The John Adams Rule

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The John Adams Rule

Post by jonpin » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:20 pm

NAQT wrote:I.8: In rare cases, an otherwise acceptable answer may be ruled incorrect when it creates ambiguity with another plausible answer (e.g., even though first and last names are almost always sufficient, John Adams would not be acceptable--or promptable--for John Quincy Adams, as it creates confusion with the full name of his presidential father.)
ACF/HSAPQ wrote:G.18. For individuals who share a last name with another person who may be reasonably expected to be an answer in the same general category, some further form of identification may be required, at the discretion of the packet editors. In such cases, usually the first initial of the person's first name will be required. Unlike in the situation of people with identical first and last names, the person's actual first initial or name will usually be required. For example, answering "Shelley" will always result in a prompt for either Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley or Percy Bysshe Shelley, since both are figures from the same period of English literature and are thus considered part of the same general category. Giving either "M. Shelley" or "P. Shelley" is all that is needed to earn credit for a correct response. However, saying "Shelley the male" or "Shelley the wife" is not an acceptable answer to that prompt. As in all situations, commonly used pseudonyms and nicknames are acceptable in this situation.
G.19. For individuals who share both a first and last name with another person who may be reasonably expected to be an answer in the same general category, some further form of identification may be required, at the discretion of the packet editors. In such cases, this identification need only be something that is not already given as a clue and is enough to distinguish the correct answer from the plausible incorrect answer, and need not be formal or complete. For example, “Richard H. Lee” or “Richard Lee from the eighteenth century” is enough to distinguish the Continental Congress member Richard Henry Lee from the Richard Lee who founded the Lee family in Virginia; answering “Richard Lee” for either will earn a prompt. On a question looking for the 43rd U.S. President, “George Bush” will earn a prompt in order to distinguish from the 41st president. At that point, “George W. Bush,” “the second George Bush,” “George Bush the younger” or similar such answers are all acceptable, since the player needs only distinguish the correct answer from the incorrect one, and does not need to demonstrate knowledge of George Walker Bush’s full name.
These rules disagree. They probably shouldn't for the good of quizbowl.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by jonah » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:27 pm

I don't think they quite disagree; for the John Adams/John Quincy Adams situation, a moderator must apply G.19 instead of G.18 because G.19 is a more specific case. However, it's complicated and, in my opinion, should be simplified—perhaps by just eliminating the acceptability of giving distinguishing information that's not actually part of the name.

edit: I didn't notice that they were two different sets of rules. But in that case, there are other contradictions between NAQT and ACF acceptability rules, such as the vowel pronunciation issue.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by jonpin » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:30 pm

True. Another place of explicit contradiction is that NAQT specifically prompts on Andrew Lloyd Webber and ACF specifically rejects Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by fleurdelivre » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:51 pm

jonpin wrote:True. Another place of explicit contradiction is that NAQT specifically prompts on Andrew Lloyd Webber and ACF specifically rejects Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
How is only a partial name/title promptable? Webber simply isn't correct in this case.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by jonah » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:55 pm

fleurdelivre wrote:
jonpin wrote:True. Another place of explicit contradiction is that NAQT specifically prompts on Andrew Lloyd Webber and ACF specifically rejects Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
How is only a partial name/title promptable? Webber simply isn't correct in this case.
I won't claim to be able to read the rules' mind, but I think it's reasonable that a player could think "Lloyd" was a middle name that he always used; since the player is demonstrating knowledge and almost certainly has the correct answer in mind, I don't think it's absurd to prompt on that.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:14 pm

Rejecting Marquez for Gabriel Garcia Marquez is weird, as I have seen Marquez printed on the sides of his books.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:18 pm

It's still not his name. My guess is lazy publishers didn't realize that hispanic naming conventions often involve compound last names.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:27 pm

jonah wrote:I won't claim to be able to read the rules' mind, but I think it's reasonable that a player could think "Lloyd" was a middle name that he always used; since the player is demonstrating knowledge and almost certainly has the correct answer in mind, I don't think it's absurd to prompt on that.
Though I had never really thought hard about it, I probably would give "Webber" if a question came up. But, yeah, I can't find anyone who thinks that giving "Marquez" is acceptable.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by The Atom Strikes! » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:26 pm

I think that some respectable person (I think it was Andrew Hart, but I could be wrong), argued that just giving the final name of hispanic authors should be acceptable-- for example, Lorca for Garcia Lorca, on the grounds that this is the way that scholars tend to refer to them.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Terrible Shorts Depot » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:31 pm

