PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:52 pm

I've worked on recruitment for the NSC the past two years. Each year, we've had a number of teams unable to attend due to graduation and each year it's been on a different weekend. Due to when nationals are held, you're just going to have this issue unfortunately.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by jonah » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:58 pm

How bad would it be to move it to late April? Then you run into AP studying, of course, but that might be less objectionable than conflicts with actual AP tests or graduation (or prom). Illinois doesn't really have any tournaments then, but what about other circuits?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:01 pm

A lot of people currently in college or who work at colleges are members of PACE. Most colleges are still in session in April.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Wall of Ham » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:03 pm

Plus there's also the collegiate nationals in April.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Gautam » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:06 pm

As far as I know, most state tournaments and/or season enders still happen in the last weeks of April/early weeks of May, and I don't think scheduling against those is beneficial.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:35 pm

klebian wrote:If I understand what you're saying, my point was that there would probably be fewer graduations in the third or fourth week of may as compared to the first or second week of June.
Okay. On what basis are you making that claim and, if it's true, why does it matter?

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:51 pm

Yeah, some areas of the country such as the midwest hold graduations then, so I don't believe that there is one true weekend that will maximize our attendance based on graduations. Also guys, note the other thread where someone says NAQT is probably taking the weekend before. Assuming this is true, this makes it impossible for PACE to run on Memorial Day weekend again despite what you all are calling for, and I guarantee you no matter which date PACE picked a lot of places would be having graduation conflicts.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Terrible Shorts Depot » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:56 pm

Every weekend from the beginning of March until the middle of June will have conflicts. Get over it. Pick something that you can change to criticize, like question quality.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:02 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote: NAQT is probably taking the weekend before
NAQT has a scheduling committe for a reason, right? Why not actually ask them which weekend they are taking? If they are amenable to shifting their date to the week before Memorial Day weekend, then there's no issue with PACE taking Memorial Day weekend (May 29-31, 2010). If they say they are already committed to using Memorial Day weekend, it's worth looking into whether more major issues arise with graduations, etc. from the weekend before NAQT (May 22-23, 2010 - this corresponds to about when PACE was this year without a major hitch and is after AP testing) or the weekend after (the currently-planned June 5-6, which may be an issue only for Klein HS and Georgetown Day, but somehow I doubt it).
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:53 pm

RyuAqua wrote:NAQT has a scheduling committe for a reason, right? Why not actually ask them which weekend they are taking?
Surely that was done.
To speak to your larger point: if one weekend is so much better than another, why is NAQT going to move off of the good one if they have it (and why is it optimal for them to do so?) I really don't see an answer to that, even accepting the premise that there's only one best weekend. On the contrary, if there are two or more weekends that are of about equal quality (which I strongly believe to be the case,) then PACE and NAQT will take one of each and it shouldn't matter in particular which goes where.

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Important Bird Area » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:56 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:
RyuAqua wrote:NAQT has a scheduling committe for a reason, right? Why not actually ask them which weekend they are taking?
Surely that was done.
It was, both over email and in person on Sunday.
Captain Sinico wrote:if there are two or more weekends that are of about equal quality (which I strongly believe to be the case,) then PACE and NAQT will take one of each and it shouldn't matter in particular which goes where.
And this was the sense of the discussion.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:30 pm

You can find the discussion regarding power matching at the NSC at http://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7936 .
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by dschafer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:09 am

millionwaves wrote:The tournament format for the PACE NSC in 2010 will be a 64-team tournament divided into eight brackets of eight teams each, seeded based on the team's performance-to-date with the goal of making each bracket both competitively equal to the other brackets and geographically diverse within the bracket. The top two teams from each preliminary bracket, by win-loss record, will advance to the championship playoffs. Teams 3 and 4 will go to the second playoff flight, teams 5 and 6 to the third flight, and teams 7 and 8 to the fourth flight. All ties for entrance into a higher playoff flight will be played off on half-games. Each flight will be divided into two brackets of eight such that the brackets are competitively equal based on prelim PPG but no rematches occur in the playoff brackets. Teams will play another round-robin against the other seven teams in their playoff bracket, be ranked by win-loss record, then (except for the top 4 in the championship brackets), play half-games to break ties and then play a final crossover game with their counterpart in the other bracket of their playoff flight for final ranking.

Those teams who are in the top 4 of each of the two playoff brackets (with ties for fourth place being broken by half-games) will instead play a 4-game crossover against the top 4 of the other bracket. The top 8 overall teams in the tournament will be ranked on their total record against each other over the 7 games they have played within that group--that is, the 4 crossover games and the 3 games that each team played in the first portion of the playoffs against other Top 8 teams. At this point, if a teams is 2 games ahead of the rest of the Top 8, it wins the tournament outright; if there is a tie for first, it is played off on a full game (or a series of PPG-seeded full games if the tie involves more than 2 teams); or, if a team is 1 game ahead of the second place team (or 2 or more teams tied for second place, who will play off on full games first in this scenario), then it will receive the advantage in a weighted best-of-three final of up to two games. The tournament will conclude with an all-star game played on an additional academic packet.

