Georgia 2009-2010

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:17 pm

jburnsOHS wrote:When criticizing the choice of GATA tournament sites, one must also remember that GATA does not have the power to take over a school at will. We must be invited to a school. Every year in March or April (formally ---and informally throughout the year), we ask coaches to let us know if they are interested in hosting a GATA event at their school the following year. If I remember correctly, there were only one or two interested parties besides Bradwell, and NONE of those was a school whose coaches or players have complained about the location since.
I'm not sure that my school got that email. Even if we did, though, you can't logically say that the fact that I didn't offer my school to host GATA State means that I can't complain about the location that was chosen. If I had known then what I know now about the problems that the location would cause, I probably would have offered. Besides, GATA isn't (or at least shouldn't be) bound to choose from the offers it gets; if it wants States to be in a specific location, I'm sure it could find a school there willing to host, even if that school didn't respond to the general call.
CSQuizJags wrote:From Cathy Hirsch at GATA concerning the State tournament:

**Both AAAA and AAAAA state tournaments will be ONE DAY events this year.
Expect a long day of competition!

Hopefully this will make the trip a little cheaper.
Not to continue to rain on this parade, but this honestly makes it worse. If there were ever a GATA tournament where it made sense to hold it Friday/Saturday, this was the one, as a majority of the teams are coming from far away. This will not make it cheaper, as it is not plausible to make the almost 5 hour drive on Saturday morning, meaning we still have to stay Friday night. Even worse, we'll be getting back at a very late hour of the night.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:09 pm

5A will be playing a round robin to determine the top 4 finishers at State. Should be interesting. Every 5A coach received an email on Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning with the details in it. You can even tell your match schedule and who you play in each match from the information Ms Hirsch sent out.

William: Of course you and I and everyone has a right to voice displeasure with anything GATA does. If you had heard in the past the constant requests to make State a one-day event, you would understand why it was easy to revert to that set-up this year when the numbers actually dictate that we go to a one day event.

The bottom line for us Metro Atlanta people is this: we have to "suck it up" once in a blue moon and travel south for State. Fear not: I am sure State will be back in North or Central GA for 2011.

Note: since announcing State for 5A as a one day event, more than one 5A coach has emailed me thanking me for making their trip easier. I presume they find it easier to get to Hinesville if they can leave after school is OUT on Friday instead of missing classes on Friday. I still prefer a 2-day event, but it isn't about what I want.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:32 pm

I can see both sides of the argument regarding a one-day vs. two-day event, but I lean strongly to the one-day side this year. Certainly getting home later in the evening on Saturday is a consequence of the location (for metro-ATL teams at least), but it is more a function of making it a full round robin. If I recall correctly, this format is what many of the players I spoke with during the course of the season said they preferred over the 5/6 prelims then 8-team single elimination format of years past.

Could GATA still have had the full round robin split between Friday night and Saturday? Sure, but I also think that becomes (almost) impossible if teams tried to leave after school on Friday. At Chattahoochee, we get out of school at 3:35pm. Even if we tried to leave 5 minutes early, we are not getting to Hinesville before 8:30pm. That means we wouldn't start playing until after 8:30 (most likely not before 9), and that makes for a late night and a very tired group of kids. I know my team wouldn't want to start playing rounds at 8:30-9pm at night after a full day of school and a 5-hour car ride. With it being a Saturday-only event, we will be able to leave school and not have to feel like we are rushing down there to play rounds when we are already tired. Instead, we can check into the hotel and relax. This is, I feel, a superior option for most, if not all, teams.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:47 pm

I'm glad to see we'll be playing a round robin; that's the best format, given the number of teams. How exactly will tiebreaking work, especially in determining 4 spots? Possible scenarios could be two teams tied in record, three teams tied in record, two teams with one loss and two teams with two losses, etc. I'd also like to see advantaged finals, i.e. if a team finishes 9-0 and another 8-1, they'll play up to two games, where the 9-0 team only has to win 1 but the 8-1 team has to win both. I think that makes sense especially due to the closeness of the top teams this year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:24 pm

William,

Mr. Barry and Mr. Burns can correct me on any of these points, but I believe GATA rules state that win/loss record, head-to-head, then points are used to rank teams. Ties in record are also broken by head-to-head result then points. Obviously, this becomes problematic with the dreaded 3-way tie when 3 teams finish with the same record each having beaten the other. I believe there will be an extra packet used to break that kind of tie between the 2 teams (out of the 3) that averaged the highest number of points over the entire round robin. There are no advantaged finals if you clear the field by 1 or more games. In your scenario the 9-0 team would be State Champions by virtue of having beaten all the other contenders.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 pm

