Kentucky 09-10

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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Beastman »

Anybody want to post the results for Louisville's Fall tournament? I want to see how things worked out.
Cole Phelps, naturally.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

This is what's posted in the UofL thread. I'm not sure what they rest of the finish order is, all I know is this top 6 and then how Grayson did.

1. Dunbar B
2. Manual A
3. Manual B
4. Manual C
5. Simon Kenton A
5. Danville A
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

soaringeagle22 wrote:This is what's posted in the UofL thread. I'm not sure what they rest of the finish order is, all I know is this top 6 and then how Grayson did.

1. Dunbar B
2. Manual A
3. Manual B
4. Manual C
5. Simon Kenton A
5. Danville A
It will be interesting to see how we do when we have our full line-up.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Kahloon »

grayson77 wrote: It will be interesting to see how we do when we have our full line-up.
How did Grayson do?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

We, as you know, were placed in a pool with the top two teams, and finished third in our pool.
This lead to us having a disappointing 9th seed and having to play against Danville in the round of 16.
We had a below average match and lost by 5 points.
Hopefully when our team gets Julie (around 20 ppg) and Joey (around 10 ppg) we will be more competitive with top level teams.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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Back to the team selection for HSAPQ. It seems pretty obvious to me what should be done. The coaches of the top five teams in the state, or some number like that, should get together and go through and make a list of players they believe would be good enough to compete at that level. They would separate out players by areas so they don't overlap. And have a vote amongst them to determine who makes it. This is assuming that they wouldn't try to load the team with their players. Impartiality would have to be stressed, but I would hope that wouldn't be difficult for them. This seems most fair to me.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

There are a bunch of ways that could go badly.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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With every option there are things that can go badly. Just seems like that is the most fair and is most likely to produce the best team.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

Beastman wrote:With every option there are things that can go badly. Just seems like that is the most fair and is most likely to produce the best team.
No, it's actually a lot worse than just using straight up Gov Cup results
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I don't know about feasibility, but the most effective method for determining the team would be a )possibly multi-stage) tryout.
Of course they would have to use reliable questions for these tryouts, it might necessitate some expense, but would be worth it.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Beastman »

I don't see how it would be worse than going by Governor's Cup results. Your coach will know of your strength in quizbowl better than the Gov. Cup results could show.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

Beastman wrote:I don't see how it would be worse than going by Governor's Cup results. Your coach will know of your strength in quizbowl better than the Gov. Cup results could show.
Coaches, in general, are notoriously bad at doing this..
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Beastman »

Then we get together a group of impartial players from the top teams. Basically, I'm saying it should be up to the top in the state as to who goes.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

On that issue, I think the idea is rather good.
However, they could overlook players from teams that are not as competitive at tournaments simply because they don't go to many.
I guess players from teams like these would not be likely candidates anyway, though.

On another issue, I think our league, PAA, is an a very odd position.
We have several of the states "top" quizbowl teams: Grayson, Madisonville, Owensboro, Apollo, Davies, Marshall, etc.
We have converted to a pyramidal style and our questions are actually decent this year.

However, I find it terribly annoying when there is a bonus question like the following:
He painted a triptych including The Elevation of the Cross and The Descent of the Cross, and he taught Anthony van Dyck.
His two versions of the Massacre of the Innocents were identified due to similarities to his painting of a strongman asleep in a woman's lap as a
man perches over him with scissors, Samson and Delilah. Identify this Baroque Flemish artist who painted many large, fleshy nudes.
*Answer is of course Rubens.

It doesn't make since that a team have to set and listen to a lengthy question when most good teams would know this after the first two titles.
I am glad that PAA is using pyramidal questions, but tossups and bonuses should not be the same format if they are both three to four lines long.
Also, if KAAC converts to pyramid, as they say they are attempting to do, I hope we do not see bonus questions like these.
Has anyone else seen this as a problem?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

Back to the selection thing real quickly...

A tryout is really the only way I know of doing it in a fair way. The bid must be submitted by March 18th, so either someone would have to set a date for doing it sometime this winter, or try to cram it in to the Saturday at State this year, although I would recommend doing it before then. I don't think the state organization itself should run it because KAAC questions are so vastly different than HSAPQ, and choosing the best players in Gov Cup is not exactly the best quizbowl team we could send as a state. Even if KAAC does submit a bid with the top few Gov Cup players, Kentucky is not bound by HSAPQ in any way, and if someone comes up with stronger team based on good quizbowl, they will (in all likelihood) accept that bid over KAAC's.

Now, how do we go about doing this? I have a proposal:

1) Form a committee of coaches, former players, officials, and other quizbowl dignitaries (KAAC folks should have a seat at the table) from across the state of Kentucky to administer the bid process.

