Georgia 2009-2010

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:57 am

Matt Weiner wrote: So, what "6-8 line tossup" fans are you denouncing here, exactly?
I think Dunbar's tournament is going to have 7 line tossups, so I guess he may have been referring to that.

I don't exactly see what his problem with questions being "chock full of clues" are. I always thought that getting more clues was a good thing, even if they were hard clues. It's at least better than getting burned on countless one-liners by speed-trained buzzer superheroes who've been trained on endless lists and math tricks.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by centralhs » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:37 am

In Gazi's defense, if you read back over his posts, he never said that he didn't like questions "chock full of clues." He used that phrase in saying that the only objection that he could see someone finding with Brookwood's questions was that they were short and therefore NOT chock full of clues. In a later post, he said that not everyone likes really long (6+ line) tosssups. In looking through just the 2009 tournament sets on HS Packet Archive, I did see several sets that employ tossups longer than 5 lines -- such as Weekend of Quizbowl, From Here to Eternity, and Thomas Jefferson's MOHIT. (I am not saying that these sets of questions are not excellent sets, I am just commenting on the question length.)

As Matt pointed out, NAQT questions max out at 5 lines; in my opinion, the length of their questions is ideal. Clearly there is a middle ground between a one-liner and a 7-8 line tossup that goes on for so long that, by the end, it is hard to remember the beginning.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:02 am

centralhs wrote:In Gazi's defense, if you read back over his posts, he never said that he didn't like questions "chock full of clues." He used that phrase in saying that the only objection that he could see someone finding with Brookwood's questions was that they were short and therefore NOT chock full of clues.
I did look back at it and I see what you are saying. I stand corrected, and I'd like to apologize to Gazi for misinterpreting his posts.

But I do stand by my statement that questions with lots of clues (good clues, not blender noise clues) are good questions.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:16 am

Sometimes I wonder what folks mean when they say "short" questions?

Some years Brookwood has used a four-part format with the first part of every match having short (1-2 sentence) tossups. The rest of th matrch's tossups were loners, meaning 4-6 sentences. Other years we've had no 1-2 sentence tossups in our tournament at all. Recently (2007 and 2008) we have had no short tossups at all and that is the plan for this year as well.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by grashid » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:24 am

Huang wrote:
grashid wrote:They don't even have trash/sports.
I guess that's a slight positive
grashid wrote:Here's a thought. Not everyone wants to hear 6-8 line tossups.
Not everyone knows what's good if they' consider what's bad as good
grashid wrote: What you do at practice is up to you, but getting angry and leaving seems pretty silly to me.
How silly of me to not enjoy :chip: like questions.
I actually like the occasional sports/ trash, but thats a matter for another discussion.
Again, its subjective (your good vs bad statement). Someone may consider long questions good and others may not consider it good. If you like longer questions, then thats fine, but you have to consider that not everyone does.
I don't consider BISB questions Chip-like, and even if I did, I wouldn't leave practice. But that might be due to differences in mindset: you might practice to learn, I go to practice to have fun.

I do agree with Ms. Hirsch that NAQT question length is ideal. But again, thats just my opinion.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:34 pm

I would strongly agree with Gazi that NAQT questions and those of similar "style" are ideal, particularly in comparison to 1 sentence buzzer races or 6+ line novellas. I particularly like the fact that most of the NAQT questions I have read over the years are very well-edited in terms of grammar, spelling, etc. I cannot say the same for some other questions I have read in the last couple years.

Further, I have read plenty of shorter, 2-3 sentence tossups that were vastly superior in regard to pyramidality and editing than longer, 4-5 sentence ones, and vice versa. In other words, it depends more on the writers and editors of the questions than the actual length of said questions in terms of overall quality, in my opinion. However, the "middle-ground" of 3-5 sentences seems to be the best in terms of balancing several clues with pyramidality while keeping the tossups manageable so as to make them easier to edit, read, comprehend, and answer.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:18 pm