Isn't there some sort of general guideline regarding pronunciation that says something to the effect of "if the pronunciation is believable if the answerer has never heard the name said, it is acceptable" (for example, GOTH instead of Gurt-UH)? Couldn't that be applied to compound last names? Like, if I've never heard anyone talk about Garcia Lorca and I assume that his surname is just Lorca, couldn't that be acceptible?
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Matt Weiner » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:17 pm

Federico Garcia Lorca's last name is Lorca, which is why that's acceptable outright. Not all Spanish names are compound; some are.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Jeremy Gibbs-Duhem Equation » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:22 pm

I was at a tournament in Lexington, Missouri and the girl who buzzed for Goethe pronounced it go-eth. The moderator stared at her for a second then accepted it. I have heard other people refer to him as that as well. I assume they just have never heard it actually said and came across it studying on their own.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Kouign Amann » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:24 pm

Jeremy Gibbs-Duhem Equation wrote:I was at a tournament in Lexington, Missouri and the girl who buzzed for Goethe pronounced it go-eth. The moderator stared at her for a second then accepted it. I have heard other people refer to him as that as well. I assume they just have never heard it actually said and came across it studying on their own.
I can similarly attest someone on our team once gave "PEE-uh-git," as the answer to a pysch tossup and had it accepted.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:25 pm

Yeah, this is fairly standard stuff.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:46 pm

My $.02
Last month, I had a 6th grader negged out for saying "Hippo-craytz" instead of "Hip-PAH-cruh-tees".
5 years ago, as a 6th grader, a current BHS player was negged out for saying "BUCK-a-nan" when the question described the bachelor president.

So, I'm very sympathetic to the kids who construct their own pronunciation of words, even around my own house...

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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by rchschem » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:19 am

Jeremy Gibbs-Duhem Equation wrote:I was at a tournament in Lexington, Missouri and the girl who buzzed for Goethe pronounced it go-eth. The moderator stared at her for a second then accepted it. I have heard other people refer to him as that as well. I assume they just have never heard it actually said and came across it studying on their own.
I would put it on the moderator to correct the player in these cases. Being that quiz bowl is a fundamentally auditory game, any competent reader or player should take it upon themselves to help their fellow man. Without sounding like a dick, of course.

I once had a player nearly counted incorrect for saying "VAG-ner" when the reader insisted on WAG-ner. We can't allow this sort of thing to happen.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by First Chairman » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:38 am

Since I'm no longer moderator, may I suggest moving this discussion to theory?
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by David Riley » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:58 am

The Illinois contingent has heard this story, but once at a tournament here a student buzzed in and said "rococo". The moderator hesitated a second, then said "I'll accept that, but around here we say 'baroque'". :roll:
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by millionwaves » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:30 am

First Chairman wrote:Since I'm no longer moderator, may I suggest moving this discussion to theory?
Good idea.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by women, fire and dangerous things » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:45 am

This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.

Given that this could happen, and given that there are no advantages that I can see to requiring only initials over requiring full first names (because I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know John Daley's first initial but don't also know his first name), I think that this rule should be changed to require full first names.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:50 am

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.

Given that this could happen, and given that there are no advantages that I can see to requiring only initials over requiring full first names (because I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know John Daley's first initial but don't also know his first name), I think that this rule should be changed to require full first names.
The idea is that you have to give the minimum amount of information to point to a clear, unambiguous answer. So, for Mary and Percy Shelley, M. Shelley and P. Shelley are sufficiently unambiguous, while just plain Shelley is not. By your logic, I could say "I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know [George Washington's last name] but don't also know his first name," and say we should require full names, but that would just be ridiculous. Requiring anything more than the minimum information is unnecessary and could keep those with knowledge from getting points.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by women, fire and dangerous things » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:02 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:The idea is that you have to give the minimum amount of information to point to a clear, unambiguous answer. So, for Mary and Percy Shelley, M. Shelley and P. Shelley are sufficiently unambiguous, while just plain Shelley is not. By your logic, I could say "I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know [George Washington's last name] but don't also know his first name," and say we should require full names, but that would just be ridiculous. Requiring anything more than the minimum information is unnecessary and could keep those with knowledge from getting points.
But my argument is that requiring the full first name doesn't keep those with knowledge from getting points, because nobody learns somebody's first initial and not their first name. On the other hand, it does allow people without knowledge to get points, as in the example I gave.

It's possible, sure, that there are a handful of people who legitimately know M. Shelley's first initial but not her first name, though I can't imagine how they would, but surely the number of people with knowledge who would be prevented from getting points under my proposed rule change would be much fewer than the number of people without knowledge who are being given points under the current system.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Theory Of The Leisure Flask » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:07 pm

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.

