HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

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HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Magister Ludi » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:50 pm

Please feel free to discuss the questions from HSAPQ's Fall 2008 sets in this thread. Right now only the first sample packet from ACF-2 is posted and viable for discussion, but as the other sets are released please comment on them in this thread.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:41 pm

There were definitely some typos that made it harder to read, and the complete lack of pronunciation guides (except for one for a person with a hard-to-pronounce name) was an annoyance. Also, there was a bonus that had "something about science" as an answer. It left out the crucial word "that." Without that word, the question's answer is actually "something else about science." I don't remember the exact text of the question, but I remember bringing it up to Lee. Luckily, it didn't cause any problems.

Redacted. Ted, maybe you should clarify that precisely one round of HSAPQ questions is actually open for discussion. —Mgmt.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:50 pm

Renamed the thread as it was horribly misleading.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by Magister Ludi » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:34 pm

Thanks, Fred.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by ihavenoidea » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:01 pm

Groups of people in French history who didn't do too well? Of course it's Huguenots! Pretty transparent in my opinion.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by cornfused » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:11 pm

I have a few objections about the Messiah tossup. First of all, it includes a lot of trivial information (libretto by, conducted by) and very few actual names. Also, "Comfort ye, my people" and "Ev'ry valley shall be exalted" are in fact the first two works after the overture but are not at all the most notable. Was there a reason for picking those two?

I feel like the inclusion of more famous choruses and arias like "Worthy is the lamb that is slain," "Behold the Lamb of God," "The Trumpet Shall Sound," or "I know that my Redeemer liveth" would've given the tossup more substantive clues. Also, Mozart did a notable orchestration - that's a midlevel clue.

Basically, I felt like a lot of the space that could've been used on substantive clues was used for almanacky stuff.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by cornfused » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:13 pm

Guy has detailed an inaccuracy in the vowel tossup in the other thread.


That's a very nice Bizet tossup, though.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by Auroni » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:14 pm

heh, I wrote it.


I also think that Simone de Beauvoir might have done better as a bonus part at this level.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by yoda4554 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:19 pm

cornfused wrote:I have a few objections about the Messiah tossup. First of all, it includes a lot of trivial information (libretto by, conducted by) and very few actual names. Also, "Comfort ye, my people" and "Ev'ry valley shall be exalted" are in fact the first two works after the overture but are not at all the most notable. Was there a reason for picking those two?

I feel like the inclusion of more famous choruses and arias like "Worthy is the lamb that is slain," "Behold the Lamb of God," "The Trumpet Shall Sound," or "I know that my Redeemer liveth" would've given the tossup more substantive clues. Also, Mozart did a notable orchestration - that's a midlevel clue.

Basically, I felt like a lot of the space that could've been used on substantive clues was used for almanacky stuff.
I find the idea that librettists are not notable in general to be a bit odd, given how closely they work with composers, and a bit inaccurate in this particular case (hey, there was a whole article in the Times a couple years back about how Jennens supposedly made "Hallelujah" all anti-Semitic). Also, "Ev'ry valley shall be exalted" is a moderately famous part.

The only gripe I have on this packet, from a skim, is that, as Dobbin and George Osborne are the twomain male characters in Vanity Fair--i.e., the most important characters other than Amelia and Becky--they should not be the lead-in.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by cornfused » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:56 pm

yoda4554 wrote:I find the idea that librettists are not notable in general to be a bit odd, given how closely they work with composers, and a bit inaccurate in this particular case (hey, there was a whole article in the Times a couple years back about how Jennens supposedly made "Hallelujah" all anti-Semitic).
Well, that would've been a great leadin, then. I'm not saying that librettists aren't notable at all, I'm just saying that leading with "Here is the conductor of the first performance. Here is the librettist." is something I consider to be the music version of "Here is the first line." in literature tossups.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by ihavenoidea » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:46 am

I do agree with Greg that the Charles Jennens clue was misplaced.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 Sample Packet Discussion

Post by Magister Ludi » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:41 pm

The entire ACF-2 set is available at the HSAPQ website and is free to discuss.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by millionwaves » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:35 pm

Thread title changed to accurately reflect what's up for discussion here.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by David Riley » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:54 pm

From the sample, and given the notes above, I love these questions and can't wait for the tournament that Loyola and Auburn will co-host on Feb 7. Great job!
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by quizbowllee » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:04 pm

I haven't had time to look into this personally, but I had a few coaches and moderators tell me during our tournament that there was a remarkable similarity between several of the questions in this HSAPQ set and the Harvard Fall set. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to look into this very much, but apparently many of the teams in attendance had recently been using the HFT packets in practice and noticed this (Brindlee Mountain had not - so I didn't notice). It might be a coincidence, but it might be worth looking at. If this had been only one person who mentioned this, I would have chalked it up to coincidence. But seeing as it was at least four different people from three different teams, I think it is worth mentioning.

