Need Some input

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How would you rule?

Poll ended at Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:33 am

The answer is wrong.
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Accept the answer as is.
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Prompt.
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Total votes: 38

Tegan
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Need Some input

Post by Tegan »

Here's the question (yes, its not a great question, don't bother saying the question sucks, I know it sucks). and yes, I know that this is a bit contrived, as no logical person would give that answer given the question:

Unlike his older brother, he was not born in Milville, Indiana, finished four years of high school, and lived to see World War Two. He did help his brother build his first printing press. With his brother, his biggest claim to fame was inspired by the work of German Otto Lilienthal and Octave Chanute. Identify this pioneer, who, also unlike his brother, was at the controls of their legendary Flyer on its first successful powered flight on December 17, 1903

The "on paper" answer is Orville Wright

The player rings in and says "Orville and Wilbur Wright"

What do you rule? Would it make a difference if they said "Wilbur and Orville" or "The Wright Brothers"?

I have to write a case interpretation, and this was the only question I could come up with that did not have an instant "common sense" answer. So, I would like some help in arriving at an answer. For what it is worth, I would prompt.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by evilmonkey »

Tegan wrote:Here's the question (yes, its not a great question, don't bother saying the question sucks, I know it sucks). and yes, I know that this is a bit contrived, as no logical person would give that answer given the question:

Unlike his older brother, he was not born in Milville, Indiana, finished four years of high school, and lived to see World War Two. He did help his brother build his first printing press. With his brother, his biggest claim to fame was inspired by the work of German Otto Lilienthal and Octave Chanute. Identify this pioneer, who, also unlike his brother, was at the controls of their legendary Flyer on its first successful powered flight on December 17, 1903

The "on paper" answer is Orville Wright

The player rings in and says "Orville and Wilbur Wright"

What do you rule? Would it make a difference if they said "Wilbur and Orville" or "The Wright Brothers"?

I have to write a case interpretation, and this was the only question I could come up with that did not have an instant "common sense" answer. So, I would like some help in arriving at an answer. For what it is worth, I would prompt.
I would say it is wrong, because it mentioned that it is not the older brother, so saying Wilbur is wrong. I'm not sure how I feel re: Wright Bros.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Dan Greenstein »

The answer is wrong. Any answer that mentions or implies both brothers ("Wright Brothers") is wrong. The only time to prompt is if the person answers with "Wright." The question was uniquely identifying after the fourth word.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores »

I would rule it incorrect if they answered "Orville and Wilbur Wright." From the very first clause, the question is clearly asking for one (namely, the younger) brother. It doesn't make a difference which order you put the brothers in, saying Wilbur anywhere in your answer would make it wrong.

If the player answered "Wright Brothers," I would also rule it incorrect. Adding the "s" does make their answer plural and, again, the question is obviously asking for one brother.

Answering with "Wright," however, definitely deserves a prompt.

EDIT: Corrected for idiocy.
Last edited by AndyShootsAndyScores on Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by BuzzerZen »

Well, accepting the answer as-is is clearly unacceptable, because the answer given is equivalent to same-class blitzing, which is never allowed in legitimate formats. And prompting wouldn't seem work, because the essential goal of prompting is to elicit more information, not less. You wouldn't prompt on "Franklin Delano and Teddy Roosevelt" for "Teddy Roosevelt", I don't think. The only option is to rule the answer wrong. I just hope that's not a real question.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by quizbowllee »

AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:I would rule it incorrect if they answered "Orville and Wilbur Wright." From the very first clause, the question is clearly asking for one (namely, the older) brother.
Uhh... It's clearly asking for the YOUNGER brother...
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Re: Need Some input

Post by JackGlerum »

Tegan wrote:his older brother
I agree with everyone else. While a pretty bad question, the "identifying noun" is clearly a single person. Anything implying more than one person is wrong.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores »

quizbowllee wrote:
AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:I would rule it incorrect if they answered "Orville and Wilbur Wright." From the very first clause, the question is clearly asking for one (namely, the older) brother.
Uhh... It's clearly asking for the YOUNGER brother...
My mistake. It will be fixed.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

I would prompt on "the Wright Brothers," as that requires more specific information. I feel that a "the Wright Brothers" should be treated the same -even though it is NOT the same- as a "Wright." Though I'm not sure why.

"Orville and Wilbur Wright," however, is one additional piece of incorrect information - under Illinois' object-owner rule, this is like answering "The Call of the Wild, by Herman Melville" to a Call of the Wild question, isn't it? So I would rule it incorrect.

But for some reason, I feel that sometimes, the purpose of the prompt should be for MORE SPECIFIC information - not just for MORE information.
Last edited by Maxwell Sniffingwell on Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by dtaylor4 »

cornfused wrote:I would prompt on "the Wright Brothers," as that requires more specific information. I feel that a "the Wright Brothers" should be treated the same as a "Wright." Though I'm not sure why.
I disagree. "Wright" still refers to one person, while "Wright Brothers" refers to multiple people, which in the opinion of myself and previous posters, is inherently wrong.

