New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:52 pm

Earthquake wrote:What about 8 brackets of 6, and the top teams plus four wild-card teams play in two parallel championship brackets of 6 (and consolation brackets of 6 for teams outside the top 12? It would take the same amount of rounds (though it could possibly make tiebreakers a bit of a mess), and all 48 teams would be in contention for the entire time.
To shorten the rambling story of how we got to this format, the 8 brackets of 6/2 playoff pools of 6/finals scenario was our first attempt. It fails because you're right, tiebreakers are a mess - there aren't enough rounds to properly break ties for sending teams to the finals.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Captain Sinico » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:07 pm

You, Jeff Price, wouldn't support the strong form of that argument, which would lead to our granting the tournament win to the team we think is best without even playing. As you well know, many programs are capable of fielding second and third teams that have real chances of beating their first teams and even better chances of beating first teams from other schools. Even were that not true, it still wouldn't be fair to exclude them from contention a priori. It might prove necessary to do that in order to exclude an even-less-fair result, but I don't see why that's so in this case.

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:25 pm

The format of this tournament came out of a discussion between me, Jonah, and Brad. We considered several possibilities, including power matching all 48 teams, 8 pools of 6, and the format we eventually agreed to. We had different opinions, and this is the consensus we reached. Each possibility has it strengths and weaknesses, and the point being made in the last few posts probably is the most obvious weakness of the system we chose.

We considered the teams that are coming and the successes of B Teams at various tournaments this year, and we decided that this was a flaw we could live with. The flaw of this method, while valid in theory, is extremely unlikely to come into play. If there was a B Team coming to our tournament that we thought would be harmed by this format, then we would do it differently, choosing a system that had different flaws.

The top two B Teams will compete with the second tier of A Teams in the afternoon (#7-16 out of 32) and have a chance to take home a 7th place trophy.

I'm not claiming that this method is perfect, I'm not claiming that it was my personal first choice, and I certainly am not claiming that this is the way all tournaments should be run. I will claim, however, that it presents the teams coming to our tournament with the opportunity to play that they want.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:44 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:You, Jeff Price, wouldn't support the strong form of that argument, which would lead to our granting the tournament win to the team we think is best without even playing. As you well know, many programs are capable of fielding second and third teams that have real chances of beating their first teams and even better chances of beating first teams from other schools. Even were that not true, it still wouldn't be fair to exclude them from contention a priori. It might prove necessary to do that in order to exclude an even-less-fair result, but I don't see why that's so in this case.

MaS
Heh, True. As Herm Edwards once said, "You play, to win, the game!" And you're right, I do know, first-hand, there are B teams capable of beating many schools' A teams. I purposely placed my B and C teams in the A field of the BIT last year b/c we WERE that strong at the MS level.
(I'm amused at the notion of awarding trophies by acclamation, though. Teams show up, vote, and go home. HEY! And they're home before lunch! Think of the money you'd save on pizza, Dave!!! :lol: )
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:27 pm

styxman wrote:
Earthquake wrote:What about 8 brackets of 6, and the top teams plus four wild-card teams play in two parallel championship brackets of 6 (and consolation brackets of 6 for teams outside the top 12? It would take the same amount of rounds (though it could possibly make tiebreakers a bit of a mess), and all 48 teams would be in contention for the entire time.
To shorten the rambling story of how we got to this format, the 8 brackets of 6/2 playoff pools of 6/finals scenario was our first attempt. It fails because you're right, tiebreakers are a mess - there aren't enough rounds to properly break ties for sending teams to the finals.
Well, assuming you have 12 packets (as you implied earlier), you're using 5 in the prelim RR and 5 in the playoff RR. That leaves 2 for finals and tiebreaking. You could have a single-packet cross-bracket final and use half-packets to break ties in the playoff RR, which was what was used at the TJIAT without any problem.
Last edited by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Dan-Don » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:39 pm

Earthquake wrote:
styxman wrote:
Earthquake wrote:What about 8 brackets of 6, and the top teams plus four wild-card teams play in two parallel championship brackets of 6 (and consolation brackets of 6 for teams outside the top 12? It would take the same amount of rounds (though it could possibly make tiebreakers a bit of a mess), and all 48 teams would be in contention for the entire time.
To shorten the rambling story of how we got to this format, the 8 brackets of 6/2 playoff pools of 6/finals scenario was our first attempt. It fails because you're right, tiebreakers are a mess - there aren't enough rounds to properly break ties for sending teams to the finals.
Well, assuming you have 12 packets (as you implied earlier), you're using 5 in the prelim RR and 5 in the playoff RR. That leaves 2 for finals and tiebreaking. You could have a single-packet cross-bracket final and use half-packets to break ties in the playoff RR, which wass what was used at the TJIAT without any problem.
'
I know people can be a little uppity about half-packets, but this schematic sounds fairest. And it's been used successfully. Just a thought.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:47 pm

