OAC Discussion 08-09

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The Logic of Scientific Disco
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OAC Discussion 08-09

Post by The Logic of Scientific Disco » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:24 pm

OAC rules wrote:IF AN APPEAL IS LOST, THE APPEALING TEAM MAY FORFEIT ITS NEXT MATCH.
So, most of the rules and format look OK if a little odd, but this is just preposterous. How could this possibly be for real?
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by PaladinQB » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:26 pm

The Logic of Scientific Disco wrote:
OAC rules wrote:IF AN APPEAL IS LOST, THE APPEALING TEAM MAY FORFEIT ITS NEXT MATCH.
So, most of the rules and format look OK if a little odd, but this is just preposterous. How could this possibly be for real?
When I was in high school the rule was that the appealing team forfeited its next match on any lost appeal, no matter how legitimate. As it is, this hasn't been enforced to my knowledge in several years.

I believe the committee wishes to keep it as a vehicle to punish frivolous protests.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by First Chairman » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:05 am

I'll add to say that there is historical reason why that rule was implemented, precisely because of an incident where a tournament was held up many years back.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:44 pm

First Chairman wrote:I'll add to say that there is historical reason why that rule was implemented, precisely because of an incident where a tournament was held up many years back.
It's still absolutely ridiculous and is just as bad as a "no protests at all" rule. If we're saying that it's okay to knock teams out of a tournament in the name of not "holding up" the event, then let's just pick a winner out of a hat at 4 PM and send everyone else home.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by Captain Sinico » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:51 pm

Yeah, that rule's really poor.

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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by swwFCqb » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:58 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
First Chairman wrote:I'll add to say that there is historical reason why that rule was implemented, precisely because of an incident where a tournament was held up many years back.
It's still absolutely ridiculous and is just as bad as a "no protests at all" rule. If we're saying that it's okay to knock teams out of a tournament in the name of not "holding up" the event, then let's just pick a winner out of a hat at 4 PM and send everyone else home.
One of only many reasons why this format is awful.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by First Chairman » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:59 pm

I'm not saying I agree with the rule... believe me, I am not a big proponent of giving someone an automatic loss as a deterrent to frivolous protests, but it effectively chills anyone from bringing up a protest at all. That's my general problem with it. On the other hand what happened if I recall it was that someone basically decided to protest just about everything about a game and forced the protest committee to rule on every protest, effectively holding up the entire tournament. I don't have firsthand experience, but to say the least, the rule was put into place since then.

There are other things that stink about the format as well, but let's stay on the topic at hand regarding the question bidding.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by AKKOLADE » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:01 pm

Yeah, for people who have never played true OAC quiz bowl before, let me give you an idea of how to replicate this:

1) Take a #2 pencil
2) Place it in the gap between your middle and ring finger
3) Squeeze as hard as you can and suffer the pain, because OAC hates you and everything else that lives.

I have never had as negative of a quiz bowl experience as the one time, as a senior in high school, I went to an OAC format tournament at Fisher Catholic High School. The fact that the memory of how bad this was sticks with me six years later should tell you just how bad it was.

(Blatantly stolen from Zero Punctuation)
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by AKKOLADE » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:02 pm

First Chairman wrote:On the other hand what happened if I recall it was that someone basically decided to protest just about everything about a game and forced the protest committee to rule on every protest, effectively holding up the entire tournament.
Then have a clause about unsportsmanlike conduct for causing a delay in the tournament. Don't discourage people from making protests, particularly when your question provider is sometimes actively bad.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:02 pm

leftsaidfred wrote:Yeah, for people who have never played true OAC quiz bowl before, let me give you an idea of how to replicate this:

1) Take a #2 pencil
2) Place it in the gap between your middle and ring finger
3) Squeeze as hard as you can and suffer the pain, because OAC hates you and everything else that lives.
After this, you can have the Joker use your help in making the pencil disappear as a simulation of It's Academic.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by First Chairman » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:08 pm

leftsaidfred wrote:Yeah, for people who have never played true OAC quiz bowl before, let me give you an idea of how to replicate this:

1) Take a #2 pencil
2) Place it in the gap between your middle and ring finger
3) Squeeze as hard as you can and suffer the pain, because OAC hates you and everything else that lives.

I have never had as negative of a quiz bowl experience as the one time, as a senior in high school, I went to an OAC format tournament at Fisher Catholic High School. The fact that the memory of how bad this was sticks with me six years later should tell you just how bad it was.

(Blatantly stolen from Zero Punctuation)
Saxton, remember to send Fred your mock OAC round. ... then tell him about DCC's reaction to their first exposure to OAC format. :grin:
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Re: OAC Discussion 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:04 pm

If you're looking for the thread where Brian Saxton and OAC are looking for authors, it's over here.