2) The committee then announces terms for the process (how to apply, tryout date and location, etc.) after input from the quizbowl community. At this team, they should also decide how to fund the bid and the players selected. If KAAC helps that would be great, but the committee might have to charge an application committee, or even host a statewide tournament (for schools to compete in) to fundraise.

3) This committee requests applications from individuals from across the state. Applicants must not only submit a personal appeal, but also have recommendations from their coach and a number of opposing coaches. Coaches can write recommendations for an unlimited number of opposing players, although each school should probably submit no more than their few best players IMO. We can revisit that last point though.

4) After receiving all applications, the committee invites all those who applied to an open tryout at the previously announced time and date.

5) The tryout: for this the committee will need to procure good strong questions not heard by any Kentucky players, and hold a multi-stage tryout:
In the first stage, each applicant is faced with a packet of 20 questions, and must play against the packet to make it obvious they would be good enough to at least answer a question on a giveaway. The player would receive 20 points for early in the question, 15 points for answering in the “middle”, and 10 points for answering during or after the giveaway. 5 points will be docked for ANY incorrect answer, and 10 points docked for a “neg.” Also, they would be judged on what their strong and weak points are (for example, I was strong at History and weak at Science) for future reference.

In the second stage, the committee would select a top number of scorers (16, 20, 24?) and group them in balanced teams of four, and then have those teams play against the packet as well. This will assess how each player performs as part of a team, and also assess how the players’ strengths and weaknesses can help and hurt a team. One other benefit is that it allows us to spot players with bad habits like vulturing (especially if they neg on a vulture) or being a poor team player.

In the third stage, the committee would narrow the field to a top 12. These will be re-divided into three balanced teams of 4, who will play a round robin. This will test how those players perform in a game situation and can help spot players who crack under pressure and form other bad game habits that hurt a team. After that, the 12 players are then assessed in a “free for all” format where the players all play against each other on a bunch of quizbowl tossups. Maybe three packets worth of tossups even? After that, the committee will take their assessments from each stage, and weigh in on who they think the best players are. They should select a balanced group of players, for example: there shouldn’t be five good history players and a lit player. There should be the best players in history, lit, science, etc. Who knows, maybe the best lit player in the state is the best science player? Even in that case, an effort should be made to select the BEST TEAM, not specifically the six most talented players.

And after all of that, Kentucky should have found out its best team of 6. The committee should then make sure all players are able to compete in this tournament and can attend.

I am willing to help with this process in any way wanted. This is just a clump of ideas, not a binding, unwavering belief. Any suggestions for a better process would be awesome, and hopefully all of us can come together and send a great team to the tournament next year.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I think KAAC is a little confused.
Under the focus work section Ceremony is listed for JV Challenge.
It has been up online since a couple weeks after state last year.
Under JV Challenge it says Midsummer Night's Dream is the focus work.
I am very confused and slightly mad about this.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

grayson77 wrote:I think KAAC is a little confused.
Under the focus work section Ceremony is listed for JV Challenge.
It has been up online since a couple weeks after state last year.
Under JV Challenge it says Midsummer Night's Dream is the focus work.
I am very confused and slightly mad about this.
Eh, JV Challenge has never been too awesome even when they get the focus work right.
You'll probably still do well despite this confusion.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

That's pretty true; last year is was basically a series of buzzers races that resulted in Adair beating us by one point both times we played.
I guess is good for the average level JV teams, but the highest caliber teams get very little out of it.
It will be interesting to see if I can outscore players from Manual, Johnson, etc. on my tests, but that's about all Grayson will get out of it.

By the way, Sandy, if Dunbar enters two house teams in DAFT how will they apply to the NSC qualification process?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

grayson77 wrote:I think KAAC is a little confused.
Under the focus work section Ceremony is listed for JV Challenge.
It has been up online since a couple weeks after state last year.
Under JV Challenge it says Midsummer Night's Dream is the focus work.
I am very confused and slightly mad about this.
Read both.

Edit: How do focus works function anyway? Is there a set number of questions on the test, or do they just come up in Quick Recall too much?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

There are ten questions pertaining to the focus work on the language arts test.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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grayson77 wrote: By the way, Sandy, if Dunbar enters two house teams in DAFT how will they apply to the NSC qualification process?
I hope it'll count but I'm not 100% positive. We currently have too many volunteers so it should hopefully happen. I'll strongly recommend a third team regardless but it's of course up to you guys.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

We will be bringing three teams, but one will most likely be Freshmen.
We would send four or five, but 10 of our members are ACTing.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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grayson77 wrote:I think KAAC is a little confused.
Under the focus work section Ceremony is listed for JV Challenge.
It has been up online since a couple weeks after state last year.
Under JV Challenge it says Midsummer Night's Dream is the focus work.
I am very confused and slightly mad about this.
Coaches received an e-mail earlier this week stating that Midsummer Night's Dream was now the focus work. Apparently there were some complaints concerning the content of Ceremony which caused them to make the change.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I know that the format is preposterous and the questions so easy that Grayson, Manual, and some other teams will surely break 50 in most games, but I still would like to know people's predictions for JV challenge.

