2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge: Illinois wins!

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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

To John Brown -
I have absolutely no interest in attending the PAC again because I inherently am bothered by the format that seems to go out of its way to force you to buzzer race and not actually demonstrate depth. The rest of the Missouri team just kind of fell apart once I made it very clear to my coach (also Missouri's Panasonic coach for decades) that I was under no circumstances going because he hadn't really gotten in contact with anyone about being on the team and whatnot.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by wowitsquinthaha »

GO GUAM GO!
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stained Diviner »

The Maryland score is a tournament record. The old record was 487 by Illinois in 2006.

Some of the semi matchups:
Illinois vs Ohio vs Pennsylvania
Oklahoma vs South Carolina vs Vermont
Kentucky vs Maryland
Each of the rooms will end up with about five teams after tomorrow's winners get added in.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

Or the Missou team, even.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Byko »

Deesy Does It wrote:The rest of the Missouri team just kind of fell apart once I made it very clear to my coach (also Missouri's Panasonic coach for decades) that I was under no circumstances going because he hadn't really gotten in contact with anyone about being on the team and whatnot.
When I spoke to Mr. Allen at PACE, he had what, Ifeel, was a good reason for not really organizing things. Apparently, the coaches' association did not reimburse him for last year's trip as they should have, and without that, he had no interest in going down there out of his own pocket, which I can't blame him for, regardless of whatever long-distance tournament it would be.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stained Diviner »

Semis:
IL, OH, PA, IA, and TN
SC, OK, CA, VT, and WY
MD, KY, FL, and CO
Two from each room make the Final.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Tegan »

ReinsteinD wrote:Semis:
IL, OH, PA, IA, and TN
SC, OK, CA, VT, and WY
MD, KY, FL, and CO
Two from each room make the Final.
Hmm ..... MD, KY, FL, and CO seem to be in the "Fantasia of Death" ....

SC, OK, CA might be interesting ....

IF (emphasis, if) history is a predictor, IL should have a relatively easy trip to the finals.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by BobGHHS »

Our Semifinal Room:

1st - Illinois
2nd - Tennessee
3rd - Ohio
4th - Pennsylvania
5th - Iowa
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by InfantInnocence »

It was basically just a fight for Illinois' left overs. Not pretty.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by ClemsonQB »

Finalists include:
South Carolina
Illinois
Florida
California
Kentucky
Tennessee
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Momster »

A big THANKS to all of you who have posted results the past couple of days. (I had been waiting anxiously to hear how my team had been doing, between competitions -- now I know that they're done for the day... wish I could have got the "play-by-play.")
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Tegan »

quizbowlabc wrote:Finalists include:
South Carolina
Illinois
Florida
California
Kentucky
Tennessee

WHoahh! Maryland, again!?!! No disrespect .. Florida makes it practically every year because they have great players, great coaches, and a little built in familiarity with the format, and I'm assuming that Kentucky had some good players and coaches coming back from a team that made the finals last year, but after nuking the first round into bolivian, I thought Maryland was on a roll back to the finals.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by BuzzerZen »

Tegan wrote:nuking the first round into bolivian
This is the best malapropism ever created.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by cvdwightw »

What is this so-called California team? Is it Torrey Pines again?

Shows how in the loop I am. My state selects a team to go and I don't even know who it is or how it got picked.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stained Diviner »

Maryland finished two points behind Florida.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Magister Ludi »

This is the second straight year that MD has had a dominating first round permance and then failed to make the finals.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Also, Illinois didn't make the finals that one year when they broke the score-in-a-match record.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by pray for elves »

Who's representing Tennessee at this?

Also, Silberman, you can thank Mike Tyson for that malapropism (sort of).
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Tegan »

DeisEvan wrote:Also, Silberman, you can thank Mike Tyson for that malapropism (sort of).
For outing me, Evan, I will eat your children!
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Tegan »

Looks like Illinois beat Florida by one point in the finals.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by rjaguar3 »

Final places
1. Illinois 186
2. Florida 185
3. South Carolina 165
4. Kentucky 147
5. Tennessee 110
6. California 75

On the final team bonus (I'll describe it later), Illinois scored just 9, but that was just enough to hold off Florida, who got 21.

Full commentary coming soon.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

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DeisEvan wrote:Who's representing Tennessee at this?
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stat Boy »

This is the second straight year that MD has had a dominating first round performance and then failed to make the finals.
False.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Tegan »

Stat Boy wrote:
This is the second straight year that MD has had a dominating first round performance and then failed to make the finals.
False.
Explain please.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by MLaudermith »

rjaguar3 wrote:Final places
1. Illinois 186
2. Florida 185
3. South Carolina 165
4. Kentucky 147
5. Tennessee 110
6. California 75

On the final team bonus (I'll describe it later), Illinois scored just 9, but that was just enough to hold off Florida, who got 21.