Huang wrote:
grashid wrote: Quality seems like a subjective quality to me. Different teams like different styles/lengths/distributions.
Right..so if you think :chip: uses high quality questions, then I guess you'll love Brookwood questions.
grashid wrote: And what seems more nonsensical to me is that you would leave practice because you were angry about questions.
So I guess I should waste my time playing :chip: like questions. Sounds like a wonderful idea.
Hold on there Sandy. Not all questions you don't like are Chip-Beall-like questions (nor are all short questions). I think you're overexaggerating. One problem I think you encounter is that of different quizbowl eras. Brookwood's been around forever, so I'd imagine that their questions and the 80s and 90s were, like all others of the time period, short and rather clue-sparse compared to the current time period. And yes, people playing those questions now would be frustrated with them. But I have also played (and read) Brookwood questions from the current era, and they are, while not perhaps the best, good for what a high school housewrite should produce, and they are most definitely pyramidal and fairly clue-dense.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by dtaylor4 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:43 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:But I have also played (and read) Brookwood questions from the current era, and they are, while not perhaps the best, good for what a high school housewrite should produce, and they are most definitely pyramidal and fairly clue-dense.
So we should hold different tournaments to different standards based on who writes them?

No matter the source of the questions, all tournaments should meet a basic standard of quality, regardless of who's writing them. Last year, the Prison Bowl set was produced primarily by high schoolers, and was lauded as the best non-vendor set of the year.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Huang » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:15 am

AlphaQuizBowler wrote: Hold on there Sandy. Not all questions you don't like are Chip-Beall-like questions (nor are all short questions). I think you're overexaggerating.
Possibly but not by much
AlphaQuizBowler wrote: But I have also played (and read) Brookwood questions from the current era
So have I. More on this at the end of the post.
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:while not perhaps the best, good for what a high school housewrite should produce
No they're not
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:they are most definitely pyramidal
If pyramidal means adding three lines of vague bad clues to a tossup that degenerates into the following scenarios:
A) Some player guesses on a vague clue and gets it right
B) Every player is confused by all the various vague bad clues so everyone waits until an actual good clue finally gets read at the giveaway causing everyone to participate in a massive horrendous buzzer race
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:and fairly clue-dense.
Right and I'm playing quizbowl right now in the year 1999.


Look, Brookwood can be given props for at least honestly trying to write a good tournament. But let's get with the times already. Most of the questions just play poorly according to modern standards. Sure, Brookwood will still be making major cash with their tournament due to tradition and what not. But it's a simple choice: write another bad tournament and still make a ton of money or write a good tournament and still make a ton of money. The choice seems easy, but some serious work is needed if they choose the latter. The logic of the argument that Brookwood writes bad questions to cater to an audience that loves them is a dangerous one to follow. It doesn't take much imagination to figure what kind of horrendous things this sort of logic justifies.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:28 am

dtaylor4 wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:But I have also played (and read) Brookwood questions from the current era, and they are, while not perhaps the best, good for what a high school housewrite should produce, and they are most definitely pyramidal and fairly clue-dense.
So we should hold different tournaments to different standards based on who writes them?

No matter the source of the questions, all tournaments should meet a basic standard of quality, regardless of who's writing them. Last year, the Prison Bowl set was produced primarily by high schoolers, and was lauded as the best non-vendor set of the year.
Did you completely miss the part of my post where I held them up to "a basic standard of quality," judged that they were "not perhaps the best," but concluded that they were good because they were "pyramidal and fairly clue-dense?"
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:32 am

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Did you completely miss the part of my post where I held them up to "a basic standard of quality," judged that they were "not perhaps the best," but concluded that they were good because they were "pyramidal and fairly clue-dense?"
Donald's clearly arguing--and I don't know where I stand on this; I just wanted to clarify this point)--that the idea of judging a set as "good for what a high school housewrite should produce" is silly. For example, Chip Beall (a convenient example!) rejects contact with good quizbowl tournaments and probably hasn't read a tenth as many good questions as Prison Bowl. Does that mean that a Chip set that (to be generous) has a tenth the positive qualities that Prison Bowl is equally as "good" because it does as much to live up to its potential (considering the exposure of those who produced it) as a set? Of course not.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:38 am

I happen to, at the moment, have both Dorman and Brookwood JV questions in front of me and can hopefuly produce a clear comparison. I can't say which of these packets in your collective opinions has a better reputation for quality but, as far as I know, Dorman is known for just about everything in the quizbowl world.

With a comparison of round 5 of the 2009 Brookwood JV Scholars Bowl and the 2009 Dorman JV Cavalier Challenge:

Dorman:

Quarter 1- 10 tossups, 2 - 2 1/2 lines each. Includes computational math. Average of 3 pyramidal clues each.

Quarter 2- 5 tossups, 5-6 lines each. 2 related bonuses per tossup. Pyramidal.