Someone familiar with both sets who has the time needs to corroborate or debunk this observation.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:18 pm

That's interesting; I'd be particularly interested in finding out more about this because to my knowledge only Ted and I wrote for both HFT and HSAPQ (though I no longer do the latter). I know that I kept careful track of my answer choice for both HSAPQ and HFT and, while it's possible that I wrote two tossups on the same subject for both sets, I would be pretty surprised.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by quizbowllee » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:11 pm

I don't know what to think. I spent less than 5 minutes looking at the two sets and came up with these in just that short amount of time. While not word-for-word, many of the clues are the same. I can see how a team that had spent the previous few practices studying the HFT would have a big advantage on this HSAPQ set:

HFT:
One of his characters calls women “sweet worriations” in “Rude Awakening,” and one of his poems begins when a teacher instructs “Go home and write / a page tonight / and let that page come out of you” in “Theme for English B.” The speaker of one of his poems says he “slept like a rock or a man that’s dead” after “down on Lennox Avenue” he heard a “drowsy, syncopated tune.” In another poem, he asks if the title object “crust and sugar over” or “just sags / like a heavy load.” FTP, name this poet of “A Dream Deferred” and “A Negro Speaks of Rivers.”
ANSWER: Langston Hughes

HSAPQ:
In one poem, this poet compared a Caribbean sunset to “God having a hemorrhage.” Another of this
writer's poems ends “Beautiful, also, is the sun. / Beautiful, also, are the souls of my people.” This poet
wrote about a singer who “slept like a rock or a man that's dead” after “droning a drowsy syncopated
tune, / Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon,” in “The Weary Blues.” His poetry collections include
Fine Clothes to the Jew and Shakespeare in Harlem. For 10 points, name this author of Montage of a Dream Deferred and “The Negro Speaks of Rivers.”
ANSWER: Langston Hughes

HFT:
This novel opens with Petrarchan sonnets by Phoebus and Orlando. Its title character wants to retire with an innkeeper, in whose inn he had reunited Cardenio and Luscinda. That title character’s epitaph is written by Sanson Carrasco, who worries about his dealings with the barber and the curate. It ends after Carrasco vanquishes the title character while dressed as the Knight of the White Moon, ending his attempts to do good to honor Dulcinea. Featuring Sancho Panza, this is, FTP, what novel about a bumbling knight by Miguel de Cervantes?
ANSWER: Don Quixote de La Mancha

HSAPQ:
In one of his books, Elicio and Erastro both fall in love with the title woman, Galatea. Another of his
works consist of a series of short stories including “The Jealous Estremaduran” and “The Deceitful
Marriage.” In addition to the Exemplary Novels, he wrote a book in which Samson Carrasco is hired to
bring back a character who rides Rocinante and employs Sancho Panza. For 10 points, name this
Spanish novelist of Don Quixote de la Mancha.
ANSWER: Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

HFT:
This man’s daughter endorsed Obama and claimed that he would have been a Barack supporter as well if he were still alive. For ten points each –
(10) Identify this governor who wanted “segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”
ANSWER: George Wallace
(10) Both George Wallace and his wife Lurleen served as governor of this Southern state.
ANSWER: Alabama
(10) Wallace was paralyzed while seeking the 1972 Democratic presidential nomination when Arthur Bremer shot him in a supermarket parking lot in this state.
ANSWER: Maryland

HSAPQ:
This man was the subject of the PBS documentary Settin' the Woods on Fire. He was succeeded as
governor by his wife Lurleen, and he claimed that the only four letter words the students who
protested against him didn't know were "soap" and "work." He ran on the American Independent
Party's ticket for president, and he was shot in Laurel, Maryland by Arthur Bremer. For 10 points, name
this man who, as governor, stood in front of the schoolhouse door at the University of Alabama in a
symbolic gesture against integration.
ANSWER: George Wallace

