2008 Pre-Season Goldfish Championship: 10/15/2008

[intothenegs]

When can we expect to see results?

And is the packet cleared for discussion?

[pblessman]

So sorry for the delay... I have waited for the results from Maggie Walker and Bergen County, but they have not come in. So... without further ado: Here are the Goldfish results for the Fall of 2008! Congratulations to Rockford Auburn of Illinois for a truly impressive effort: 785 points!!!!! Outscoring the next-best opponent by 135 is quite a feat. I will get the wheels cranking on calculating head-to-head scores and should have that completed by this weekend at the very latest. Please feel free to discuss the question set on the board.

1 Rockford Auburn 785
2 James Monroe A 650
3 Walt Whitman 645
4 Kellenberg A 615
5 Loyola 520
6 Adair County 480
7 Champlain Valley A 430
8 Kellenberg B 420
9 Culver A 415
10 Harrison A 410
11 Brindlee Mountain A 405
12 MAST A 380
13T Caesar Rodney 375
13T Champlain Valley B 375
13T New Trier 375
16 NCHS 360
17 Bromfield School 340
18 MAST E 335
19 Buffalo Grove 330
20 JFK 320
21T Culver B 290
21T Fishers 290
23T Chatham B 270
23T Tippecanoe 270
25T Chatham A 260
25T Harrison B 260
27 Harrison C 255
28T James Monroe B 250
28T North White A 250
30 DAR A 245
31 Kellenberg C 240
32 Brindlee Mountain B 235
33T Champlain Valley C 215
33T Wheaton North 215
35T Chatham C 200
35T Eastside A 200
37 Auburn (VA) A 185
38T MAST B 170
38T Verona 170
40T Barrington F/S 165
40T Essex 165
42 St. James 150
43T Culver C 130
43T Dolgeville A 130
43T North White B 130
46 Harrison D 125
47T Culver D 100
47T Dolgeville B 100
49 MAST C 90
50 Kellenberg D 80
51 DAR B 75
52T Auburn (VA) B 70
52T Culver E 70
54 Eastside B 65
55 MAST D 60
56 Chatham D 40

[vcuEvan]

Maggie Walker sent in their data last Wed. Please check to see if you have it. If not I can resend it tomorrow.

You should probably check your spam folder or ask Dr. Barnes to resubmit.

[jbarnes112358]

Maggie Walker sent in their data last Wed. Please check to see if you have it. If not I can resend it tomorrow.

You should probably check your spam folder or ask Dr. Barnes to resubmit.

Correct. I tried to send it several times and a couple of different ways, with and without an attachment. But, Mr. Blessman does not seem to be receiving anything from me. I must be considered a spammer. I hate to do it this way, but I will put the data here and maybe he can score it. If there is a better way someone can tell me.

Team Name Maggie Walker Governor's School
TU Ring TU Bon
1 500 10 30
2 60 10 20
3 48 10 30
4 69 10 30
5 35 15 20
6 33 10 30
7 31 15 20
8 37 15 20
9
10 29 -5
11 45 15 30
12 90 10 30
13 73 10 30
14 63 10 30
15 49 10 20
16 43 -5
17 21 -5
18 57 10 20
19 7 15 20
20 58 10 10
21 9 15 0
22 13 15 30
23 61 10 30 total 1-24
24 24 15 10 685
25 52 15
26 50 10
27 36 15
28 66 10
29 73 10
30 71 10

[JackGlerum]

Please feel free to discuss the question set on the board.

I don't recall much, but I remember a 100 Years of Solitude question with Ursula Iguaran in the first 5 words. Seemed like a FIFTEEEEEN to me (though there were no powers).

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Please feel free to discuss the question set on the board.

I don't recall much, but I remember a 100 Years of Solitude question with Ursula Iguaran in the first 5 words. Seemed like a FIFTEEEEEN to me (though there were no powers).

I agree heartily with this statement. That was pretty ridiculous. I think I remember something else not quite right, but now I've forgotten.

[Sir Thopas]

Oh hey, that sounds like a BETTER version of a tossup that came up last year

"The number in the title can't possibly be literal, because Ursula Iguaran..."

[pblessman]

I have put MW's scores into my master spreadsheet- they did indeed score 685, placing them goldfish second! I'll start cranking the handle on my head-to-head computational device...

[gabjoh]

I sent out our spreadsheets to you at, according to my calculations, 11 PM on the Tuesday. Apparently that did not go through. So, I have posted them on Google Docs as public spreadsheets. Here are the links:

Our A team

Our B team

Our C team

[Blackboard Monitor Vimes]

Oh hey, that sounds like a BETTER version of a tossup that came up last year

"The number in the title can't possibly be literal, because Ursula Iguaran..."

Please tell me you're kidding...

[jbarnes112358]

I sent out our spreadsheets to you at, according to my calculations, 11 PM on the Tuesday. Apparently that did not go through. So, I have posted them on Google Docs as public spreadsheets.