Under this tournament format, no team can win the tournament without playing all seven of the other Top 8 teams, and no playoff team can be eliminated from championship contention without losing at least twice in the upper playoffs. All teams are guaranteed at least 15 rounds of officially counted gameplay regardless of their prelim finish.
This is an awesome format.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by btressler » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 am

Regarding the actual execution of the tournament:

Would it be possible to hold your moderator meeting either before the player meeting or concurrently with it?

The last two years, we've sat in the round 1 rooms for 30-60 minutes waiting to start. I took note that round 1 started at 10:15 in the room I was in this year.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:56 am

If two teams out of each bracket make the playoffs, isn't it possible that both make the top 8? In this case, would you have them play a crossover game in addition to the game from the prelims? And which games would count in that situation?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by naturalistic phallacy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:18 pm

Bad Boy Bill wrote:Regarding the actual execution of the tournament:

Would it be possible to hold your moderator meeting either before the player meeting or concurrently with it?

The last two years, we've sat in the round 1 rooms for 30-60 minutes waiting to start. I took note that round 1 started at 10:15 in the room I was in this year.
This was discussed, and the meetings with probably be concurrent next year.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:03 pm

millionwaves wrote:The 2010 PACE NSC will take place on Saturday and Sunday, June 5-6, 2010.
Originally this worked for us, but now i hear that our tentative graduation date is June 5th (in the past, it's been the last week of May, but i guess we don't want to schedule it the same weekend as the NASCAR race that's in town at the same time). We surely can't go now. Oh well.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:03 pm

Schools should be more like ours and hold their graduation on a Wednesday.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:08 pm

How large is your school? We'll graduate around 450 next year so it's tough to do indoors anywhere. But believe me, i agree with you, and did so even before this news. I guess they want to assure that as many family members as possible can attend, and Saturday mornings work best for that. We usually fill up the whole football bleachers, and we have one of the biggest stadiums in the state.

Oh well, again.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:50 pm

You guys don't have some kind of nearby auditorium? All the NKC district schools held their graduations in the Municipal Auditorium/basketball arena indoors. Also, we did a Thursday graduation, so you should all complain to your schoolboards to change your dates.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by The Atom Strikes! » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:57 pm

Good god people, just man up and skip your graduations.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:16 pm

We have a big school, but I think we rent DAR Constitution Hall or something.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:27 pm

A.B.C.D E.F. Godthaab wrote:Good god people, just man up and skip your graduations.
That's what i keep telling them, Henry. But apparently Ryan and Seth already said "absolutely not" and Trey basically has said that it's too big of a deal to the family for him to skip. I guess we'll see.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Dan Greenstein » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:45 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
A.B.C.D E.F. Godthaab wrote:Good god people, just man up and skip your graduations.
That's what i keep telling them, Henry. But apparently Ryan and Seth already said "absolutely not" and Trey basically has said that it's too big of a deal to the family for him to skip. I guess we'll see.
I was under the impression that teachers are required to attend graduation anywhere and everywhere. Is this not the case?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:16 pm

Dan Greenstein wrote:
Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
A.B.C.D E.F. Godthaab wrote:Good god people, just man up and skip your graduations.
That's what i keep telling them, Henry. But apparently Ryan and Seth already said "absolutely not" and Trey basically has said that it's too big of a deal to the family for him to skip. I guess we'll see.
I was under the impression that teachers are required to attend graduation anywhere and everywhere. Is this not the case?
Sports teams skip finals for their playoffs all the time. Quiz bowlers should do likewise, unless they think quiz bowl is a joke.

Only about 15 of the teachers were at my brothers graduation on Saturday (in a school of 2000+ students).
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:37 pm

Fortunately, ours is Thursday.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:54 pm

Teachers do not have to attend graduations. I have to do crowd control once every five years, which is much too often as far as I am concerned.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Self-incompatibility in plants » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:57 pm

Sports teams skip finals for their playoffs all the time. Quiz bowlers should do likewise, unless they think quiz bowl is a joke.