Question on that format: Let's say team A goes 5-0 in the morning, 5-0 in their pool, and team B goes 5-0 in the morning, 4-1 in their pool (losing to team A). Does Team A just win the pool and go to the finals and eliminate team B after 1 loss?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:30 pm

We have just added Loyola C and are at 46 teams. We can accept two more registrations of B/C/D teams (though no new A teams). If those do not materialize, we will form chimera teams as necessary.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:24 pm

Woody Paige wrote:Think of the money you'd save on pizza, Dave!!! :lol:
$1,365.88. Maybe we will go with the Sorice System.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:15 pm

jonah wrote:We have just added Loyola C and are at 46 teams. We can accept two more registrations of B/C/D teams (though no new A teams). If those do not materialize, we will form chimera teams as necessary.
+Auburn D; 47 teams. One more B/C/D/E team will be accepted.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:44 pm

Lisle B just got the last spot.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by johnsona » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:08 pm

Any chance that one team will drop by 3 pm today? We might just catch a flight up to Chicago... :party:
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:58 pm

That would be awesome, but nobody has dropped yet.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by johnsona » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:10 pm

So, I guess you are full at 48 teams?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:12 pm

Yes, sorry. Were you serious?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:13 am

Yeah, wow. Talk about waiting until the last minute! Did someone find a cut-rate, last-minute deal to travel on American or United?

Anyway,
I hate wishing luck to scholastic bowl teams because if you're the better team and things are going your way, luck isn't part of the equation! So, instead I offer the following to tomorrow's teams;
"May your match questions be good, may your moderators be speedy, competent, and fair, may your experience, win or lose, be enjoyable, and may your journey be safe."
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by johnsona » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:42 am

Actually, yeah we could have gotten to Chicago for dirt cheap. And it was just a whim--my seniors love to travel. Not much good competition down here!!
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:44 am

Keep in mind that the questions will be mirrored, so do not comment on the questions on this board for at least a few weeks and possibly a few months (depending on whether there is one mirror or several). We do want feedback on the questions, so Jonah has set up a Facebook discussion--contact him or me via email or Facebook to be part of it. We would especially appreciate people keeping track of dud questions so that we can make repairs before the mirrors, and all feedback is welcome. Also, feel free to email us. Any comments that are not question-related are welcome in this thread.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Golran » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:12 am

If you want to travel out to LA, UCLA is mirroring this set on January 9th, and we just expanded the field.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:19 pm

The Facebook discussion group is here. Obviously, it is a closed group. If you were in some capacity involved with the main site, join; Reinstein or I will approve you if we recognize your name, or we might have to ask you to identify yourself.

If anyone is prospectively interested in mirroring this set, they should join the group with an explanatory note identifying themselves as such; presumably, the comments there will help them evaluate the set. Of course, I can also send you a copy of it if I can verify that you will not be playing at any other mirror.

Everything is good so far.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:52 pm

Auburn went 5-0 in the morning; they join St. Ignatius, Oak Park-River Forest, Carbondale A, Wheaton-Warrenville South A, and Northmont in the top playoff bracket. The top consolation brackets are Loyola A, Lisle A, Niles West, Latin, Auburn B, and Geneva; and Stevenson A, Detroit Catholic Central, Barrington A, Auburn C, Fremd, and Wheaton North.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Monk » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:08 pm

I'm cheering Carbondale A from Connecticut!
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:02 pm

Auburn A won in the second game of a final against St. Ignatius in which they had been disadvantaged. Third place was OPRF, fourth Carbondale A, fifth Northmont, sixth Wheaton-Warrenville South A. Consolation champion was Loyola A over Stevenson A. More to come after I've finished playing VIOLATEDD and gotten some sleep.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:23 pm