HFT:
This author wrote about an unlucky youth with the moniker “pot” who is beaten by his mother in “How Much Land Does a Man Need?”, and Nikita murders the illegitimate baby he fathered with his own stepdaughter in his play The Power of Darkness. The title character of his last novel is a Muslim Caucasian warrior who is betrayed by his own chieftain Shamil, and in another novel Pozdnyshev murders his wife after her affair with a violinist. Along with Hadji Murad and The Kreutzer Sonata, he wrote about and a judge, who befriends Gerasim while slowly dying after bruising his side. FTP, name this author who wrote about Pierre Bezukhov and Natasha Rostova in War and Peace.
ANSWER: Count Lev Nikolayevich Tolstoy

HSAPQ:
In one story by this author, a man becomes lost in thick snow on his way to sell a grove, causing him
to attempt to save the life of his servant Nikita. In addition to “Master and Man,” this author wrote a
story about Podznshev, who murders his wife after catching her in his house with a violinist, and a story
about a magistrate served by Gerasim. This author of “The Kreutzer Sonata” and “The Death of Ivan
Ilych” also wrote a historical novel about Pierre Bezukhov set during Napoleon's invasion of Russia. For
10 points, name this author of War and Peace.
ANSWER: Leo Tolstoy [or Lev Nikolayovich Tolstoy]
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:35 pm

Yes, I guess all of us writing high school questions should just never write any more questions on topics that have come up in the past.
Last edited by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) on Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:39 pm

Yeah, this "evidence" means absolutely nothing. I may go into more detail after my last final, but this is just silly.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:40 pm

Does every clue in every high school set have to have different clues? Also, I hear teams that play on harder packets are more likely to do better on easier ones.

As for the "evidence": Rob's right. I could go on a detailed rant on why this evidence is full of it, but I won't.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Auroni » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:46 pm

I just don't see anything to indicate that these questions were recycled. Yes, the answer choices are the same, but each tossup has enough unique clues.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by quizbowllee » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:52 pm

Like I said, I didn't notice it. I haven't made any decision one way or the other. These examples are just from a quick glance. I haven't seen anything that makes me think anything shady transpired. However, more than a couple of coaches were actually quite angry at the tournament. I haven't seen anything that necessarily warrants that reaction. Also, I've been pouring over the questions since that initial post and haven't found anything else so far.

So far I regret bringing it up... :oops:

But, like I said, some people were almost irate about it. Clearly those people know more about the perceived similarities than I do. I wish they would speak up.....
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:03 pm

quizbowllee wrote:Like I said, I didn't notice it. I haven't made any decision one way or the other.
Are you thick in the head? There's enough real plagiarism in qb without having to worry about this which is clearly the work of two people writing independently. This isn't even the case of people taking someone else's words and rephrasing as THERE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CLUES APART FROM SEVERAL BASIC FACTS THAT ONE WOULD ORDINARILY USE.
These examples are just from a quick glance. I haven't seen anything that makes me think anything shady transpired. However, more than a couple of coaches were actually quite angry at the tournament. I haven't seen anything that necessarily warrants that reaction. Also, I've been pouring over the questions since that initial post and haven't found anything else so far.
Shouldn't you have poured over that BEFORE you posted? You know instead of wasting everyone's time and angering the people who produced the sets by putting them in a defensive posture?
But, like I said, some people were almost irate about it. Clearly those people know more about the perceived similarities than I do. I wish they would speak up.....
Or they don't realize that sometimes information repeats between sets, especially basic giveaway information. And that's why we say: read old packets to get better at quizbowl.

By the way, incidentally this HSAPQ packet was first used on October 25, whereas Harvard Fall was first used Nov. 15. Chew on that.

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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Sir Thopas » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:14 pm

allythin wrote:a bunch of stuff
Hey you. You're a [redacted] who just made a superfluous post.

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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by No Rules Westbrook » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:15 pm

...

Allow me to make the decision for you, then. Your evidence proves less than nothing. Stop making serious accusations without proof.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by quizbowllee » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:59 pm

Like I said, I'm sorry I brought it up. I should've looked into it more before bringing it up. But, I heard so many people talking about the similarities that I thought I would mention it. Seeing as this is a thread for discussion of that set, I figured maybe it would spark some conversation among those who made the observations. The "evidence" that I cited was admittedly weak. Granted, I did only a very cursory glance at some the questions between classes today. I had never seen the HFT set before, but I noticed some minor similarities. I HOPE that some of the people who were talking about it so much at our tournament will see this and speak up. If not, then I guess I will be the dumb patsy.