Only about 15 of the teachers were at my brothers graduation on Saturday (in a school of 2000+ students).
I seriously hope that you aren't suggesting that the CR quiz bowl players think that quiz bowl is a joke. A team that has traveled to 13 regular tournaments, 2 national tournaments, and has played a total of over 140 matches this year is not a team that finds quiz bowl to be a joke. Let me remind you that everything we do, as high school students, is not entirely up for us to decide. For our families, graduation day is the culmination of the past 12 years. Even if we care more about quiz bowl, they don't. In any case though, your example of sports teams skipping finals for their playoffs is not exactly applicable for skipping graduation. We are more than willing and able to skip our exams (our families don't want to travel x miles to see us take a test...).
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:04 pm

nalin wrote:Sports teams skip finals for their playoffs all the time. Quiz bowlers should do likewise, unless they think quiz bowl is a joke.
I'm pretty sure that the fact that high schools just love their sports teams and will make all kinds of exceptions for them that they won't make for other extracurriculars shouldn't enter into this debate at all, no sir.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by cvdwightw » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:53 pm

Perhaps we can split all this graduation nonsense off elsewhere, but before we do that, I'd just like to note that there appear to be two types of schools:

TYPE A: Football stadium/auditorium(for smaller classes), school parking lots/surrounding area, etc. are perfectly serviceable facilities for conducting graduation. Therefore graduation can be conducted in the middle of the week, often on the last day of class, because things like "graduation rehearsal" and "crowd control" are relatively easy.

TYPE B: Facilities are not good enough for whatever reason (lack of stadium, lack of parking, school deciding that hosting it at school is not fancy enough). For instance, I think the Irvine USD schools and several local parochial schools held their graduations on the UCI campus (the four Irvine public high schools currently share a single football stadium; I'm not sure what the parochial schools' impetus was). In this case, it is usually easier to work things on a weekend.

That said, I hope that teams realize that there are really only 2-3 prime weekends for hosting a national tournament, and that inevitably, someone's graduation is going to conflict with the tournament. I'm sure PACE and NAQT take that into account when they try to figure out weekends.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:59 pm

Out of curiosity, has a site been decided yet? If not, is it likely to change?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Kechara » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:24 pm

Johannes Climacus wrote:We have a big school, but I think we rent DAR Constitution Hall or something.
I think the county rents out Constitution Hall for everyone. I know Paint Branch always graduates there on the first Friday of June. When your county has as much money has MoCo does, though, you can afford to rent out this big place for a week or two.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by First Chairman » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:55 pm

ColJade wrote:Out of curiosity, has a site been decided yet? If not, is it likely to change?
In all likelihood, we are trying to keep it in the DC area.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Charley Pride » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:31 pm

This is interesting...I guess I like the format changes, but I didn't mind the "visible" powers that were in place before. The date change may hurt, though, since it could conflict with finals schedules for some schools (I just checked, and Auburn finishes with school on the 4th). Am I right?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:53 pm

How many rounds are we scheduled to play on Saturday, and how many on Sunday?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Joshua Rutsky » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:57 pm

My team will be attending this event for the first time this year. Does anyone with experience in the area have a suggestion for a hotel that combines proximity to PACE with nearness to a Metro stop?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by I'm a goff (in case you couldn't tell) » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:47 pm

Joshua Rutsky wrote:My team will be attending this event for the first time this year. Does anyone with experience in the area have a suggestion for a hotel that combines proximity to PACE with nearness to a Metro stop?
GMU and the Vienna/Fairfax-GMU metro stop (on the western end of the Orange Line) are about 4 miles apart. There are quite a few hotels in the area between the two, mostly along VA-123 (Chain Bridge Rd) and US-50/US-29 (Fairfax Blvd or Arlington Blvd, depending on where you are).

If you're trying to do this trip without a car, your best bet is to look into the Fairfax CUE bus. Both the Green and Gold routes run between the Metro and GMU. I'd suggest looking for stops along the bus routes, if that's what you're looking at.

Not speaking on behalf of PACE, but one of our members looked at a hanful of hotels in the area for the staff, and these all looked decent: the Holiday Inn Express on Lee Highway, the Best Western on Chain Bridge Rd, and the Courtyard by Mariott on Lee Jackson Highway all checked out well. I haven't checked to see if these are on the bus line, however.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by MahoningQuizBowler » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:21 pm

Speaking solely for myself, I was able to book the Hyatt Fair Lakes at $59/night in Fairfax, which is 7 miles from GMU. They offer complimentary transportation to the Vienna Metro station.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Cassian » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:36 am

We looked at the Best Western and the HI Express - both seem to have bus service to the GMU campus and are right about the same price. I think we're going with the Best Western.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by I'm a goff (in case you couldn't tell) » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:36 pm

More travel information (via Tom Chuck and Tricia Southard from Facebook):

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/news/P ... s=facebook

Metro is closing the Orange Line between the East Falls Church and West Falls Church stops for construction on PACE NSC weekend. They are running shuttle bus service between the two stations, which will add delays if you're planning on using Metro to get to GMU or your hotel.
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Re: 2009 PACE NSC

