IESA Sectional Results

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IESA Sectional Results

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon May 04, 2009 8:34 pm

Daniel Wright 257, Barrington Station 234
I'm done.
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by BGSO » Mon May 04, 2009 8:41 pm

:cry:
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(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Mon May 04, 2009 10:01 pm

Woody Paige wrote:Daniel Wright 257, Barrington Station 234
I'm done.
You really care about sectionals to much. If I had a choice, I would much rather win the Junior Wildcat or your tournament than anything on QG. Your victory at those tournaments should convince you that your team is the quiz bowl state champs. A loss in the hose-bowl state championship does not diminish your team's success at all.

I know you probably understand this, but I think it is important that your kids learn this as well. Our school heavily emphasized the conference championship. When our Frosh-Soph team lost to Meadows, they yelled at Garb and I. After all, we were the ones who forced them to play on real questions. They were used to practicing on questions that ask "What is the second brightest star in the universe?" or about "Name this house of Hogwarts whose symbol is a snake" (these were the first two questions asked when I walked in the room one day). My fear is that your emphasis on winning this (inferior) tournament will lead some of your kids to want to improve on these (inferior) questions, rather than practice on the great questions that you encourage them to practice on.
Nicholas Bergeon
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UW-Madison '12
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon May 04, 2009 10:15 pm

The worst of it is that we out-toss-upped them 11-9, but got the real number-wang bonuses and bageled both. Thus negating THAT advantage. Plus we somehow bageled the Wordy Gurdy bonus labeled as a vocabulary bonus. I thought we'd at least figure out "hum drum". But if the final 2 bonuses had been flipped (give us the fine arts that didn't ask about any works of art (diorama, mobile, mural, mosaic, caricature) and DWright the general math percentages computation (They rebounded only 1 part), we win the match.
Thanks Nick. It's just really frustrating to see us fall for the 5th year in a row to a team we've proven we're superior to when good questions are being asked. And I hate being in this spot because it's really easy for an observer to accuse me of sour grapes if I go and rail against the question provider. I SO wanted us to win, in spite of the questions, and THEN I could rail against the question provider from unassailable ground. Know what I mean? And it just stinks to see the kids work to get SO close to being able to call themselves State Champs, and just have that hope dashed on an unlucky draw of bonuses. We had some fabulous TU scores; the only TU screw up was when a 6th grade player of mine negged with "Charge of the 500" which all but led Wright to the correct answer.
Last edited by the return of AHAN on Wed May 06, 2009 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jeff Price
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Scobowls and Speedos » Wed May 06, 2009 1:58 pm

I feel your pain Price. But perhaps if you want to win sectionals, you should prepare for the IESA-type questions (as bad as they may be). I know that DW plays QG questions at all its conference meets, so they were better suited to those questions than your team. Instead of trying to change the system, conform to the system. It's worked for lots of us.

How old are your best players?
Zach Blumenfeld
Stevenson '11

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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by at your pleasure » Wed May 06, 2009 3:47 pm

Or just not play terrible, terrible questions.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed May 06, 2009 4:12 pm

Scobowls and Speedos wrote: Instead of trying to change the system, conform to the system.
What a horrifying sentiment.
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed May 06, 2009 4:42 pm

Scobowls and Speedos wrote:I feel your pain Price. But perhaps if you want to win sectionals, you should prepare for the IESA-type questions (as bad as they may be). I know that DW plays QG questions at all its conference meets, so they were better suited to those questions than your team. Instead of trying to change the system, conform to the system. It's worked for lots of us.
You should never prepare for bad questions. That will make you mediocre on bad questions (since no one can actually ever be "good" at them) and useless on good ones. Preparing for good questions will make you mediocre on bad questions and good on good ones.
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed May 06, 2009 4:44 pm

More importantly, the point of quizbowl is to learn things that are worth learning. Bad questions are bad because they do not educate, they encourage the memorization of trivia and the use of reflexes (this is the definition of what bad questions are). A coach who prepares his team for bad questions is abrogating his responsibilities as an educator. Saying "just prepare for Questions Galore" is saying "just betray your career and your obligations to your students."
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed May 06, 2009 8:06 pm

Scobowls and Speedos wrote:I feel your pain Price. But perhaps if you want to win sectionals, you should prepare for the IESA-type questions (as bad as they may be). I know that DW plays QG questions at all its conference meets, so they were better suited to those questions than your team. Instead of trying to change the system, conform to the system. It's worked for lots of us.