That is a good way to do it. Thanks for the tip. Google wins again.

[pblessman]

Google docs... nice! Much more elegant than attachments... I was however already tabulating, so I had to interrupt the whole circus and start over... which I'll do tomorrow. My toddler twins are on a schedule which is incompatible with tabulating goldfish data past midnight. I hope to have this data tomorrow (Friday) night, Saturday at the latest. Oh... One more thing: If any of you have not paid yet, please send me a payment through PayPal ASAP or send me an e-mail once you've sent the check.

[pblessman]

And here are the head-to-head results! Based on the goldfish scores, it should come as no surprise, but nevertheless this is an impressive performance: Rockford Auburn (IL) has won the Fall 2008 Goldfish Head-to-head with a perfect record of 59-0! Below is the list of the standings, and a detailed scoresheet with results and stats for each game played can be found at http://pblessman.googlepages.com/Fall_2 ... o_head.xls. Thanks so much to everybody who played! I apologize (once again) about the delay on getting this posted- I will have to find a better way to make sure all the scoresheets reach me next time!

Team Record (W-L)
1 Rockford Auburn 59-0-0
2 Maggie Walker 58-1-0
3t Bergen County A 56-3-0
3t James Monroe A 56-3-0
3t Walt Whitman 56-3-0
6 Kellenberg A 54-5-0
7 Loyola 53-6-0
8 Adair County 52-7-0
9 Brindlee Mountain A 51-8-0
10 Kellenberg B 50-9-0
11t Bromfield School 46-13-0
11t Champlain Valley B 46-13-0
11t Culver A 46-13-0
11t Harrison A 46-13-0
15 Caesar Rodney 45-14-0
16 Bergen County B 44-15-0
17t Champlain Valley A 43-16-0
17t JFK 43-16-0
19 NCHS 42-17-0
20 Buffalo Grove 41-18-0
21 MAST A 40-19-0
22 Fishers 38-21-0
23 Tippecanoe 36-23-0
24t MAST E 35-24-0
24t New Trier 35-24-0
26 Brindlee Mountain B 34-25-0
27 Chatham A 33-26-0
28 Harrison C 32-27-0
29t Bergen County C 30-29-0
29t Kellenberg C 30-29-0
31 James Monroe B 27-32-0
32t Barrington F/S 26-33-0
32t Culver B 26-33-0
34 North White A 26-33-0
35t Auburn (VA) A 25-34-0
35t Harrison B 25-34-0
37t Chatham B 24-35-0
37t Wheaton North 24-35-0
39 Champlain Valley C 21-38-0
40t DAR A 20-39-0
40t Essex 20-39-0
42t Chatham C 19-40-0
42t Eastside A 19-40-0
44 Harrison D 16-43-0
45 St. James 15-44-0
46 Dolgeville A 14-45-0
47t Dolgeville B 13-46-0
47t MAST B 13-46-0
49t Culver C 10-49-0
49t North White B 10-49-0
49t Verona 10-49-0
52t Culver D 6-53-0
52t Culver E 6-53-0
52t DAR B 6-53-0
52t Kellenberg D 6-53-0
56 Auburn (VA) B 4-55-0
57t Eastside B 3-56-0
57t MAST C 3-56-0
57t MAST D 3-56-0
60 Chatham D 0-59-0

[Judson Laipply]

If I am correct, this means that 2 kellenberg teams are qualified for HSNCT?

[ClemsonQB]

I don't see anything earlier in the thread about nationals qualification, and I believe a lot of people would be up in arms if it were possible to do so on only 24 questions.

[Ondes Martenot]

I highly doubt this tournament being a qualifier, although maybe I'm wrong....

[Judson Laipply]

Check the NAQT Website... I just did and apparently only up to place 9 does(15 %) so B team has to continue to do well or just be a walk on team like last year

[Sir Thopas]

Check the NAQT Website... I just did and apparently only up to place 9 does(15 %) so B team has to continue to do well or just be a walk on team like last year

"Schools qualify to send teams to the HS NCT through their performance at NAQT invitational events and NAQT State Championships held throughout the year."

This was neither.

[Mechanical Beasts]

The data will be analyzed to come up with two groups of results: The first list will show how many points each team scored against their goldfish on 24 TU/Bon, while the second group of data will show head-to-head scores for all possible permutations of teams. This means that if a hundred teams compete in this tournament, you will be able to see how you stack up against ninety-nine other teams!

Maybe I'm stupid, but is this actually different data? Like, if I score better than everyone else and finish first, then I'll be undefeated; if I'm second in scoring, I'll be one-defeated, et cetera. Can't I infer the head to head data just by giving myself one fewer loss than my place? Or do you just assert that you make this easier for teams?

[Ondes Martenot]

I'm not sure if I'm following you completely...Do you mean that the Goldfish rankings are the same as the head to head rankings? A team can get in first place in the Goldfish by answering everying question and thirtying every bonus but finish low in the head to head ranking because they buzzed in on the last word for every question (kind of an extreme example I admit....)