I just think that using paper tiebreakers to decide the state championship would be a bit disappointing, to say the least. Also, the legitimacy of head-to-head is dubious at best (see this thread for data). We'll be playing at most 9 rounds, so why can't we spare 1 or 2 more to break ties the right way, which is to play them off? And both the PACE NSC and the NAQT HSNCT use some variation of advantaged finals to decide the champion. Surely both national tournaments must know something about fair tournament formats. An advantaged final essentially guarantees that the top two teams will play a best-of-three series to decide the champion, where one of those games is the round-robin match and up to two (if necessary) of those games are played after the round robin.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by vcuEvan » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:52 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:I just think that using paper tiebreakers to decide the state championship would be a bit disappointing, to say the least. Also, the legitimacy of head-to-head is dubious at best (see this thread for data). We'll be playing at most 9 rounds, so why can't we spare 1 or 2 more to break ties the right way, which is to play them off? And both the PACE NSC and the NAQT HSNCT use some variation of advantaged finals to decide the champion. Surely both national tournaments must know something about fair tournament formats. An advantaged final essentially guarantees that the top two teams will play a best-of-three series to decide the champion, where one of those games is the round-robin match and up to two (if necessary) of those games are played after the round robin.
You see, GATA has used these tie breaking procedures for tens of years. We use them because we use them. Besides, I'm not sure why people from Northern Georgia are butting into the affairs of a tournament held in Southern Georgia.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by grashid » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:35 pm

vcuEvan wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:I just think that using paper tiebreakers to decide the state championship would be a bit disappointing, to say the least. Also, the legitimacy of head-to-head is dubious at best (see this thread for data). We'll be playing at most 9 rounds, so why can't we spare 1 or 2 more to break ties the right way, which is to play them off? And both the PACE NSC and the NAQT HSNCT use some variation of advantaged finals to decide the champion. Surely both national tournaments must know something about fair tournament formats. An advantaged final essentially guarantees that the top two teams will play a best-of-three series to decide the champion, where one of those games is the round-robin match and up to two (if necessary) of those games are played after the round robin.
You see, GATA has used these tie breaking procedures for tens of years. We use them because we use them. Besides, I'm not sure why people from Northern Georgia are butting into the affairs of a tournament held in Southern Georgia.
It's an outrage. I condemn this War of Northern (Passive) Aggression.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:11 pm

vcuEvan wrote:You see, GATA has used these tie breaking procedures for tens of years. We use them because we use them. Besides, I'm not sure why people from Northern Georgia are butting into the affairs of a tournament held in Southern Georgia.
It's a state tournament, not a regional one. The rules affect everyone, not just the southern ones.
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Post by jrbarry » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:11 pm

acolyte strike!
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Xerxes » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:37 pm

Results (as told to me):
1) Centennial
2) Brookwood
3) Walton
4) Alpharetta (Actually Chattahoochee)

EDIT: I was misinformed. Seems like Chattahoochee and Alpharetta had the same record, but that Chattahoochee won head-to-head, so winning the fourth place berth.
Last edited by Xerxes on Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:42 pm

Xerxes wrote:Results (as told to me):
1) Centennial
2) Brookwood
3) Walton
4) Alpharetta
And people questioned my mid-season vote for Centennial but leaving Alpharetta off the list, hm?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Duncan Idaho » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:32 pm

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:
Xerxes wrote:Results (as told to me):
1) Centennial
2) Brookwood
3) Walton
4) Alpharetta
And people questioned my mid-season vote for Centennial but leaving Alpharetta off the list, hm?
I have been told that this set was some sort of eccentric alteration of NAQT, which might mean the results are not the same which would be yielded on a more academic set. Alpharetta seems to do better on sets like HSAPQ sets, Prison Bowl and so on, the kind of sets that will be used at PACE. Where they should be ranked would most likely depend on what kind of questions one believes to be the most legitimate.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

5A Results

1. Centennial (9-0)

2. Brookwood (7-2)

3. Walton (7-2)

4. Chattahoochee (6-3)

Alpharetta tied with Chattahoochee at 6-3 but Chattahoochee beat Alpharetta pretty soundly or so I hear.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:23 pm

Ben:

The set played at State today was altered to be MORE ACADEMIC and not less academic.

Alpharetta has a very good team, no doubt about that.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by grashid » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:06 pm

Congrats to Centennial for going undefeated in one of the toughest fields I've seen at state. I'm sure that the "unexpected" results speaks more towards the quality of the GA teams, especially since there was no clear favorite this year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by CSQuizJags » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:21 pm

Two things:

1- AAAA results

1- Lakeside
2- Marist
3- Starr's Mill
4- Davidson Fine Arts

2- I have just put up the stats/scores/whatever you wish to call them on a ScoBo page for GATA

http://results.scobo.net/GeorgiaAcadTeamAssoc

One is full 5A results and 4A prelim matches
One is 4A Playoff matches
One is full 5A results and combined 4A results (prelim+playoffs)
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Duncan Idaho » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:27 pm

jrbarry wrote:Ben:

The set played at State today was altered to be MORE ACADEMIC and not less academic.

Alpharetta has a very good team, no doubt about that.
I was not quite aware of which changes had been made, so I apologize if I spoke too soon. However, is it true that this set had 2/2 computational math per packet?
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by gwaustin4 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:20 pm

grashid wrote:Congrats to Centennial for going undefeated in one of the toughest fields I've seen at state. I'm sure that the "unexpected" results speaks more towards the quality of the GA teams, especially since there was no clear favorite this year.
It also speaks to the variable nature of two part bonuses and 18 tossup rounds, as well some unpredictability associated with having 2 pure computational math tossups each round. Having a round robin was a step in the right direction, but I feel there's still much that can be done to improve the quality of this event, especially in the area of clearly distinguishing between top-tier teams.