Again, some of the folks at the tournament were discussion specific supposedly "word-for-word" repeats in the questions. Maybe they were mistaken; I don't know. All I do know is that I wish I hadn't mentioned it. I'm sorry.

Edited because someone changed my original post.
Last edited by quizbowllee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:08 pm

Hey, guys, scratch those trigger fingers: Lee hasn't accused anyone of anything here. He said other people said some stuff, then posted similarities he's saw.
Lee, I think that one thing that can make the similarities seem more prominent than they actually are (and, by the way, from what you've posted, they're not very important) is the fact that both these sets are written in the same (uncommon for high school) style. Like, if we look at the Langston Hughes questions, they both take the form of sequentially revealing plot points of works, then the names of works: that's a good, collegiate style of question that's very popular in HSAPQ sets and in the HFT set, but will likely be seen very few other places in high school. I see questions like this PRETTY MUCH EVERYWHERE I GO, but I might get suspicious if I didn't know any better and only saw such questions at two tournaments and nowhere else.

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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by First Chairman » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:09 pm

Lee... yes, this is a situation where I'd rather have the complainers provide the evidence. It's too difficult to always come up with different clues for material that should be considered "general knowledge." Now if there was evidence that the questions were pulled from the hsquizbowl packet archive, I'd have a fit.

Agreeing with Mike... don't shoot the messenger.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Joshua Rutsky » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:28 pm

quizbowllee wrote:I haven't had time to look into this personally, but I had a few coaches and moderators tell me during our tournament that there was a remarkable similarity between several of the questions in this HSAPQ set and the Harvard Fall set. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to look into this very much, but apparently many of the teams in attendance had recently been using the HFT packets in practice and noticed this (Brindlee Mountain had not - so I didn't notice). It might be a coincidence, but it might be worth looking at. If this had been only one person who mentioned this, I would have chalked it up to coincidence. But seeing as it was at least four different people from three different teams, I think it is worth mentioning.

Someone familiar with both sets who has the time needs to corroborate or debunk this observation.

OK, first of all, I'm one of the people who noticed the similarity and mentioned it to Lee, so if you've got flames, bring 'em here too. Lee mentioned multiple similarities and asked for comment, not to be told that he's an idiot bringing up an invalid point, and since when is it out of bounds to question the quality or scope of content when you have a reasonable question? What constitutes proof of a recycled question? Here's what rang my bell and made me wonder:

HFT Packet 3, bonus 9:
He founded L’Année Sociologique, the first journal of sociology, and was the uncle of Marcel Mauss. For ten points each –
(10) Identify this French sociologist who wrote The Elementary Forms of Religious Life.
ANSWER: Émile Durkheim
(10) Durkheim’s most famous work may be an analysis of the egoistic, altruistic, anomic, and fatalistic kinds of this way to die.
ANSWER: suicide
(10) In this work, Durkheim attributed the title concept to the changes in social structure resulting from population growth, rather than to a conscious effort to be more productive.
ANSWER: The Division of Labor in Society (or De la division de travail social)

HSAPQ Packet 2, Tossup 18. This author pointed to the universality of the title phenomenon to claim it is functional and
necessary in On the Normality of Crime. He used the beliefs of Aboriginal tribes to classify totemism as
a type of religion and another of his works looks at how the title specialization affects capitalist
societies. His most famous work looks at egoistic, altruistic, fatalistic, and anomic varieties of the title
phenomenon.
For 10 points, name this author of The Elementary Forms of Religious Life and The
Division of Labour in Society, the French sociologist author of Suicide.
ANSWER: Emile Durkheim

HSAPQ Packet 2, Question 19: Its namesake parameter is multiplied by meridional distance in the Sverdrup balance, and it is a
dominating force in the Ekman layer. It is an alternate name of the mass flow meter and causes the
barotropic and baroclinic differentiation of the Rossby waves. The misconception that a bathtub drains
different ways in different hemispheres is often attributed to it, and this effect can be observed
indirectly through Foucault’s pendulum. Introduced along with the centrifugal force in rotating frames
of reference, for 10 points, name this fictitious deflection of moving entities.
ANSWER: Coriolis effect

NFT Packet 3, Bonus 13. Answer some questions about rotations for ten points each –
(10) The calculation of this quantity, the rotational analogue of mass, obeys the parallel axis theorem.
ANSWER: moment of inertia
(10) The cross product of lever arm and force, it is the time derivative of the angular momentum.
ANSWER: torque
(10) This effect commonly explains why you typically perceive a force in a rotating reference frame even when no force is acting on you.
ANSWER: Coriolis effect (or Coriolis force)



Now, is this conclusive evidence of packet plagiarism? Of course not. The wording of the Durkheim reference, however, sounded almost identical to me (we had been practicing with the HFT packet earlier in the week), and I remembered having seen a Coriolis bonus almost immediately afterward. What are the odds of that? Are Durkheim and the Coriolis effect so common in packets that such similarities are meaningless?

