2009 Michigan High School State Championship

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2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by kdroge » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:48 pm

Hi all - it's that time of year again! Michigan Academic Competitions is pleased to invite your team to the 2009 Michigan NAQT State High School Championship Tournament. This event will be held on Saturday, March 7th, 2009, on the Central Campus of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

Since 1995, Michigan Academic Competitions has hosted several tournaments for high schools throughout the state of Michigan. This year's Michigan NAQT State High School Championship promises more of the same, as we hope to draw some of the finest schools from throughout Michigan. This event will be run with questions provided by NAQT (IS-85). As a result, teams entering the 2009 Michigan NAQT State High School Championship will be able to qualify for the 2009 NAQT High School National Championship.

Each match will consist of 2 9-minute halves or 24 tossup questions, whichever comes first. Players who first answer a question correctly will be rewarded with points and a chance for the entire team to answer bonus questions, all of which are worth a maximum of 30 points. Questions come from all areas: science, math, history and government, literature, current events, geography, popular culture, fine arts, sports, mythology and religion, social science, and general knowledge; with the academic areas heavily emphasized.

In an attempt to ensure that teams have the opportunity to compete against teams of equal skill, the schedule will incorporate a pooled round robin for preliminary play. In addition, we guarantee that each team will play a minimum of seven matches, with the top teams playing head-to-head to determine the tournament champion. Our goal is that each team plays as many matches as possible. We will also attempt to ensure that teams from the same school will not play each other during the preliminary rounds.

We will begin registration at 8:15 a.m. and hold a mandatory meeting for players and coaches at 8:45 a.m. Rounds will begin at 9:00 a.m. and continue through the morning and early afternoon with a lunch break around 1:00 p.m. Playoffs and a brief awards ceremony will follow, and we expect to finish no later than 6:00 p.m.

If you know of any teams that you think might be interested in this event, please forward this email to them. Thank you.

Registration for this event will initially be limited to 32 high school teams, and we will initially allow each school to register ONLY 1 TEAM due to high demand for the tournament. The purpose of this is to maximize the number of schools that can participate in the event. When you register your school, you will have the option to apply for additional teams, which will be used to complete the tournament field on a first-come, first-served basis. At Noon on February 21st (two weeks before the tournament), we will accept all 2nd teams based on this list and will complete the field with teams beyond that. Teams may consist of an unlimited number of players, only four of whom may play at once. It is our hope, however, that all the students attending the tournament will receive a good deal of playing time.

We will accept teams on a first-come basis until Noon on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009, unless we first reach the tournament maximum (if this happens, we will place these teams on a waiting list). Registration may only be done by e-mailing Kurtis Droge at kdroge@umich.edu. You will receive confirmation of your registration by e-mail.

Checks should be made out to "Michigan Academic Competitions," and may either be brought to the tournament, or mailed to:

University Activities Center
Michigan Academic Competitions
4002 Michigan Union
530 S. State Street
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1308
________________________________

The entry fees for the 2009 Michigan NAQT State High School Championship are:


First team from a school $90
Each additional team from a school $80
Discount for a fully functional buzzer system
(max 3 per school) -$5
New program discount* -$10/team
Online registration discount -$5/team
Distance discount (100-275 miles)** -$10/team
Extreme distance discount (over 275 miles)** -$50/team
Minimum entry fee per team $25

* If your school has not participated in a University of Michigan tournament within the past two years, then you are eligible for this discount.
** Distances are determined as based on distance one way from your school to the tournament site according to maps.google.com.

Our web page contains a Frequently Asked Questions at http://www.umich.edu/~uac/mac/faq.html section that we hope will answer any questions you have regarding the tournament. Also, feel free to e-mail kdroge@umich.edu with any questions you may have about the tournament.

We look forward to seeing you on March 7th!

Kurtis Droge
Michigan Academic Competitions
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East Lansing 08, Michigan 12, Louisville 17

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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by master15625 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:03 pm

Will stats be kept at this tournament?

