Illinois '08-'09

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
Locked
User avatar
BGSO
Tidus
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Champaign-Urbana and Arlington heights IL
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:51 pm

The 21st and 28th are taken up by Masonic regionals and states, and I beleive the 14th is the planned day for the HSAPQ question tournament by Loyola and Auburn. Maybe Brad would consider not doing NAQT at huskie bowl but rather a Prisonbowl mirror huskie bowl? Brad?

EDIT: Page 19!!
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:45 pm

Anybody who wants to be an IHSSBCA Liaison has two days left to apply.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

mlaird
Tidus
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:07 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:04 pm

Any results from the Kaneland Tournament today? I assume it was run on Platypus, and that not many of the top teams went, but I'm curious nonetheless.

User avatar
MLaudermith
Wakka
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:22 pm
Location: Bensenville, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by MLaudermith » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:06 am

I moderated at Kaneland today (and was paired up with Greg Gauthier) but I can't say what happened past Round 6.

Going into the playoffs, here was the seeding after 4 morning rounds (80/80):

1. Wheaton-Warrenville South A
2. Byron
3. St. Viator
4. Wheaton North
5. Sycamore
6. Stirling
7. Kaneland A
8. WWS B
9. Winnebago
10. Pekin A
11. Wheaton Academy
12. Marian Central
13. Oswego East
14. Hinckley-Big Rock
15. Durand
16. Plano

I'd guess that WWS A were the champs as they were the only team to top 1000 total points for the morning rounds.
One of Byron's players (I don't recall his name) was the All-Tournament leader with, I think, 25 toss-ups.

The questions were Platypus and consequently, pretty bad. In the matches I observed/read, I'd say only about half the toss-ups were answered. There were a few amusing errors, however:

Bonus: Name these science terms that begin with the letter B.
First answer: photon

Name the state that borders New Hampshire and Quebec.
Answer: Main

And not that it had anything to do with the questions, but the trophies for the teams eliminated in the first playoff round had to be promptly recalled due to a slight misprint: "10th Anal Kaneland Tournament"
Mike Laudermith, Scholastic Bowl Coach, Fenton High School
IHSSBCA Treasurer

"Where can you belt back a fifth of scotch on the Firth of Forth?"
--geography tossup from the pioneering days of Illinois Scholastic Bowl

User avatar
JackGlerum
Tidus
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:20 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:34 am

Good ole' Kaneland.

User avatar
the return of AHAN
Auron
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:35 am

MLaudermith wrote:
Name the state that borders New Hampshire and Quebec.
Answer: Main
I almost didn't see what was wrong with this, aside from the dropped 'e'! Gads, this is a pretty weak error for a middle school tournament, let alone a varsity event.
MLaudermith wrote: And not that it had anything to do with the questions, but the trophies for the teams eliminated in the first playoff round had to be promptly recalled due to a slight misprint: "10th Anal Kaneland Tournament"
This is the greatest thing ever. No wonder Loyola doesn't go! :lol: :lol:
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Stephen Colbert
Wakka
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:12 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stephen Colbert » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:41 am

MLaudermith wrote:"10th Anal Kaneland Tournament"
Somehow this seems just as accurate.
Nathan Hollinsaid
Coach, St. Anthony Streator (2004-2007)
IHSSBCA Performance & Test-Certified Moderator

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:59 pm

Name the state that borders New Hampshire and Quebec.
Answer: Main
Was this a worksheet round?
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

User avatar
rjaguar3
Rikku
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:39 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:35 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:
Name the state that borders New Hampshire and Quebec.
Answer: Main
Was this a worksheet round?
It was a rephrased clue from a toss-up which was uniquely identifying.

With Platypus Questions, the questions vary widely in difficulty because they are computer-generated. Bonuses of "name these ions" appeared alongside "name these things about Innocents Abroad, none of which is Mark Twain". Toss-ups similarly ranged from "what number room was Winston Smith assigned to in 1984" to "what region of space do KBOs come from". There were also a few factual errors to boot (Barcelona, the place where the 1988 Summer Olympics were held) and at least one tossup repeated verbatim (venture capital, from 2008 Rockford Boylan).

