The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon May 11, 2009 7:43 pm

cdcarter wrote:
soaringeagle22 wrote: Anyway, how many schools do you know that require something like 3 Credits [sic] in Fine Arts [sic] or 2 Credits [sic] in Sports [sic] for graduation? :wink:
Mine.
Yeah, I don't think this situation is at all unusual, no matter what stealth-editing tactics you want to use.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Mon May 11, 2009 7:45 pm

Johannes Climacus wrote:
soaringeagle22 wrote: EDIT: I apologize for having written a DBQ instead of a normal response over this.
I'll refute the one thing I know, conclusively, is wrong.

This ain't a DBQ- a Document Based Question- because you don't cite any documents.

Studying for APs has paid off.

EDIT: Also, what exactly is the rationale for discounting most modern music into the trash category? Does it boil down, pretty much, to "More people know it?"
I was remarking on the length rather than the actual format of the question. I would have been better served to use "essay" instead of "DBQ" in my attempt at humor.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by at your pleasure » Mon May 11, 2009 7:48 pm

Sports invoke the same forms of entertainment and emotion in a large amount of people.
Class, who can tell me what logical fallacy Nick is using here(and throughout his latest post)?
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Mon May 11, 2009 7:52 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote:Literature is an extension of the world itself
"Nature in her genius had imitated art." -- Ovid, Metamorphoses
"Life imitates art far more than art imitates Life." -- Oscar Wilde

I think you just defeated your own argument.
In my opinion, Sports deserve a place here because of the impact they've had on humans. The way they affect our history, psychology, our cultures and customs.
Name something notable in sports in the 16th century. Then do the same thing with arts.
The way they prove the laws of Physics and Geometry, and can disprove Superstition and incorrect theories.
Wat?
The way they can inspire works of Art about them, from literature to film and music.
So?
The way they hold sway over billions of people worldwide, and can cause no less than the leader of the Free World, the President of the United States, to take an active interest in them at the same time someone who is at the bottom of the food chain like me can be cheering on the same or opposing team.
Celebrities do the same, but I don't see you clamouring for 2/2 Celebrity Gossip.
Sports have such an impact on so many people in the same way Art impacts you,
Arts 300 years ago do. Sports 300 years ago don't.
and both are worthy releases from the cares of everyday life.
So is sex, but I don't see that in the distribution.
These people are important to me, and billions of others. Just because you believe this isn't "academic" and your interests are, doesn't mean I have to accept that. I am not making you say Fine Art is un-important, and I agree that it isn't.
Sports heroes are important to me too. I have little interest in psychology, yet I still consider that academic.
Argue the point from here on out folks, and stop hiding behind your crumbling Ivory Towers.
The crumbling you hear is actually me laughing uncontrollably at how ridiculous your arguments are.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon May 11, 2009 7:58 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:
Sports invoke the same forms of entertainment and emotion in a large amount of people.
Class, who can tell me what logical fallacy Nick is using here(and throughout his latest post)?
Oooh, ooh, call on me.

Could this possibly be some especially terrible example of argumentum ad populum? Mixed in with some other stuff I don't know the exact name of but is mostly the issue of presuming a bunch of people are backing him up?
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon May 11, 2009 7:59 pm

hwhite wrote:
Argue the point from here on out folks, and stop hiding behind your crumbling Ivory Towers.
The crumbling you hear is actually everyone laughing uncontrollably at how ridiculous your arguments are.
Fixed.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon May 11, 2009 8:00 pm

Ivory towers? Are you for real? The only ivory tower here is the one in your mind, where sports is (and has been) as culturally significant as fine arts.

How about we compromise: fine arts can be diminished in your "well-rounded education," and you can keep your ideal distribution out of quizbowl. Deal?

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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by at your pleasure » Mon May 11, 2009 8:03 pm

soaringeagle92 said
The way they can inspire works of Art about them, from literature to film and music.
Cite please.
Prof. Whoopie
Could this possibly be some especially terrible example of argumentum ad populum? Mixed in with some other stuff I don't know the exact name of but is mostly the issue of presuming a bunch of people are backing him up?
Correct!
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon May 11, 2009 8:05 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:
Prof. Whoopie
Could this possibly be some especially terrible example of argumentum ad populum? Mixed in with some other stuff I don't know the exact name of but is mostly the issue of presuming a bunch of people are backing him up?
Correct!
Yay!
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Mon May 11, 2009 8:12 pm

^Two people on our coaching staff, and several of my friends and family agree with me on this. If they had told me I'm wrong (which people don't have a problem doing, especially my mother) I would have stopped my arguments completely.

