Illinois '08-'09

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by leapfrog314 » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:42 pm

Highlights from the State College match...

Dwight: Name this ship from Moby Dick.
Nick: The Peapod.

Dwight: (lyrics from Piano Man)
Nick: BUZZ (pauses for several seconds)
Dwight: Time.
Nick: PIANOMANBYBILLYJOEL!!!
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:20 am

T-minus one week till we will all be reunited with IG

:party: :party: :party: :party:
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:03 pm

The Man, The Legend.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:53 pm

What exactly is IG? I've seen "him" mentioned a few places here, and I can't even think of anyone with a first name starting with 'I'. Is this some ACE camp in-joke?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:03 pm

See The Jake O'Shea appreciation society for more information
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

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(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:36 pm

I echo David, just visit the facebook group... that will explain sufficently.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:36 pm

I played against him multiple times, and he was always normal.

Somehow, some way, something happened...He was part of what made camp memorable. I don't want to post too much here, but the Facebook group is definitely lacking certain details.


I can't wait for Ultima, for this reason and many more.

BUT he may not even be there--I think he's a sophomore.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:16 pm

Aub-ZH wrote:he was always normal
...

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:34 pm

IG!!
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
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(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:27 am

1. It's true. I'll give him that credit--I never found anything peculiar about him pre-camp.
2. The name originated from the earliest moments when we entered camp. I gave him a what's up and asked him what his name was, as I couldn't recall. When he refused to tell me, I told him I'd just start calling him Ignatio, considering he's from St. Ignatius (which I DID remember). Ignatio became Ig, and the fire spread.


I still lament how ridiculous things got, from both sides, as it became a distraction. I actually look forward to meeting him in a normal environment again. It will definitely be an interesting experience.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:59 am

Before Captain Jack makes a comment as to whether or not Ultima is a normal environment, I'll save him the trouble. :wink:

Otherwise...you boys play nice!
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:18 pm

What time does Ultima start/what time do we need to be there?
David Garb-
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(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:39 pm

4:23 AM Sunday morning.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:19 pm

This thread needs new blood. Badly. Where's that weird Sox fan when we need him.

Re: Ultima

Mr. Riley told us today to come at 8:00/8:15ish. I think the coaches meeting is at 8:30. So come before then. Btw, is Nick coming?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:51 pm

Yeah, it's me nick, and three not as good peeps b/c Greg has PSAT, and our other starter has Cross country
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
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Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:06 am

As Jack said, plan to arrive between 8:00-8:15.

And the diehard sox fan is taking a hiatus
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:56 pm

Thoughts on Ultima (with help from Garb, who typed more of this than nick):

1. First, it needs to be said that the tournament was excellently run. The moderators were very knowledgable and the food was excellent. We were honored to be invited and if we are ever invited back again, we will definitely go.

2. Rockford Auburn and Loyola were both very impressive when we saw them. Loyola was easily the best team we faced, with Jack and Joe dominating when we played them. I undestand that Auburn did not dominate the tournament. However, they were lacking Siva and Michael was hurt by the small history distribution. They still managed to crush our room, which shows that they are as good as advertised.

3. It is too early to make judgements about Fremd or IMSA. While we did not face Fremd, the computation format plays to their team (Arjun) really well , and I am not surprised that they did as well as we were told they did. While IMSA may not have had a great day, the fact that they were missing Bonni really means that they were not at full stregnth and I personally have no way of gauging how they would have preformed at full strength.

4. I am sad to announce that with Greg gone, as well as the rest of the team, the WN program will be having anything but a strong year. Their performance in our room could be amost considered sad, as they finished with around 40 pts and really didn't answer alot of questions to begin with.

5. Our performance as a team: Becuase of a certain standardized test and a cross country meet we were without our 3rd and 4th players, instead we brought our two contenders for the fifth spot which is why you could see us trying to encourage both of them to be a little more confident on the buzzer (That's why I wouldn't ask for the repeat, I made my teammate do it.) Our first round match was a joke with me (David) netting a whopping -70 pts. Second match we played well, and our third match was dominated by Auburn as we negged ourselves into a third place finish.