Quarter 3- Worksheet. 15 related questions each 2-3 lines each. Collaboration, time limit, etc.

Quarter 4- 8 tossups. 5-6 lines each. 20 points each. Pyramidal.

Brookwood:

15 tossups. 2 related bonuses per tossup. 4-7 lines each (generally 6). 2 math computations per round.

I'd say a distinct difference in the longer tossups is the absence of names in the first 2 lines of each tossup in Dorman questions. That may better discourage studying lists. I can't say I'm all that interested in this debate, though. I find it annoying that the mention of a Brookwood tournament stirs up so much activity in the Georgia thread by those that do not participate in Georgia tournaments, or, not to include travelers, the state tournament.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:41 am

Sandy, I understand that you might be having a lot of fun going on your anti-bad-quizbowl crusade, but your choice of target has made it more of a witch hunt. Do I like Brookwood questions better than HSAPQ? No, and I'm guessing you don't either.
Huang wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote: But I have also played (and read) Brookwood questions from the current era
So have I. More on this at the end of the post.
Might I ask which year's packet's you've actually read? Have you read last year's JV set?
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:while not perhaps the best, good for what a high school housewrite should produce
No they're not
Could you quit begging the question and provide some support, please?
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:they are most definitely pyramidal
If pyramidal means adding three lines of vague bad clues to a tossup that degenerates into the following scenarios:
A) Some player guesses on a vague clue and gets it right
B) Every player is confused by all the various vague bad clues so everyone waits until an actual good clue finally gets read at the giveaway causing everyone to participate in a massive horrendous buzzer race
Ignoring the fact that you imply that I don't actually know what pyramidal means, I would say again that, yes, some Brookwood questions I have read are like this, but more recent ones are, in fact, not.
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:and fairly clue-dense.
Right and I'm playing quizbowl right now in the year 1999.
I don't even know what you mean by this.
Look, Brookwood can be given props for at least honestly trying to write a good tournament.
So, if you believe that Brookwood is making an honest effort, why would you adopt an agressive tone in dealing with them and commenting on their questions? That seems antithetical to the spread of good quizbowl.
The logic of the argument that Brookwood writes bad questions to cater to an audience that loves them is a dangerous one to follow. It doesn't take much imagination to figure what kind of horrendous things this sort of logic justifies.
Where in this thread does anyone even imply this argument?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:42 am

Andrew's a Freshman wrote:I find it annoying that the mention of a Brookwood tournament stirs up so much activity in the Georgia thread by those that do not participate in Georgia tournaments, or, not to include travelers, the state tournament.
Since this board is open to everyone's use and all regional-based fallacies are prohibited, I'll request that you keep this particular annoyance to yourself in the future. You're putting forth actual arguments in the remainder of your post; stick to that.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:46 am