Post by dtaylor4 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:00 pm

Based on my records, I have yet to receive checks from the following schools:

St. Joseph (NJ)
Alpharetta (GA)
Woodford County (KY)
Rancho Bernardo (CA)
Rockford Auburn (IL)
Maggie Walker (VA)
LASA (TX)
Loyola Academy (IL)
Holden (MO)
Warren Harding (OH)
State College (PA)
Georgetown Day School (DC)
Ocean Lakes (VA)
John T Hoggard (NC)
Wilmington Charter (DE)
Southside (SC)
Mission San Jose (CA)
Walter Johnson (MD)
duPont Manual (KY)
Richard Montgomery (MD)
Lisle (IL)
MLK Magnet (TN)
Copley (OH)
Troy (MI)
Patton (NC)
Ransom Everglades (FL)
Norcross (GA)
Seven Lakes (TX)
Shady Side (PA)
Langley (VA)
University (CA)

The deadline to pay without additional penalties is in a week. I have been in contact with a few teams, and will soon email the contacts listed for the above teams.

If you have any questions, send me an email, it is the best way to get in touch with me, and I usually respond promptly.

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Mon May 03, 2010 10:01 pm

I remember seeing a page that laid out the responsibilities of a team adult at/during the competition but haven't been able to find it since. Could someone direct me towards it?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Joshua Rutsky » Wed May 12, 2010 9:37 am

When should we be expecting to receive information regarding locations, schedule, etc?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed May 12, 2010 12:43 pm

Andrew's a Freshman wrote:I remember seeing a page that laid out the responsibilities of a team adult at/during the competition but haven't been able to find it since. Could someone direct me towards it?
Sorry, I didn't see this at first; I'll blame that on finals week.

I honestly don't recall this document, but I'll see if I can dig it up
Joshua Rutsky wrote:When should we be expecting to receive information regarding locations, schedule, etc?
Soon, I hope. One of the biggest delays right now is that Mike Sorice managed to cut up one of his fingers, which makes typing a bit harder.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by etchdulac » Thu May 20, 2010 1:42 pm

The Motley Eye wrote:Metro is closing the Orange Line between the East Falls Church and West Falls Church stops for construction on PACE NSC weekend. They are running shuttle bus service between the two stations, which will add delays if you're planning on using Metro to get to GMU or your hotel.
Should those of us coming into the area from BWI consider renting a car, or is doing the "bus - green line - interrupted orange line" at night with baggage not an unsafe idea?

Only been to D.C. on school trips and such; any better informed advice is appreciated.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by cchiego » Thu May 20, 2010 2:19 pm

etchdulac wrote:Should those of us coming into the area from BWI consider renting a car, or is doing the "bus - green line - interrupted orange line" at night with baggage not an unsafe idea?
I did the BWI-Greenbelt-Metro dance at ACF Nats at night and it really wasn't bad at all. The bus picks you up right from BWI (be sure to figure out exactly where in your terminal- for me, it was at the extreme left of the bus pick-up area) and drops you at the Greenbelt much earlier than the scheduled 40 minutes (I think it was less than 30 both times). Bring cash for the buses. Just be prepared for delays on the Metro and be sure that you get to BWI/the Greenbelt before the last bus leaves (I think it was around 10 on weekends?). A bit of a long travel time, but can't argue with BWI's insanely cheap prices.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by I'm a goff (in case you couldn't tell) » Thu May 20, 2010 2:37 pm

Here is the timetable for the B30 bus that runs between Greenbelt and BWI.

http://www.wmata.com/bus/timetables/md/b30.pdf?n
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Red-necked Phalarope » Thu May 20, 2010 3:00 pm

It also looks like Amtrak from BWI to Union Station is about $10, if time is at a premium and your schedule makes it feasible. I can vouch for the MetroBus to Greenbelt being totally reasonable, though I haven't done the bus leg to Fairfax before.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Kouign Amann » Thu May 20, 2010 5:47 pm

The Green Line generally only becomes "unsafe" once you get past downtown and into Anacostia; if you're transferring to the Orange Line, you should be fine. And yes, definitely be prepared for all sorts of wacky delays - Metro is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu May 20, 2010 7:50 pm

FYI, what's being asked about is this ill-timed/placed line closure. My supposition is that the route will still be safe given that DC public transit is some of the best. Indeed, I'm planning on traveling it myself. I do expect a not insignificant delay, of course.
I took buses and trains from BWI to GMU and back last year without too much ado, except that I think I barely caught the last bus going back. That said, I was leaving significantly later than anyone actually playing the tournament ever should, so that shouldn't be an issue for you guys. I took regional light rail inbound that was pretty good, but it wasn't running outbound that late on Sunday.

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