Overall, I think the attitude that most teams have is that the questions suck, but there's nothing better to do on that weekend. I'd like to see if SOMEONE in Illinois would like to host a packet-swap/mirror of a pyramidal tournament on this weekend next year. I'm sure a lot of the teams that continually come to Kaneland year after year because there is nothing else would prefer an improvement.
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:48 pm

What about trying to talk Kaneland into fixing their format and finding a different provider?
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
rjaguar3
Rikku
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:39 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:02 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:What about trying to talk Kaneland into fixing their format and finding a different provider?
I know Ken Dentino pretty well. From this, I know that it will likely be a futile effort to get him to change. I want your advice: should I send him an e-mail?
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

User avatar
Edward Elric
Tidus
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:31 pm
Location: Wheaton, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Edward Elric » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:51 pm

My god these questions were bad. Im not trying to be mean at all but seriosuly there was so many mistakes that i wondered how they couldn't catch any of them. And it starts with the 10th Anal Kaneland tournament. I'll just go over a couple of things i didn't like.

1. Short worded questions. Not sure exactly what but there were questions one sentence long. Now i have seen many tournaments in my team and questions need to be more pyramidal.

2. Categories. What made me most frustrated was the fact that under Fine Arts they had a movie question. FINE ARTS SHOULD BE MUSIC AND ART NOT MOVIES!!!!!! Thats what miscellaneous/ pop culture is for.

3. Too many little mistakes. As pointed out by greg there were lots of factual errors, Ex. This first Winter Classic Hockey game was held in Buffalo. WRONG! First one held in Edmonton, first one in U.S. was in Buffalo. Another example: This Bears coach was 2nd highest in playoff wins behind George Halas and 3rd to Iron Mike. Answer: Mike Ditka???????

Overall, this being my first post i have to say, expand the questions and get a fact checker or fire the current one.

Mike Perovanovic (Worst Captain of Wheaton North in 10 years :p)
Last edited by Edward Elric on Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Perovanovic
University of Ill.-Chicago '13
Wheaton North '09

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:16 am

You should send him an email, though I don't know how much good it will do. I believe that Dentino prefers questions that are not pyramidal and that many of the teams there do not want pyramidal questions. It still would be useful to point out that the conversion rate is too low, that some of the questions are unacceptable by any criteria, and that students could learn more if they heard questions with more academic clues.

However, I'm not sure what suggestions you could make that would be acted upon. You could point to the IHSA Rules that make some of the questions he uses illegal, but I just don't know what good it would do.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
Down and out in Quintana Roo
Auron
Posts: 2907
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Camden, DE
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:21 am

rockinzeppelin wrote:Ex. This first Winter Classic Hickey [sic] game was held in Buffalo. WRONG! First one held in Edmonton, first one in U.S. was in Buffalo.
Not exactly true. It wasn't called the Winter Classic when it was held in Edmonton in 2003, it was called the Heritage Classic. So, probably just a poorly worded question. But not necessarily for the reason you pointed out.
Mr. Andrew Chrzanowski
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org

User avatar
BuzzerZen
Auron
Posts: 1517
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:01 pm
Location: Arlington, VA/Hampshire College
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BuzzerZen » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:23 am

rockinzeppelin wrote:2. Categories. What made me most frustrated was the fact that under Fine Arts they had a movie question. FINE ARTS SHOULD BE MUSIC AND ART NOT MOVIES!!!!!! Thats what miscellaneous/ pop culture is for.
Eh, film comes up as part of the fine arts distribution with some regularity. Not a large part, but it happens. Now, if the film was Battlefield Earth rather than Battleship Potemkin, you probably have cause for complaint.
Evan Silberman
Hampshire College 07F

How are you actually reading one of my posts?

leapfrog314
Wakka
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:49 am
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by leapfrog314 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:26 am

Shcool wrote:I believe that Dentino prefers questions that are not pyramidal and that many of the teams there do not want pyramidal questions...You could point to the IHSA Rules that make some of the questions he uses illegal, but I just don't know what good it would do.
1. I think the problem with Platypus Questions goes beyond lack of pyramidality, as evidenced above, and from questions I've heard.
2. Please clarify the second assertion?
Carlo Angiuli, Indiana University
Director, Aegis Questions, Inc.