Full commentary coming soon.
WOW. :shock:

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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by esoteria »

Stop trolling if you are trolling.

The reason for these anomalies is that national competitions like Panasonic really only scratch the surface of material. For example, there was a question on find the volume of Gabriel's horn...if someone is able to answer this within five seconds of the question, a question is raised -- did the person who answered actually know how to do the indefinite integral, or did the persion merely hear about Gabriel's horn in a calculus class and memorized its area for a unit test? A slightly better question may be finding the integral of an expression such as sec^3(x) dx or e^x sinx dx. While it is possible to memorize the solutions, it is better math just to do the parts, then the algebraic manipulation. There is also a lack of other good mathematics questions, for example imaginary numbers. A quality math question might be "Find ln(-2)." This requires the student to realize that -2 = 0 - 2i = 2 (0 - i) = 2 [cos(pi*i) + i sin(pi*i)] = 2 e ^ pi i, so ln(-2) = ln2 + pi * i + 2*pi*k with k is an element of integers. Another good math question would be to find square roots of imaginary numbers, again using one of Euler's theorems to see that e^(n theta) ^ (1/c) = e^ (n theta / c). However, the questions that seem to be asked are the volumes of interesting shapes that may not actually be able to be built. Granted there were some good questions (for example, the line integral one). It'd be great to see more number theory/tougher geometry (e.g. using good math theorems such as Ceva's, Menelaus's), and material that requires the student to use his/her head for critical thinking rather than for memorization. Another example -- conic sections. Students are being given equations and asked whether or not they are parabolae, hyperbolae, ellipses, or circles; this is simply finding the eccentricity. But of the students who can do this, how many actually understand where it comes from and what it means? Perhaps a better question would be to give students a hairy equation and asking them for the equations that would re-orient coordinate axes to make the situation much easier.

Speaking of material depth, we might as well go into other subjects, such as chemistry/physics. As far as chemistry goes, the problems may also be a bit easier -- mostly limiting reagent, Le Chat's, maybe some colligative properties and atomic trends; all this stuff can be memorized, but I believe that it is far more important to understand where they come from. Students should be able to to more complicated problems, combining math concepts, such as differential equations, with reactions. Or at least some slightly complicated redox reactions that can be solved through inspection. Physics, on the other hand, is slightly dismal. Where is Ampere's Law, or Biot-Savart, or even parallel axis or the shell theorem? These, in my opinion, are far more important than happening to know what colours have the smallest wavelength. That can be found by consulting a chart. The expression for the electric field at a point at a given distance from a charged rod, however, can't be found in charts as easily.

Given, some of the lack of depth can be attributed to the fact that the curriculae in school systems have deteriorated very greatly in the past several years. Math and physics classes have degenerated into lessons in button-punching instead of sitting and having a good think.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stat Boy »

Tegan wrote:Explain please
The 15-or-so-point first round victory last year was hardly dominating
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by AKKOLADE »

esoteria wrote:Stop trolling if you are trolling.
Uh, no one was trolling.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores »

esoteria wrote:-2 = 0 - 2i = 2 (0 - i) = 2 [cos(pi*i) + i sin(pi*i)] = 2 e ^ pi i, so ln(-2) = ln2 + pi * i + 2*pi*k with k is an element of integers.
:w-hat:

Also, who was trolling?
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Auks Ran Ova »

esoteria wrote:Stop trolling if you are trolling.

The reason for these anomalies is that national competitions like Panasonic really only scratch the surface of material. For example, there was a question on find the volume of Gabriel's horn...if someone is able to answer this within five seconds of the question, a question is raised -- did the person who answered actually know how to do the indefinite integral, or did the persion merely hear about Gabriel's horn in a calculus class and memorized its area for a unit test? A slightly better question may be finding the integral of an expression such as sec^3(x) dx or e^x sinx dx. While it is possible to memorize the solutions, it is better math just to do the parts, then the algebraic manipulation. There is also a lack of other good mathematics questions, for example imaginary numbers. A quality math question might be "Find ln(-2)." This requires the student to realize that -2 = 0 - 2i = 2 (0 - i) = 2 [cos(pi*i) + i sin(pi*i)] = 2 e ^ pi i, so ln(-2) = ln2 + pi * i + 2*pi*k with k is an element of integers. Another good math question would be to find square roots of imaginary numbers, again using one of Euler's theorems to see that e^(n theta) ^ (1/c) = e^ (n theta / c). However, the questions that seem to be asked are the volumes of interesting shapes that may not actually be able to be built. Granted there were some good questions (for example, the line integral one). It'd be great to see more number theory/tougher geometry (e.g. using good math theorems such as Ceva's, Menelaus's), and material that requires the student to use his/her head for critical thinking rather than for memorization. Another example -- conic sections. Students are being given equations and asked whether or not they are parabolae, hyperbolae, ellipses, or circles; this is simply finding the eccentricity. But of the students who can do this, how many actually understand where it comes from and what it means? Perhaps a better question would be to give students a hairy equation and asking them for the equations that would re-orient coordinate axes to make the situation much easier.