Congratulations to all the teams who did well, especially Centennial, who clearly set herself apart from the other teams in winning both the Varsity and JV state championships this year. :party:
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:35 pm

Ben:

Yes, we had 2 math T's and B's in every match. MOST were computational.

Formula was roughly 25% lit (includes Myth), 25% science, 25% social studies, 12.5% fine arts, 12.5% math. That is the formula our state organization has agreed to. And our state organization is made up only of quiz bowl people.

I understand the disdain for computational math by many on this board. That disdain is not shared by the quiz bowl people who run GATA. The feeling is that a subject area that every players takes for 4 years in high school should NOT be ignored when asking state tournament questions. And what is asked is more important than the form of how it is asked. We've used pyramidal questions for tossups since 1988 but have no problem not holding math computationaol tossups to that standard since what is asked trumps how it is asked, in our view.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:52 pm

Okay, so, using your very words: you would be okay with the questions being 100% noncomputational because you more care about "what is asked" than how it is asked and you would in fact prefer those questions because they actually reflect what your students take for four years unless they spend four years doing the same three problems about socks.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:01 pm

Congratulations to Brookwood on winning High Q this year. Also to Centennial for their showing at High Q and as state champions.

Does anyone know the reason why there are byes in the High Q brackets? I know some of how the brackets are filled but this doesn't make much sense to me.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:10 pm

Andrew:

No one has ever explained to me why High Q has had a few byes in its brackets these last two years. I have asked the WSB people and received no answer.

I brought up the fact that Gwinnett County Schools did NOT even get a spot on the bracket for 2009-2010 despite beinng Georgia's largest school district and having the most active quiz bowl teams of any school district in the state. (Brookwood got a spot on the HIgh Q bracket by virute of earning the 2008-2009 runner up spot.) I was trying to get Central Gwinnett a spot since they were Gwinnett County runners-up this year and there were at least 2 vacant spots on HIgh Q's 32-team bracket.

I have suggested several times that WSB run a qualifying Saturday where any school in N GA could send a team and play maybe 3 abbreviated matches. They could then take the top 32 teams in terms of scores or recrod, etc and seed them onto a 32-team bracket. The show producrtes/directors always seem interested but never move to do that.

I always tell my players that High Q is TV and not quiz bowl. They just do not "get it" on some issues.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Matt Weiner » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:48 pm

jrbarry wrote:The feeling is that a subject area that every players takes for 4 years in high school should NOT be ignored when asking state tournament questions.
It's commendable that Georgia teams can compete in quizbowl at all, if your high schools are really teaching basic multiplication to 12th-graders. Bravo to what you have achieved in light of that.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by kayli » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:07 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
jrbarry wrote:The feeling is that a subject area that every players takes for 4 years in high school should NOT be ignored when asking state tournament questions.
It's commendable that Georgia teams can compete in quizbowl at all, if your high schools are really teaching basic multiplication to 12th-graders. Bravo to what you have achieved in light of that.
I've noticed that everything you say is funnier and less offensive in a British accent.

Anyways, math can be easily asked in a quizbowl format by using math theory. If people are peeved that they're not getting enough computation, then there's ARML at UGa two months from now!
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Huang » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:42 am

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
jrbarry wrote:The feeling is that a subject area that every players takes for 4 years in high school should NOT be ignored when asking state tournament questions.
It's commendable that Georgia teams can compete in quizbowl at all, if your high schools are really teaching basic multiplication to 12th-graders. Bravo to what you have achieved in light of that.
I've noticed that everything you say is funnier and less offensive in a British accent.

Anyways, math can be easily asked in a quizbowl format by using math theory. If people are peeved that they're not getting enough computation, then there's ARML at UGa two months from now!
Nah, they wouldn't be able to handle the real math that involves writing long proofs (if I remember correctly, this is a huge part of the team's overall score?). Repeatedly computing the number of permutations of GATA tends to produce poor mathematicians.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by wareagle » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:26 am

[quote="jrbarry"]

No one has ever explained to me why High Q has had a few byes in its brackets these last two years. I have asked the WSB people and received no answer.

Mr. Barry,

When we competed in High Q last year, I was told that the reason there would be byes had to do with starting the season late. Evidently, they began things a few weeks later than usual last year and had to drop two of the matches to stay on schedule. Of course, this has nothing to do with this year's byes...

Congrats on your finish at State and High Q!
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by centralhs » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:14 pm

There are many things about High Q that don't make sense to me. The questions themselves often seem to have been selected at random and are sometimes quite strange and trivial. The field of teams that makes it on to the show each year is also quite random. Every private school in the northern half of the state seems to make it on every single year (no matter how weak or strong) while some of the public schools in the state with good, active quiz bowl teams (such as my school, runner up in Gwinnett County the past two years) can't seem to buy their way on.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:47 pm

Centennial was the cream of the crop this year, both at 5A State Varsity and 5A State JV - they went undefeated at both tournaments! Bravo to them. Clearing that field on Saturday by 2 games was impressive to say the least. They had some close games against the 4 other top teams, but they found ways to win all of them; they were truly Champions on Saturday.