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:09 am

Some rules are missing from this year's and last year's Rule Book that should be there. I am going to have to get back to you on that one.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
Stephen Colbert
Wakka
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:12 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stephen Colbert » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:16 am

leapfrog314 wrote:
Shcool wrote:I believe that Dentino prefers questions that are not pyramidal and that many of the teams there do not want pyramidal questions...You could point to the IHSA Rules that make some of the questions he uses illegal, but I just don't know what good it would do.
2. Please clarify the second assertion?
IHSA Rule Book 4-B-8:
A well written question will be clear in what it is asking from the start and will guide the listener towards that answer throughout...If a moderator (or a coach, on appeal) believes that a toss-up has misled the listener by clearly changing intent or direction (also known as a "hose), and that has resulted in a wrong answer on an early buzz by one or both teams, the moderator should discard the toss-up and replace it for both teams to hear.
Similarly, from the casebook:

4-B-8 Case #1 (after giving an example where a player buzzes early with a correct form of an answer, but before the question asks for the answer in a different form):
Aside from being a poor question, this questions is specifically designed to penalize a player who knows the correct answer more quickly. This rule has been added to prevent question writers with agendas, or poor question writers from penalizing strong players. Officials and tournament directors who choose to disregard this rule are acting in a grossly unethical manner.
And, 4-B-8 Case #2 (after given an example of a toss-up that's clearly a hose):
This is an example of a "hose". The only purpose of this question was to trap a more knowledgeable player into giving a partial answer, rather than determining which team had the player with the deeper knowledge. If a moderator is convinced that a question is in any way misleading the player, the moderator has the ethical responsibility to discard the question and replace it.

While probably more applicable to the state series, I'm not sure the following would have any teeth at local tournaments. Nonetheless, they would be good guidelines for coaches to follow when considering questions for their tournaments.

Excerpts from Terms and Conditions VIII-M-9, 12, 13, 14, 15:
9. For non-computational toss-ups, the preferred style is multi-clue, starting with a more challenging clue and ending with a clue that most teams should reasonably be expected to answer correctly. Buzzer-beater questions that virtually any team can be expected to answer after hearing only a few words are discouraged. Toss-ups should begin in a way that
uniquely identifies the answer so that an expert in the subject could answer early without having to guess what the question is asking for.
12. Question writers and / or editors are encouraged to consider and research alternative correct answers and / or common, similar, or related incorrect answers and to list them with instructions to the moderator to “accept also”, “do not accept”, or “prompt on.”
13. Questions should be pristine. While there are many text and internet based sources for facts from which questions can be constructed, word-for-word plagiarism from copyrighted sources or previously used question sets is not permitted. Short excerpts from primary sources such as literature, poetry, music, film, and other media are permitted, especially when the intent of the question is to identify the source, author, era, or other information for which the excerpt is a clue.
14. The vast majority of questions should be academic in nature and relevant to topics typically taught in Illinois High Schools...
15. Within the first few words or within the first clue, toss-up questions should uniquely identify what is being asked (by using a pronoun, or a phrase such as "identify the person" or "name the book"). Avoid starting toss-up questions with statements containing superfluous information that will cue a knowledgeable player to buzz in early with an applicable, germane, but incorrect answer. In no case should a toss-up begin by heading in one direction, then change direction and ask a completely different question.
I could be missing more as I only gave the rules a cursory glance.
Nathan Hollinsaid
Coach, St. Anthony Streator (2004-2007)
IHSSBCA Performance & Test-Certified Moderator

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:41 am

Thanks. That's what I'm talking about. Link
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
Irreligion in Bangladesh
Auron
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Winnebago, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:32 pm

From past personal experience, Spiderwick Chronicles has reared its head in the Platypus Fine Arts distribution.
Brad Fischer
Head Editor, IHSA State Series

Winnebago HS ('06)
Northern Illinois University ('10)
Assistant Coach, IMSA (2010-12)
Coach, Keith Country Day School (2012-16)

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:03 pm

Eh, film comes up as part of the fine arts distribution with some regularity. Not a large part, but it happens. Now, if the film was Battlefield Earth rather than Battleship Potemkin, you probably have cause for complaint.
Yeah, I mean a bit of film is fine in a normal distribution since there is 1/1 painting and 1/1 music (usually) garuanteed. Film in Fine Arts is mainly a problem when A) the film is not legitimatley important(so a tossup on Griffith would be legitmate arts, albeit probably too hard for a lot of events, wherehas a question on Steve Carrell would not be legitmate arts), and B) music and the visual arts are already underrepresented(which may be a problem with Platypus questions).
EDIT: clarity
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