Norman the Lunatic wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Did you completely miss the part of my post where I held them up to "a basic standard of quality," judged that they were "not perhaps the best," but concluded that they were good because they were "pyramidal and fairly clue-dense?"
Donald's clearly arguing--and I don't know where I stand on this; I just wanted to clarify this point)--that the idea of judging a set as "good for what a high school housewrite should produce" is silly. For example, Chip Beall (a convenient example!) rejects contact with good quizbowl tournaments and probably hasn't read a tenth as many good questions as Prison Bowl. Does that mean that a Chip set that (to be generous) has a tenth the positive qualities that Prison Bowl is equally as "good" because it does as much to live up to its potential (considering the exposure of those who produced it) as a set? Of course not.
I apologize for being a bit unclear: I think that the Brookwood questions are good because they adhere to pyramidality and relative clue-density. The fact that they were a high school housewrite really just adds to that. And I think using Prison Bowl as a counterexample is a bit disingenuous, as it was produced by multiple top-ranked players from multiple top-ranked schools, while Brookwood is produced by one (albeit top-ranked) school.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by dtaylor4 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:18 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:
Norman the Lunatic wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Did you completely miss the part of my post where I held them up to "a basic standard of quality," judged that they were "not perhaps the best," but concluded that they were good because they were "pyramidal and fairly clue-dense?"
Donald's clearly arguing--and I don't know where I stand on this; I just wanted to clarify this point)--that the idea of judging a set as "good for what a high school housewrite should produce" is silly. For example, Chip Beall (a convenient example!) rejects contact with good quizbowl tournaments and probably hasn't read a tenth as many good questions as Prison Bowl. Does that mean that a Chip set that (to be generous) has a tenth the positive qualities that Prison Bowl is equally as "good" because it does as much to live up to its potential (considering the exposure of those who produced it) as a set? Of course not.
I apologize for being a bit unclear: I think that the Brookwood questions are good because they adhere to pyramidality and relative clue-density. The fact that they were a high school housewrite really just adds to that. And I think using Prison Bowl as a counterexample is a bit disingenuous, as it was produced by multiple top-ranked players from multiple top-ranked schools, while Brookwood is produced by one (albeit top-ranked) school.
Brookwood as a collective has much more experience at producing questions, due to its longevity. If this experience has not been passed down, then I am not surprised at the accusations laid against it. It is because of this longevity that the tournament is held to a high standard, like all tournaments should be. The fact that the tournament regularly draws so many teams is beside the point.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:32 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:
Norman the Lunatic wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Did you completely miss the part of my post where I held them up to "a basic standard of quality," judged that they were "not perhaps the best," but concluded that they were good because they were "pyramidal and fairly clue-dense?"
Donald's clearly arguing--and I don't know where I stand on this; I just wanted to clarify this point)--that the idea of judging a set as "good for what a high school housewrite should produce" is silly. For example, Chip Beall (a convenient example!) rejects contact with good quizbowl tournaments and probably hasn't read a tenth as many good questions as Prison Bowl. Does that mean that a Chip set that (to be generous) has a tenth the positive qualities that Prison Bowl is equally as "good" because it does as much to live up to its potential (considering the exposure of those who produced it) as a set? Of course not.
I apologize for being a bit unclear: I think that the Brookwood questions are good because they adhere to pyramidality and relative clue-density. The fact that they were a high school housewrite really just adds to that. And I think using Prison Bowl as a counterexample is a bit disingenuous, as it was produced by multiple top-ranked players from multiple top-ranked schools, while Brookwood is produced by one (albeit top-ranked) school.
Brookwood as a collective has much more experience at producing questions, due to its longevity. If this experience has not been passed down, then I am not surprised at the accusations laid against it. It is because of this longevity that the tournament is held to a high standard, like all tournaments should be.
Okay, but due to the fairly recent advent of pyramidal questions, most of that experience due to longevity isn't applicable to modern-era quizbowl. And I'm not sure how this experience could accumulate on a high school team where people are graduating every year.
The fact that the tournament regularly draws so many teams is beside the point.
Did I ever try to make this point?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:40 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:I apologize for being a bit unclear: I think that the Brookwood questions are good because they adhere to pyramidality and relative clue-density. The fact that they were a high school housewrite really just adds to that. And I think using Prison Bowl as a counterexample is a bit disingenuous, as it was produced by multiple top-ranked players from multiple top-ranked schools, while Brookwood is produced by one (albeit top-ranked) school.
It's hardly disingenuous when I'm using it to back Donald's point that precisely who is at work producing a tournament means bupkis in regards to how we comment on its quality. But if you do think that Daichi's contributions alone are what made Prison Bowl good, then pretend I said GSAC.

But okay, you are recanting your phrasing and using phrasing that makes more sense. I am more negative than you are about most things, and so I reserve good for "free of problems" and judge Brookwood's questions to be otherwise.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:04 pm

I'm curious, Andy, what was the last Brookwood tournament you saw questions from, not counting the HSAPQ one last year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:22 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:I'm curious, Andy, what was the last Brookwood tournament you saw questions from, not counting the HSAPQ one last year.
I'm not actually sure of the basis for my assertion; I just know that I made the judgement sometime in the past. What I can recollect immediately is assertions you made re: a former player's evaluation of the questions.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by dtaylor4 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:30 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:
dtaylor4 wrote:Brookwood as a collective has much more experience at producing questions, due to its longevity. If this experience has not been passed down, then I am not surprised at the accusations laid against it. It is because of this longevity that the tournament is held to a high standard, like all tournaments should be.
Okay, but due to the fairly recent advent of pyramidal questions, most of that experience due to longevity isn't applicable to modern-era quizbowl. And I'm not sure how this experience could accumulate on a high school team where people are graduating every year.
Experience should be passed down from the elders to the younger players. Mr. Barry himself has stated that Georgia has been using pyramidal questions for a long time, so Brookwood clearly should have experience in that area.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AdamL » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:32 pm

Edit: this post is no longer relevant, can someone delete it?
Last edited by AdamL on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:33 pm