Given that this could happen, and given that there are no advantages that I can see to requiring only initials over requiring full first names (because I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know John Daley's first initial but don't also know his first name), I think that this rule should be changed to require full first names.
People get points off of making educated/plausible guesses without having full knowledge all the time. I don't see a problem with this.

Question about rule G19- do questions on the elder Bush normally require more identifying information than "George Bush" (i.e. Bush the Elder, Bush 41, George *Herbert* Walker Bush)? If not, then I don't see how prompting on "George Bush" isn't an asymmetrical situation where the moderator is essentially giving the player information that they shouldn't.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by jonpin » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:52 pm

Theory Of The Leisure Flask wrote:Question about rule G19- do questions on the elder Bush normally require more identifying information than "George Bush" (i.e. Bush the Elder, Bush 41, George *Herbert* Walker Bush)? If not, then I don't see how prompting on "George Bush" isn't an asymmetrical situation where the moderator is essentially giving the player information that they shouldn't.
That says that ACF's rule is to prompt on George Bush for either one. When it came up after ICT, someone from NAQT said their rule is to do the same. Of course, the Bushes both have middle initials.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Coelacanth » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:28 pm

women, fire and dangerous things wrote: But my argument is that requiring the full first name doesn't keep those with knowledge from getting points, because nobody learns somebody's first initial and not their first name. On the other hand, it does allow people without knowledge to get points, as in the example I gave.
Do you know the first name of Y.A. Tittle, E.L. Doctorow, H.L. Mencken, k.d. lang, etc.? OK, any individual player might know some or all of these, but your statement that nobody learns initials without names is surely unfounded.

This discussion reminds me of an incident from back in the day. I'm sorry I don't remember this guy's name, because he was a pretty good player, but he had a speech impediment. I'm not sure if the technical term is a stutter or a stammer or what, but sometimes he had a hard time getting words started. Anyway, we're playing against his team when a tossup comes up about Michael Jackson. He rings in and says Jackson and is prompted for more info. He starts trying to say Michael but it just comes out "M...M...". The moderator says "that's all I need; 10 points", as the answer on the sheet was Michael Jackson.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Theory Of The Leisure Flask » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:48 pm

jonpin wrote:
Theory Of The Leisure Flask wrote:Question about rule G19- do questions on the elder Bush normally require more identifying information than "George Bush" (i.e. Bush the Elder, Bush 41, George *Herbert* Walker Bush)? If not, then I don't see how prompting on "George Bush" isn't an asymmetrical situation where the moderator is essentially giving the player information that they shouldn't.
That says that ACF's rule is to prompt on George Bush for either one. When it came up after ICT, someone from NAQT said their rule is to do the same. Of course, the Bushes both have middle initials.
The example looks like it just says "on a question looking for the 43rd president". If further identification is in fact required for Bush 41, then good, that's as it should be; sorry for the confusion.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by women, fire and dangerous things » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:53 pm

Coelacanth wrote:Do you know the first name of Y.A. Tittle, E.L. Doctorow, H.L. Mencken, k.d. lang, etc.? OK, any individual player might know some or all of these, but your statement that nobody learns initials without names is surely unfounded.
Of course, I'm not suggesting that full names be required in cases where the person is commonly known by their initials, as in the examples you cited. I'm talking about cases like Mary Shelley, who is commonly referred to by either her full name or her surname.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:41 pm

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.
This was not your point, but I was shocked at HSNCT (as was fellow Illinois guy Matt Laird) that a question regarding a Daley did NOT require clarification. Maybe that's just the Illinois bias, but that seemed odd...
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:49 pm

Dresden The Moderator wrote:
women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.
This was not your point, but I was shocked at HSNCT (as was fellow Illinois guy Matt Laird) that a question regarding a Daley did NOT require clarification. Maybe that's just the Illinois bias, but that seemed odd...
I thought the exact same thing. In fact i heard my kids discussing this bonus amongst themselves during the game and Ryan said "well we can't just say Daley" followed by Trey saying "i know but that's all we got" or something and then eventually just settling with "Daley" and getting it right anyway, somehow.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Alejandro » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:22 pm

A.B.C.D E.F. Godthaab wrote:I think that some respectable person (I think it was Andrew Hart, but I could be wrong), argued that just giving the final name of hispanic authors should be acceptable-- for example, Lorca for Garcia Lorca, on the grounds that this is the way that scholars tend to refer to them.
It would have to be a little more complicated than that. The reason scholars use Lorca for Garcia Lorca is because Garcia is a very common last name and Lorca is much more uncommon. Normally, if a Spanish person uses only one last name, it's the first one.
Matt Weiner wrote:Federico Garcia Lorca's last name is Lorca, which is why that's acceptable outright. Not all Spanish names are compound; some are.
His last name is Garcia Lorca, not just Lorca.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Matt Weiner » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:37 pm