Due to the depth of the field, I would argue the difference between 2nd and 5th place was not that substantial - certainly it seemed smaller than the difference between 1st and 2nd place this year. Some basic analysis yields the following results: Alpharetta lost badly (defined hereafter as 100+ points, or by more than 3/3) to Chattahoochee and Walton but beat Brookwood badly; Brookwood lost badly to Alpharetta but beat Chattahoochee badly; Chattahoochee beat Alpharetta badly but lost to Brookwood and Walton badly; Walton beat Chattahoochee and Alpharetta badly (but lost to Brookwood by 90).

Or, to use stats to show this comparison, one can look at the number of points a top 5 team scored against the 4 other top teams on Saturday. So, the sample size shrinks from 9 teams down to 5: Alpharetta, Brookwood, Centennial, Chattahoochee, and Walton.

Alpharetta (1-3 record against the 4 other top teams): averaged 215 PPG; 4 other top teams averaged 255 PPG against them = -40 pt. difference
Brookwood (2-2 record against the 4 other top teams): averaged 230 PPG; 4 other top teams averaged 228 PPG against them = +2 pt. difference
Centennial (4-0 record against the 4 other top teams): averaged 253 PPG; 4 other top teams averaged 213 PPG against them = +40 pt. difference
Chattahoochee (1-3 record against the 4 other top teams): averaged 215 PPG; 4 other top teams averaged 258 PPG against them = -43 pt. difference
Walton (2-2 record against the 4 other top teams): averaged 238 points per game; 4 other top teams averaged 208 PPG against them = +30 pt. difference

Further details among top 5 teams:
Alpharetta - largest margin of victory = 180 points (over Brookwood); largest margin of defeat = 140 points (to Walton)
Brookwood - largest margin of victory = 120 points (over Chattahoochee); largest margin of defeat = 180 points (to Alpharetta)
Centennial - largest margin of victory = 60 points (over Chattahoochee); largest margin of defeat = does not exist
Chattahoochee - largest margin of victory = 110 points (over Alpharetta); largest margin of defeat = 120 points (to Brookwood)
Walton - largest margin of victory = 140 points (over Alpharetta); largest margin of defeat = 90 points (to Brookwood)

Looking at all these numbers, the overall picture from Saturday seems to show a similar variation between the 5th place and 2nd place teams and the 2nd place and 1st place teams (both in terms of PPG and margin of victory). (Of course there is also the "variation" of 2 more victories as well.) Again, the statistical difference between Centennial and the "rest of the pack" appears similar to the difference the "rest of the pack" was to one another.

In regard to the math comp questions, the majority were calculus-based and, thus, more advanced than algebra or basic multiplication. I do agree that 2/2 out of 18/18 was too many. I would like to see GATA move to having 10% or less of its questions be math comp. I wouldn't be opposed to a math theory question.

While I prefer 3-part bonuses to 2-part ones, at least I can say that many of the bonuses were NOT automatic 20s like they seemed to be so many times at last year's Varsity State Championship. I don't recall seeing any rounds maxed out on points (540 possible). Looking at the stats, the most points scored in one round was 500 points between Brookwood and Chattahoochee.

EDIT: grammar
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:37 pm

Ben Cole wrote:
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:
Xerxes wrote:Results (as told to me):
1) Centennial
2) Brookwood
3) Walton
4) Chattahoochee
And people questioned my mid-season vote for Centennial but leaving Alpharetta off the list, hm?
I have been told that this set was some sort of eccentric alteration of NAQT, which might mean the results are not the same which would be yielded on a more academic set. Alpharetta seems to do better on sets like HSAPQ sets, Prison Bowl and so on, the kind of sets that will be used at PACE. Where they should be ranked would most likely depend on what kind of questions one believes to be the most legitimate.
Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. Regardless of what one thinks of the quality of NAQT or GATA questions versus HSAPQ/Prison Bowl type questions, I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that they're different. My team tends to do better on the latter kind, due both to distribution and question style.
gwaustin4 wrote:
grashid wrote:Congrats to Centennial for going undefeated in one of the toughest fields I've seen at state. I'm sure that the "unexpected" results speaks more towards the quality of the GA teams, especially since there was no clear favorite this year.
It also speaks to the variable nature of two part bonuses and 18 tossup rounds, as well some unpredictability associated with having 2 pure computational math tossups each round. Having a round robin was a step in the right direction, but I feel there's still much that can be done to improve the quality of this event, especially in the area of clearly distinguishing between top-tier teams.
These factors all contributed to a certain "variable nature" at states, to be sure. One needs only to look at the almost nonsensical pattern in which teams 2-5 beat or lost to each other to see that something was up. There certainly needs to be, next year, the use of three-part bonuses, a standard (more on this later) per-round distribution, and a reduction in (or elimination of) computational math.
jrbarry wrote:I understand the disdain for computational math by many on this board. That disdain is not shared by the quiz bowl people who run GATA.
The disdain may not be shared by those who run GATA, but I'm pretty sure most of the people who competed on Saturday, including the champions Centennial, were upset with the comp math. Maybe GATA could do more research into how the players feel about the issue.
Rountree wrote:While I prefer 3-part bonuses to 2-part ones, at least I can say that many of the bonuses were NOT automatic 20s like they seemed to be so many times at last year's Varsity State Championship.
I actually thought they produced a worse effect than what automatic 20s would have. This year, the bonuses were exactly like what you would expect if someone indiscriminantly chopped off the last part of an intended three-part bonus: most were automatic 20s (as the most common bonuses are medium-easy-hard or easy-medium-hard), but sometimes a team got screwed when the hard part snuck in. This contributed to the variability of matches, which essentially still turned into tossup shootouts (with an unfortunate twist).