Section 1
Calloway County High School, Muhlenberg County High School, Madisonville-North Hopkins High School, Murray High School, Marshall County High School

Section 2
Breckinridge County High School, Owensboro High School, Daviess County High School, Apollo High School, Owensboro Catholic High School, Henderson County High School

Section 3
Barren County High School, Hart County High School, Glasgow High School, Franklin-Simpson High, Grayson County High School, Edmonson County High School, Greenwood High School

Section 4
Louisville Male High School, St. Francis DeSales High School, Saint Xavier High School, Seneca High School, Dupont Manual High School, Saint Francis High School, Trinity High School, Sacred Heart Academy

Section 5
Louisville Classical Academy, Shelby County High School, Oldham County High School, Henry County High School, Eastern High School, Ballard High School, Trimble County High School, Carroll County High School

Section 6
Danville High School, Bardstown High School, Marion County High School, Washington County High School, Adair County High School, LaRue County High School, Green County High School, Russell County High School

Section 7
Simon Kenton High School, Covington Latin School, Boone County High School, Villa Madonna Academy, Ryle High School, Dixie Heights High School, Holy Cross High School, Saint Henry District High School

Section 8
Campbell County High School, West Carter High School, Fleming County High School, Mason County High School, Bishop Brossart HIgh School

Section 9
Western Hills High School, Woodford County High School, Frankfort Christian Academy, Paul Laurence Dunbar, Scott County High School, Franklin County High School

Section 10
Berea Community High School, Madison Central High School, Owsley County High School, Jackson County High School, Lee County High School, Estill County High School, Clay County High School

Section 11
Williamsburg High School, Corbin High School, Somerset Christian School, Middlesboro High School, Bell County High School, Whitley County High School, South Laurel High School, Knox Central High School

Section 12
Russell High School, Johnson Central High School, Paul G. Blazer H.S., Paintsville High School, Greenup County High School, Boyd County High School

Section 13
Piarist School, The, Pikeville High School, Pike County Central High School, East Ridge High School, Letcher County Central HS, Belfry High School, The June Buchanan School
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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grayson77 wrote:Section 2
Breckinridge County High School, Owensboro High School, Daviess County High School, Apollo High School, Owensboro Catholic High School, Henderson County High School

Section 3
Barren County High School, Hart County High School, Glasgow High School, Franklin-Simpson High, Grayson County High School, Edmonson County High School, Greenwood High School
Well, I'm going to go and help coach Grayson County at JV Challenge and once again the pairings for JV Challenge confuses me.

KAAC is sending us to Franklin Simpson when Owensboro Catholic is 1/2 hour closer. Also, all of the teams in Section 2 are in our region, while Edmonson County is the only team in Section 3 that is. I guess we could logically fit into either section (and it's always nice to go against Edmonson), but it would have made much more since to be matched up with the Owensboro schools.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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Does anyone else find it distressing that Russell is allowing :chip: to host a tournament at their school?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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grayson77 wrote:Does anyone else find it distressing that Russell is allowing :chip: to host a tournament at their school?
Where'd you find this, Scott?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

He sent an email, to our coach, inviting our team to the tournament.
I am pretty sure that we will not be going; I think even quick recall would seem high quality compared to Chip.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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What isn't high quality in comparison?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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Kahloon wrote:What isn't high quality in comparison?
Quick Recall to NAC
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

Trivia Night at BW3 would seem high quality compared to Chip.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

He sent an email, to our coach, inviting our team to the tournament.
I am pretty sure that we will not be going; I think even quick recall would seem high quality compared to Chip.
I agree 100%. Unfortunately he also sent an email to our coach and she is enthusiastically entertaining the idea of attending said tournament. She says it's the only way to see teams that "are going to be at state." I told her right then and there that I would not be going.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I think Hart will be enough quick recall competition before state.
It's going to have four of what is possibly the top ten: Johnson, Madisonville, Russell, and Grayson; not to mention Blazer, Owensboro, and Daiviess.
If she goes to the Russell Tournament with the attitude that it is a foreshadowing of sate, she will be disappointing when Dunbar, Manual, Grayson, and a handful of other teams are more competitive than the majority of teams that attended :chip:.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

Well she is pretty clear on going. What could I tell her to make her renege?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

I don't think :chip: offers anything beneficial in regards to State. It's run on a format dramatically different than Governor's Cup, and KAAC has better questions than QU. Also, the competition there will not be that good I hope. There's no good reason to waste $75 and long Saturday going to Russell.