6. If available, could someone post the full match results; or at least the points for each team, and could someone also post the finals and those results?
Last edited by Kanga-Rat Murder Society on Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:56 pm

Ultima results-

1. Carbondale
2. Loyola
3. Fremd
4. New Trier

This tournament wasn't a good indicator for who is going to be good this year (re: BG guys). To quote Evan,
BuzzerZen wrote:A buzzer game vaguely resembling quiz bowl will be played. The team with the best math player will win, unless another team is better at the crucial coloring portion of the distribution.
I can say that this was the first time I was in a bad mood throughout the entire day of a QB tournament.

Though I'm glad Carbondale won because they had to drive 5-6 hours both ways. Congrats to them, they played quite well.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:25 pm

And the Decemberist has been announced!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6627
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:42 pm

Excellent job contributing to the Ultima discussion Brad.

:party: :party:
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
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(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:09 pm

Ah, yes :)

Ultima really doesn't contribute much, if anything, to the Illinois picture due to the quirky format.

That said, I did thoroughly enjoy moderating, and seeing teams for the first time this year. Of those I saw, I'm definitely hopeful that I can see Buffalo Grove, Stevenson, and Wheaton Warrenville at more tourneys this year, perhaps at New Trier.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:55 pm

When's Huskie Bowl?

I echo the sentiment that Ultima is NOT in fact scholastic bowl. The countdown to Earlybird begins, however. It's gonna be a fun one.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:56 pm

Huskie Bowl is Feb. 14th.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:06 pm

You should make the trophy heart-shaped and have it say "I Love Quizbowl".

There's no better way to honor Valentine's Day.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:15 pm

Aub-ZH wrote:You should make the neg-trophy heart-shaped and have it say "I Love Quizbowl".
Fixed.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:25 pm

JackGlerum wrote:
Aub-ZH wrote:You should make the neg-trophy heart-shaped and have it say "I Love Quizbowl".
Fixed.
Were you eavesdropping on Kristin and me at lunch at Ultima? We were trying to figure out a good neg prize and that's miles ahead of anything we'd thought up.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:16 am

styxman wrote:
JackGlerum wrote:
Aub-ZH wrote:You should make the neg-trophy heart-shaped and have it say "I Love Quizbowl".
Fixed.
Were you eavesdropping on Kristin and me at lunch at Ultima? We were trying to figure out a good neg prize and that's miles ahead of anything we'd thought up.
Perhaps the neg-prize could be a plush Cupid?

A solid neg-prize two years in a row would greatly enhance the Decemberist's reputation, and a sweep across Decemberist I, Decemberist II, and Huskie Bowl would make you, Brad Fischer, a legend in my eyes.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:41 am

Lime, Self and Society wrote:As of right now, I hope our Pre-Winter Break Schedule consists of:
10/4 EFT
10/18 Ultima
10/25 Earlybird
11/8 Wheaton North Kickoff
11/15 Rockford Auburn Harvard Mirror
11/22 Scobol Solo
12/6 Rock Valley CC NAQT
12/13 Loyola Frosh/Soph
Of course, we'll be at the 12/20 New Trier Varsity, but we're not planning on fielding a team.
These dates will not be set in stone for a few more weeks.
Add Northwestern to this list.
We are looking forward to Earlybird--a good time will be had by all.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:12 am

Thanks to everyone who participated in the Ultima; full stats will be forthcoming shortly.

And I have a full-fledged diatribe in response to Mr. Glerum, but my boss called with one of her "I've known about this for weeks but I need you to do something by second period" so I don't have time now. Stay tuned! :twisted:
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:59 am

Okay, here's the diatribe as promised: :grin:

I will hold the following truths re Ultima, and by association Panasonic, to be self-evident:

1) It is not regular quiz bowl. No one has ever claimed that it is.
2) While there is certainly more math/science computation than in other formats, there are plenty of questions in other subjects.
3) More than two guaranteed matches (at Panasonic) would be preferable.
4) Pyramidal questions would be preferable to the quick recall, matching, and multiple choice questions in this format...
5) ...But regardless of question quality, a comprehensive knowledge base is needed in order to be competitive.