There's a lot of people in Ohio who want to see quiz bowl improve, so helping out will give you better buzzer karma or something. Do the right thing.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by AKKOLADE » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:05 pm

First Chairman wrote:Saxton, remember to send Fred your mock OAC round. ... then tell him about DCC's reaction to their first exposure to OAC format. :grin:
I need a 2007 San Diego Padres "NO DONT" post here. At least to the first part.
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Re: Ohio Academic Competition bids for 2009

Post by MahoningQuizBowler » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:18 am

PaladinQB wrote: When I was in high school the rule was that the appealing team forfeited its next match on any lost appeal, no matter how legitimate. As it is, this hasn't been enforced to my knowledge in several years.

I believe the committee wishes to keep it as a vehicle to punish frivolous protests.
It happened in 2005 at the East Central Regional, in a winner's bracket semifinal between Edison and New Philadelphia.

All OAC Regionals are double-elimination. Edison lost the match by one point, but protested a tossup (worth 3). If they had won the protest, they would advance to the winner's bracket final -- one game away from state qualification and avoiding the loser's bracket. Losing the match would see them in the loser's bracket quarters (I think) and would have to win 3 games to get to state and 5 to win the Region. This is punishment enough, in competitive terms. Instead, the protest was denied and, with the enforcement of this exquisitely bad rule, they were eliminated.
Greg Bossick
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Director, Mahoning Quizbowl League (2004-2011, 2013-present)

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Re: OAC Discussion 08-09

Post by BobGHHS » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:40 am

Greg neglected to include the fact that at this regional, he became the first person in the history of the OAC to ever be ejected from a regional/state tournament.
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Re: OAC Discussion 08-09

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:16 am

BobGHHS wrote:Greg neglected to include the fact that at this regional, he became the first person in the history of the OAC to ever be ejected from a regional/state tournament.
what
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Re: OAC Discussion 08-09

Post by Auroni » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:24 am

are you serious?
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Re: OAC Discussion 08-09

Post by swwFCqb » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:20 pm

Serious as a heart attack my friend. If I recall correctly, he didn't really do anything ejection-worthy; it was mostly because the guy running the regional is a major jackass. This same guy uses some crazy wrestling format (instead of a standard double elim bracket) to decide who goes on to states from the EC regionals. Yet another reason why the OAC is a joke.
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Re: OAC Discussion 08-09

Post by MahoningQuizBowler » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:14 am

Thank you, Bob...

Yes, it's true. The problems started the year before when, during a winner's bracket quarterfinal, I was reading and one of the coaches frantically called timeout as I was reading the first question of the lightning round (the last 20 questions of the match that can only be loosely defined as tossups)...to tell me her team had heard these questions already. THAT caused problems, and I remember making a comment to both teams that if the tournament had been run in Youngstown, this wouldn't have happened. Apparently the scorekeeper went back and told the TD, and he wasn't too happy.

The year in question, I didn't have a dog in the fight. I showed up to read because, according to OAC regulations, each team has to name a reader to be available for the tournament. The champion of the league I run (Mahoning County, Ohio) had named me, but when I arrived I was told I was not going to be needed due to having more readers than necessary. That was ok, until someone else from Mahoning showed up who had never read at this particular Regional before. I asked him how he heard about it, and he said the tournament director called him due to a reader shortage. :w-hat:

So I keep score for the first three rounds. Rounds 1 and 2 pass pretty much without incident, but Round 3 was a hoot. At least twice, the reader accepted answers from both sides after the time for the question had expired. When I brought this to her attention, I was told in no uncertain terms that she was "in charge of the match" and she would accept any answer she wanted to accept. After that round, a former wrestling coach/retired educator/non-quizbowl coaching person otherwise known as the TD told me not to be involved in any other rounds. Right, fine, moving on.

After lunch, which some teams completely missed because of the bracketing screwups that are rampant with this tournament, the forfeiture incident below took place. My team had already been eliminated, and I was sticking around to watch a few others teams I had seen throughout the year and basically report to the rest of the Ohio crew who would be advancing to state the following week. After the Edison/New Philadelphia incident, I spoke in strong terms (no profanity, though) to the TD about his general incompetence.

The final straw, for him, was after the loser's bracket semifinal (4th place game). There was a tossup in American Government on something worded like "this last really controversial election before Bush v Gore"...the losing team buzzed and said "Hayes v Tilden" and were ruled incorrect straight away. The question was asking for the loser -- it was read to completion and the winning team got it. In retrospect, it did not swing the match, but immediately after the tossup the losing coach made his protest known (they were going to lose anyway so no additional penalty). I went up to the coach, who was sitting 5 rows from the stage, and commended him for standing up for his team, and pointed where in the OAC rules it says that answers can only be ruled wrong for additional incorrect information, noting that the question had not clearly identified that it was looking for the loser until the end. The fact that I was talking to a coach about one of his readers was enough to send the TD into a fit of exasperation, and it was at that point that he told me that security was going to be notified and I was going to be removed from the hall. I left before that became necessary, but yes, I am the first and to my knowledge only person to be ejected from said tournament...and I'm damn fine with it. Asshattery of that level shouldn't be tolerated, and I never went back to that event and have no plans to return.
Greg Bossick
Executive Director, Ohio Academic Competition (2013-2016)
Director, Mahoning Quizbowl League (2004-2011, 2013-present)

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