We are most likely going to this tournament.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Lukey's Boat » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:02 pm

Hi Kurtis! I want to mod :)
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by kdroge » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:34 am

As of today, I opened the field to second teams, and all second teams (and third teams) that were registered made it in. That being said, there is still space available in the tournament for a little over a week. The field, as it currently stands, is:

East Lansing (1)
White Cloud (1)
Dewitt (2)
Chelsea (1)
Rochester (2)
Troy (2)
Sand Creek (2)
Huron (1)
Detroit Country Day (2)
Reed City (1)
Brighton (3)
West Bloomfield (1)
Farmington (2)
Novi (2) (8th)
Detroit Catholic Central (2)
Greenhills School (1)
Huron AA (1)

This makes for 27 teams, meaning that there are still five spots open. My email is kdroge@umich.edu if you would like to sign up, if you have any questions, or there are any issues with the field (like you signed up, but I messed up somewhere and you're not on the list). Thanks!
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by kdroge » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Hey all,

The field for the championship is now closed, and these are the registered teams:

East Lansing (1)
White Cloud (1)
Dewitt (2)
Chelsea (1)
Rochester (2)
Troy (2)
Sand Creek (1)
Huron (1)
Detroit Country Day (1)
Reed City (1)
Brighton (3)
West Bloomfield (1)
Farmington (2)
Novi (2)
Detroit Catholic Central (2)
Greenhills School (1)
Huron AA (1)
Bloomfield Hills Andover (1)
Churchill Livonia (1)
Ionia (1)

This makes for 28 teams- So I will do 4 brackets of seven teams for the premilinart rounds which makes for 7 guaranteed games, with a cut to a playoff of either 12 or 16 teams (not sure on this yet; I'll know on the day of the tournament). If there are any issues with the field, please let me know as soon as possible. Thanks!

Kurtis Droge
Michigan Academic Competitions
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by master15625 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:48 pm

kdroge wrote:...
This makes for 28 teams- So I will do 4 brackets of seven teams for the premilinart rounds which makes for 7 guaranteed games, with a cut to a playoff of either 12 or 16 teams (not sure on this yet; I'll know on the day of the tournament). If there are any issues with the field, please let me know as soon as possible. Thanks!
Hi Kurtis,

Quick question. If you have brackets of seven teams each, how will you guarantee us 7 games? Will each team in the bracket play someone in another bracket. If it were to be round robin, it would be 6 guaranteed games.

Thanks
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:27 pm

All teams will play one cross-bracket game.
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formerly of University of Michigan and East Lansing High School

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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by zhe » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:35 pm

Thanks again to all teams who participated in yesterday's state championship tournament. Congratulations to the winner, Detroit Country Day. For the final stats for the tournament, including playoff rounds, see the following link.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~zheguan/ ... dings.html

We would like to make an announcement to all teams that if you by any chance ended up with one of our timing devices, please let us know. We are currently missing one timer after scoping all of the match rooms yesterday. All of our timers have UAC and Michigan Quiz Bowl written on the back in black marker.

We hope everyone had fun at the tournament, and we sincerely wish to see you all again in the future.

Phil Guan
Michigan Academic Competitions
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:58 pm

Would have liked to see DCC and DCD play each other a second or perhaps third time as an advantaged final, but congrats to DCD for an undefeated day.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by TheCzarMan » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:01 pm

Why no individual stats?
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:55 pm

TheCzarMan wrote:Why no individual stats?
We only had enough moderators for one per room, and were running a timed tournament. Since keeping track of individuals slows down moderators slightly, we decided to skip keeping track of individuals in favor of getting through more questions.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by master15625 » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:53 pm

squareroot165 wrote:
TheCzarMan wrote:Why no individual stats?
We only had enough moderators for one per room, and were running a timed tournament. Since keeping track of individuals slows down moderators slightly, we decided to skip keeping track of individuals in favor of getting through more questions.
Which I am happy for you doing.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by master15625 » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:55 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Would have liked to see DCC and DCD play each other a second or perhaps third time as an advantaged final, but congrats to DCD for an undefeated day.
One of the teams we were supposed to play forfeited, so we were supposed to have played 11 games but we didn't.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:05 pm

That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying he thinks there should have been a final between the top 2 teams given that you didn't clear the field by 2 wins. Also, I don't know what world we live in where keeping individual statistics slows down the moderator more than not, since the columns are all right there on the NAQT scoresheet.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:22 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying he thinks there should have been a final between the top 2 teams given that you didn't clear the field by 2 wins.
Yes, thanks Charlie. NAQT packets, in particular, are fluke-y... so they should have played at least twice to determine the true champion. Considering i've seen DCC a couple times this year where they beat some of the best teams in the country, there should have been an advantaged final. Granted, that would be a heck of a lot of rounds, but still.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by alkrav112 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:41 am