I''m being summoned....to be continued.....comments welcome meanwhile
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:15 pm

Mr. Riley's points are all correct. Also, he did a good job of running things smoothly and getting good moderators.

My proposed conclusion:
Since Florida format is worse than regular quizbowl, any solution that involves less Florida format and more regular quizbowl would be an improvement. If any aspects of Florida format are to be kept, certainly one liners, matching, multiple choice, and questions that could not be answered by somebody with perfect knowledge ninety percent of the way through are not among them.

Given the location, level of competition, and management, Ultima should be one of my favorite tournaments of the year.

It might be a perfect tournament to run as packet submission. If you let teams know in March that they qualified, they would have time to submit packets in September.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:34 pm

I like the idea of packet submission. What about keeping the format but having pyramidal questions....I have done Ultima as a precursor to Team Illinois, but it doesn't have to be; if we continue to send a Team Illinois then the February tryout may be enough. Comments?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:26 pm

I disagree, I think that using Ultima to introduce players to the format is a very good thing. I can personally say that not only physically playing the format, but also being able to see how good teams play the matching and handouts, helped me gain a greater understanding of how the format needs to be played.

If you are set on modifying the format in some way, I guess I would have to say just change all of the quick recall questions into good pyramidal toss-ups. I don't think you can really get rid of the matching or the Handouts b/c those make up so much of the format.

If you were set on totally changing the format, I feel that if you were to change Ultima into a "Elite tournament" which could be used to further seed teams for Kickoff, you would accomplish the feat of getting the elite teams in the state into one building, but I feel that w should just wait for kickoff in terms of getting a grip on teams.

Sorry, that last Paragraph stopped making sense when I typed it, but I feel if you can decode it then there are some good things in there.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:49 pm

The question is; can we get the people in Florida to make changes to the format?

Even with a change in direction--and no respect at all to Mrs. Harrod, who did a great job of managing the tournament from 1988-2007--I don't think they are going to outright fire their question writers, some of whom have been writing questions from the beginning. Most likely change will have to happen gradually. I will always host the Ultima as an elite tournament, even if Loyola doesn't qualify. If we no longer send a team to Florida, then I will make it an NAQT Tournament, a mirror of an ACF or PACE tournament, or a packet-submission tournament, as Mr. Reinstein suggested.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:08 pm

Florida is not going to change, because nobody in Florida is trying to change it. I don't get the sense that they realize that there are better possibilities out there.

The gradual change over the past few years is that PAC and NAC have stopped being viewed as the top national championships. The top national championships are HSNCT and NSC, and that is a change for the better. A gathering of the top teams that made them better at NAQT and/or PACE formats and canons would be more beneficial.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Matt Weiner » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:16 pm

Lime, Self and Society wrote:Florida is not going to change, because nobody in Florida is trying to change it. I don't get the sense that they realize that there are better possibilities out there.
The Florida Department of Education can keep running a "national championship" which is weighted to the point of literal absurdity to maximize the potential for a Florida team winning, but if everyone else stops patronizing this nonsense, then yes, change will happen, in the sense of teams or states now having several thousands of dollars to go to better tournaments, or even to organize a competing tournament for statewide all-star teams that is played with good questions in a reasonable format. It's not like you are obligated to attend whatever tournament the Florida people put on, so saying "they're not going to change, so let's [host tournaments in their terrible format/spend a lot of time and energy preparing for their terrible tournament/suggest how PACE and NAQT can somehow change this thing that is not going to change]" doesn't make much sense to me.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:40 pm

On that point, I do feel that teams in certain states are very sheltered (Illinois included) and hosting something like Ultima exposes teams to a different format that what most teams are used to.

