Missouri 08-09

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:39 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:So what you're all saying is that, if MSHSAA disappeared, teams throughout Missouri would recognize the superiority of good quizbowl and stop playing bad quizbowl? Do you realize that they use a four-quarter format because coaches want it that way and that if lots of coaches felt otherwise the format would change?
Yes, it's understood that a vocal group of coaches of bad teams want to cripple their competition instead of getting better, and have used their position on the advisory board to pass backroom rules that essentially make it illegal to try to improve. That is, in fact, the problem we are discussing here.
I realize I'm on the verge of setting up a strawman here, but let's be realistic about what would happen if MSHSAA dropped quizbowl. Some teams would cease to exist, including a small number of decent ones, and a lot of teams would continue to play bad quizbowl and like it.
Hey, the "anything that improves participation is good" argument: still dumb. The logical conclusion of what you are saying here is that we should just play softball and call it quizbowl. Then every school would have a team, with 30 people on it! Wow, look at all that participation! Let's give ourselves some awards for being such great evangelists!

The reality is that if you're not playing good quizbowl, there's no point in playing at all. Good questions and good formats encourage you to LEARN THINGS, which is the point of this activity. Bad questions and formats reduce to nothing more than reflex tests, math contests, and rewards for trying to make psychic connections with the writer. School-sponsored Trivial Pursuit serves absolutely no purpose, and increasing participating in it is no achievement. Real quizbowl does have a reason to exist, and if Missouri has 80 teams playing that in the future rather than 200 teams playing what they have now, then they will have 80 more teams who are getting a benefit out of the activity than they presently do.

Also, please tell noted states without any regulatory power on their high school teams Maryland, Virginia, Minnesota, Michigan, Texas, North Carolina, and Georgia that they have poor participation in high school quizbowl and are being elitist or whatever your "what the coaches want" argument is supposed to be arguing towards. They will laugh at you. Note also that in addition to Pennsylvania and South Carolina, which don't have as much participation but are likewise unregulated, those states have produced EVERY real national champion. It's not a coincidence.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by magin » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:59 pm

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:08 pm

Not only have all national champions come from unregulated states, note that those national champions have a history of doing things that MSHSAA specifically bans, like going to college tournaments (AS A TEAM) (see: TJ '05, some State College team John told me about) and (for the love of god of course) traveling more than arbitrary distance x to go to tournaments. The MSHSAA isn't just guilty of existing while other states have gone on their merry ways winning championships. They've enacted measures that discourage teams from getting good and make it harder for them to win!

EDIT: Magin, did you quote that just for me?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:29 pm

Debate operates under similar restrictions to quizbowl, with the caveat that they have greater freedom and motivation to attend national tournaments, and they have a one tournament exception to the travel ban, I believe. I know NKC went to Harvard's debate tournament last year. However, the crux of my argument is that all the non-MSHSAA activities seem to be doing just fine without MSHSAA's interference.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by First Chairman » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:40 am

Is it because the makeup of the representatives involved with MO HS debate is more interested in competing nationally than those who are in charge of quiz bowl in MO?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:39 am

Well, as long as bad quizbowl permeates the state we'll never know.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by First Chairman » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:41 am

Understood... it just makes a difference regarding any real progress towards change. Sad to say that democracy and majority rules in many organizations, so knowing how amenable they are to change is something that needs to be kept in mind.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:16 pm

"And my friends, that's not change we can believe in. [awkward smirk and laugh]"
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by carpenoctem » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:39 pm

marnold wrote:This is back farther up, but I think it's worth addressing.
everyday847 wrote:Yeah, Missouri debate is really healthy. Neosho HS was fourth and Parkview HS was seventh in 2006-2007 in one of nflonline's overall rankings. That means that they have large clubs of very skilled debaters, for the uninitiated. Springfield Central HS and Neosho HS won a national award for excellence in debate events. SCHS had a policy team semi; Parkview had an LD debater make it to essentially octos. Three MO public forum teams were in the top fourteen, and one octo'ed, one quartered. There was a MO finalist in extemp commentary.