Alejandro wrote:His last name is Garcia Lorca, not just Lorca.
Britannica refers to him as "Lorca" throughout, and there's lots of articles such as this one http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals ... erson.html . (Note: Britannica is not the end of all discussion, because sometimes other rules come into play, as in my argument in the other thread, but in this case, I believe they picked the name for a defensible reason, and there certainly is no other person called "Lorca" that comes up in high school quizbowl to be confused with).
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Alejandro » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:17 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
Alejandro wrote:His last name is Garcia Lorca, not just Lorca.
Britannica refers to him as "Lorca" throughout, and there's lots of articles such as this one http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals ... erson.html . (Note: Britannica is not the end of all discussion, because sometimes other rules come into play, as in my argument in the other thread, but in this case, I believe they picked the name for a defensible reason, and there certainly is no other person called "Lorca" that comes up in high school quizbowl to be confused with).
I agree that "Lorca" should be accepted as an answer, as he is commonly referred to by that name. However, Garcia is part of his last name, according to my parents. Also, sites like this one seem to agree.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by vcuEvan » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:21 pm

Alejandro wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
Alejandro wrote:His last name is Garcia Lorca, not just Lorca.
Britannica refers to him as "Lorca" throughout, and there's lots of articles such as this one http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals ... erson.html . (Note: Britannica is not the end of all discussion, because sometimes other rules come into play, as in my argument in the other thread, but in this case, I believe they picked the name for a defensible reason, and there certainly is no other person called "Lorca" that comes up in high school quizbowl to be confused with).
I agree that "Lorca" should be accepted as an answer, as he is commonly referred to by that name. However, Garcia is part of his last name, according to my parents. Also, sites like this one seem to agree.
That Website You Just Linked To wrote:In his poems and plays, Lorca shows himself a careful observer of the speech, music and customs of rural society. One of the mysteries of his work is how the Andalusian countryside, described with such exactitude, is transformed into a universal space where the poet can explore all the deepest concerns of the human heart: desire, love and death, the mystery of identity and the miracle of artistic creation.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Pilgrim » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:31 pm

Although by Spanish custom his surname is properly Garcia Lorca, he is more commonly known by his mother's surname
Source: http://www.enotes.com/house-bernarda/author-biography
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by theMoMA » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:52 pm

His last name is actually Garcia Lorca, but because he is really famous, most people just refer to him as Lorca. Quizbowl usually does the same, as it should.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by New York Undercover » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:22 pm

This only tenuously related but should a response of "ethyne" be acceptable for the answer of "acetylene"?

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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Wall of Ham » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:32 pm

klebian wrote:This only tenuously related but should a response of "ethyne" be acceptable for the answer of "acetylene"?
Yes. Both IUPAC and the old, more common chemical name should be acceptable unless already said in the question.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by New York Undercover » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:40 pm

what if "C2H2" was mentioned?

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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:12 pm

Accept any of C2H2, ethyne, or acetylene until any of them are mentioned (or forever, otherwise). Since there's no plausible bonding configuration besides ethyne for that molecular formula (try deriving MO diagrams at home for other possibilities at home, kids! you'll learn something.), it's fine.
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Matthew D » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:17 pm

both should be correct because one is the more common name, while the the other is the IUPAC nomenclature
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by ... and the chaos of Mexican modernity » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:37 pm

I don't know if this may fall within the discussion, but for example this year one of the final tu's of our county tournament was on Charles I (Of England), yet I was prompted after I gave Charles I. Apperently I had to say Charles I of England, and looking back on one of the audio casts from NAQT in 2007 I believe, there was a tossup on Constantine I, but the person who responded with it was prompted. Is there any reason behind either of these?
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Re: The John Adams Rule

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:42 pm

Bakery, State, and Utopia wrote:I don't know if this may fall within the discussion, but for example this year one of the final tu's of our county tournament was on Charles I (Of England), yet I was prompted after I gave Charles I. Apperently I had to say Charles I of England, and looking back on one of the audio casts from NAQT in 2007 I believe, there was a tossup on Constantine I, but the person who responded with it was prompted. Is there any reason behind either of these?
That's funny; the standard NAQT answer line for Constantine is:

answer: _Constantine I_ or _Constantine the Great_ (or Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius _Constantinus_)

Meanwhile, unmodified "Charles I" usually indicates the man who lost his head in 1649; I'd want to see "Charles I of Spain" for that answer, or better just "Charles V." (And there aren't any other Charles Is tossupable at high school tournaments.)
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