So here are some suggestions I have for GATA for next year's state tournament:

1. Ties (at least for the top 4 spots) should be played off at the state championship.
There is no reason that paper tiebreakers of any kind should be used to determine spots 2-4 at a state championship, especially when the tournament ends at 3 in the afternoon. This is especially relevant, as in two situations, the team with higher PPG fell behind the other team because of head-to-head.

2. A fair distribution should be enumerated before the tournament and followed in the packets.
I don't mean 25% "Language Arts" and the like. I mean, spelled out, like all major question writers (both NAQT and HSAPQ, ACF, most housewrites) do. It should include the following categories (enumerated by number of questions per packet [or tournament], not by percentages):
Literature
Science
History
Fine Arts (with specific numbers of Visual Arts versus Music)
Religion, Mythology, Philosophy (specific numbers for each)
Social Science
Geography
Math comp [if GATA decides to retain this category]

This should ensure less packet-to-packet variation. Also, there should not be uneven numbers of tossups from the Big 3. Having 5 science and 3 mathcomp tossups in an 18-question round was less than equitable this year.

3. The number of math computation questions should be decreased or eliminated.
Honestly, I don't think there are any major writers out there that still support computational tossups. In modern quizbowl, it is not a debate anymore: computation tossups are incompatible with the game. Even NAQT eliminated computational tossups from its championship event, showing that they don't think them appropriate for upper-level play, which GATA State is (or should be). GATA can choose to keep computational bonuses (though I hope they improve them from this year), and replace the computational tossups with math theory, a subject that has seen some quality questions written in it this year.

4. The use of three-part bonuses.

Finally, congratulations to Centennial. They truly deserve the title of GATA 5A State Champions this year.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:57 pm

William:

The State set we used on Saturday had exactly two math tossups/bonuses in each round and not three. And, we had exactly one art and one music set per match, so those numbers were exact. The only divergence came in the two T's/B's past 16 as those categories rotated between lit/ss/sci/art/music.

I think Mr Rountree is going to make a strong argument to the GATA Board (He's a member) for using 3-part bonuses next year if we continue to use NAQT. I do not know how that will work out but I am pretty sure I'd vote FOR that as long as we do not reduce the number of tossups to get to 3-part bonuses.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:42 pm

William,

Because I value your opinion, because I am genuinely curious, and because I will, as Mr. Barry noted, be bringing up motions for some possible changes at the next GATA board meeting in May, I would like your responses to my following queries regarding your earlier points:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:1. Ties (at least for the top 4 spots) should be played off at the state championship.
There is no reason that paper tiebreakers of any kind should be used to determine spots 2-4 at a state championship, especially when the tournament ends at 3 in the afternoon. This is especially relevant, as in two situations, the team with higher PPG fell behind the other team because of head-to-head.
1. If you were in charge of making the decision about how ties should/should not be broken at State, how would you break ties in the future if the number of packets dictated the impossibility of playoffs. (Note: I am not arguing that this was the case on Saturday; rather, I would like to know your thoughts about some hypothetical future event.) For example, let's say we have some competition in the future with 13 teams playing a full round robin and only 13 packets to use. What happens then to break ties?
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:2. A fair distribution should be enumerated before the tournament and followed in the packets.
I don't mean 25% "Language Arts" and the like. I mean, spelled out, like all major question writers (both NAQT and HSAPQ, ACF, most housewrites) do. It should include the following categories (enumerated by number of questions per packet [or tournament], not by percentages):
Literature
Science
History
Fine Arts (with specific numbers of Visual Arts versus Music)
Religion, Mythology, Philosophy (specific numbers for each)
Social Science
Geography
Math comp [if GATA decides to retain this category]


2. What would the ideal/fair distribution be for those categories if it were your job to put together the rounds next year for Varsity State? I am looking for actual TU/Bon numbers and not percentages. For the sake of argument, let's say we keep the rounds 18/18 next year.
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:3. The number of math computation questions should be decreased or eliminated.
Honestly, I don't think there are any major writers out there that still support computational tossups. In modern quizbowl, it is not a debate anymore: computation tossups are incompatible with the game. Even NAQT eliminated computational tossups from its championship event, showing that they don't think them appropriate for upper-level play, which GATA State is (or should be). GATA can choose to keep computational bonuses (though I hope they improve them from this year), and replace the computational tossups with math theory, a subject that has seen some quality questions written in it this year.
3. I am assuming you can take care of this in your response to #2.
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:4. The use of three-part bonuses.
4. You get no arguments from he on this one.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by dtaylor4 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:26 pm