Speaking of material depth, we might as well go into other subjects, such as chemistry/physics. As far as chemistry goes, the problems may also be a bit easier -- mostly limiting reagent, Le Chat's, maybe some colligative properties and atomic trends; all this stuff can be memorized, but I believe that it is far more important to understand where they come from. Students should be able to to more complicated problems, combining math concepts, such as differential equations, with reactions. Or at least some slightly complicated redox reactions that can be solved through inspection. Physics, on the other hand, is slightly dismal. Where is Ampere's Law, or Biot-Savart, or even parallel axis or the shell theorem? These, in my opinion, are far more important than happening to know what colours have the smallest wavelength. That can be found by consulting a chart. The expression for the electric field at a point at a given distance from a charged rod, however, can't be found in charts as easily.

Given, some of the lack of depth can be attributed to the fact that the curriculae in school systems have deteriorated very greatly in the past several years. Math and physics classes have degenerated into lessons in button-punching instead of sitting and having a good think.
Without getting into too much depth on whether Panasonic contains any good questions at all (and as far as I know they do not): Quizbowl is a game of factual recall and not a chemistry problem set, confirm/deny?
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stained Diviner »

esoteria: Who are you?
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by ClemsonQB »

Ukonvasara wrote:Without getting into too much depth on whether Panasonic contains any good questions at all (and as far as I know they do not): Quizbowl is a game of factual recall and not a chemistry problem set, confirm/deny?
Other than the Map Coloring, Map Pinpointing/Puncturing (with tacks), French movie about Druid rituals and team questions involving the use of microscopes, no, Panasonic does not contain any good questions. :grin:
Last edited by ClemsonQB on Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by First Chairman »

Unless things have changed, the format for Panasonic does allow more time to solve calculation problems or other application-type questions that standard buzzer-centered competitions do not. Now, the math has to be simple enough to do with well within 60 seconds, and they can't have you prove a theorem in the handout rounds... but there is presumably some element of work that could be involved in the questions.

Not saying I admire those questions... I have not been in a while. Otherwise... translation questions... umm...
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Tegan »

quizbowlabc wrote: questions involving the actual use of microscopes
When I heard they had "slide" questions, I was picturing players putting little square slides on a light box to see a picture .... but now I think I understand.

I think I would have preferred to assume otherwise. :roll:
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Dan Greenstein »

So, what were the scores of the games in the second and third semifinals? How did Maryland lose by 2?
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by kcommo »

The score in our semifinal was: South Carolina 249, California 224, Oklahoma 189, Wyoming 180, Vermont 165.

Torrey Pines got off to a great start in the first round anf a half, and while Dorman was able to catch them, it was just enough to hold off Oklahoma (which missed the last question) for second place.

As for the 'team with the math person will win' theory, you guys were just about right. Florida got basically all its tossup points on second-round computational math and science questions. They netted 0 points in the third round (I think they didn't buzz in at all, though it might have been 1/1), but with the disparity on the last worksheet, it was almost enough to win anyway.

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Edited to add: Tennessee is Ezell-Harding like usual.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by ClemsonQB »

My team netted zero questions in round one, one in round two, one in round three and still managed to come in third, enough said about PAC.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

No one broke 200? For comparison,

'07 Illinois - 252
'07 Missouri - 240
'07 Florida - 210
'07 California - 188
1. Illinois - 186
2. Florida -185
3. South Carolina - 165
'07 District of Columbia -148
4. Kentucky - 147
5. Tennessee - 110
'07 Kentucky - 91
6. California - 75
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