AdamL wrote:wait what

I haven't been following this conversation closely, so maybe I'm missing some context, but I don't remember making any public comments on Brookwood's house-written sets. I do remember talking about the typos and stuff in the HSAPQ set they used last year.
Yeah; I'd confused your comments re: the HSAPQ set with someone else's comments re: former sets. Fixed accordingly to prevent confusion.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:04 pm

It seems to me that the evolution of quizbowl questions is what is really at the heart of this rather heated debate. It also seems to me that instead of attacking what Brookwood has done in the past, we should look at the body of their work and judge what are they trying to do with their tournament, year after year, and compare that to what current "good" quizbowl demands. Namely:

1) Does Brookwood seek to have only academic questions in their set? Yes; I cannot find any tossups from the past 10 years that I would easily classify as trash / pop culture. (There are a couple bonus parts here and there, but not many). This cannot be said for all tournaments purporting to represent "good" quizbowl over that same time span.

2) Are Brookwood's tossups pyramidal and clue-dense in structure? Yes, again. In fact, Brookwood's tossups have grown in length and clue density over the past 10 years from what I have seen and remember. As times and tastes have changed, so to have the questions at Brookwood. This shows to me a genuine concern for producing "good" quizbowl questions. And, to further this point, last year they went with a question-writing company (HSAPQ), which contains the major focuses of #1 and #2 in their organization's title, in order to achieve this goal. Other than the editing horrors that came with that set of questions, I heard many coaches and many more players applauding the set that Saturday. Obviously, those that worked and read at the tournament had a slightly different opinion, but the fact remains that Brookwood sought out and hired a company that has as its mission to produce academic, pyramidal questions. I think that says a lot about what Brookwood views as important in regard to their questions and tournament.

3) Does Brookwood seek only to make money off of their tournament, or are they truly trying to find the best team present on that day? I say that they are trying to find the best team present by virtue of their clear concerns for #1 and #2. There are many smart people at Brookwood who could easily host a community Trivia Night to raise money for their Team, and, at this Trivia Night they could ask all the trash and one-line, clue-vapid questions they wanted to and the non-quizbowl people would eat it up. But, this is not what Brookwood has done over the years. Instead, they have tried to host one of the largest and best examples of "good" quizbowl every year for the past 20+ years. If that isn't a sign of a program dedicated to furthering "good" quizbowl, I am not sure what is.

Finally, are questions written for the BISB the same as those of 1, 2, or even 3 years ago? Absolutely not. However, the same thing can be said for NAQT questions and PACE questions. Plus, I would bet that if HSAPQ wants to stay in business for many years to come, then they too will change and adapt to the times, should they shift, to make their questions as close to what "good" quizbowl is as they can. Will "good" quizbowl look like it currently does 10 years from now? I have no idea. But, what I am certain off is that based upon everything I have seen over the past 10+ years, the people at Brookwood will try to meet the future needs of "good" quizbowl as best they can. What more can we really ask from them?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Huang » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:09 pm

Sandy, I understand that you might be having a lot of fun going on your anti-bad-quizbowl crusade, but your choice of target has made it more of a witch hunt.
Maybe Robin Richards should stop lying?
Might I ask which year's packet's you've actually read?
I believe all the ones that Dunbar has attended. Also if someone could post the past Brookwood sets online, I would be extremely happy to be proven wrong.
Could you quit begging the question and provide some support, please?
Sure, I'll repeat myself again. The house-written questions are no where close to being acceptable because they teach a player about the same amount of academic material as straight up speedcheck questions.
but more recent ones are, in fact, not.
Again, I wish someone could post the past Brookwood sets online so we could put an end this "Yes, they are" "No, they're not" argument.
So, if you believe that Brookwood is making an honest effort, why would you adopt an agressive tone in dealing with them and commenting on their questions?
They're making an honest effort in terms of the quantity of questions they're writing. But they're not making an honest effort in actually improving those questions.
Where in this thread does anyone even imply this argument?
You've never heard this argument where someone defends a traditional, but awful, tournament?