You seriously can't think of Art inspired by Sports? How about Picasso's paintings on Bullfighting? Or Degas' about Horse Racing? There's probably many more out there. And literature is filled with books on Sports, both fiction and non fiction. And many of those stories go on to form all those great Sports movies (technically, more sports based Art!) everybody loves.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Sir Thopas » Mon May 11, 2009 8:14 pm

I still don't see why you're exalting these few subjects over fine arts. My 6-year school requires 5 years of English, 5 of science, 5 of social studies, 4 of arts, 4 of foreign language, 2 of theater, and 2 of health.
soaringeagle22 wrote:Social Studies: explains our society and allows people to understand why things exist and why our society is the way it is. Also, Economics come in quite handy when it comes time to pay the bills, and Civics is vital for the health of our liberty. Psychology, Sociology, and Human Geography allow you to deal with other people and society. Geography is definitely handy in dealing with business, travel, or communication.
This is rather silly. How is knowing about quizbowl topics like the Hecksher-Olin Model or Pareto Optimality going to help me pay bills? I've never taken a civics course, and I think I'm part of a healthy liberty.
Math: Do I need to explain why you need to know how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide. A good basic math education allows you to manage money correctly, and also can keep you in tune with important info pertaining to nutrition and medication, among other things. Also, Geometry is important in many different ways from Carpentry to Fire Fighting.
Arithmetic, sure. But that's not stuff you ask about, or even stuff you learn beyond the age of seven or so.
Science: Biology and Chemistry both allow you to understand how the human body works, and can help you maintain yourself and the world around you. Ecology explains why we MUST take care of our environment. I don't particularly understand Physics. BASIC Computer Science (we're talking Microsoft Office, not Java Language) is a required job skill in most white collar positions. Also, even ordinary housework and car care rely on different forms of Science.
Here is where you're most laughably show your bias. I find physics much more informative and interesting than bio and chem; all three are necessary to have an informed concept of ourselves and the things around us.
Language Arts: This is the art of communication, something you must know how to do to get a job, or even buy groceries. Proper English skills allow you to communicate correctly, and get you ahead in life. Literature is an extension of the world itself, and can range from a Welding Safety Manual to Historical Fiction. It also helps explain the world. And Language is vital if you go into the many career fields that deal with people at some point.
Plenty of people get by without taking theater classes and whatnot. Reading The Catcher in the Rye isn't going to help me buy groceries. Welding safety manuals are not literature; on the other hand, poems and novels, whose necessity to an education you don't seem to question, are interpretations of the world around us, just like a painting or a symphony.
Fine Arts is an appreciation of something that is, well let's face it, entertainment and a way to express emotion. Here, you have to determine on your own opinion what is important, and while you may get base your moral being on a Haydn symphony, others may base it on how "He Stopped Loving Her Today" and "Amazing Grace" form the rock of their values of love and faith. This is human nature; you can't learn how to be a good artist. On the other hand, you can't learn to enjoy something you find boring or uninspiring. Sports invoke the same forms of entertainment and emotion in a large amount of people. There will be another artist as talented as Bach, and there will be another Basketball player as talented as Lebron James. Does that mean we should dismiss either for further academic study? No.
I look at all the implications of Newton's Second Law and well up at the beauty of the natural world. Does the evocation of emotion make it less valuable?
I may get my moral dictum from The Fountainhead, or I may get it from entirely within myself. Does this have anything to do with the academic quality of the former?
You said you don't understand physics; I take it you find it boring and uninspiring. Does that mean that understanding it is not an important part of a well-rounded education?
There will be another author as talented as William Gaddis. There will be another mathematician as talented as Leonhard Euler. There will be another historian as talented as Herodotus. I have no idea what you're getting at here.
Again, this is Quiz Bowl. We're testing a well rounded amount of knowledge. In my opinion, Sports deserve a place here because of the impact they've had on humans. The way they affect our history, psychology, our cultures and customs. The way they prove the laws of Physics and Geometry, and can disprove Superstition and incorrect theories. The way they can inspire works of Art about them, from literature to film and music. The way they hold sway over billions of people worldwide, and can cause no less than the leader of the Free World, the President of the United States, to take an active interest in them at the same time someone who is at the bottom of the food chain like me can be cheering on the same or opposing team.
This paean to sports has nothing to do with anything. Others have already said it, but again, art is passed down from culture to culture, generation to generation, and studied in schools and by scholars in a style and magnitude that sports simply are not. This is not an arguing point; this is an indisputable fact.
Sports have such an impact on so many people in the same way Art impacts you, and both are worthy releases from the cares of everyday life. I see beauty, love, and every form of emotion and respect in Sports, and view people like Patrick Patterson (passing up money and dreams for loyalty and a good education) and Jackie Robinson (you all know the story from, you guessed it, SCHOOL) as heroes. These people are important to me, and billions of others. Just because you believe this isn't "academic" and your interests are, doesn't mean I have to accept that. I am not making you say Fine Art is un-important, and I agree that it isn't.
Sure, watching sports is evocative for you. What does that have to do with its academic nature?
Argue the point from here on out folks, and stop hiding behind your crumbling Ivory Towers.
Are you saying that quizbowl is not, in its nature, devoted to gaining knowledge in certain ways to create a more comprehensive education? Because that's kind of what the ivory towers do. We're just generally less snooty about it.
Edit for cdcarter's post: Kentucky sees credits differently, I should have said 2 or 3 years of classes, not 3 Credits, which is only one year at your high school. My bad.
See the top of my post.

