caesar team in the playoffs, so some playoff team got an automatic bye into the second round.

Dude, we didn't leave, i don't know why everyone thought we did. We just went straight to our room, then played a good game.

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:47 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
TheCzarMan wrote:Compound this with the fact that a playoff team, Caesar Rodney, had to leave early, and that made it worse. Ever more, Princeton decided NOT to replace the missing Caesar team in the playoffs, so some playoff team got an automatic bye into the second round.
Dude, we didn't leave, i don't know why everyone thought we did. We just went straight to our room, then played a good game.

Then I was mistaken. I just remember you telling me about how you had to be back by 6:30, and since I didn't see you in the auditorium assumed you had left early to get back in time. My bad.

Down and out in Quintana Roo · Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:51 pm

Double post FTW(?)

Anyway, i liked the tournament. I thought, yeah sure, things took a while to get kicked off... whatever... not a big deal. Our team was in a great mood, it was a beautiful day, and it being a Saturday, we didn't mind getting home late (as it was, we went out to eat anyway and everyone didn't get dropped off til 9pm).

So, it was great to see all these Jersey/NY teams that we rarely see down "south" where we are (Delaware?) and all. Hi to Bloomfield, HHHW A, Pingry B, Chatham B, and Moravian... all great kids with good teams that i absolutely loved reading to. Even though of course HHHW and Moravian were a cut above, i saw a lot of potential on those other teams, and Bloomfield in particular is just a small step away. It was a blast in McCosh 64. You guys made it all a pleasure for me and i thoroughly enjoyed my day a lot. Hopefully by my reading (and general coolness) i've begun to shake my "terrible"-ness. Five schools down and 8,000 to go.

As for our team, we had a great time and did very well and were very pleased with our performance. We did indeed lose to HHHW A in the first playoff game by kinda large margin (but were winning around halftime), but they're a great team and knew it would be a tough game. They played great. And from what i heard, State College is truly a force. Hopefully we can see all the results soon because i'm very curious.

Anyway, all in all, yes there were little snafus, and honestly i don't know how to answer Nick's concerns (i both agree and disagree and had a brief conversation with Bloomfield about it this afternoon)... but hey, we got to play good quizbowl with good questions and (generally) good moderators. You can't complain (too much) about that.

TheCzarMan · Post by **TheCzarMan** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:00 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Double post FTW(?)

Anyway, i liked the tournament. I thought, yeah sure, things took a while to get kicked off... whatever... not a big deal. Our team was in a great mood, it was a beautiful day, and it being a Saturday, we didn't mind getting home late (as it was, we went out to eat anyway and everyone didn't get dropped off til 9pm).

So, it was great to see all these Jersey/NY teams that we rarely see down "south" where we are (Delaware?) and all. Hi to Bloomfield, HHHW A, Pingry B, Chatham B, and Moravian... all great kids with good teams that i absolutely loved reading to. Even though of course HHHW and Moravian were a cut above, i saw a lot of potential on those other teams, and Bloomfield in particular is just a small step away. It was a blast in McCosh 64. You guys made it all a pleasure for me and i thoroughly enjoyed my day a lot. Hopefully by my reading (and general coolness) i've begun to shake my "terrible"-ness. Five schools down and 8,000 to go.

As for our team, we had a great time and did very well and were very pleased with our performance. We did indeed lose to HHHW A in the first playoff game by kinda large margin (but were winning around halftime), but they're a great team and knew it would be a tough game. They played great. And from what i heard, State College is truly a force. Hopefully we can see all the results soon because i'm very curious.

Anyway, all in all, yes there were little snafus, and honestly i don't know how to answer Nick's concerns (i both agree and disagree and had a brief conversation with Bloomfield about it this afternoon)... but hey, we got to play good quizbowl with good questions and (generally) good moderators. You can't complain (too much) about that.

I'd say that step is actually assembling a team. As of now, looking at personal stats, I answered well above 90% of my teams tossups. And I am nowhere near an individual force to do that kind of carrying, I wish I could be a Dees, but I'm not and know my role. I am actively seeking a compliment to what I know, specifically science and the deeper literature questions. Hopefully that gets resolved before it is too late.

I could see how you could disagree with some of my statements, and to myself I wondered if I should make the post, as I didn't want to be harsh. But, given Princeton's history, how some of these things happened LAST YEAR, and their behavior as of late in the quizbowl community as a whole, I felt their faults needed to be stated and given out. And to sort of bookend my ranting, When we pay around $100 dollars per team for a tournament, and then don't get team OR individual stats being tracked, I will be angry, as it's almost expected now. I'm extra disappointed as it makes my job of trying to assemble a team around me all that much more tough.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:22 pm

Quick post: Bergen A beat Stuyvesant A in the final, 430-30, and Half Hollow Hills West A beat East Brunswick A in the third place game. More later.

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:39 pm

A few things:

1) Stats: We do have team stats, and we will try to get those posted. As for individual stats, this tournament would still be going now if we had to compile them. Even as someone who enjoyed winning scoring and neg awards in high school, I don't see much point, especially if you are keeping track on your own.

2) Delays: Our fault. I thought we had secured enough moderators, but people flaked out/didn't show up, and so that issue was compounded.

3) Playoffs: At least for Bloomfield, there was no legitimate measure that we could have done the playoffs by that would have resulted in them making them. They would had to have well outperformed their average in the game that became a bye to make it. Anyway, I think that the way we did it was the best we could manage, since I wasn't going to give 23 teams a free win. In fact, sorting by winning pct yields the same 16 playoff teams, and only by ppg would there have been one switch. Basically, giving a free win would have been very arbitrary and unfair, since the closeness in the two teams that would have been switched is such that had an actual game have been played, ppg might have yielded the same 16 teams. Obviously, I wouldn't want to do playoffs purely on ppg, but you get my point. The teams that were in the playoffs belonged there.

4) Our "reputation": I'm a sophomore, and had nothing to do with that "reputation", so please don't conflate things that I had no control over on me.

That being said, I apologize for all of our logistical snafus, and I hope everyone enjoyed themselves and will come back next year!

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:26 pm

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... 0FlAaKhyWQ

Stats are at this link. A few explanations:

1 = win for that round
0 = loss for that round
The scores are listed by team, by round. The schedule is in the second sheet.

Mechanical Beasts · Post by **Mechanical Beasts** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:30 pm

Is there no data about what happened in the playoffs?

olsb25 · Post by **olsb25** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:55 pm

Round of 16:
State College A over Freedom
HHH W A over Caesar Rodney
Bergen A over Seton Hall A
East Brunswick A over Lawrenceville A
Livingston A over Millburn A
St. Joseph's A over Bergen C
Stuyvesant A over State College B
Moravian over Pingry A

Quarterfinals:
Stuyvesant A over State College A
HHH W A over Moravian
East Brunswick A over Livingston A
Bergen A over St. Joseph's A

Semifinals:
Stuyvesant A over East Brunswick A
Bergen A over HHH W A

Finals:
Bergen A over Stuyvesant A

No scores... those are lost to posterity.