Just to be clear, the playoffs consisted of a 16-team single-elimination bracket rather than a bracket of top teams all playing each other. As optimal as it might have been to DCC and DCD play more than one match, an advantaged final wouldn't have made much sense, as the final match was their first meeting (so their record against each other was 0-0). Either they would have had to play that single game with the winning team being declared the champion, or they would have had to play a best-of-3 series starting with that game. Note that this is neither an argument in favor of nor an argument against the single-elimination bracket system.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:11 am

OK, that makes more sense then in the stats. However, for a state championship tournament might it not be worth it to try and abandon single elimination simply because its an important thing?
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:02 am

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:OK, that makes more sense then in the stats. However, for a state championship tournament might it not be worth it to try and abandon single elimination simply because its an important thing?
We lost in the first (quarterfinal) single-elimination round of the "playoffs" in our state championship... :oops: Every single-elimination tournament we've been to this year (three of them), we've either played a horrible game and lost or got seeded against some team that should have been way higher and got crushed.

Anyway, i think we originally made this suggestion because the stats here are a little weird... it appears like they played each other early, since the games seem to be entered randomly without consideration for the round of the game here.
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Caesar Rodney High School
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:27 am

Everyone college in Michigan is obsessed with running single elimination NAQT tournaments(including my own university). I didn't even know that players actually preferred bracketed playoffs or something else until I came to college. I think a lot of the teams in this state would prefer double elim, just as a lot of decent teams become a Mount Saint Mary's playing a Michigan State in the first round.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by alkrav112 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:35 am

nalin wrote:Everyone college in Michigan is obsessed with running single elimination NAQT tournaments(including my own university). I didn't even know that players actually preferred bracketed playoffs or something else until I came to college. I think a lot of the teams in this state would prefer double elim, just as a lot of decent teams become a Mount Saint Mary's playing a Michigan State in the first round.
I don't know how manageable a seeded double-elimination playoff bracket would have been after the 7 morning rounds, but I'm definitely open to suggestions of how to make that work.
Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:... for a state championship tournament might it not be worth it to try and abandon single elimination simply because its an important thing?
I definitely agree with many of the previously raised criticisms of the single-elimination format. Yes, NAQT packets do tend to be flukey, and yes, they can produce some odd results. In a quiz bowl utopia, bracketed playoffs would be the norm in high school, and every team would kiss our feet for providing them. I would, however, like to defend the single-elim playoff system (for high school states, at least) briefly.

1) Frankly, a lot of high school teams don't want to play 13 rounds of quiz bowl in a single day. When you're used to going to a tournament and playing 6, maybe 7 rounds, even 10 rounds can be taxing, never mind 13. For the teams that were eliminated but did want to play more quiz bowl, we were open to running some scrimmages in non-game rooms.

2) The top four teams from the prelims were, in our case, the final four teams in the single elimination bracket. And, statistically, the top two teams made it to the finals. And, by bonus conversion, the best team won in an exciting game that came down to the last question. I think that's the spirit of competition: you prepare the best you can, you hope that you perform to the best of your ability, but you're always open to the possibility that some teams can beat you under the right circumstances. If we wanted to ensure that the best team won the tournament every time, we would just skip all the boring quiz bowl stuff and just hand out trophies and go home. I realize that this isn't the strongest selling point for single-elim (bracketed playoffs can achieve most of this), but there really is an atmosphere of excitement and desperation - an idea that any team can win (even if some teams have a much better chance than others) - that single-elim engenders.

3) This isn't a great reason, but the single-elim bracket gives more teams a chance to qualify for HSNCT. By giving four teams a T-5 standing, they all fall roughly into the top 15% of the field, and they thus all get to go to Nationals.

I envision a slew of responses to point 2 arguing that not any team SHOULD win, and that bracketed playoffs eliminate (or severely reduce) the possibility of a Rookie High B beating a Superstar High A in the final standings. The latter point is true. But I think that the morning brackets do a decent job of that as well. A good team that loses a bad game in the early rounds suffers marginally for it, while a not-so-good team that has an upset in the early rounds is marginally rewarded for it.