In short, your arguments are entirely irrelevant to the actual point. Just because you're mandated to work up a sweat during school does not make that subject academic. We had to learn some kinesiology in gym class; I have rightfully been rewarded for this with some biology points. Some people devote their lives to the history of sports. Many, many, many more devote their lives to fine arts. Besides, when do you ever learn purely about sports in school? I can learn about Jackie Robinson in school, as you say, but it would undoubtedly be put in the context of social change in the country. Nobody in high school teaches sports for its own sake; the same can not be said for arts.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon May 11, 2009 8:15 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote: And many of those stories go on to form all those great Sports movies (technically, more sports based Art!) everybody loves.
There is a difference between entertainment and art. As much as I love "Rudy," a famous sports movie, and as much as I appreciate the talent that went into producing it, it's not art. It's a football movie.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Mon May 11, 2009 8:17 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote:You seriously can't think of Art inspired by Sports? How about Picasso's paintings on Bullfighting? Or Degas' about Horse Racing? There's probably many more out there. And literature is filled with books on Sports, both fiction and non fiction. And many of those stories go on to form all those great Sports movies (technically, more sports based Art!) everybody loves.
I like your argument. In fact, I'm going to apply it to notable Quizbowl answer Lolita, and suggest we have a 1/1 pedophilia distribution.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon May 11, 2009 8:19 pm

The following statements don't actually have anything to do with whether things should be in the canon or not:
soaringeagle22 wrote:Economics come in quite handy when it comes time to pay the bills
soaringeagle22 wrote:Geometry is important to Fire Fighting.
soaringeagle22 wrote:I don't particularly understand Physics.
soaringeagle22 wrote:BASIC Computer Science (we're talking Microsoft Office, not Java Language)
soaringeagle22 wrote:even ordinary housework and car care rely on different forms of Science.
soaringeagle22 wrote:Fine Arts is an appreciation of something that is, well let's face it, entertainment and a way to express emotion. Here, you have to determine on your own opinion what is important, and while you may get base your moral being on a Haydn symphony, others may base it on how "He Stopped Loving Her Today" and "Amazing Grace" form the rock of their values of love and faith.
This deserves specific attention since it's not as absurd (!). What on earth does someone's "values of love and faith" have anything, anything, anything to do with academia? Are there schools in Kentucky?
soaringeagle22 wrote:There will be another artist as talented as Bach, and there will be another Basketball player as talented as Lebron James. Does that mean we should dismiss either for further academic study? No.
This is horrifyingly weird, because actually, we were saying that Lebron James isn't academic for reasons unrelated to the fact that he's not the best basketball player it's possible for god to bring onto this good earth. Are you reading our words?

The following just aren't true:
soaringeagle22 wrote:Literature ... can range from a Welding Safety Manual to Historical Fiction.
soaringeagle22 wrote:Sports invoke the same forms of entertainment and emotion in a large amount of people.
soaringeagle22 wrote:The way they prove the laws of Physics and Geometry, and can disprove Superstition and incorrect theories.
I submit for your examination: football players crossing themselves, Matt Millen, batting routines.
soaringeagle22 wrote:Jackie Robinson (you all know the story from, you guessed it, SCHOOL)
My school didn't actually have a "let's talk about baseball now" class. Our US history class was surprisingly about US history. Now, Ken Burns documentaries, you say...