Look, you can continue to defend this tournament all you want if that's your prerogative. Keep in mind though: "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is." - Churchill


Edit: I will continue to strongly disagree with Rountree's second point until past Brookwood sets are posted online. If I'm right, well let's just hope this isn't the case. If I'm wrong, it'll be a glorious day for quizbowl in the South and I'll apologize profusely for speaking out of ignorance based solely on a faulty memory.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:37 pm

Huang wrote:
Sandy, I understand that you might be having a lot of fun going on your anti-bad-quizbowl crusade, but your choice of target has made it more of a witch hunt.
Maybe Robin Richards should stop lying?
Sure, I disagree with Mr. Richards, and I think that last year's Brookwood set (the HSAPQ one) was great. But does that require me to trash all previous Brookwood sets? Absolutely not.
Could you quit begging the question and provide some support, please?
Sure, I'll repeat myself again. The house-written questions are no where close to being acceptable because they teach a player about the same amount of academic material as straight up speedcheck questions.
Um, could you provide support (i.e. post Brookwood questions that you think are comparable to speedchecks)?
Where in this thread does anyone even imply this argument?
You've never heard this argument where someone defends a traditional, but awful, tournament?
Sure, I've heard it, but that's far from what anyone's saying here.
Look, you can continue to defend this tournament all you want if that's your prerogative. Keep in mind though: "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is." - Churchill
If by "defend" you mean "try to show that this tournament at least uses pyramidality in the current era" then, yes, that is my prerogative. I'm not sure what that quote's supposed to mean, but it seems to cut against you because you are the one who is, in fact, ignorant about the nature of current Brookwood questions.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Huang » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:47 pm

But does that require me to trash all previous Brookwood sets? Absolutely not.
Actually it does
Um, could you provide support (i.e. post Brookwood questions that you think are comparable to speedchecks)?
Did you read the other points of my post? Post the Brookwood sets and we'll see. I despise those questions too much to bring them into my home.
try to show that this tournament at least uses pyramidality in the current era
I will keep repeating this until you actually post the Brookwood sets online: Stop pretending it's something it clearly isn't.
I'm not sure what that quote's supposed to mean, but it seems to cut against you because you are the one who is, in fact, ignorant about the nature of current Brookwood questions.
I guess Dunbar exists in an alternate universe where Brookwood questions are bad? Nope sorry, you're wrong.


Edit:
you can't refute my argument unless you post current Brookwood questions that you believe are objectionable.
Can't, as stated by Matt Weiner. Plus I rarely attend practice anymore and would have no reason to ask for the two enormous binders of BISB. I would rather jump in front of a car.
Why on earth are you asking someone to present proof to refute your accusations?
As stated above, I don't physically have the packets at my house. They're at Dunbar.
are these questions the equivalent of a Nazi memorabilia
Yep, pretty much.
Last edited by Huang on Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:42 pm

Huang wrote:
But does that require me to trash all previous Brookwood sets? Absolutely not.
Actually it does
Can you explain how believing that the HSAPQ set used at Brookwood last year was good logically requires me to believe that all other Brookwood sets are bad? Because it seems logical that they could both be good.
I'm not sure what that quote's supposed to mean, but it seems to cut against you because you are the one who is, in fact, ignorant about the nature of current Brookwood questions.
I guess Dunbar exists in an alternate universe where Brookwood questions are bad? Nope sorry, you're wrong.
I guess you live in an alternate universe where you haven't heard Brookwood questions for the past 2 years? Nope sorry, you're wrong. But seriously, you can't refute my argument unless you post current Brookwood questions that you believe are objectionable. You have to face the fact that you are arguing with insufficient information if you haven't heard Brookwood's JV set from last year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by grashid » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:11 pm

Huang wrote:
Um, could you provide support (i.e. post Brookwood questions that you think are comparable to speedchecks)?
Did you read the other points of my post? Post the Brookwood sets and we'll see. I despise those questions too much to bring them into my home.
try to show that this tournament at least uses pyramidality in the current era
I will keep repeating this until you actually post the Brookwood sets online: Stop pretending it's something it clearly isn't.
I'm not sure what that quote's supposed to mean, but it seems to cut against you because you are the one who is, in fact, ignorant about the nature of current Brookwood questions.
I guess Dunbar exists in an alternate universe where Brookwood questions are bad? Nope sorry, you're wrong.
Ok. You are accusing a tournament of having questions that you deem are bad (again, I can't stress enough the difference between fact and opinion), but you are too "(i'll fill in this word in a later paragraph)" to present the packets yourself?

It seems common sense to me that the burden of proof should rest with the accuser. Why on earth are you asking someone to present proof to refute your accusations?

Ok, about that word (and im referring to the " I despise those questions too much to bring them into my home.")