RountreeCHS wrote:1. If you were in charge of making the decision about how ties should/should not be broken at State, how would you break ties in the future if the number of packets dictated the impossibility of playoffs. (Note: I am not arguing that this was the case on Saturday; rather, I would like to know your thoughts about some hypothetical future event.) For example, let's say we have some competition in the future with 13 teams playing a full round robin and only 13 packets to use. What happens then to break ties?
I'm not Will, but my answer is simple: change the format. 2x7, 8/6 cross-over, carrying over prelim games among teams who end up in the same playoff bracket. This uses 11 packets. You'd have to use paper tiebreakers, but you have enough for an ACF Final. Though, if you do go to three-part bonuses, this point may be moot: If you go with NAQT or HSAPQ, those sets have more than 13 packets, and you can play off ties.

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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:52 am

RountreeCHS wrote:William,

Because I value your opinion, because I am genuinely curious, and because I will, as Mr. Barry noted, be bringing up motions for some possible changes at the next GATA board meeting in May, I would like your responses to my following queries regarding your earlier points:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:1. Ties (at least for the top 4 spots) should be played off at the state championship.
There is no reason that paper tiebreakers of any kind should be used to determine spots 2-4 at a state championship, especially when the tournament ends at 3 in the afternoon. This is especially relevant, as in two situations, the team with higher PPG fell behind the other team because of head-to-head.
1. If you were in charge of making the decision about how ties should/should not be broken at State, how would you break ties in the future if the number of packets dictated the impossibility of playoffs. (Note: I am not arguing that this was the case on Saturday; rather, I would like to know your thoughts about some hypothetical future event.) For example, let's say we have some competition in the future with 13 teams playing a full round robin and only 13 packets to use. What happens then to break ties?
Similar to what Donald is saying, I don't think we should ever create a format that would leave us without packets to break ties. However, if, for some reason, we had to break ties with a paper tiebreaker, this is what I would do: if the teams have identical schedules (i.e. full round robin or a playoff bracket) I would use points per game; if they played different schedules I would use points per bonus.
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:2. A fair distribution should be enumerated before the tournament and followed in the packets.
I don't mean 25% "Language Arts" and the like. I mean, spelled out, like all major question writers (both NAQT and HSAPQ, ACF, most housewrites) do. It should include the following categories (enumerated by number of questions per packet [or tournament], not by percentages):
Literature
Science
History
Fine Arts (with specific numbers of Visual Arts versus Music)
Religion, Mythology, Philosophy (specific numbers for each)
Social Science
Geography
Math comp [if GATA decides to retain this category]


2. What would the ideal/fair distribution be for those categories if it were your job to put together the rounds next year for Varsity State? I am looking for actual TU/Bon numbers and not percentages. For the sake of argument, let's say we keep the rounds 18/18 next year.
If we keep the rounds 18/18 next year:
4/4 Lit
4/4 Science (at least 1 math)
4/4 History
3/2 Fine Arts (at least 2 questions each of Visual and Music)
2/2 RMP (at least one each of R, M, and P)
1/1 Social Science
0/1 Geography

I would suggest, however, that we move to 20/20 and use something like this (if GATA wants more math):
4/4 Lit
4/4 Science
4/4 History
3/3 Fine Arts (half (1/2 or 2/1) Visual and half Music)
2/2 RMP (at least one each of R, M, and P)
1/1 Social Science
1/1 Geography
1/1 Math (math theory tossup, the bonus could be computation)

Or this (if GATA would allow math to be reduced):
4/4 Lit
4/4 Science (at least one math)
4/4 History
3/3 Fine Arts (half (1/2 or 2/1) Visual and half Music)
3/3 RMP (at least one each of R, M, and P)
1/1 Social Science
1/1 Geography
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:54 am

Thanks William. I, too, would like to see 20/20 next year, if possible. I think you did a good job creating both of your options of 20/20 rounds. I am not sure which one I like better actually.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by CSQuizJags » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:29 am

Just took a cruise through the NAQT HSNCT field and as of April 14 we have seven GA teams in the mix, including Centennial (State 5A winner) and Lakeside (State 4A winner) and the usual suspects too. Congrats to the new teams for climbing aboard.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:08 pm

Yeah, I saw that too yesterday, and was happy to see that GA is sending just as many teams to nationals this year as we did last year (9 and counting: 7 to the HSNCT and 2 to the NSC). I was afraid that might not happen after speaking with some of the teams during the year; there were lots of concerns about travel arrangements and costs. (For comparison purposes, our NSC number is down by 1 team, but our NAQT number is up by 1 team.) I am glad to see some of those teams were able to register and pay for the trips. Further, I don't think Centennial or Lakeside have ever attended nationals before. And, Alpharetta is attending its first NSC, so that makes 3 new teams from GA at nationals.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:54 pm

RountreeCHS wrote:there were lots of concerns about travel arrangements
This is still somewhat questionable for us. William, how does Alpharetta plan to get up to the tournament? If we could coordinate the trip that would help us immensely, though I wouldn't be surprised if your travel details were already ironed out.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:36 am

Andrew's a Freshman wrote:This is still somewhat questionable for us.
I am sorry to hear that Andrew. Hopefully, the travel arrangements will work out for y'all.