To show how sheltered some of the schools are, our team recently had it's first exposure to NAQT because of the goldfish (which we only did b/c Nick and I pushed for), some coaches just aren't willing to branch out of their norm, which is a common but unfortunate practice.

EDIT: this post has no point

If exposing teams to this relatively bad format, puts them on a path towards much better formats like NAQT or PACE then I think you can call the tournament a success just on the fact that it is exposing those teams to so much more.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by vcuEvan » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:02 pm

BGSO wrote: If exposing teams to this relatively bad format, puts them on a path towards much better formats like NAQT or PACE then I think you can call the tournament a success just on the fact that it is exposing those teams to so much more.
I'd wager that exposing teams to NAQT and PACE would be more likely to put teams on the path to NAQT and PACE. Just sayin...
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:09 pm

David Riley wrote:The question is; can we get the people in Florida to make changes to the format?
Why do we still send a team to the PAC/NTAE? (seriously I'd like a Riley/Reinstein/Egan/whoever else response to this)

Is it because we want to make our state look good and beat teams like Dorman who would obliterate any Illinois all-star team in a pyramidal tournament? If it's because of the scholarships, fair enough. But no one is going for the quizbowl, which is why I pose the question. It's as if everyone thinks we have to send a team. Am I the only one who sees the irony in the fact that the tournament that draws every single Illinois powerhouse is the one that has the worst questions? This is what bothers me, that everyone recognizes Florida format’s shittiness, but somehow it continues to be a well attended event (applies to PAC & Ultima).
Matt Weiner wrote:if everyone else stops patronizing this nonsense, then yes, change will happen, in the sense of teams or states now having several thousands of dollars to go to better tournaments, or even to organize a competing tournament for statewide all-star teams that is played with good questions in a reasonable format. It's not like you are obligated to attend whatever tournament the Florida people put on, so saying "they're not going to change, so let's [host tournaments in their terrible format/spend a lot of time and energy preparing for their terrible tournament/suggest how PACE and NAQT can somehow change this thing that is not going to change]" doesn't make much sense to me.
I usually disagree with the "radical move for change" stance that Matt often takes, but he's right in this case. Florida format IS A JOKE. Instead of altering the format/style of the tournament, why not throw out the entire model and do what everyone else in the country does (gasp!). Run a tournament that has a couple round robins, guaranteeing more than 5 rounds (gasp again!) and that doesn’t have any math (gasp one more time!). What a concept! I applaud Auburn for hosting basically the only high school tournament in Illinois like this, the HFT mirror.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:02 pm

Jack, you bring up a good point, but look at the attendance of teams that are planning to go to auburn. I don't know the number, but I can't imagine that they have more teams than a tournament like Fremd, which uses a IHSA format, and draws not only the usual suspects you see at a tournament, but also teams from within it's conference with the promise of "league like play". I think teams have a chooice when deciding to run a tournament.

A. Run a Quizbowl tournament with pyramid style TO's, 3 part bonuses, and most likely a NAQT, PACE, or house written mirror.

B. Run a scholastic bowl tournament with possible not as good toss-ups, 4 part bonuses, and 5 matches on the day.

Form a economic standpoint, I would have to infer that running option B makes more sense, as you will attract not only the elite teams that attend a tournament every week or so, but you will also attract a team that will maybe attend one tournament as a warm up for IHSA.

David

Also, Nick, you like my new avatar?
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Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:21 pm

David, I think all the ''powerhouses'' except Carbondale will be there. HFT will be a good time.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:48 pm

Jack--
The question of continuing to send a team to NTAE was addressed seriously for the first time at the IHSSBCA August meeting this year. Several people on the Steering Committee, including some who had been to the competition in Florida, stated that they felt it was a legitimate competition that provided an educational and a positive memorable experience for our students. We considered options for how we could otherwise spend the money (such as lowering dues, helping teams pay for HSNCT or NSC, giving away more Banquet tickets, and setting up a grant program), and the Steering Committee decided to continue sponsoring Team Illinois.