EDIT: yay for peer editing
Last edited by dtaylor4 on Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

dtaylor4 wrote:
cornfused wrote:I would prompt on "the Wright Brothers," as that requires more specific information. I feel that a "the Wright Brothers" should be treated the same as a "Wright." Though I'm not sure why.
I disagree. "Wright" still refers to one person, while "Wright Brothers" refers to multiple people, which in the opinion of myself and previous posters, is inherently wrong.
Edited for clarity.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Tegan »

BuzzerZen wrote:I just hope that's not a real question.
My word of honor. I wrote this question while eating dinner at Giordano's this evening on the run ... explicitly for this example. I was intentionally trying to write a bad question that (sadly) we still get here, and illustrating moderators how to react. We finally have a rule that allows moderators to throw out any misleading question, but it has required a little retooling in what we allow for "additional correct information". Unfortunately, saying "just use common sense" works for about 20% of moderators and coaches ... on a good day.

I appreciate the input so far .... really I am thankful.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Tegan »

JohnGlerum wrote:
Tegan wrote:his older brother
I agree with everyone else. While a pretty bad question, the "identifying noun" is clearly a single person. Anything implying more than one person is wrong.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Tegan »

cornfused wrote:"Orville and Wilbur Wright," however, is one additional piece of incorrect information - under Illinois' object-owner rule, this is like answering "The Call of the Wild, by Herman Melville" to a Call of the Wild question, isn't it? So I would rule it incorrect.
Yeah ... I took that into account, which is why I picked this question ... something that elicited one answer, where the answer might often come as part of a "package answer". I didn't want to drag the rest of the nation into an Illinois peculiarity, so I thought I would let the question stand on its own. Specifically: is there a time when "additional correct info" crosses the line. In this case, the additional information makes the answer clearly ambiguous.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Stephen Colbert »

Tegan wrote:I have to write a case interpretation, and this was the only question I could come up with that did not have an instant "common sense" answer. So, I would like some help in arriving at an answer. For what it is worth, I would prompt.
I think arguments for both prompting after an answer of the Wright Brothers or Orville & Wilbur Wright and for ruling those same answers incorrect both have some merit. Personally, since the question uniquely identifies a singular, correct answer early on, I'm inclined to side with those who would rule answers like the Wright Brothers or Orville & Wilbur Wright incorrect. I do agree that an answer of simply "Wright" should be prompted for more. If I were to write a casebook scenario for such a problem, it may look something like this:

Question: Unlike his older brother, he was not born in Milville, Indiana, finished four years of high school, and lived to see World War Two. He did help his brother build his first printing press. With his brother, his biggest claim to fame was inspired by the work of German Otto Lilienthal and Octave Chanute. Identify this pioneer, who, also unlike his brother, was at the controls of their legendary Flyer on its first successful powered flight on December 17, 1903.
Answer: Orville Wright

Case #1: A player answers "Orville & Wilbur Wright".
Resolution: The wording of the question uniquely identifies Orville Wright as the only acceptable answer numerous times. While the question does allude to Wilbur Wright, it does so to exclude him as a possible answer choice. In the question we learn the answer of Wilbur Wright would be inaccurate since he was born in Milville, Indiana, was not at the controls of the Flyer during its first successful flight, and died around 1912. An answer of "the Wright Brothers" or of "Orville & Wilbur Wright" should be ruled incorrect and, because the question eliminates Wilbur Wright as a possible answer, is not prompt-able. Because the poor wording of the question is likely to throw some players off, causing players with clear knowledge about the questions to answer incorrectly, the tournament's editors or moderators should review such questions, and when feasible, reword or replace these questions so that the clues in those questions clearly lead knowledgeable players to the desired answer. A possible rewording of the problem to make the answer choice a little clearer follows (I was really, really tired, so this sucks just about as much as the first).

Question: While his older brother was born in Milville, Indiana in 1871 and died well before World War II, this man was born six years later in Dayton, Ohio, which would one day be considered the birthplace of aviation. He would drop out of high school in 1889 to design and build a printing press, with his brother's help, and became the publisher of a weekly newspaper entitled "The West Side News". Though his older brother sought to protect him from danger by piloting early glider test flights, for ten points, who was this early aviation pioneer that was at the controls of the Flyer I during its first successful powered flight on December 17th, 1903 at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina?
Answer: Orville Wright
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Re: Need Some input

Post by First Chairman »

Four words "First and last name required." before the question would completely preclude this. High School Celebrity Shoot biography tournament makes this completely clear including "Name and regnal number please" if we have twelve different kings named Louis.

Is there a reason why one cannot introduce a question like this (similar to "Pencil and paper needed" for computational or other such questions)? Thus to me, this is an editing oversight.