esoteria wrote:There is also a lack of other good mathematics questions
There's a lack of good math questions in quiz bowl because such a beast does not exist.
esoteria wrote:Perhaps a better question would be to give students a hairy equation and asking them for the equations that would re-orient coordinate axes to make the situation much easier.
You could not do this except for extraordinarily trivial and boring cases in appropriate time.
esoteria wrote:Students should be able to to more complicated problems, combining math concepts, such as differential equations, with reactions.
Show me a high school that teaches reaction kinetics through differential calculus, and then if you must have such crap, it will at least be converted by one school. I won't hold my breath, though.
esoteria wrote:Where is Ampere's Law, or Biot-Savart, or even parallel axis or the shell theorem? These, in my opinion, are far more important than happening to know what colours have the smallest wavelength. That can be found by consulting a chart.
Biot-Savart isn't computationally feasible, and parallel axis is pretty straightforward--it'd get integrated into the canon and then it'd be as irritating as most NAQT math is. Ampere's and shell theorem are both equivalent to or deriveable from Stokes, and that's just dull. These two things are equal, and one is easier to calculate. Woo hoo! (Also, don't look at a chart; visualize a rainbow. Prettier and faster both.)
esoteria wrote:Given, some of the lack of depth can be attributed to the fact that the curriculae in school systems have deteriorated very greatly in the past several years. Math and physics classes have degenerated into lessons in button-punching instead of sitting and having a good think.
omg let's take a break from quiz bowl and do a USAMO proof every seven questions
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

everyday847 wrote:
esoteria wrote:There is also a lack of other good mathematics questions
There's a lack of good math questions in quiz bowl because such a beast does not exist.
I think there are plenty of good math questions in PAC, though - the 60-second time limit and lack of a need for pyramidality makes the math there just fine.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stained Diviner »

Speaking of USAMO Proofs, congrats to Greg Gauthier for making Honorable Mention.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

cornfused wrote:I think there are plenty of good math questions in PAC, though - the 60-second time limit and lack of a need for pyramidality makes the math there just fine.
They may be good math questions, but they couldn't be good math quiz bowl questions. They're a different animal, a calculation break.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by aestheteboy »

That was my teammate Adam Marshall trolling with a dual account!! Check the IP!! :twisted:
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by BobGHHS »

In pretty much my last official act as coach of GHHS, I want to congratulate Dan on becoming an All-American as well as Greg and the others whose names I didn't write down.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Stat Boy »

Anyone familiar with the level of my interest in math knows the extent of the validity of Daichi's statement. :roll:
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by jbarnes112358 »

ReinsteinD wrote:Speaking of USAMO Proofs, congrats to Greg Gauthier for making Honorable Mention.

ditto for Palmer Mebane of Maggie Walker Governor's School A
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by aestheteboy »

Anyway, more seriously, I think it's fine that PAC questions suck by quizbowl standard, since it really isn't quizbowl; I wish there were a national championship featuring state all-stars with real quizbowl questions, but I have no reason to expect that PAC be it. I think there are some interesting science and math questions that are only possible because it's not quizbowl. And, buzzer races . . . well, all you have to do is buzz in fast. They are pretty fun once you get used to it. Basically, I'm cool with the fact that of the 52 weekends I have each year, one of them is devoted to a non-quizbowl activity.
The thing with PAC that's more annoying is that they deliberately make it into a show. Everything they do is for theatrical effects, and they shift the focus from the students to the sponsors/the hosts. This particular aspect is the hallmark of bad "academic competition" - think of Chip or any local quiz show. I have no doubt that the individuals behind PAC are great people, but what they do as a group strikes me as pretentious and self-complacent.

With that said, the tournament was pretty exciting (in twisted ways), and if I'm invited next year I will definitely go. After being the driving force behind Maryland's tragic loss in the semifinals for 2 years in a row, I have no choice, really. It's win or seppuku next year.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

jbarnes112358 wrote:
ReinsteinD wrote:Speaking of USAMO Proofs, congrats to Greg Gauthier for making Honorable Mention.

ditto for Palmer Mebane of Maggie Walker Governor's School A
And, jeez, Evan O'Dorney wins the Clay and ties for the high score? This kid is brilliant - 9th grader slash Berkeley student, spelling bee champ - but just a teensy bit awkward.
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by wd4gdz »

cornfused wrote:
jbarnes112358 wrote:
ReinsteinD wrote:Speaking of USAMO Proofs, congrats to Greg Gauthier for making Honorable Mention.

ditto for Palmer Mebane of Maggie Walker Governor's School A
And, jeez, Evan O'Dorney - just a teensy bit awkward.
Watch out Greg: "O'Dorney is also an accomplished pianist. On top of that, he juggles and has earned a tae-kwon-do black belt."

I'll leave you all with a quote:
"Math is neat: A statement is either true or false,” O’Dorney says. “In science, any theory can be overturned by experiment because science is founded on experiment. But in math, there are theorems that can never be overturned because they have been proved with logic.”
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Re: 2008 Panasonic Academic Challenge updates

Post by Kechara »

BobGHHS wrote:In pretty much my last official act as coach of GHHS, I want to congratulate Dan on becoming an All-American as well as Greg and the others whose names I didn't write down.
What about congratulating Dan for being the artist of the day? Or is that the wrong Dan?
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