In any case, I don't think that either Lee or myself are out of line in a thread created specifically to discuss these questions in mentioning that we saw some similarities to another recent, high-quality packet that was produced by groups with some common authors, and I sure don't see Lee throwing around any sort of accusation short of saying that it was mentioned and that he'd like input on it from people who have read through both sets. Lee has been around quiz bowl for quite some time, and he reads packets. I've been around for a while now, and I read them too. We all do. Yes, sometimes common clues and answers crop up, and no one is disputing that, nor is anyone saying that HSAPQ is doing anything other than producing good material. Both Lee and I have commented to that effect on this website more than once, and I don't think either of us is changing our point of view on that. I do, however, think that it is legitimate criticism to call attention to what we noticed, and that this is a reasonable forum for that. From my limited communication with HSAPQ, I found them to be very responsive to criticism and interested in hearing what people who used their packets had to say; if they weren't, they wouldn't have posted this thread.

Now, if there's a stat-head out there or a long-time forum member who wants to tell me politely (or even vaguely politely) why I shouldn't see common phrasing and answer as being statistically relevant, or if people want to point out that seeing a couple of common answers that close to one another in a packet occurs from time to time, I'm happy to hear it. But I stand by my single observation: that I noticed something strongly similar when I read the packet, and that when I went back to the HFT packet, I was able to find what rang the bell.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:40 pm

Joshua Rutsky wrote:OK, first of all, I'm one of the people who noticed the similarity and mentioned it to Lee, so if you've got flames, bring 'em here too. Lee mentioned multiple similarities and asked for comment, not to be told that he's an idiot bringing up an invalid point, and since when is it out of bounds to question the quality or scope of content when you have a reasonable question? What constitutes proof of a recycled question? Here's what rang my bell and made me wonder:

HFT Packet 3, bonus 9:
He founded L’Année Sociologique, the first journal of sociology, and was the uncle of Marcel Mauss. For ten points each –
(10) Identify this French sociologist who wrote The Elementary Forms of Religious Life.
ANSWER: Émile Durkheim
(10) Durkheim’s most famous work may be an analysis of the egoistic, altruistic, anomic, and fatalistic kinds of this way to die.
ANSWER: suicide
(10) In this work, Durkheim attributed the title concept to the changes in social structure resulting from population growth, rather than to a conscious effort to be more productive.
ANSWER: The Division of Labor in Society (or De la division de travail social)

HSAPQ Packet 2, Tossup 18. This author pointed to the universality of the title phenomenon to claim it is functional and
necessary in On the Normality of Crime. He used the beliefs of Aboriginal tribes to classify totemism as
a type of religion and another of his works looks at how the title specialization affects capitalist
societies. His most famous work looks at egoistic, altruistic, fatalistic, and anomic varieties of the title
phenomenon.
For 10 points, name this author of The Elementary Forms of Religious Life and The
Division of Labour in Society, the French sociologist author of Suicide.
ANSWER: Emile Durkheim

HSAPQ Packet 2, Question 19: Its namesake parameter is multiplied by meridional distance in the Sverdrup balance, and it is a
dominating force in the Ekman layer. It is an alternate name of the mass flow meter and causes the
barotropic and baroclinic differentiation of the Rossby waves. The misconception that a bathtub drains
different ways in different hemispheres is often attributed to it, and this effect can be observed
indirectly through Foucault’s pendulum. Introduced along with the centrifugal force in rotating frames
of reference, for 10 points, name this fictitious deflection of moving entities.
ANSWER: Coriolis effect

NFT Packet 3, Bonus 13. Answer some questions about rotations for ten points each –
(10) The calculation of this quantity, the rotational analogue of mass, obeys the parallel axis theorem.
ANSWER: moment of inertia
(10) The cross product of lever arm and force, it is the time derivative of the angular momentum.
ANSWER: torque
(10) This effect commonly explains why you typically perceive a force in a rotating reference frame even when no force is acting on you.
ANSWER: Coriolis effect (or Coriolis force)
Durkheim clues: the part you underlined is a fairly common clue at the college level Durkheim's Suicide.