How old are your best players?
Hi Zach. You make an interesting point, but our conference uses Questions Galore, too, as does the Normal Metcalf Sweetheart Tournament, and the Antioch Tournament. Up until sectionals, we won every tournament we played in this year, regardless of whether the questions were pyramidal or not. We use even use QG in practice occasionally, but the better players of mine have grown to love the pyramidal TU and mACF bonuses. Looking back at the sectional match against DW, I think about the TU we lost out on, and really, 5 out of 9 of them were simple buzzer races. I don't believe for a second that spending another hour on old QG packets would have helped my kids win any of those. OTOH, more time on better lit questions would most certainly have solidified Duncan's knowledge of Tennyson's "Charge of the Light Brigade" and we're not having this conversation. Moreover, I think back to the 2 science bonuses that we swept and the world history knowledge we scored 16 out of 20 on, and I credit the job being done by the teachers at Barrington Station. The player who scored the "Erlenmeyer flask" TU even pointed out to me that his honors science teacher taught them about that piece of lab equipment. Those are the moments where a solid, well-rounded education can make a good scholastic bowl player. This is exactly what Mr. Weiner refers to in the preceding post. This is why I'll continue to practice with a variety of resources, including good, educational questions I cull from Juniorbird packets such as:
UTChattanooga wrote:At standard temperature and pressure, it is a toxic and corrosive gas with a strong odor, and until the advent of haloalkanes like Freon, it was widely used as a refrigerant because it easily liquefies under pressure. Its liquid form is also a well-known non-aqueous ionizing solvent. Another of its important uses is in the production of nitric acid, which is then used in explosives and fertilizer. FTP, name this Hydrogen-Nitrogen compound usually formed when its two component gases are reacted over an iron catalyst, with aluminum oxide and potassium oxide promoters.
Answer: Ammonia
One of my graduating 8th graders nailed that one on "refrigerant". Would I have ever known he'd have a chance to answer with that kind of depth of knowledge on a QG packet?

or this, which the aforementioned, future star of Barrington HS buzzed on the 10th word?
UTChattanooga wrote:His sister sent her son Perdix to train with him, but after the child invented the saw and a pair of compasses, he grew jealous and pushed him off of a high tower. After the feat he is most famous for, his former patron found out he was at the court of King Cocalus by presenting the puzzle of how to string a seashell. One of his more famous creations was designed so that Asterion, the son of Pasiphae and wife of Minos, could not escape. Identify, FTP, this architect of the labyrinth and designer of feather and wax wings, which resulted in the death of his son, Icarus.
Answer: Daedalus
Obviously, I'm cherry-picking now, but I've read enough pyramidal TU on "Nighthawks" this year that any one of my kids can answer such a TU by the halfway point, if not the lead-in.
No thanks, Zach. I'll stick to good questions that teach, my kids will continue to rock and roll at tournaments with decent questions (and even some without), and we'll roll the dice when State Series comes around.
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Scobowls and Speedos » Wed May 06, 2009 8:43 pm

I was just trying to diagnose a reason for the upset price. Of course it is better to study harder questions, and the questions galore questions do suck. For those of you who were offended by my statement, I apologize.
That being said, let's talk about the match itself. I heard you were up big at the half, but then one Ryan Malis turned the tide. I then heard that he led dw on a run and you guys crumbled. I heard this from an eyewitness.
Did you call a timeout to settle your team down? I find that in water polo that really helps when the other team is on a run. Other than that, it sounds like your team was obviously superior, you just got screwed by the questions.
Now is a great time to pitch my junior high tournament that I and some of my stevenson teammates will be running next year. We will be writing the questions so it will be all good. Hopefully you guys can come and show that you are the best when the questions are legit. I am sure you will be.
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed May 06, 2009 8:46 pm

Scobowls and Speedos wrote:I was just trying to diagnose a reason for the upset price. Of course it is better to study harder questions, and the questions galore questions do suck. For those of you who were offended by my statement, I apologize.
That being said, let's talk about the match itself. I heard you were up big at the half, but then one Ryan Malis turned the tide. I then heard that he led dw on a run and you guys crumbled. I heard this from an eyewitness.
Did you call a timeout to settle your team down? I find that in water polo that really helps when the other team is on a run. Other than that, it sounds like your team was obviously superior, you just got screwed by the questions.
Now is a great time to pitch my junior high tournament that I and some of my stevenson teammates will be running next year. We will be writing the questions so it will be all good. Hopefully you guys can come and show that you are the best when the questions are legit. I am sure you will be.
Please stop comparing quizbowl to water polo. And honestly, I'm not holding my breath when it comes to your tournament, since to my knowledge you have written 0 good questions.