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled irritation:
soaringeagle22 wrote:These people are important to me, and billions of others. Just because you believe this isn't "academic" and your interests are, doesn't mean I have to accept that. I am not making you say Fine Art is un-important, and I agree that it isn't.
So if Person A is important to Person B, Person A is academic, or at least it's perfectly okay for Person B to believe that Person A is academic even though no academic studies Person A? No! No, no, no. I had a crush on Mattea Carlini in fourth grade. She's not an academic subject. Please, please, respond to the arguments about what defines academia that we are actually making instead of making me shiver down in my soul about how there is a part of the country that thinks that you can define what is academic by asserting that it can help you read welding manuals.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Gautam » Mon May 11, 2009 8:30 pm

Man, the coupling constant between incorrect assumptions and stupidity in this thread is soon reaching infinity. The Landau pole is near.

EDIT: The physics might not make any sense, but you know what I mean...
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Mon May 11, 2009 8:37 pm

Andrew, the post about SS, Science, etc is a response to why people need those subjects more than Fine Arts and Sports. It starts talking about Quiz Bowl when it says "Again, this is Quiz Bowl"

Let may be very specific about this: I believe everything has academic value. The amount of value is objective, and that is why we are debating if Fine Arts are more important than Sports. I believe they are of equal import, the rest of you disagree.

Anyway, for what you say is false: A safety manual is a non-fiction work. Any very important for welders, thus they don't suffer from Welding Flash or burn their hands off. Are you literally saying Sports don't entertain people? And that they're not emotional about them? You're a little bit crazy if you believe that. And Sports prove superstition wrong all of the time. It used to be superstition that a Gelding couldn't win the Kentucky Derby. Two have won this decade. Just because some players (and the Lions' hapless GM) are superstitious doesn't mean that most of us don't realize it's because their a little odd.

And you also bring up that stereotypical view of the South that so many of us fight. Really, you're like a racist in my opinion. I wanna know, did your family win the freakin' lottery some time, because tuition to your high school is more than tuition to my college. And now you are at Harvard? Congratulations. Still gives you no excuse to look down on other people, though.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Sir Thopas » Mon May 11, 2009 8:39 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote:Andrew, the post about SS, Science, etc is a response to why people need those subjects more than Fine Arts and Sports. It starts talking about Quiz Bowl when it says "Again, this is Quiz Bowl"

Let may be very specific about this: I believe everything has academic value. The amount of value is objective, and that is why we are debating if Fine Arts are more important than Sports. I believe they are of equal import, the rest of you disagree.

Anyway, for what you say is false: A safety manual is a non-fiction work. Any very important for welders, thus they don't suffer from Welding Flash or burn their hands off. Are you literally saying Sports don't entertain people? And that they're not emotional about them? You're a little bit crazy if you believe that. And Sports prove superstition wrong all of the time. It used to be superstition that a Gelding couldn't win the Kentucky Derby. Two have won this decade. Just because some players (and the Lions' hapless GM) are superstitious doesn't mean that most of us don't realize it's because their a little odd.

And you also bring up that stereotypical view of the South that so many of us fight. Really, you're like a racist in my opinion. I wanna know, did your family win the freakin' lottery some time, because tuition to your high school is more than tuition to my college. And now you are at Harvard? Congratulations. Still gives you no excuse to look down on other people, though.
Can you please stop attacking straw men and answer the questions we're actually posing? Thanks.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon May 11, 2009 8:42 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote: Let may be very specific about this: I believe everything has academic value. The amount of value is objective, and that is why we are debating if Fine Arts are more important than Sports. I believe they are of equal import, the rest of you disagree.
Your words don't make sense. We are debating this because it's an objective issue? If it is objective, there shouldn't be reason for debate.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Mon May 11, 2009 8:45 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote:And you also bring up that stereotypical view of the South that so many of us fight. Really, you're like a racist in my opinion. I wanna know, did your family win the freakin' lottery some time, because tuition to your high school is more than tuition to my college. And now you are at Harvard? Congratulations. Still gives you no excuse to look down on other people, though.
Wow. That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Calm down dude.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Mon May 11, 2009 8:53 pm

No, that doesn't make sense, thanks for pointing it out. Maybe I meant Subjective.

Really, I've come to the conclusion that I'm coming from a view that none of you will ever consider. I understand you hold dear certain things as "Academic", but I believe that we shouldn't be exclusionary and dissmissive of topics that isn't in the intellectual's definition of "academic"

Quiz Bowl is meant to test knowledge, and I believe all forms of knowledge are worthy. I also think Sports have had an impact on a LOT of different things and deserve a place next to Fine Arts. What have the Fine Arts done that makes them more worthy than Sports? What about Sports knowledge makes it so much less significant than Fine Arts?