The fact of the matter is that no team can guarantee a win 100% of the time. But the best teams will win most often, and they will lose very rarely against teams they should beat. In truth, I would feel much worse about the format we ran if a team like DCD or DCC had been felled early by a lurking 4 seed, but it didn't happen because both teams were prepared exceedingly well for this tournament. Their skill minimized the chance of an NAQT flukey result, but well-prepared teams gave themselves a chance to create an upset.

At any rate, both DCD and DCC were deserving of the state championship, as they proved in the final, and I'm sure both will have impressive runs at HSNCT.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Matt Weiner » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:25 pm

alkrav112 wrote:3) This isn't a great reason, but the single-elim bracket gives more teams a chance to qualify for HSNCT. By giving four teams a T-5 standing, they all fall roughly into the top 15% of the field, and they thus all get to go to Nationals.
TDs colluding with teams to artificially qualify more teams for HSNCT seems not so much "not a great reason" as a "borderline unethical reason" to adopt an inferior playoff system.

As with other issues, the rebuttal to any fear of a proper playoff is to remind you that we're not in a vacuum arguing a priori; other places have moved past treating quizbowl like football and it hasn't caused any problems. In fact, one of the major advantages of bracketed playoffs is that teams who are in the bottom of the field get to play 3=5 additional games against those of their own level, rather than being knocked out in the first round of an SE or not playing at all. Most teams do like getting more value for their money and getting a chance to improve, and the few quizbowl teams who don't like playing quizbowl shouldn't dictate the situation for everyone else.

And don't do double-elim; that takes forever (longer than brackets) and offers very little advantage over SE.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:56 pm

Playing extra games in a bracketed playoff format would seem like benefit, but there are a large number of teams that want to leave starting somewhere around round 5, from what I have seen. If I were playing, I would certainly rather play in a bracket of, say, teams 8-12 than just leave after the first round. However, a lot of teams here just seem to want to play a few games and leave once they have been eliminated from the playoffs. If we put 16 teams into bracketed playoffs, I would be surprised if fewer than about 4 decided to leave anyway. We offered scrimmages at both this tournament and the one in the fall; so far one team was interested.
Next year before our fall tournament, I will ask coaches about their preferred playoff structure when registering. If enough prefer bracketing, we will switch to that in some form.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:08 pm

You need to publicize your scrimmages better. My little brother's team was not made aware of this.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by cdcarter » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:42 pm

alkrav112 wrote:
nalin wrote:Everyone college in Michigan is obsessed with running single elimination NAQT tournaments(including my own university). I didn't even know that players actually preferred bracketed playoffs or something else until I came to college. I think a lot of the teams in this state would prefer double elim, just as a lot of decent teams become a Mount Saint Mary's playing a Michigan State in the first round.
I don't know how manageable a seeded double-elimination playoff bracket would have been after the 7 morning rounds, but I'm definitely open to suggestions of how to make that work.
SEVEN (7!) whole rounds! That's an intense number of rounds right there! Just under half of the number of packets you get to work with!
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:57 pm

alkrav112 wrote:Yes, NAQT packets do tend to be flukey, and yes, they can produce some odd results.
Examples of fluke content welcome by private email (either to me jthoppes [at] berkeley [dot] edu or to R. robert.hentzel [at] naqt [dot] com). We don't ever intend to produce "odd results."
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by master15625 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:02 pm

don't get us wrong, we think these NAQT packets are some of the best packets out there. It has a great balance of questions and the power marks are fair.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by alkrav112 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:36 pm

When I say flukey, I guess I more mean the lack of a consistent distribution between packets; one team might just hit a high proportion of their specialty subjects.

And when I highlighted 7, I meant to contrast it with 2 - the number of rounds guaranteed to teams in Michigan State's annual state tournament.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:47 pm

To clarify the "State" tournament Andy is referencing, I think it is run by the MSU honors college and not the quiz bowl team.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:53 pm

master15625 wrote:don't get us wrong, we think these NAQT packets are some of the best packets out there. It has a great balance of questions and the power marks are fair.
Glad to hear it!
alkrav112 wrote:When I say flukey, I guess I more mean the lack of a consistent distribution between packets; one team might just hit a high proportion of their specialty subjects.
You're welcome to join us in the let's talk about NAQT's distribution thread.
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Re: 2009 Michigan High School State Championship

Post by runningboy » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:49 am

I think dcds deserved to win because they knew the questions
questions are questions, and while some people may be better at some different packet manufacterers, there is nothing "unfair" about it.
Plus dcd won the last 2 tournaments they played with dcc

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