You know what separates successful debate teams from mediocre ones? They go on lots of out-of-state trips. If you don't go to "national circuit" tournaments, like Yale, Harvard, Glenbrooks, etc., you're extremely unlikely to do well when the national finals come around. The only reason that Missouri is competitive in debate over the last several years is because these restrictions have not been applied to it. The reason that Missouri has been competitive in quiz bowl over the last several years is Charlie Dees.
Um, no: you're wrong. (EDIT: I missed Charlie pointing this out already. The other paragraphs are still unique, though.) Missouri debate has the same restrictions as quizbowl in terms of competing within state borders. Missouri teams can barely get to Glenbrooks and I think the Ohio Valley tournaments, but nothing else with TOC bids.

The angle to take is that Missouri debate does way, way worse in certain events than it should. In events where no real difference exists between National Circuit/TOC style and the local style (PF and IEs, for example), Missouri absolutely throttles the competition - my year I think Missouri closed out sems of PF. In events where good debaters travel and compete on a higher level, Missouri lags well behind states that have equivalently vibrant local circuits. Houston, Dallas, the Twin Cities, the Bay Area, Boston all have local circuits with the same amount of dedicated teams as Missouri but do FAR better in events like CX and LD where traveling to bid tournaments is worthwhile: the numbers you cited for their policy teams and LDers is way behind the powerhouse areas and roughly the same as my state of Colorado with an abysmal local circuit.

So the conclusion is this: when Missouri has a local circuit of the equivalent level to the rest of the country it owns up, but it is at a significant disadvantage when it prevents teams from accessing the national circuit where one exists. Since quizbowl is pretty obviously in the latter category, they should (1) bring the tournament quality up to the level of the rest of the country and (2) allow their good teams to go to quality tournaments elsewhere in the country.
Agreed. Missouri debate is anything but healthy, at least by standards of the national circuit. In fact, it's rather a similar situation to quiz bowl. Missouri is stifled from competing nationally because of MSHSAA rules, but even if these restrictions were removed, a lot of teams would probably still not compete on the national circuit. For one, it's very cost prohibitive: Missouri debate teams tend to be much larger due to the emphasis on individual events and Public Forum, and entry fees and travel fees are often viewed as too expensive for a tournament that not even the whole team can go to. Additionally, a very large portion of debate coaches in Missouri are resistant to the speedy National Circuit policy type debate, which prevents change.

The problem in these instances is that I'm not really sure how feasible it is to remove MSHSAA from governing quiz bowl and debate. It seems like MSHSAA has a rather large stranglehold on activities and sports that would be rather hard to escape. I can't see MSHSAA just relinquishing control to a coaches' association, and in the event that there was a splinter group of teams that broke off of MSHSAA to compete at national tournaments, etc., they would probably have to compete with no affiliation or financial support from their school at all, or else their school would face MSHSAA sanctions.

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:49 pm

carpenoctem wrote:The problem in these instances is that I'm not really sure how feasible it is to remove MSHSAA from governing quiz bowl and debate. It seems like MSHSAA has a rather large stranglehold on activities and sports that would be rather hard to escape. I can't see MSHSAA just relinquishing control to a coaches' association, and in the event that there was a splinter group of teams that broke off of MSHSAA to compete at national tournaments, etc., they would probably have to compete with no affiliation or financial support from their school at all, or else their school would face MSHSAA sanctions.
I'm not saying that it's likely that they will--it's reasonable that you can't see them relinquishing control. But they ought to do so, and that's what I'm arguing. I'm not considering the possibility of a splinter group of teams. I'm not calling for schools to leave; I'm calling for the MSHSAA to do so.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:10 pm

So it's been almost a week after August 6th, Mr. Gibbs. I'm assuming you haven't posted here because there's been a putsch?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:26 am