This was a group decision. If most people on the Steering Committee believed that NTAE was an illegitimate competition, then we would not send a team. A decision to send a team this year has already been made. (Because our best-attended meetings are in August and February, and the February meeting is the same day as Tryouts, the August meeting will continue to be the time when we decide whether to continue with NTAE.)
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:17 pm

BGSO wrote: Also, Nick, you like my new avatar?
I love it. What's next, Barack in front of the Confederate flag?

Going back to quizbowl, Garb is unfortunately correct. Teams in Illinois just do not care about good quizbowl. Right now, an Illinois style tournament will enjoy greater success than a non-Illinois style quizbowl tournament. The way to change this is through baby steps. One of these baby steps will take place in three weeks at Kickoff and I am certain that the bonus format will lead to a greater number of teams willing to go to non-IHSA style tournaments.

I personally enjoyed the change in format at Ultima and believe that those questions are much better than the questions the MSL plays (I believe that we use Avery Questions for Varsity, but I could be wrong). The point is that any exposure to new questions is good exposure. I have always seen it as absurd that District 214 can have 10 kids get 36's on their ACT, but cannot have a decent quizbowl team. If they realize their is life outside of the MSL this could change.
Nicholas Bergeon
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UW-Madison '12
WUSTL Law'15

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cdcarter » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:17 pm

Any chance the Ultima questions can be released? I'd love to see what all this hubbub is about, and it'd be a good resource, IMHO.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:26 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote:
BGSO wrote: Also, Nick, you like my new avatar?
I love it. What's next, Barack in front of the Confederate flag?
....
I personally enjoyed the change in format at Ultima and believe that those questions are much better than the questions the MSL plays (I believe that we use Avery Questions for Varsity, but I could be wrong).
Yes. MSL varsity has used Avery for some time now. Mr. Palmer at Fremd could probably give the exact history. Frosh/soph used Bob Brown's The Question Well in 07-08.

So, who IS that in the flag avatar?
Jeff Price
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Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:50 pm

cdcarter wrote:Any chance the Ultima questions can be released? I'd love to see what all this hubbub is about, and it'd be a good resource, IMHO.
I have a packet of the 5 point and 10 point round from the 2000 Ultima. The questions are similar to the 2008 Ultima because the majority of the questions are culled from old PACs (not 100% about that). I don't feel like typing the computational questions, but here they are.

Enjoy.
2000 Ultima Game Three wrote: Think quickly and give any year that Franz Kafka was alive.

What nickname is given to natives of Rio de Janeiro?

Which novel begins with the line "To the red country and part of the gray country of Oklahoma, the last rains came gently, and they did not cut the scarred earth"?

What is the name of the instrument used to detect and measure the strength of an electrical current?

What is the national epic of Finland?

Arrange these five World War II events in chronological order.

A. The Siege of Leningrad
B. Operation Torch
C. Battle of the Bulge
D. St. Lo Breakout
E. The sinking of the Bismarck

If you draw one card from a standard deck of 52 playing cards, then what is the probability that you will draw a six?

What term defines the sum of two vectors?

Which metal has the highest density at room temperature?

Match the following US Presidents with their spouses.

A. Thomas Jefferson
B. Harry S Truman
C. Rutherford Hayes
D. Dwight Eisenhower

1. Bess Wallace
2. Mamie Dowd
3. Lucy Webb
4. Martha Skelton

Which award in hockey is presented annually to the most outstanding goalie?

In what century would you find the Jacobean and Caroline ages of English literature?

What does one call the junction of an axon of one neuron with the dendrites or cell body of another neuron?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:34 am

I think I can speak with a bit more experience about the competition formerly known as PAC than other current Illinois high school players. I went as part of Team Illinois this past June, and I thoroughly enjoyed myself. Disney World was fun and so was spending time playing frisbee and the like with players from around the country. I don't regret that I went, and when my coach asked me what I thought about sending a team this year again, I supported the idea of funding Team Illinois again. I just want to make it clear that I do have some positive bias towards the event.