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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by rjaguar3 » Wed May 06, 2009 8:49 pm

Scobowls and Speedos wrote: Did you call a timeout to settle your team down? I find that in water polo that really helps when the other team is on a run.
Keep in mind Scholastic Bowl is not a sport, so water polo coaching and good scholastic bowl coaching require two different strategies. Also, in higher levels, like ACF, there are no timeouts.

Although I can understand why players would be frustrated at Questions Galore. Heck, I even got frustrated editing the questions because they were so horrible. Maybe in bad quizbowl, maybe any strategy goes. Who knows?
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by JackGlerum » Wed May 06, 2009 10:33 pm

I just wanna say that while Zach is wrong about a lot of stuff in this thread, let's not pile on. If you were a high school sophomore in Illinois, you would have viewpoints very similar to his--guaranteed. I certainly made many regrettable posts when I first discovered hsqb. It was not long ago when I bragged about IHSA victories, something I would never do now.

Basically, I encourage people not to be like "Hey idiot you're wrong and you and your Illinois quizbowl should go to hell," but instead treat them like a noob (see: Zach, when it comes to good quizbowl), and explain to them in a civil manner where they are off base.

I'm not saying any lines have been crossed or that Zach is right in any way, but you all know how Illinois threads can descend to bad, bad places. And yes, feel free to tempban me for backseat modding... I just thought it had to be said.

edit: ugh
Last edited by JackGlerum on Thu May 07, 2009 12:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by rjaguar3 » Wed May 06, 2009 10:34 pm

For your information, Donald and I posted 3 minutes apart, so I did not see Donald's reply before I wrote mine.
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed May 06, 2009 10:41 pm

JackGlerum wrote:I just wanna say that while Zach is wrong about a lot of stuff in this thread, let's not pile on. If you were a high school freshman in Illinois, you would have viewpoints very similar to his--guaranteed. I certainly made many regrettable posts when I first discovered hsqb. It was not long ago when I bragged about IHSA victories, something I would never do now.

Basically, I encourage people not to be like "Hey idiot you're wrong and you and your Illinois quizbowl should go to hell," but instead treat them like a complete noob (see: Zach, when it comes to good quizbowl), and explain to them in a civil manner where they are off base.

I'm not saying any lines have been crossed or that Zach is right in any way, but you all know how Illinois threads can descend to bad, bad places. And yes, feel free to tempban me for backseat modding... I just thought it had to be said.
Jack, Zach's been a registered member for about a month and a half. In my mind, that's ample time to get a feel for the tone of this board. Besides, I don't see any incivility in my or Greg's posts. We simply pointed out some of the flaws in his arguments.

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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed May 06, 2009 11:17 pm