Oh god.
Questions Galore got the MSHSAA contract.
This is awful.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by cdcarter » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:21 am

Deesy Does It wrote:Oh god.
Questions Galore got the MSHSAA contract.
This is awful.
Ouch.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:30 am

My heart goes out to you, the people of Missouri.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Stat Boy » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:43 am

Today we are all Missourians.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by David Riley » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:48 pm

Does anyone know how many other bids were submitted? A poor choice, to be sure.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by quizbowllee » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:52 pm

Sorry to crash your thread, but I have some experience with Questions Galore:

You would be SHOCKED at how low Questions Galore bids. No one is going to beat them price-wise unless they are doing it for free.

But, you definitely get what you pay for.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:01 pm

Yeah, last year it was less than $30 per round, when the other reasonable bidders were around $75 I think, and one awful bidder was $300.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Auroni » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:26 pm

tear.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Terrible Shorts Depot » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:53 pm

Pennsylvania's thoughts and prayers go out to Missouri.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Joe Romersa » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:29 am

just wondering, how does parkway central usually do at tournaments?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:59 am

They won MSHSAA state in 2004 and got second in 2003 and 2005. Ever since then they've been middling at tournaments like Wash U and haven't won their district.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Joe Romersa » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:40 pm

=[ so no chance of them going to nats?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:18 pm

Here are responses from regional meetings to the proposal about the "Charlie Dees rule"
6. Academic Competition -- To restrict nonschool competition during the season.
Smith-Cotton (Central District): Is this an issue? Put some sportsmanship rules in. Discipline that child. If one
advisory does this for an activity then other activities may. Could academic competition reduce the season time
line? if you can discipline this student then do, if not maybe this should change. 100% against this.
Moberly (Northeast District): Not a big concern. All about kids getting smart. 100% opposed to restricting
nonschool academic competition.
Blue Springs South (Kansas City District): Struggle to field teams, if the advisory committee recommended
something to better the activity we should support them. Would this be more restrictive and cause fewer to
participate? It would be difficult to say kids are learning too much. 100% oppose.
Waynesville (South Central District): Let them have fun and go do whatever they want. 100% in favor lf letting
them do what they want.
South Harrison (Northwest District): Athletics is safety.
McCluer South-Berkeley (St. Louis District): Trivia nights - policy. Limit academic knowledge. 100% opposed.
Republic (Southwest District): No comment. 100%opposed.
Dexter (Southeast District): Would this affect Beta or local trivia nights? Why not? Here for academics. 100%
opposed.
Remember, the rule isn't in place yet, so if these responses hold out, this could be a very good sign.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:00 pm

That's looking pretty awesome.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:07 pm

The system, it's working! That's very heartening to hear. I hope Illinois' coaches will submit similar responses on similarly silly proposals to get rid of pyramidal questions and part-by-part rebounding on bonuses.

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Charbroil » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:42 pm

al3xWal3x wrote:=[ so no chance of them going to nats?
Parkway Central is actually doing very well this year in terms of playing good Quiz Bowl--they took 3rd at WUHSAC and tied for 3rd with us (Francis Howell Central) at the NAQT Qualifier, as well as placing 1st at Mizzou's Tiger Bowl--and this is all with incomplete teams. They have bids for both the HSNCT and PACE NSC--I think they're just looking for the money to attend.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by pinkycook » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:46 am

Sir Thopas wrote:crap why did i let myself get sucked into this
Huh? what is this about?

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:33 pm

It's about him getting into an argument on the moquizbowl.com board. Now who are you again?
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Charbroil » Sun May 10, 2009 8:04 pm

For those who are curious, the MSHSAA State results are at http://champs.mshsaa.org/results/box.as ... ore_ID=352.