User avatar
BGSO
Tidus
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Champaign-Urbana and Arlington heights IL
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:10 pm

There are alot more problems with platypus than just the distro.
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

User avatar
the return of AHAN
Auron
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:41 pm

I'm hosting the MSL Pre-Season Frosh/Soph tournament this Saturday, and one of the participants informed me they'll only have two players. Is this common? I told said coach that I thought it'd be OK and to bring those two kids as I feel it's better to let those two students who want to play quizbowl, you know, actually play quizbowl. Penny for your thoughts?
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
BGSO
Tidus
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Champaign-Urbana and Arlington heights IL
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:02 pm

I don't know how common it is, but I know last year wheeling no showed to a couple of reg season meets last year b/c they couldn't get enough people. My thoughts are that any time an MSL team plays it is a good time no matter what the circumstances.

After a rough practice today I have decided to declare such a thing as a "Illinois bubble", how do we get coaches out of this bubble and into the world around them?

EDIT: This isn't new, but it was a rough day, is there anything to do? or just wait till the proposed rule changes affect the IHSA?

So, yes
Last edited by BGSO on Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

User avatar
JackGlerum
Tidus
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:20 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:18 pm

I've always thought that it's dumb to prohibit teams of one, two, or three players, provided that it is the only team from that school. Quizbowl isn't basketball. One person, can, and frequently does, dominate teams of four. We shouldn't disallow someone from participating simply because they don't have enough/supportive teammates.

edit: so yes, Mr. Price, I think that's a good call

User avatar
BGSO
Tidus
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Champaign-Urbana and Arlington heights IL
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:43 pm

Anybody know who the question provider is for Naperville this weekend?
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

User avatar
rjaguar3
Rikku
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:39 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:47 pm

BGSO wrote:Anybody know who the question provider is for Naperville this weekend?
I heard it's NAQT. Given how the questions were last year, that's certainly an improvement.
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

User avatar
JackGlerum
Tidus
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:20 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:49 pm

IS-80A.

harpersferry
Wakka
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by harpersferry » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:08 am

I think most hosts around the state waive the requirement that you have 5 players. That and matching tops are common exceptions to the official rules. It is a silly and unnecessary rule to begin with. Nowhere else in the country has the requirement as far as I know.
John Brown
Rockford Auburn '08
Indiana University '12

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:24 am

The requirement for full teams was put in place many years ago. The IHSA State Finals used to be in May, and some schools would have a conflict between that and Prom, so teams would show up to the State Finals with incomplete teams. That made the IHSA bigwigs upset, since they saw it as a sign of disrespect, so they put the rule in place. (All of this took place before I started coaching.) It is a bad rule that is only enforced at the IHSA Tournament. Incomplete teams at other tournaments are allowed to play, which is good. I have asked the IHSA if they are interested in reconsidering the rule--they are not.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
millionwaves
Auron
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Urbana, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by millionwaves » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 am

Something that I'm curious about is what the IHSA-mandated penalties were. When I was playing scholastic bowl in central Illinois, we commonly didn't have a full team. Usually, we were required to start a match with a negative score - usually something like 30 or 50 points. I seem to remember this also happening when we didn't have matching shirts. Is this something official, or was it something ad hoc that people in central Illinois made up, which later became accepted practice?
Trygve Meade
Illinois, ACF

Above the Star-Apple Kingdom

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 am

I've played at something like 5 tournaments in high school on teams of 2 or 3 players, as well as 2 college tournaments on incomplete teams, so I think it's a very good thing to let this team participate, and I can't imagine any sane person would complain about it.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3175
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:53 am

I once played an IHSA game where the other team did not have matching uniforms. I asked my coach to invoke that rule. He refused to do so, saying that it would be rude.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source

User avatar
JackGlerum
Tidus
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:20 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:57 am

Whig's Boson wrote:I once played an IHSA game where the other team did not have matching uniforms. I asked my coach to invoke that rule. He refused to do so, saying that it would be rude.
It would be a pretty desperate thing to do.