Recycled questions, in my opinion, feature the exact same clues in the exact same order, usually copied verbatim.

EDIT: See, you should tell your players that they should be hearing such bells, and this means they should buzz. I have never read anything by Durkheim, but I personally beat the crap out of my buzzer when I hear that clue. This is what we call "frauding."
Last edited by dtaylor4 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Magister Ludi » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:42 pm

Neither Andy, myself, or anyone on the Harvard team are writers for HSAPQ. I did not write a single question for ACF-2 (though I have written a few replacement questions for other sets.) The tossups all have different leadins and only repeat stock clues towards the end. I would also like to point out that the Nikita mentioned in HFT question is a different character from a different work than the identically named character mentioned in the HSAPQ question. Also Pozdnyshev is spelled differently.

I think these sentiments may partially derive from the fact that this is the first time some of these coaches have attended several quality mACF events in a row. For the first time they are being exposed to the clue canon for high school pyramidal tossups, which highlights how questions on the same subjects end with the same stock clues.

As Lee has already apologized for this situation, I hope we can shift the focus of this thread back to substantial discussion of the set.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by at your pleasure » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:11 pm

Now, is this conclusive evidence of packet plagiarism? Of course not. The wording of the Durkheim reference, however, sounded almost identical to me (we had been practicing with the HFT packet earlier in the week), and I remembered having seen a Coriolis bonus almost immediately afterward. What are the odds of that? Are Durkheim and the Coriolis effect so common in packets that such similarities are meaningless
I don't know about the coriolis effect, but Durkenhim is one of the few canonical sociologists, so she comes up pretty frequently. As for the one identical clue, it's one of the most famous concepts in her work and it's probably the same because it's a basic concept that cannot be reworded well. As a rule, there's no issue with repeating giveaways.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by pray for elves » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:16 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:
Now, is this conclusive evidence of packet plagiarism? Of course not. The wording of the Durkheim reference, however, sounded almost identical to me (we had been practicing with the HFT packet earlier in the week), and I remembered having seen a Coriolis bonus almost immediately afterward. What are the odds of that? Are Durkheim and the Coriolis effect so common in packets that such similarities are meaningless
I don't know about the coriolis effect, but Durkenhim is one of the few canonical sociologists, so she comes up pretty frequently. As for the one identical clue, it's one of the most famous concepts in her work and it's probably the same because it's a basic concept that cannot be reworded well. As a rule, there's no issue with repeating giveaways.
Here's a picture of "her": Image

Seriously, though, those are types of suicide that have names as given by Durkheim. They're named. There's not some other way of naming them.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by aestheteboy » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:30 pm

Matt Weiner's foresight scares me.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Magister Ludi » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:14 pm

After checking with Matt, I want to clarify that Andy Watkins did not write any questions for ACF-2, so there is no overlap of writers between the two sets.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:18 pm

Joshua Rutsky wrote:Are Durkheim and the Coriolis effect so common in packets that such similarities are meaningless?
Short answer: yes.

Long answer: The wording of the Durkheim clue that you underlined is so stock as to be essentially meaningless. Those are the four types of suicide he wrote about; listing them like that is a not-uncommon clue. It's a mildly entertaining coincidence that Durkheim and the Coriolis effect happened to come up in the same packet at two different tournaments, but is by no means indicative of plagiarism or recycling, especially given that one occurrence is as a bonus answer and the other is as a tossup.
In any case, I don't think that either Lee or myself are out of line in a thread created specifically to discuss these questions in mentioning that we saw some similarities to another recent, high-quality packet
No one is telling you you're out of line for bringing such things up; plagiarism is serious business and should be dealt with as such. Providing evidence for such accusations is of paramount importance, though, and people are now explaining to you why said evidence is weak.
that was produced by groups with some common authors,
As Ted explained, no common authors.
Now, if there's a stat-head out there or a long-time forum member who wants to tell me politely (or even vaguely politely) why I shouldn't see common phrasing and answer as being statistically relevant, or if people want to point out that seeing a couple of common answers that close to one another in a packet occurs from time to time, I'm happy to hear it. But I stand by my single observation: that I noticed something strongly similar when I read the packet, and that when I went back to the HFT packet, I was able to find what rang the bell.
I'd be happy to answer any more questions, as I'm sure would almost everyone else here.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by naturalistic phallacy » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:46 pm