Is the HSNCT out of the question this year for Norcross? I know y'all have gone the past 3 years to Chicago.

Again, hopefully, y'all can make it to one of the nationals. Best of luck!
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:06 am

We've always really enjoyed the HSNCT and it was our first choice. However, this year our graduation falls on the same Saturday.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:29 am

Andrew's a Freshman wrote:this year our graduation falls on the same Saturday
I completely understand. That same thing has happened to us in the past as well. Luckily, our graduation is the Saturday before the HSNCT this year, so it's not an issue. Of course, we have only 1 senior on the Team this year, so it wouldn't have been as major a problem as previous years anyway.
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GATA Tournament Reader Bank for 2010-2011

Post by jburnsOHS » Fri May 21, 2010 7:25 am

Attention Georgia players and former players: GATA would like to encourage you to volunteer as readers for the Fall, Middle, Junior Varsity, and Varsity Tournaments. If you are an experienced reader and would like to volunteer, please look at the tournament schedule at our website http://www.gataquizbowl.com ; http://www.georgiaquizbowl.com ; http://www.georgiaquizbowl.org (2010-2011 calendar posted in August). If you can volunteer for one of the 4 official GATA events, email that tournament director. (I've listed the dates below as well.) And if you would like your name and email to appear on a reader bank list on our website, please send your name, location, and email address to our webmaster @ sclose@mindspring.com . He will add you to a list, and tournament directors will have a resource for readers.

October 16 Fall Open V @ Chattahoochee and Bleckley County College age and older readers preferred
Feb 26 JV State Championship @ Ola High Experienced Varsity and older preferred
March 26 V State Championship @ Ola and Bleckley County College age and older preferred
April 16 Middle State Championship @ Trickum Middle Experienced Varsity and older preferred
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Andrew's a Freshman » Fri May 21, 2010 3:00 pm

Any word on Gwinnett County Tournament dates for 2010? I sincerely hope it's not September 18th.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by jrbarry » Fri May 21, 2010 11:25 pm

It IS Sept 18. I will tell you there has been some confusion about it though. MIght end up Sept 25. Stay tuned.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by cchiego » Tue May 25, 2010 4:09 pm

I was amused to see the discussion on the GATA Board of my treatment of Southern teams in my previews on the HSNCT blog. As perhaps the most pro-Southern collegiate quizbowler out there and likely the one with the most experience in GA, I took particular note of the claims that I didn't look at the South carefully enough. I can assure you I most certainly did, but like I said trying to judge the relative strength of Georgia teams was an exercise in near futility thanks to the lack of PPB or even team rosters at most tournaments.

Remember that being able to make national-level comparisons is important not only for making random predictions (which is a fairly unimportant aspect) but for "seeding" the tournament pools at nationals or even at events where GA teams don't typically travel to play at. More accurate information is crucial to ensuring that pools are balanced as best they can be. Here's what I did with the information that I had:

I first looked at what little information I had regarding the performance against common opponents, so PPG mattered to some extent against similar opponents (particularly within the same tournament since at least then the lineups were help constant). Centennial impressed me (they also had a fine run at CATT a few years ago I remember, so I was wondering when they'd finally start playing more tournaments) with their high PPG against even the top teams and their strong performance on the Prison Bowl set. I wish I had more PPB results so I could see how they fared nationally, but I was willing to take a bit of a risk on them on the strength of their wins over the most established teams.

I also valued bonus conversion when I could find it over head-to-head because the odds of playing a specific other team at nationals are rather low while PPB can be applied to pretty much all matches. I certainly took note of teams that overperformed their PPB (St. Joseph's from NJ comes to mind as does Dorman B), but at a nationals level I'd go with teams that more consistently averaged higher PPB (and I say this as someone whose team consistently finished far above what our PPB level would suggest at the ICT!). One major point in favor of Walton was its higher PPB than Alpharetta at Berry's tournament and higher PPG against similar opponents at GATA state than Chatt or B-wood, but I'm not sure of the quality of the Berry questions.

Finally, I also valued experience on hard questions and against tough opponents. Chattahoochee playing ACF Winter, DII SCT (at Clemson), and the UM Fall tournaments was particularly impressive to me, so I bumped them up over Brookwood (which had somewhat similar, albeit usually lower stats overall and a mostly split head-to-head record) for that since HSNCT questions are tougher on average. I also discounted tournaments held on IS-A sets more because there's more randomness to the results and they don't mirror the level of HSNCT questions. Brookwood would definitely be the "next team on the list" if I included more teams from GA, but I'm willing to wager a picture of myself in an LSU hat that Chatt and Walton will finish above them at the HSNCT this year.