Personally, I think Ladue (which took 1st at MSHSAA State) falls in strength between the extremes presented in the argument that was going on at AHAN. Had they had a full team at NAQT State, they probably would have beaten out Parkway Central, but fallen to us (since PCH beat us in a fluke occurrence), taking 4th. In that case, the only team the questions (as opposed to the format) upset at MSHSAA State would be NKC, since NKC was the only team that beat Ladue at the Qualifier which was also at MSHSAA State.

Of course, the MSHSAA District/Sectional system which kept teams like us, Parkway Central, and Savannah (3rd, 3rd, and 2nd at NAQT State) from going to State made State an extremely poor determinant of the top teams in Missouri this year except for 1st/2nd.

Incidentally, I think Clayton's definitely a rising power in Missouri, especially given that I think Charlie is grooming some of their players (which shows--the guy from their team who was the 3rd highest scorer at State was 10th at the NAQT Qualifier.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by paxhispanica » Sun May 10, 2009 9:06 pm

Ikshu is good. I definitely expect Clayton to be a(n even greater) contender in the coming years.

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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by carpenoctem » Sun May 10, 2009 10:12 pm

Charbroil wrote:For those who are curious, the MSHSAA State results are at http://champs.mshsaa.org/results/box.as ... ore_ID=352.

Personally, I think Ladue (which took 1st at MSHSAA State) falls in strength between the extremes presented in the argument that was going on at AHAN. Had they had a full team at NAQT State, they probably would have beaten out Parkway Central, but fallen to us (since PCH beat us in a fluke occurrence), taking 4th. In that case, the only team the questions (as opposed to the format) upset at MSHSAA State would be NKC, since NKC was the only team that beat Ladue at the Qualifier which was also at MSHSAA State.

Of course, the MSHSAA District/Sectional system which kept teams like us, Parkway Central, and Savannah (3rd, 3rd, and 2nd at NAQT State) from going to State made State an extremely poor determinant of the top teams in Missouri this year except for 1st/2nd.

Incidentally, I think Clayton's definitely a rising power in Missouri, especially given that I think Charlie is grooming some of their players (which shows--the guy from their team who was the 3rd highest scorer at State was 10th at the NAQT Qualifier.
Yeah, I was in no way trying to imply we would have won NAQT State with Marc, but rather was objecting to Charlie linking to those results without providing any type of context. With Marc at NAQT State, I think we would have had a pretty good chance of beating Parkway Central, and might have had a shot at Savannah, given we lost to them on a neg on tossup 20, but probably still would have lost to FHC and NKC.

EDIT: It's probably also important to note that Parkway Central was missing Jason Liang at NAQT State as well. But I mean, Liang's a scrub anyway. :wink:
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by NKCtrashman » Mon May 11, 2009 9:46 pm

For all of you non-Missourians this tourney (and districts and sectionals)was an absolute joke (Kwesschuuhnzz Guhhlllloorrre). This tournament has virtually no meaning.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by NKCtrashman » Mon May 11, 2009 9:48 pm

Charlie was not in the wrong for not mentioning that you did not have your third highest scorer at NAQT State.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Charbroil » Tue May 12, 2009 1:39 pm

Disingenuous was probably the wrong word to use there--I do apologize for implying that it was an intentinoal omission. My point was that it was incongruous to compare Ladue's performance at the NAQT Qualifier & MSHSAA State--especially because the margins between the top several teams were extremely slim (as shown by our defeat of NKC yet eventual 3rd place finish).

Edit: I talked about something else being disingenuous. Whereas that was the wrong word to use there also (since no implication of intent was intended), it has no bearing on this situation.
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Re: Missouri 08-09

Post by Charbroil » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:59 pm

Missouri Teams at HSNCT (Cross-posted from moquizbowl.com):

Francis Howell Central 7-3 (1-2 playoffs)
North Kansas City 5-5
Savannah 5-5
Parkway Central High 5-5
Truman 5-5
Tarkio 5-5 (0-2 small school playoffs)
Liberty 4-6
Glasgow 4-6 (0-2 small school playoffs)
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