There are two things I get from that statement. Either,
A) You're caught in a web of lies, and in fact, you haven't been to the past few Brookwood tournaments and that's why you can't present the packets. I am hoping its that one because..
B) You are actually so caught up in this quizbowl-centric world that you refuse to bring packets into your home? I repeat, you are REPULSED by PACKETS of QUESTIONS and ANSWERS enough that you can't bear to let them enter your home. One wonders if these packets are infected with swine-flu. Or are these questions the equivalent of a Nazi memorabilia. I mean, if it is this option, the word I am looking for is, crazy, or obsessed, or out-of-touch-with-reality.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:13 pm

I'm going to cut this off using my moderator hat, since it's devolved into a back-and-forth. Please refrain from posting on the topic of past Brookwood questions unless you have something new to say. (BTW, I'm pretty sure that the claim Sandy made was that he saw Brookwood questions at his own team's practices; however, Brookwood has not released those questions to the Internet, so he can't post them here. Brookwood posting their old questions for free would go a long way towards making this discussion more than finger-pointing).
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:17 pm

Matt Weiner wrote: Brookwood posting their old questions for free would go a long way towards making this discussion more than finger-pointing).
Any questions I receive at berryg@mymail.vcu.edu can quickly be on quizbowlpackets.com for all to see

EDIT: that is to say, if someone is actually still charging people money for questions, those sets will only be posted with express consent of the sellers
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:31 pm

Mods: Could we move this entire exchange to the Theory section under the Distribution of the BISB topic? It would appear to fit in nicely there since a lot of people have a lot to say about this particular tournament.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:45 pm

On to more germane discussions: Will any more GA teams be able to go to Vandy now that the date has moved from next weekend to 11/7? Chattahoochee was approved for next weekend's date, but we are waiting to hear back from the county about the new time. Fingers crossed because we always enjoy the Vandy tournament. Nashville is a cool city, and rarely do we get a chance to play quizbowl for 2 days and play 10+ rounds at a tournament. Vandy provides both.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:27 pm

1. I cannot go to any tournament that weekekend, Nov 7. If Ms. Eidson can go to Nashville that weekend, Brookwood may have ONE team instead of the two we planned for this weekend. Of course, our school system probably will NOT approve the change since all our trips were approved in August. I am not sure I have time to meet their deadlines.

2. As for the debate over Brookwood tournament questions...wow! I posted a simple tournbament announcement and it leads to a list of posts criticizing our tournament. And now one player at Dunbat-KY dislikes BISB questions in a practice at Dunbar and off we go with yet more Brookwood criticisms.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by at your pleasure » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:58 pm

So, will your questions be posted at any point? At this point, Sandy is certainly getting overheated and the questions are probably fine, but we won't know until we see them.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:53 pm

1. I have no intention of posting 22 years' worth of questions. I give copies of the preliminary rounds to each school that participates and have never given out our playoff rounds (past the first playoff match). But, I have emailed matches to people all over the country when they request them. If anyone wants some matches from this decade, email me and I'll email you some matches back. rick_barry@gwinnett.k12.ga.us

2. The BISB questions have changed over the years, as quiz bowl has changed. I cannot imagine using our older sets for practice today for any event or any level of player.

3. I really do not want to put our past questions on this board for microanalysis. I would hope those who have sets of our questions would NOT post any of them here or anywhere else. Each year's BISB sets "passed" being microanalyzed by scores of Brookwood editors of that year, students and adults, and that is enough for me.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:56 pm

Why not post at least one set? 2007 alone would be enough to assuage concerns.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by rjaguar3 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:12 pm

RountreeCHS wrote:On to more germane discussions: Will any more GA teams be able to go to Vandy now that the date has moved from next weekend to 11/7? Chattahoochee was approved for next weekend's date, but we are waiting to hear back from the county about the new time. Fingers crossed because we always enjoy the Vandy tournament. Nashville is a cool city, and rarely do we get a chance to play quizbowl for 2 days and play 10+ rounds at a tournament. Vandy provides both.
We do not plan on having Friday rounds. However, we are creating 10 packets for an exciting all-day Saturday tournament.

EDIT (and obligatory plug): But yeah, you should go. It's a great tournament.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:20 pm

For what it's worth, I would recommend some GA teams to consider attending the tournament at Clemson (or Klimpson if you prefer :smile:) on 11/14. I am confident it will have some strong teams and questions.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:53 pm

So UGA on Saturday looks to be the first tournament in which Walton, Brookwood, Chattahoochee, and Alpharetta will compete (It's unfortunate that, after their performance at Walton, Centennial won't be there). Any predictions?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:49 pm

Brookwood will have TWO teams at partial strength. We'll be competitive though. Saturday is our Homecoming.