Anyway, good luck to all of the teams attending the secretive Hart County Invitational.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Andrew from jc »

soaringeagle22 wrote:I don't think :chip: offers anything beneficial in regards to State. It's run on a format dramatically different than Governor's Cup, and KAAC has better questions than QU. Also, the competition there will not be that good I hope. There's no good reason to waste $75 and long Saturday going to Russell.

Anyway, good luck to all of the teams attending the secretive Hart County Invitational.
We could always hope they change to HSAPQ
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Or, Grayson or another school could be rebellious and host a tournament on the exact same day.
It is no secret that Hart County Invitational is kept a closely guarded secret.
We actually had to appeal to the tournament director in order to go.
Does anyone know why this is?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Andrew from jc »

grayson77 wrote:Or, Grayson or another school could be rebellious and host a tournament on the exact same day.
It is no secret that Hart County Invitational is kept a closely guarded secret.
We actually had to appeal to the tournament director in order to go.
Does anyone know why this is?
The only I can come up with is that Hart County is looking for teams that have either shown up to the tournament before or just teams that they have heard about.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

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grayson77 wrote:Or, Grayson or another school could be rebellious and host a tournament on the exact same day.
It is no secret that Hart County Invitational is kept a closely guarded secret.
We actually had to appeal to the tournament director in order to go.
Does anyone know why this is?
Not sure, but Papa and co. advised us not to go to Hart County after they won it in 2008.
When is this Russell tournament? This is the first time I'm hearing of Chip's presence in Kentucky.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

Hart Count usually only invites the winners of each region (of the year before) in the state to its tournament.

Papa may have done that because the questions are terrible, the judges suck, and it's not the most well-organized tournament in the state. But it is really the only statewide tournament before KAAC state so I follow along.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

The Russell tournament is on February 27th, the week after regionals. It's the qualifier for NAC for the states of Kentucky and West Virginia. Chip is doing these all over the country, which is quite troubling in my opinion. Why Russell would agree to host the local :chip: -a-palooza is beyond me. I'm really disappointed in them.

As Scott already mentioned, I think it would be kinda cool if a Kentucky school hosted a good tournament on Feb. 27th just to stick it to :chip: .
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

akinney wrote: But it is really the only statewide tournament before KAAC state so I follow along.
I thought it was usually held in November?
Anyways, how would teams feel about Dunbar's spring tournament, which may be using HSAPQ (not 100% sure yet), being held on that date (February 27th)? If this were to happen, we would really appreciate the KY quizbowlers on this board to convince other teams in their area to come to a HSAPQ (possible NSC qualifier?) tournament rather than a Chip tournament.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Hart this Saturday (keep it hush-hush :wink: )
We would definitely go if it was on that date.

Also, is there any possibility that Dunbar could do a Spring Novice Mirror sometime in April or May?
I would like to see how I fare against other underclassmen across the state in quizbowl.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Faiyad »

Huang wrote:
akinney wrote: But it is really the only statewide tournament before KAAC state so I follow along.
I thought it was usually held in November?
Anyways, how would teams feel about Dunbar's spring tournament, which may be using HSAPQ (not 100% sure yet), being held on that date (February 27th)? If this were to happen, we would really appreciate the KY quizbowlers on this board to convince other teams in their area to come to a HSAPQ (possible NSC qualifier?) tournament rather than a Chip tournament.

We love attending your Spring Tournament. And we would like to come again, if we don't have another epidemic again. O.o
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

If Dunbar held a tournament on the same date as :chip:, there would be no doubt as to whether or not MNHHS would come. Among other reasons, it's a few hours short as far as driving is concerned (I'm not sure, because I don't feel like checking, but it IS shorter).
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

Make sure to invite plenty of WV teams too. :chip: is trying to get them to the travesty at Russell too.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Andrew from jc »

It would be nice to go to the Spring Tournament, Sandy. It's always one my favorite ones to play
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by CALClass82 »

Two items related to recent posts:
1. Evidently, Hart Co. expanded their tournament invitations at late notice because I received one at school yesterday. The letter explained that state marching band competitions this weekend had reduced their usual field of teams.
2. I also recently received (and ignored) an e-mail invitation from Chip regarding the QU tournament at Russell. I'm guessing other Louisville area teams received similar invitations.

Looking forward to next year when I hope to have a team ready and willing to travel, prepared for more than KAAC Quick Recall.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

After looking at the calendar, it looks like Hunter is hosting Prison Bowl on February 27th. Dunbar will most likely go to the main site at Hunter so Dunbar's tournament will probably be on March 6th.
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