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:16 am

The penalty for having an incomplete team is forfeiture of the match, which is especially harsh in a single-elimination season-ending tournament. The penalty for not having matching tops is that your opponent gets 30 points. The penalties have not changed since the rules were instituted, circa 1990 for incomplete teams and 1995 for matching tops. However, the wording on the matching top penalty was clarified because the original wording was unclear about whether to deduct 30 points from the unmatched team or give 30 points to the opponent.

The matching top rule has always made me mad. We qualified for State my first year, before the rule, and we received calls from several coaches letting us know that teams traditionally dressed up for the State Finals. We took the advice, and every single team there was dressed up like we were. The IHSA Director in charge of Scholastic Bowl somehow decided that the teams did not look classy enough and rammed through the matching tops rule even though it served absolutely no purpose at all. Ever since then, the teams have dressed much worse, showing up in matching T-shirts or whatever they want to wear.

About two years after the rule passed, Decatur MacArthur decided to protest the matching tops rule and the low question quality by showing up in bright orange jumpsuits that said Illinois Department of Corrections. IHSA was irate, but there was nothing they could do about it. The rule was then changed to clarify that the matching tops had to be appropriate.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
Irreligion in Bangladesh
Auron
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Winnebago, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:23 am

In the past, Masonics have also usually been strict about those rules. Auburn got docked 30 points every game at Masonics for the matching top rule the year that I was a sophomore. Winnebago was forced to forfeit at Masonics my senior year when we sent only 2 players, although the host (Sterling? Newman? my memory fails) allowed a couple players from Galena to join in for a chimera team to play out the 2 games (which were then recorded as forfeits) so Bago's opponents didn't get bored out of their mind with 3 or 4 straight byes.
Brad Fischer
Head Editor, IHSA State Series

Winnebago HS ('06)
Northern Illinois University ('10)
Assistant Coach, IMSA (2010-12)
Coach, Keith Country Day School (2012-16)

David Riley
Auron
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:27 am
Location: Morton Grove, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:44 am

Hmmm.....Col. Riley thinks the time is right to talk about secession again. :grin:

Getting back to the original question, I say let 'em play, although you might want to make sure MSL doesn't have any league rules about incomplete teams. Of course, should this team place (as a team of two people did at one of my f/s in the mid-90s) be prepared for some whining and griping.
David Riley
Coach Emeritus, Loyola Academy, Wilmette, Illinois, 1993-2010
Steering Committee, IHSSBCA, 1996 -
Member, PACE, 2012 -

"This is 1183, of course we're barbarians" -- Eleanor of Aquitaine in "The Lion in Winter"

User avatar
the return of AHAN
Auron
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:35 am

Whig's Boson wrote:I once played an IHSA game where the other team did not have matching uniforms. I asked my coach to invoke that rule. He refused to do so, saying that it would be rude.
Good for him!
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
AKKOLADE
Sin
Posts: 15259
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:08 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:40 am

Shcool wrote:The penalty for having an incomplete team is forfeiture of the match, which is especially harsh in a single-elimination season-ending tournament. The penalty for not having matching tops is that your opponent gets 30 points. The penalties have not changed since the rules were instituted, circa 1990 for incomplete teams and 1995 for matching tops. However, the wording on the matching top penalty was clarified because the original wording was unclear about whether to deduct 30 points from the unmatched team or give 30 points to the opponent.
Is there any chance of these rules (which are pretty bogus, in my opinion) getting changed?
Fred Morlan
PACE President, 2018-19
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, co-owner
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
hsqbrank manager, NAQT writer (former subject editor), former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator, 2012 NASAT TD

User avatar
the return of AHAN
Auron
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:41 am