It will be interesting.

Do you guys have your JV tournament questions yet? :-)
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:42 am

Chattahoochee will also be at UGA with 1 team sans 2 of our top players - an ACT test I believe.

We will also have 1 team at the Cedar Shoals JV tournament that is happening down the street on the same day.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:33 pm

This board is filled with snide and condescending commentary from time to time. An occasional barb has even been directed against me. My post was pretty tame by this board's standards.

I am pleased for Alpharetta that they will have their questions on time. It should help them in facilitatiing their first tournament. There will be several experienced tournament givers present at AHS on Halloween to pitch-in and help if needed. That's how we work here in Georgia.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:08 pm

Yes, it is always a good thing to get your questions several days in advance, particularly at a first tournament. I hope Central Gwinnett has the same fortune with the HFT in December. I am looking forward to both tournaments even though I will be in Michigan for Central's.

Mr. Barry, does Brookwood plan on sending (a) team(s) to Central? Hopefully, Ms. Hirsch will get a good response from many local teams.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:50 pm

RountreeCHS wrote:Yes, it is always a good thing to get your questions several days in advance, particularly at a first tournament. I hope Central Gwinnett has the same fortune with the HFT in December. I am looking forward to both tournaments even though I will be in Michigan for Central's.

Mr. Barry, does Brookwood plan on sending (a) team(s) to Central? Hopefully, Ms. Hirsch will get a good response from many local teams.
Since HFT will be finished by the first mirror taking place, which is on 11/7, I would be hard-pressed to withhold the questions from Central Gwinnett for too long!

And I agree--we were really happy to see Brookwood at the main site of HFT this past year (as well as Chatt at the Rabun Gap mirror), and I'd really like to see both of you guys at the GA mirror this year. The questions will be exponentially better in terms of difficulty control, I can promise you.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:33 am

Yeah, a whole month might be a bit ridiculous Andy :smile:.

Boston is a cool town and we would like to get up there sometime in the future. I was happy we got to hear the HFT set last year at Rabun Gap, and I am glad another mirror is happening even closer this year. We will likely send our B (and maybe C) team to Central.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by centralhs » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:41 pm

Both Brookwood and Chattahoochee indicated to me that, while their "A" teams were going to the Michigan tournament on December 5, their "B" and possibly "C" teams would most likely be coming to our tournament. I haven't gotten 100% confirmations from either Brookwood or Chattahoochee on that, but I am hoping that is the case.

I'm still hoping to get lots of other schools involved beyond the 10 or so that I have heard from so far, so any encouragement that people can give to other teams in their area/county would be much appreciated.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:29 pm

Norcross High School has made arrangements to host a mirror of the Prison Bowl on February 13th, 2010. I invite all teams interested to contact me as we would be happy with as large a turnout as possible.

As far as the Harvard mirror on December 5th, the fact that it is an SAT day keeps me from going and that was a contributor to our team being unable to go.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:31 pm

Do you guys think that the Central Gwinnett mirror would attract more teams if it were on a different date? If so, what date would be best? (Of course, this doesn't matter if the fifth is the only viable date for CG.)
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by centralhs » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:10 pm

I'm not sure if the date of the tournament is causing problems -- possibly the SAT might be an issue for some teams, but there shouldn't be much conflict with other tournaments. Other than the Brookwood and Chattahoochee "A" teams (both of whom are going to a tournament in Michigan), I'm not aware of any Georgia team that is going to a tournament that weekend nor any other tournament being held in Georgia that weekend. There IS a tournament that same weekend at the University of South Carolina, but I don't think that many (if any) Georgia teams are planning to attend.

I picked December 5 out of the possible dates (November 7 or 14 are the only other possible dates since Brookwood is on November 21 and November 28 falls during Thanksgiving vacation) in order to give me time to get the tournament organized to the level that I feel a tournament should be. Moving the tournament to November 7 or 14 at this late date wouldn't give me much time to pull together the kind of tournament that I want to run.

The tournament is still more than 6 weeks away, so I still have hope that many more teams will sign up. If you are a Georgia coach (or player) and you think that your team would like to attend the Harvard Fall Tournament Mirror on December 5, please e-mail me at cathyhirsch@earthlink.net.

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