However, the factors that made PAC stand out as a unique, enjoyable experience also contributed to its weakness as an actual academic competition. Corporate sponsorship and the resulting level of glitz were among the only parts of the whole affair that stood out positively. Quiz bowl as a whole, and especially at the highest levels of the game, is so community-based that the non-essential style components suffer. The obvious benefit of that situation is that quiz bowl is flexible and responsive to the needs and ongoing debate of the community, a benefit which should be preserved at all costs. The edge that PAC has in attracting less dedicated players and in entertaining players who do enjoy real quiz bowl resides solely in the organizers' ability to put on a good show and give out significant scholarship money. Without that, it would be impossible to tolerate the PAC. The game format is incredibly gimmicky and constructed for maximum excitement--except, of course, for the parts that involve minute-long physics calculations and five minute-long foreign language videos. The format allows some things, like foreign language, to enter play in a generally positive manner, but at the same time, it rewards buzzer speed above all else. The questions are rarely pyramidal at all and often anti-pyramidal. The literature distribution consists almost purely of title-author info with a strong bias towards small sections of the American canon. There is an undue emphasis on knowing the chronological order of events and people's lives. Playing four to six teams at a time hardly ensures that the best team wins; forget about ranking the top several teams meaningfully. The Polk County people aren't going to change any of this because they're a school board organization, which status allowed them to obtain corporate sponsorship.

If I had had to choose last year between NAQT, PACE, and the PAC, PACE would have won without question. I was fortunate enough to be able to attend all three, and so, having had my fill of legitimate quiz bowl (and having a math stud on my team), I was able to tolerate the PAC. I do not think it is acceptable for the state of the game that the PAC is the only exposure to national competition for such an alarmingly large number of teams in the country.

I see a few options for action in the future:
1. People just keep going to the PAC (now the NTAE) indefinitely until the people in charge run out of money (which might not be far off).
2. Some other kind of organization responsive to the current definition of good quiz bowl manages to obtain enough corporate sponsorship to award scholarships to the winners and run a tournament with a sense of formality in order to differentiate it from the other, cheaper tournaments.
3. An organization like the one in group 2 holds a tournament for all-star teams that's pared down to basically resemble PACE to control costs.

Personally, option number 2 seems like the ideal one (though incredibly improbable). Option 3 would be pretty awesome as well, but I question the level of attendance we'd see for something like that.

It's late, I've rambled, my apologies. Hopefully, I've said some things that made sense and added to the discussion.
Siva Sundaram, Rockford Auburn High School '09

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:52 am

It's funny--I enjoyed playing in the Ultima while realizing the entire time how bad of a format it was. It truly did represent the bane of what we Illinoisans regard as 'good' quizbowl. I just think that players (me included) enjoy a change of pace, something new for once. I agree with those who said a PAC format with quality questions could have some merit--the frequent buzzer races would then be erased, and the higher level of teamwork would continue. And that probably is what distinguishes the Florida format from anything we play on a regular basis, that it does produce a more team-worky atmosphere.

And I think Jack is right--the carryover from old packets (which we practiced on) to the question set in Ultima was sort of astonishing.
Zahed Haseeb

Auburn High School 2010
University of Chicago 2014

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Matt Weiner » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:04 am

Lime, Self and Society wrote:Several people on the Steering Committee, including some who had been to the competition in Florida, stated that they felt it was a legitimate competition that provided an educational and a positive memorable experience for our students.
Several people on the Steering Committee are apparently idiots. Perhaps you should find a way to stop being forced to listen to their decisions, assuming you disagree.
Matt Weiner
Founder of hsquizbowl.org

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:43 am

Correction--the 2000 set was written by yours truly in the style of PAC; it was the first year that I used PAC at Ultima. This is why I released that set for practice in the format. Subsquent sets were culled from previous PAC sets and will not be released.
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