[Mechanical Beasts]

I'm not sure if I'm following you completely...Do you mean that the Goldfish rankings are the same as the head to head rankings? A team can get in first place in the Goldfish by answering everying question and thirtying every bonus but finish low in the head to head ranking because they buzzed in on the last word for every question (kind of an extreme example I admit....)

Oh, I see. That "buzz" value really DOES mean something!

[Judson Laipply]

Finishing in the top 15% of the field at any event that uses NAQT questions. A list of such upcoming events is available on the NAQT website. This computation "rounds up," so a tournament with 15 teams results in three (2.25 rounded up) invitations. This includes traditional one-day tournaments, quiz bowl leagues, televised tournaments, and all other events that use questions provided by NAQT whether or not they use NAQT's official format and rules. In general, every team tied for a spot in the top 15% receives an invitation, though NAQT reserves the right to break ties reported by the host at its own discretion (and so award fewer berths).


The Goldfish is NAQT questions.

[Judson Laipply]

Check the NAQT Website... I just did and apparently only up to place 9 does(15 %) so B team has to continue to do well or just be a walk on team like last year

"Schools qualify to send teams to the HS NCT through their performance at NAQT invitational events and NAQT State Championships held throughout the year."

This was neither.

Teams qualify for the HS NCT by their performance at tournaments held throughout the year using questions supplied by NAQT. A list of upcoming events may be found on NAQT's website

Where did you find that quote? EDIT: Found it... However, if you click on the link, it leads you to NAQT's official qualification policy.

[AKKOLADE]

If this is a NAQT qualifier, I am going to flip out.

This isn't a tournament. You play one packet of questions. I don't care about the fact that your buzz time and all that crap is compared to other schools, this is one set of questions. That is not enough to reliably differentiate from other teams. If you want to qualify for the High School National Championship Tournament, go to a tournament.

[Sir Thopas]

If this is a NAQT qualifier, I am going to flip out.

This isn't a tournament. You play one packet of questions. I don't care about the fact that your buzz time and all that crap is compared to other schools, this is one set of questions. That is not enough to reliably differentiate from other teams. If you want to qualify for the High School National Championship Tournament, go to a tournament.

this

[Mechanical Beasts]

Yeah: Tournaments are played on more than one packet. Because, you know, that tells you a statistically meaningful amount about a team. I know I definitely played NAQT packets in high school where all my pet subjects came up at once (bad Huis Clos leadins, easy organic chemistry, et cetera), but I also never played an entire IS set that contained nothing but those pet subjects.

Also, from a cursory glance, by the way, there aren't any teams that are substantially different between their first and second rankings. I could be wrong.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Hard to believe that a one-packet "tournament" that's extremely easy to do something incorrect with (in terms of numbers and reporting scores) would qualify as a... qualifier. But regardless, we'll probably need an NAQT spokesperson to clear up why it's not.

[Mechanical Beasts]

Or downright fraudulent.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Yeah, i didn't want to be the one who said that... but yes.

[pblessman]

Geez... this board turned grumpy pretty quickly... Several things to say here:

1. The Goldfish isn't an NAQT-qualifying "tournament" (If it was, I would have advertised it as such. None of my mailings indicated this.)
2. Even if it was, nine teams would qualify, and I am pretty sure that all teams on this list will qualify at some other point:

1 Rockford Auburn 59-0-0
2 Maggie Walker 58-1-0
3t Bergen County A 56-3-0
3t James Monroe A 56-3-0
3t Walt Whitman 56-3-0
6 Kellenberg A 54-5-0
7 Loyola 53-6-0
8 Adair County 52-7-0
9 Brindlee Mountain A 51-8-0

I mean... seriously! ALL of these teams were at NAQT last year, and all but one made the play-offs... Seems like we're getting a lot of emotional energy going here over a double non-issue (i.e. you can't qualify this way, and even if you could, nobody would qualify who shouldn't).

Alrighty... back to my quest of finding a place that carries the Big Ten Network so I can see part of the Northwerstern game...

[Mechanical Beasts]

Don't worry, man. I was just saying that if it were qualifying, per the justification that student posted, then it would be a ridiculous policy to adopt. You're certainly correct to say that all those teams will qualify at other events.

[rhentzel]

The Goldfish isn't an NAQT-qualifying "tournament" (If it was, I would have advertised it as such. None of my mailings indicated this.)

It is correct that Goldfish-style tournaments are not qualifiers for the High School National Championship Tournament; this is for pretty much the exact reasons that people have already pointed out.

I agree that our website could be interpreted differently, as this is an event that "uses NAQT questions." That text was written before the Goldfish existed and we didn't think to update it to allow for the existence of this kind of tournament. I will do so in the next couple of days.

NAQT may, of course, consider Goldfish results when making wildcard selections (like just about anything else).