Zach,
My team "crumbled"? That 's an interesting eyewitness account, if that came from a player on a team that coughed up a 230-70 lead to my 'A' team in the Junior Wildcat. So if anyone would know about crumbling, I guess said player would be well-qualified. :wink: :lol:
But seriously, here's the situation. We were up, 88-8 after 9 questions, which was our largest lead. At halftime, despite scoring 3 more TU to DW's 2, our lead DWINDLED to 70 points. How can that be?
DW controlled bonus 5 in Algebra: Factor these 4 fairly easy algebraic factoring problems, plus a 4-term cubic. 16 points for DW. No rebound for Station.
DW controlled bonus 6 in Earth Science: Name the planets these natural satellites orbit. Wright scores 12, Station rebound 8.
Station controlled bonus 7 in Grammar: Categorize four phrases listed (not used in a sentence) Station 10, Wright 10.
Station controlled bonus 8 in Geometry: Compute these surface areas. A box, a triangular based prism, a cone, a sphere. You'd think the box would be an easy part, but not when it's all double digit dimensions. I thought we'd get one part, but not even DW could rebound anything. NADA
Station controlled bonus 9 in Geography: Here's 5 port cities. Give the state: Long Beach, Beaumont, Valdez, Lake Charles, Newport News. An unfortunate bonus as my team argued over one of the answers and chose the wrong one, which DW rebounded. 4 points for Station, 4 for DW. So, we lead, 140-70. That ain't a big lead in this game. And here we go with round 2:
16. This flightless bird is now extinct (BUZZ Ryan, DW)
DODO
Bonus #10: Name the three elements used in commercial fertilizers. DW scored 2 of 3 for 13 points
17. Algebra question read to the end about direct variation, which was scored by Vivian. I'll concede that one. My two go-to guys in math are either in a gifted math, where they don't study algebra beyond 7th grade, & Honors Geometry. Direct variation is an Algebra I topic.
Bonus #11: Spelling bonus! Spell these five bakery words. Inexplicably, DW can't spell pumpernickel, but we'll take that easy rebound. 16 for DW, 4 for Station.
18. What do we call plants or crops that live for more than two years (BUZZ Ryan, DW)
PERENNIALS (those are 3 nice buzzes in a row that are sometimes just going to happen. You can't own them all against a top-shelf team)
Bonus #12 Bonus question on the food pyramid. Name any 5 of the 6 foods on the food pyramid. Seriously. Swept by Daniel Wright. Is this us falling apart or just a nice counter-punch by Daniel Wright? We're not negging out of the TU questions or letting obvious giveaways go by, so I think it's the latter. Nonetheless, I burn my timeout in hopes of shuffling the deck a little bit player-wise, putting Omar and Kyle in, and maybe settling things down.
19. Literature TU on "Charge of the Light Brigade" that my 6th grade superstar buzzes on when he hears Tennyson and the Crimean War reference, but can't quite remember the full title, attempting "Charge of the 600?" That may or may not have been enough spark to cause Eric to rebound the correct title. Oh well. It happens.
Bonus: Name the winner of contested presidential elections in these years: 2000, 1888, 1876, 1824. DW 15, Station rebounds the 1824 election for 5 points.
20. History: Public speakers, especially, politicians, have to be very careful of the words they choose. This political candidate was ridiculed after he was interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on March 9, 1999, and said he had taken the initiative in creating the Internet (BUZZ Jonathan, DW) I categorize this as a buzzer race as I promise you that Ian was reacting to "creating the Internet," too.
Bonus 14: Here are 5 pitchers. Name their NL teams at the end of 2008. Dempster, Lincecum, Webb, Sabathia, Santana. A totally "duh" bonus if you have a single baseball fan in the lineup. We did, but so did DW. 20 points for DW
21. Music TU about Beethoven that became a buzzer race on "completely deaf". Jack scored it for DW.
Bonus 15: Computer science bonus on the meanings of file extensions. THIS was the ONLY bonus that DW controlled that saw fewer than 10 points scored by both teams combined. 8 for DW, giving them a 222-149 lead. A great run by a very good team. But we've gotten off the deck before. You don't win 53 in a row without overcoming some issues now and then.
22. General Math computation TU that went dead.
23. Vocabulary: What 9-letter word begins with an “ex-“ prefix, and means to clear from blame or acc(BUZZ Kyle, Station)
EXCULPATE
Bonus 16 in physical science: Chemistry terms... properties of an object that can be observed using the senses...State of matter with definite volume but no definite shape...amount of matter within a substance....electrons found in the outermost shell of the atom... A mixture with particles larger than particles in a solution but smaller than in a suspension... swept by Station
24. Current Events: In September 2008, this company suffered a liquidity crisis following the downgrade of its credit rating. According to Forbes, it was the 18th largest company in the world in 2008. On September 16, 2008, the U.S. Federal Reserve stepped in to prevent the company’s collapse (BUZZ Omar, Station)
AIG
Bonus 17 Literature. A 4 parter with all four parts about books by Avi.
:mad:
My kids knew "Nothing but the Truth" but knew nothing else, for 5 points. DW knew zippo about the other 3, too.
25. Science: This laboratory flask (BUZZ Eric, DW)
E-FLASK - INCORRECT.... After patiently waiting for the entire question, Kyle rebounds with Erlenmayer Flask,
Bonus 18 Current Events: Name the 4 most populous Muslim countries. Ugh. A list bonus. But no matter. SWEPT by Station to claim a 224-222, lead. So, as you see, Zach, we REALLY crumbled down the stretch. :roll:
26. geography TU about a city where the CMA Awards are held, the Cumberland River flows by, and you can visit the Grand Old Op-(BUZZ Jack, Wright)
NASHVILLE (Kyle later said he thought it was Nashville on CMA Awards but feared a hose, waiting a split second too long)
Bonus in Art describing Mural, Diorama, Mosaic, Caricature, Mobile for an easy sweep, giving Wright a 28 point edge with 1 bonus left.
27. Algebra computation involving solving a Quadratic that we pulled pretty quickly.... but the bonus was one of QG's notorious 4 parts in general math regarding percentages bonuses. A long story about a shopping spree..... If the sale price of a sweater was $32.50 at 35% off, what was the original price...Pants were 15%. The original price was $32, what's the sale price... $68 shoes originally cost $85. What's the discount?...$81.50 for 3 shirts, but the sale was buy 2 get the third for half off, what's the cost of one shirt...
For the first time, I saw panic in Anish's eyes as he knew no one was going to come up with the last part and he didn't have the middle parts all the way done, so when time was called, and his first answer was incorrect, he just let the whole question go. I suppose you could argue that we crumbled THEN, when the last hope was gone. But I defy anyone to say my kids didn't battle their asses off the whole match.
So, to recap, the bonuses saw an average of 14.55 points converted by both teams combined, including rebounds. The 9 bonuses that Wright controlled saw 17.4 points converted by both teams combined, but the 11 controlled by Station had only 12.2 points converted by both teams combined. The difference in rebounded points was +10 for DW if you include the 5 taken on the final bonus.
But let's put it another way... each team swept 3 bonuses:
Wright's 3 bonuses: Name 5 of 6 foods on the MyHealth pyramid; Match 5 All-Star pitchers to their NL team; Name 5 artistic media given pretty lengthy descriptions
Station's 3 bonuses: Name these four science terms (light, energy, red shift, solar mass); Name 5 chemistry terms (described above); Name the 4 most populous Muslim countries
Only 4 bonuses were asked where no more than 1 part was answered by both teams combined and STATION CONTROLLED THEM ALL.
We were victimized by lousy luck. I won't even blame the questions, as shift any of them, say, flip-flop bonus 19 and 20, and we win.