You say Sports are Pop Culture, which may be true, but I believe Fine Arts are as well, and Pop Culture isn't always a bad thing. I don't think the topics are worthy of a place such as History or Science, I'm just in favor of keeping the current Sports distribution in NAQT, which is still fairly minor.

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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon May 11, 2009 8:59 pm

Just go cozy up with :chip: already. I think you two might have some interesting things to discuss, like spelling questions. Spelling is knowledge, so we should test it in quizbowl, right? And driver's ed., too. And karate. And how many cups of water I need in order to make pasta for dinner tonight. And my third youngest uncle's name. Those things are all knowledge, right? So, of course, quizbowl should ask about them.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by ... and the chaos of Mexican modernity » Mon May 11, 2009 9:00 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote: What have the Fine Arts done that makes them more worthy than Sports? What about Sports knowledge makes it so much less significant than Fine Arts?
I would think that knowing Fine Arts, and not Sports would indeed be more like quizbowl. If you truly want something with sports, then go to a sports bar with 8:00 PM trivia or play on trash sets if you truly believe that sports are the most important.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Mon May 11, 2009 9:01 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote:You say Sports are Pop Culture, which may be true, but I believe Fine Arts are as well
This makes me cry.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon May 11, 2009 9:02 pm

soaringeagle22 wrote:And you also bring up that stereotypical view of the South that so many of us fight. Really, you're like a racist in my opinion. I wanna know, did your family win the freakin' lottery some time, because tuition to your high school is more than tuition to my college. And now you are at Harvard? Congratulations. Still gives you no excuse to look down on other people, though.
Stop personally attacking people. No one brought up stereotypes and no one's being "like a racist." He asked if you had schools because he doesn't get your argument.

I'll give you another post to present a real argument on this issue; failing that, thread's locked.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Mon May 11, 2009 9:15 pm

^Since most people would still dismiss it, I see no need to go over what I have already said, which is a legitimate argument if you go back and read everything I have said. Go ahead and lock the thread. I apologize for the inconvience.

Also, he talked about "a whole area of a country" and made conjectures about our schools on top of the multiple claims people have made about my personal intelligence from calling me an idiot to saying I'm not using any legitimate arguments or not backing them up with outside sources (which nobody here is really). I actually have attempted to in several of my posts, but people have conviently ignored them.

I'd like to go back to discussing things that pertain to myself now I guess. I may venture out of the Kentucky forum from time to time, but certainly not expecting any of you to listen to what I say.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by at your pleasure » Mon May 11, 2009 9:21 pm

soaringeagle92
Really, I've come to the conclusion that I'm coming from a view that none of you will ever consider. I understand you hold dear certain things as "Academic", but I believe that we shouldn't be exclusionary and dissmissive of topics that isn't in the intellectual's definition of "academic"
Before I give up on this thread producing anything of value and start mining it for a terrible parody of the Theater of The Absurd, I would like to catergorically state that we are not dismissing any of your topics as worthless. We are merely stating that they do not fall within the internally-defined boundries of what is askable in quizbowl because they are not "academic" in a traditional sense of the word.
It's not that nobody here finds sports or pop culture interesting. We simply do not conflate "Things we find interesting and worthwile" with "things that fit a traditional definition of academic",although there may be some overlap. To give a less toxic example, I find learning about fly-fishing more interesting than learning organic chemistry. However, by any plausible measure fly-fishing-related topics is less academic than organic chemistry(and less askable, for that matter). Therfore I think that it is better to ask questions about organic chemistry than questions about fly-fishing.
saying I'm not using any legitimate arguments
This is not a comment on your intelligence. Many intelligent people have assidiously avoided legitimate aguments, such as Plato.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 11, 2009 9:37 pm

Since I never got an answer to my previous question, right before this thread gets locked I am going to just tell you that you, and everyone who agreed with you who you are bringing into your side of the debate, are idiots.

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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by cornfused » Mon May 11, 2009 9:47 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:Since I never got an answer to my previous question, right before this thread gets locked I am going to just tell you that you, and everyone who agreed with you who you are bringing into your side of the debate, are idiots.
He is being an Idiot, even.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by BuzzerZen » Mon May 11, 2009 10:08 pm

Thank god this outlandish thread is over.
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Re: The Relative Importance of Art and Sports

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon May 11, 2009 10:43 pm

Two tempbans, a locked thread and my work here is done.
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