Stock clues are stock clues, man. I am glad that new teams are learning things that come up in quizbowl, but perhaps a better way to address this is more clearly delineate between plagiarism and stock clues and phrases.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:54 pm

Joshua Rutsky wrote:...Lee mentioned multiple similarities and asked for comment, not to be told that he's an idiot bringing up an invalid point, and since when is it out of bounds to question the quality or scope of content when you have a reasonable question? What constitutes proof of a recycled question?
Well, why don't you start, then, by stating exactly what your reasonable question is. All we have thus far is you among several at second hand from Lee and now you at third hand from yourself via Lee.
What I hear you saying is that you want to question whether/vaguely insinuate that questions were copied due to some convergent phrasing and common answers. I'll forewarn you that that's a very serious accusation and won't be taken lightly if that is what you're saying and that, consonantly, you'd better bring some better evidence than anything I'm seeing here before you start pointing those kinds of fingers. For example, I'd assert that pretty much any two sets will have parallel phrases like the ones cited here and it seems to me that all the things common to both sets are things that are important enough to come up frequently (like, every tournament.)

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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by magin » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:14 pm

First of all, I wrote the HSAPQ tossups on Hughes and Tolstoy. They were certainly not plagiarized from any previous set (I haven't even seen the HFT set). Secondly, I think the people claiming to see plagiarism don't understand what plagiarism is. Plagiarism does not mean never using similar clues; it means copying sentences from outside sources or previous packets instead of putting the clues into your own words. In fact, at the high school level, good questions on the same topic will inevitably tend to use similar clues, because we want teams to answer tossups. Writing a high school Tolstoy tossup which ends "FTP, name this Russian author of Resurrection" is a bad idea, because very few high school teams (or even college teams) could answer such a tossup, instead of one which ends "FTP, name this Russian author of War and Peace." Not only that, but there are certain works/principles/historical events which are more famous than other events; it would be possible to write a really difficult tossup on, say, Tchaikovsky, which didn't mention any of his famous compositions, but including clues about Swan Lake or The Nutcracker or the 1812 Overture is a good idea for high school questions because high schoolers are more likely to be familiar with the latter. Thus, independently produced high school questions on the same subject tend to use similar clues about their answers because we want to reward people with knowledge, and in high school, it's likely that most players don't have deep knowledge past a certain finite group of fairly famous things.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Joshua Rutsky » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:59 pm

Mike-

I thought I made my question clear- I asked if it was reasonable to expect to see two questions and answers so close together in different packets, particulary when (in my inferior experience, apparently) the answers were not regulars in the packets I've been working with. Clearly, the communitÝ as a whole says that it is, and I consider that an answer. I apologize to any writer at HSAPQ who felt I was accusing them of plagiarism, and as Ted has suggested, hope the discussion can move on at this point.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:27 pm

In the spirit of moving on, I don't remember a whole lot about this set, but the Vonnegut TU was awesome and made me very happy. I got it off the lead-in about Player Piano and went back to read the rest of it when the set was released; I've read 3 of the 4 books described and will hopefully get to the fourth over break. Anyway, I seem to recall thinking the lit was really good overall (although I may be somewhat biased to any set that includes both Vonnegut and Virgil). I may be able to be more specific over break when I have time to remember more clearly and take a look at the set, but it was quite good from what I do remember. With all due respect, it was definitely much better than last year's Cav Classic set, and I'm glad to see these good questions out there.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by vandyhawk » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:58 pm

Captain Scipio wrote: Lee, I think that one thing that can make the similarities seem more prominent than they actually are (and, by the way, from what you've posted, they're not very important) is the fact that both these sets are written in the same (uncommon for high school) style. Like, if we look at the Langston Hughes questions, they both take the form of sequentially revealing plot points of works, then the names of works: that's a good, collegiate style of question that's very popular in HSAPQ sets and in the HFT set, but will likely be seen very few other places in high school. I see questions like this PRETTY MUCH EVERYWHERE I GO, but I might get suspicious if I didn't know any better and only saw such questions at two tournaments and nowhere else.