Having said all that, if you want a neutral observation, I invite Mr. Mike Laudermith, the moderator of this match, to render his account of how the game unfolded.
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Scobowls and Speedos » Wed May 06, 2009 11:52 pm

Thanks for getting my back, Jack. I know I can count on you man. BTW Donald, I don't post very often on this site. Call me a noob, but I think ALL competitive events have certain traits in common, such as momentum. And we'll just see about my questions, right?
Now that you explain the match to me, Price, I can see that my pro-Wright witness was in the heat of the moment when making her statements. It looks as if you guys gave it a great fight, and I would have liked to see what I'm sure was a classic match. I can also see that your team easily had more in-depth knowledge, but the questions were sometimes too speed-based. I feel for you, but it looks as though most of DW's talent will be leaving. Next year you guys should handle them.
This sectional is always the strongest, so consider your team 2nd best in IESA state. Probably best overall.
Zach Blumenfeld
Stevenson '11

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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by the return of AHAN » Thu May 07, 2009 8:18 am

Scobowls and Speedos wrote:Thanks for getting my back, Jack. I know I can count on you man. BTW Donald, I don't post very often on this site. Call me a noob, but I think ALL competitive events have certain traits in common, such as momentum. And we'll just see about my questions, right?
Now that you explain the match to me, Price, I can see that my pro-Wright witness was in the heat of the moment when making her statements. It looks as if you guys gave it a great fight, and I would have liked to see what I'm sure was a classic match. I can also see that your team easily had more in-depth knowledge, but the questions were sometimes too speed-based. I feel for you, but it looks as though most of DW's talent will be leaving. Next year you guys should handle them.
This sectional is always the strongest, so consider your team 2nd best in IESA state. Probably best overall.
Zach, and I don't mean to imply DW didn't deserve to win the match. They had a very small window to do so and they pulled it off, which is exactly what happened at the Junior Wildcat, but in our favor that time (hat trick by Ian with bonus sweeps on the final 3 toss-ups). I don't buy for one moment, though, that DW won't be right back where they are this year, as there were 2 underclassmen in the starting 5. I think Mrs. Beck's idea of a rebuilding year is one where they only take a runner-up trophy at State! :smile:
I'm intrigued by the idea that Stevenson will put on a tournament. The sooner you guys publish a date, the better. And if we have no conflicts, we'll be one of the first to reply to an invitation.
And I'll wait until after Friday before making any proclamations about being 2nd best in IESA State. I'd be interested in seeing what happens in the Macomb-DW rematch; if Wright gets past that one, they should win the title with no sweat. We played Jacksonville Turner (their round 3 oppo) this year and beat them, 270-117, but that wasn't on a QG set, so who knows?
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: IESA Sectional Results

Post by Scobowls and Speedos » Fri May 08, 2009 11:42 pm

We have to talk to Fitz about scheduling the tournament... he said he would help us but so far we've got nothing. If you could suggest who we should invite for a field of 24 that would be great.
Zach Blumenfeld
Stevenson '11

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