This was a great tournament, I have a couple of question suggestions I'll make in a private forum. I feel as though the morning rounds did a decent job of shaking out the field into appropriate groups for the afternoon, though I was dumbfounded at how Stevenson and Detroit Central Catholic could wind up in our consolation group, unless I'm misunderstanding the groupings. Were the two consolation brackets (Pam and Jim) divided by strength (teams 7-12 in Pam, 13-18 in Jim)? Or were they the next 12, split into evenly matched groups? If it's the latter, it makes a lot more sense to me than it did when Stevenson and DCC were kicking in the teeth of Barrington A.
On playing 10 rounds... I think it's fine as long as you're winning. :wink: We took a tough loss to Auburn C to open things up, followed by a mauling at the hands of DCC. From there, Barrington A played comatose games against Fremd and Stevenson, averaging about 6 PPB and 3 TU in each game. Our final opponent, Wheaton North, was having a similarly tough afternoon, and Barrington A caught their 2nd wind in time to finish the day with a win. So, we finished the day with a 4-6 record.
The Fremd coach pointedly said this is the last time he's attending the NTV, as he apparently was not a fan of the power matching to determine afternoon pools. He didn't say as much, but I'd count him among the fans of single-elimination for afternoon playoffs. The Wheaton North coach felt similarly. I think the point was that it's tough to play a series of "tournament" matches when you know there's nothing more at stake, other than pride, a stark contrast to the morning rounds. For our part, there was a precipitous fall-off in Barrington A's play once they had lost twice in the afternoon and knew they still had matches to go. Barrington B, OTOH, defeated a pair of A teams to open the afternoon and reported feeling energized by those wins (and the Lou Malnati's), riding those good feelings to a sweep of the Tracy Bracket with wins over Boylan Catholic B, Wheaton Warrenville South B, and Lisle B. They were pretty proud of themselves for how they closed the day.
I'll have more comments later...
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:23 am

Woody Paige wrote:This was a great tournament, I have a couple of question suggestions I'll make in a private forum. I feel as though the morning rounds did a decent job of shaking out the field into appropriate groups for the afternoon, though I was dumbfounded at how Stevenson and Detroit Central Catholic could wind up in our consolation group, unless I'm misunderstanding the groupings. Were the two consolation brackets (Pam and Jim) divided by strength (teams 7-12 in Pam, 13-18 in Jim)? Or were they the next 12, split into evenly matched groups? If it's the latter, it makes a lot more sense to me than it did when Stevenson and DCC were kicking in the teeth of Barrington A.
On playing 10 rounds... I think it's fine as long as you're winning. :wink: We took a tough loss to Auburn C to open things up, followed by a mauling at the hands of DCC. From there, Barrington A played comatose games against Fremd and Stevenson, averaging about 6 PPB and 3 TU in each game. Our final opponent, Wheaton North, was having a similarly tough afternoon, and Barrington A caught their 2nd wind in time to finish the day with a win. So, we finished the day with a 4-6 record.
The Fremd coach pointedly said this is the last time he's attending the NTV, as he apparently was not a fan of the power matching to determine afternoon pools. He didn't say as much, but I'd count him among the fans of single-elimination for afternoon playoffs. The Wheaton North coach felt similarly. I think the point was that it's tough to play a series of "tournament" matches when you know there's nothing more at stake, other than pride, a stark contrast to the morning rounds. For our part, there was a precipitous fall-off in Barrington A's play once they had lost twice in the afternoon and knew they still had matches to go. Barrington B, OTOH, defeated a pair of A teams to open the afternoon and reported feeling energized by those wins (and the Lou Malnati's), riding those good feelings to a sweep of the Tracy Bracket with wins over Boylan Catholic B, Wheaton Warrenville South B, and Lisle B. They were pretty proud of themselves for how they closed the day.
I'll have more comments later...
So, like, are you basically saying that your kids don't like playing quizbowl all that much? Why wouldn't they enjoy games against teams that will lead to competitive matches? Yeah you're bound to get blown out by a couple schools who might/should have made the "real playoffs," but why would you not want your kids to have the experience of playing some other good teams that will challenge and push them to continue to play well?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Geringer » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:36 am

Woody Paige wrote:I think the point was that it's tough to play a series of "tournament" matches when you know there's nothing more at stake, other than pride, a stark contrast to the morning rounds. For our part, there was a precipitous fall-off in Barrington A's play once they had lost twice in the afternoon and knew they still had matches to go.
Quizbowl, at its very core, boils down to taking pride in your own self-improvement. I mean, winning trophies is great and it makes you feel good about yourself, but its not like hordes of women or paparazzi start following quizbowlers around after they win a national championship. The teams that get first place can take pride in the fact that they did their best, but the twelfth place team should feel the same way if they had only taken sixteenth the week before. Please don't take this the wrong way, as I am very pleased to see the rise of several MSL teams onto the ACF-style circuit, but if your players are expecting to walk onto the scene and start slaying giants, they'll inevitably be disappointed. Coming from someone who took a lot of beatings last year, it's certainly not an easy process to get better, but if everyone got tired of losing, we wouldn't have 64-team fields and the circuit wouldn't be growing. Not even close.

Edit: I want to differentiate myself from Andrew's above post in the following sense. Feeling bad about losing is human nature and I understand how much it bites, but it's not something for you and the rest of the Barrington team to be upset about. Come back in a few weeks, work hard, and then try to improve on your performance. Upwards trends! It's a growing process with a fair amount of growth pains.