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This is pretty much what I would've posted if I'd read this thread sooner. I also noticed while reading at ABC this fall (ACF1 from HSAPQ...dont' discuss that yet though) that the concept of common link tossups on answers that would seem too easy to be tossups hasn't quite filtered down from college yet, as even good teams were waiting much longer than expected to ring in and got kind of surprised by answers sometimes.
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by azngod1992 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:04 am

MLWGS-Gir wrote:In the spirit of moving on, I don't remember a whole lot about this set, but the Vonnegut TU was awesome and made me very happy. I got it off the lead-in about Player Piano
Yea, I got Player Piano lead-in by listening to Mike Bentley PACE podcasts :)

I thought the set was impeccably written, and I loved every minute of it. I thought there were some slight fluctuations in bonus difficulty, especially for that one American Revolutionary War bonus question (although I heard of the battles mentioned before, none of them qualified as an 10 points that one would expect)
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Kyle » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:11 am

Coral Gardens and Their Magin wrote:First of all, I wrote the HSAPQ tossups on Hughes and Tolstoy. They were certainly not plagiarized from any previous set (I haven't even seen the HFT set).
And I wrote the Don Quixote tossup, the Durkheim bonus, and the Wallace bonus from HFT — and I hadn't seen the HSAPQ set, which debuted several weeks before the HFT set, until Ted posted it this week.

Moving on — I read only the second and third packets of the HSAPQ set, but was disappointed by both questions about Egyptian history: one on medieval dynasties of Egypt and one on Nasser.
HSAPQ Packet 2 wrote:This man worked with Abd al-Hakim Amir and Zakaria Mohieddine to create the Free Officers movement, and he fought in the Faluja Pocket during the 1948 Arab War. When the Free Officers took
control, this man made Muhammad Naguid the head of state before deposing him, and later he worked to create the United Arab Republic, which became a union with Syria. After an assassination attempt, he cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood, and caused a crisis when he nationalized the Suez Canal in 1956. For 10 points, name this secular leader of Egypt.
ANSWER: Gamal Abdel Nasser [or Jamal Abd al-Nasir]
HSAPQ Packet 3 wrote:One dynasty centered in this country had its king interviewed by St. Francis of Assisi, who tried to convert him. That dynasty ruled such foreign territories as Hamah, and a ruler based in this country, Turan Shah, captured Louis IX at al-Mansurah. One dynasty from this country was named for a daughter of Muhammed, while another was founded by a Kurdish soldier, and another had its origins in
a corps of slave soldiers. The Fatimids, Ayyubids, and Mamluks all ruled from, for 10 points, what state,
which under Anwar Sadat later made peace with Israel?
ANSWER: Egypt
Among other things, Free Officers was mentioned twice and much too early, Muhammad Naguib's name was spelled wrong, the clue about controlling Hamah was pretty much meaningless and invited negs with any of three other countries, the lead-in to the Egypt tossup should have said "this present-day country" because "Egypt" was definitely not a "state" during the Middle Ages, I think you could have gotten substantive clues about the Fatimids instead of talking about their name, and in my opinion the Muslim Brotherhood clue should have been placed before the UAR clue and probably should have included more information to differentiate it from the many other Middle Eastern rulers who have cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood. But the reason I bring these up are to pose two questions about writing giveaways:

(1) How important is it for the question-writer to try to find a giveaway that relates to the theme of the question (in this case, a final clue about Egypt during the Middle Ages rather than a clue about Sadat and the 1970s tacked onto the end of a question about the Middle Ages)?

(2) How important is it for the giveaway on its own to be uniquely identifying (since "For 10 points, name this secular leader of Egypt" is decidedly not)?

I'm quite curious what people have to say on these topics.

(Also — I hope everybody has a good break from school!)
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Re: HSAPQ Fall 2008 ACF Set #2 Discussion

Post by Joshua Rutsky » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:33 am

A follow-up:

Last night I spent some serious time going over ALL the HFT and HSAPQ packets, and it is clear to me after doing so that two things are the case:

1) Any common ground between the packets was, indeed, purely that--common ground, with nothing other than a coincidence in the nearness of the pairing of answers that I cited earlier.

2) That I should have reviewed the packets in their entirety before even raising the question of the coincidental pairing.


In short, I was completely wrong on this, and apologize to all involved for not making a more complete analysis before jumping into the discussion. While I might have had reason to wonder about this at the time of the event where I was reading, my doubts should never have become public until I had checked them out completely, which was irresponsible on my part. Mea maxima culpa, and I will learn from this in the future.
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