Shcool wrote: About two years after the rule passed, Decatur MacArthur decided to protest the matching tops rule and the low question quality by showing up in bright orange jumpsuits that said Illinois Department of Corrections. IHSA was irate, but there was nothing they could do about it. The rule was then changed to clarify that the matching tops had to be appropriate.
heh heh... Years ago, when I coached at Cahokia, my team wore matching hospital scrubs we borrowed from Touchette Regional Hospital in Centreville, because our undefeated archrivals, O'Fallon, had a matching theme at every tournament we played them in (all black clothing, all Hawaiian shirts, etc.). So we did it in an effort to "answer" them. It had nothing to do with any IESA rule, though. I can't believe I actually went to a hospital ER in my spare time to beg for those scrubs. I had WAY too much time on my hands back then!
:lol:
David Riley wrote: Getting back to the original question, I say let 'em play, although you might want to make sure MSL doesn't have any league rules about incomplete teams.
I can't find anything in their printed rules against it.
David Riley wrote: Of course, should this team place (as a team of two people did at one of my f/s in the mid-90s) be prepared for some whining and griping.
Not a serious concern.
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:38 am

FredMorlan wrote:
Shcool wrote:The penalty for having an incomplete team is forfeiture of the match, which is especially harsh in a single-elimination season-ending tournament. The penalty for not having matching tops is that your opponent gets 30 points. The penalties have not changed since the rules were instituted, circa 1990 for incomplete teams and 1995 for matching tops. However, the wording on the matching top penalty was clarified because the original wording was unclear about whether to deduct 30 points from the unmatched team or give 30 points to the opponent.
Is there any chance of these rules (which are pretty bogus, in my opinion) getting changed?
Not with the current IHSA Administrator and Advisory Committee in place. I don't have malice towards him, since he has gotten several things right, but he has no interest in seriously examining these particular rules, and enough people support him on the Advisory Committee to make me unable to push him on it. Even if these passed the Advisory Committee, I have doubts as to whether they would pass the Legislative Committee, which consists of Principals and wields the real power.

The Masons have been more flexible. Their current rule is along the lines that you need at least four students and can petition for two or three if you give them a reason. Due to some extenuating circumstances last year that won't be discussed here, I was worried that my team was going to show up to the State Finals with fewer than five people. I contacted the Masons in advance, and they were accommodating. After getting their permission to show up with fewer than five students, I was actually a little embarrassed to show up with six.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

harpersferry
Wakka
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by harpersferry » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:33 pm

I think this is one of those cases where you just deal with it. Matching tops are enforced at 5 dates at most during the year. Complete teams, at most 3. I've only seen one situation of complete teams being an issue. Yeah it's dumb, but there are better things to spend time trying to get changed. I think this would be a much bigger problem if hosts during the regular season tried to push these rules as well, which they don't.
John Brown
Rockford Auburn '08
Indiana University '12

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:54 pm

To an non-Illinoisan, both rules sound quite idiotic.
Of course, should this team place (as a team of two people did at one of my f/s in the mid-90s) be prepared for some whining and griping.
Why would people complain?
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:15 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:Why would people complain?
Because that's what people do whenever anything happens.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
dtaylor4
Auron
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:43 am

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by dtaylor4 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:18 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:Why would people complain?
Because that's what Illinois coaches do best.

User avatar
JackGlerum
Tidus
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:20 pm

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:01 pm

No truer words have ever been spoken.

User avatar
Edward Elric
Tidus
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:31 pm
Location: Wheaton, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Edward Elric » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:49 am

I second Jack's statement. You haven't played scholastic bowl in illinois until you've heard a coach whine about an answer or a rule being broken.
Mike Perovanovic
University of Ill.-Chicago '13
Wheaton North '09

David Riley
Auron
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:27 am
Location: Morton Grove, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:49 am

I've catalogued some of the more ridiculous Scholastic Bowl complaints over the years. I'll share these at some point.
David Riley
Coach Emeritus, Loyola Academy, Wilmette, Illinois, 1993-2010
Steering Committee, IHSSBCA, 1996 -
Member, PACE, 2012 -

"This is 1183, of course we're barbarians" -- Eleanor of Aquitaine in "The Lion in Winter"

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:09 am

That's cyberteasing, Riley. If you make us wait more than an hour, we are going to get very upset.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

David Riley
Auron
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:27 am
Location: Morton Grove, IL

Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:04 am

Don't mean to be a tease, but the file is on my home computer. Will post before next week.
David Riley
Coach Emeritus, Loyola Academy, Wilmette, Illinois, 1993-2010
Steering Committee, IHSSBCA, 1996 -
Member, PACE, 2012 -

"This is 1183, of course we're barbarians" -- Eleanor of Aquitaine in "The Lion in Winter"

Locked