Even so, you did clearly state a specific brother, so birth order is very important. Of course, the question means that the player has to know the specific birth order of the brothers. But it's no different from a George & Ira Gershwin question.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Tegan »

ILoveReeses wrote:Four words "First and last name required." before the question would completely preclude this. High School Celebrity Shoot biography tournament makes this completely clear including "Name and regnal number please" if we have twelve different kings named Louis.
You are absolutely right. When I write real questions, I would certainly have opened the question this way. In Illinois, because we give 30 seconds for computation, and we give the category, the kids would hear something like: "Tossup #21, Science-Physics, 30 second computation", which is their signal to get ready to write.

For the Illinois state series, openings like these are now standard. If a question writer, or the chief editor misses it, the moderators invariably add it.

The only reason I would write a question like this would be as a bonus part, in which case it would be severely trimmed, but would somewhere include "first and last name needed".

But ..... let me ask you this ..... even if the question opened with "first and last name needed" ..... wouldn't you still prompt if they said "Wright"?
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Re: Need Some input

Post by The Goffman Prophecies »

ILoveReeses wrote:Four words "First and last name required."
Uhm... Dr Chuck? That's five words. :grin:
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Tegan wrote:But ..... let me ask you this ..... even if the question opened with "first and last name needed" ..... wouldn't you still prompt if they said "Wright"?
Good question. Shouldn't you NOT prompt because they specifically didn't follow directions? They don't deserve a second chance if they weren't paying attention.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Captain Sinico »

It seems pretty clear to me, both by my own reckoning and Illinois' rules, that the right thing to do is to accept "O. Wright" (or anything more specific than that), prompt on "Wright" and do not accept any of the other proposed answers.
You should not say "First and last name required." All that does is screw a player who buzzes with "Wright" by making it correct to neg them without a prompt. It doesn't clarify things any further; someone could just as easily buzz with "Orville and Wilbur Wright" as before. Also, it's already unambiguously clear from the question that you want one and only one person.
Now, there is a more marginal case here that I think you've missed. It is: someone buzzes with "Orville Wright and Wilbur Wright." I say that ought to be correct (first answer was correct; rest is extraneous), but I'm not certain what Illinois rules would say in that case, so you check that.

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Re: Need Some input

Post by Pilgrim »

On the subject of "first and last name required": That's never a good idea, as it unnecessarily narrows down the answer space to people with ambiguous last names.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Matt Weiner »

ILoveReeses wrote:Four words "First and last name required." before the question would completely preclude this. High School Celebrity Shoot biography tournament makes this completely clear including "Name and regnal number please" if we have twelve different kings named Louis.

Is there a reason why one cannot introduce a question like this (similar to "Pencil and paper needed" for computational or other such questions)? Thus to me, this is an editing oversight.
Actually, the word "he" precludes the answer from being a female, a non-human, or multiple people, with 100% accuracy. I don't think we need to resort to such extreme measures as no longer playing quizbowl to avoid people buzzing with clearly incorrect answers and demanding points for them; instead, we should give people a -5 when they buzz with the wrong answer, and tell them to shut up if they keep complaining.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Tegan »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
Tegan wrote:But ..... let me ask you this ..... even if the question opened with "first and last name needed" ..... wouldn't you still prompt if they said "Wright"?
Good question. Shouldn't you NOT prompt because they specifically didn't follow directions? They don't deserve a second chance if they weren't paying attention.
We've been trying to get a way from that a little in Illinios .... basically trrying to get out of teams winning on technicalities. That is part of hte reason for this new batch of case interpretations.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by Tegan »

ImmaculateDeception wrote: PS: GOD WHAT AN AWFUL QUESTION, AM I RIGHT?
You are right.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by First Chairman »

GoffmanProphecies wrote:
ILoveReeses wrote:Four words "First and last name required."
Uhm... Dr Chuck? That's five words. :grin:
D'oh!

It's like the hopefully required "spelling category" on Jeopardy! where contestants HAD to ask their question and spell the key word. If they didn't put their response in the form of a question, they're dinged. If they didn't spell their answer, they're dinged.

Under these circumstances, you don't prompt if they give incomplete information.

The alternative "opposite" of first-last name required is the "first name acceptable" questions where the person is somehow universally recognizable by their first name. Madonna Ciccone Ritchie comes to mind.

Granted, there is always the John Adams issue... (vs. John Quincy Adams)...

P.S. Yes, it's an awful question... but Tom Egan is trying to be realistic about this case.
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Re: Need Some input

Post by theattachment »

If there's no part of the question that's uniquely identifying, stated with an intro or otherwise, then you should accept either. Because the first four words contains a very uniquely identifying clue ("Hey, it's the younger one out of two!") you can't accept both.

As for whether or not it should immediately be stated that "Name and regnal number required" or stuff like that, how isn't it just assumed that you do that? That's just basic quiz bowl right there. You always have to give the most correct answer; this is why "C. Bronte" and "E. Bronte" are marked as different unless it's a question on the Bronte sisters. Moderators should prompt on partials in that situation, but it should be a given that actually identifying the person is necessary.
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