By the way, having a separate board for GA teams seems like it could be useful in getting smaller/less active schools and players posting and talking online, but I hope there's still significant cross-pollination between debates there and debates on this board. Sticking to a limited point of view can be stultifying for a quizbowl team, especially those who hope to be highly competitive at the national level, so I'm hoping there's still a significant flow of ideas between both boards.

EDIT: Also, I sincerely hope those on the GA board will allow people and ideas from outside of Georgia to post freely, particularly when the discussion could benefit from new information. Censorship is definitely not the answer.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by millionwaves » Wed May 26, 2010 11:47 am

I split off the discussion of the GATA forums, since that discussion is probably separate from most of what goes on in this thread. You can view that topic here.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Rountree » Wed May 26, 2010 12:43 pm

Thank you Mr. Meade.

Back to the relevant discussion of GA teams at Nationals: I actually believe Chris is on target other with some of his picks. (I misinterpreted your statement about the Berry tournament, Chris, because you said GA tournaments use single elimination playoffs, which GATA did not use this year. Since you made no mention of Walton and Alpharetta's match at State in your blog, I assumed you did not know about it. Since you say you did, I wish you had made that clearer in your original post.) Anyway, thank you for taking the time to do the blog again.

The top 4 teams at GATA 5A (Centennial, Brookwood, Walton, and Chattahoochee, in that order) are all going to NAQT, and, contrary to what others here have posted, my personal opinion is that it is quite likely those 4 teams will finish in the exact same order at the HSNCT. I think Centennial has a better shot of finishing higher than Brookwood, Walton, and Chattahoochee. And, because of their senior leadership with Andy, Eric, and Jameel (sp?), I think Brookwood could finish higher than Walton or Chattahoochee, since both of those teams start at least 2 non-seniors on their A teams - if I recall correctly about Walton's lineup. (Chattahoochee will have 3 juniors on its A Team at the HSNCT for sure.)
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by centralhs » Fri May 28, 2010 6:05 am

It's going to be interesting to see how Brookwood, Walton, Centennial and Chattahoochee do this weekend as all 4 teams have the potential to do extremely well. Centennial appears to be the "favorite" but I wouldn't be overly surprised to see any of the other 3 teams end up placed ahead of them, either. Early in the year, I wasn't particularly impressed by Brookwood or Chattahoochee, as both teams seemed to have knowledge gaps that recent teams from those schools did not. However, by later in the season, both teams really seemed to have kicked it up a substantial notch and closed a lot of those gaps. Centennial won a lot (most, actually) of their games against the top Southeastern teams this year by close margins, usually just 20 or 30 points. I don't know how a team can have that many "on the edge" games, and win them all, but Centennial managed. That says a lot about not just their skill, but their ability to maintain composure and concentration in high-pressure situations. If they can continue this trend at Nationals, it will be a pretty impressive feat.

Good luck to all 4 of these teams, and Bainbridge too in their first trip to the HSNCT. I can't wait for tomorrow to come so I can start seeing the results!
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by cchiego » Sun May 30, 2010 8:28 pm

I gotta say I was impressed. I didn't have super-high expectations coming in, but the GA teams on the whole were very impressive and have a lot to build on for next year.

Centennial was fast- almost too fast for their own good sometimes, like when they got stranded in some negstorms and had to try to claw their way out of deficits. But with their best player only a sophomore (!!), they should certainly be able to build on this year's finish if they choose to improve (and get to more tournaments). Hope to see more of them at future HSNCTs.

Chattahoochee playing hard questions and tough competition really payed off in their results- I was impressed with their fighting spirit in the playoffs. I think they lose a lot of their scoring, but they've always got a pool of players to rebuild from somehow.

I'm pleased that I won't have to make good on my bet on Brookwood, but it seems like Bwood got a tough schedule this year in the prelims.

Bainbridge should also be proud of their 4-6 finish- that's great for them that they were able to get to nationals and even better that they were pretty competitive in their matches throughout the day. I hope that QB in south GA can make a comeback, particularly since there's a small but decent Florida panhandle circuit they can play on as well as the Atlanta area ones.

Overall, I hope GA teams continue to attend more out of state tournaments on harder competition and, perhaps most importantly, work to improve the quality of the in-house question sets in GA. I know a lot of them are held dear by the schools that hold them, but from what I remember a lot of the questions were either too speed-checkish or just poorly constructed and on topics that are kind of out of the mainstream. It's not even necessarily the difficulty- there are a good number of random too-hard questions in the sets from what I recall- but they don't seem to be good preparation for really anything, particularly since GATA state is held on NAQT questions. I'd be happy to help edit any question set used in GA and give what knowledge I do have about how to better improve the questions. Additionally, it might be neat for ACE, which seems to be heavily attended by HSqbers from GA, to add a writing component to its courses in order to help boost the quality of question writers and help the students see how good questions are crafted.
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Re: Georgia 2009-2010

Post by Connie Prater » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:05 pm

Swank diet wrote:]Chattahoochee playing hard questions and tough competition really payed off in their results- I was impressed with their fighting spirit in the playoffs. I think they lose a lot of their scoring, but they've always got a pool of players to rebuild from somehow.
They're actually only losing me, so hopefully that means very good things for next year.
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