Edit edit: I didn't feel too good about my tone so I fixed some things.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:25 am

Dr. Isaac Yankem, DDS wrote: So, like, are you basically saying that your kids don't like playing quizbowl all that much?
As offensive as I find this question, I guess I can't disprove it as I'm not one of the actual players. But they did get up as early as they'd have to on a school day for no promise of anything other than a day of quizbowl (and Lou Malnati's), so I'll take that as a good sign.
Why wouldn't they enjoy games against teams that will lead to competitive matches?
While I can't say they looked like they were having fun by the time Stevenson sunk their teeth into them (heads drooping, bodies slouched, eyes wandering, etc), they had good questions during the bus ride home about what I thought it'd take to acquire the knowledge base demonstrated by their top-tier opponents.
Yeah you're bound to get blown out by a couple schools who might/should have made the "real playoffs," but why would you not want your kids to have the experience of playing some other good teams that will challenge and push them to continue to play well?
Who said I didn't? They weren't clamoring to go home and I wouldn't allow it anyway. I just said they looked like they were a bit demoralized after a difficult loss to Auburn C (on a -5 on TU 20) and a blow-out loss to DCC. These losses were educational to our kids who still don't have a great grip on what good quizbowl is. They got to see some GREAT teams up close, today. They also got to hear enough questions in enough topics get answered to start understanding where their weaknesses are.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by abnormal abdomen » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:28 am

I'd like to commend New Trier HS, Jonah Greenthal, Mr. Reinstein, and all the moderators on a really well-run and competitive tournament on a set that we really enjoyed. The level of difficulty was tough, as we wanted and expected, and the writers did a nice job. If you're looking for a good HS tournament to mirror, this would be a good tourney to look into.

Pizza was good, too (we had it cold, though, of course).
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:30 am

For those curious about stats:

Jonah has the stat files for the prelims and playoffs, all 200+ games. I'll let him post the links when he gets them uploaded.

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:32 am

Woody Paige wrote:The Fremd coach pointedly said this is the last time he's attending the NTV, as he apparently was not a fan of the power matching to determine afternoon pools. He didn't say as much, but I'd count him among the fans of single-elimination for afternoon playoffs.
I find it really frightening that he thinks this way, especially when when so many vehemently disapprove of the Fremd tournament format. Maybe the advantages of power matching, R.R., and advantaged finals are not as obvious to him as they are to me. Well good riddance.

EDIT:
dtaylor4 wrote:For those curious about stats:

Jonah has the stat files for the prelims and playoffs, all 200+ games. I'll let him post the links when he gets them uploaded.
They're on the IHSSBCA site.

And, yeah, this really was a top-notch tournament, Jonah and Mr. Reinstein. The format ran smoothly, and the set was the best I've heard this season. (Mirror this set, people!) I can't praise this tourney highly enough. Everything was efficient, professional, and fun. Kudos! (haha)
Last edited by Dan-Don on Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:34 am

Woody Paige wrote: Who said I didn't?
Woody Paige wrote: On playing 10 rounds... I think it's fine as long as you're winning. :wink:
That was the line that left me confused and basically led to my post. It made me feel like you thought your kids didn't enjoy playing so many games if there were going to be some more losses, and that you might have agreed with that. If that's not true, then i take it back, but it was just a surprising comment from someone that's been a great coach and been an advocate of "good quizbowl" on here, that's all. That, and even though you didn't put yourself in the group that likes single-elimination, those comments prompted my response.

Believe me, i hate the blowout losses a ton, and i think a team learns a heck of a lot more from losing 300-220 games than 595-0 games. It just seemed like you might be arguing against good bracketing and i wasn't sure why.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:35 am

Morning stats; full stats.

Congratulations to Auburn A for winning their second consecutive New Trier Varsity, as well as to the 47 other teams that participated. Thanks to the moderators--Alex Harrison, Andy Mathews, Colby Burnett, Craig Messner, Dan Donohue, David Garb, Donal Terrell, Greg Gauthier, Greg Peterson, Jack Glerum, Jeff Geringer, Joe Czupryn, John Brown, Kathleen Kuo, Matt Laird, Mike Perovanovic, Mike Sorice, Mike Verity, Nathan Hollinsaid, Nick Matchen, Robert Sido, Steve Server, and Tom Egan; the other staffers--Alaina Bianchi, Carolyn Gerhardt, Ben Yang, and various current New Trier player; Donald Taylor, as always the best stats guy a tournament could hope to have; the crew at Lou Malnati's; and my co-TD David Reinstein.

Thanks also to the writing and editing team. I was the head editor, assisted in large ways by David Reinstein and Matt Laird. Further editing assistance was provided by Ben Cohen, Dan Donohue, Brad Fischer, Jack Glerum, Nick Matchen, Trygve Meade, Jeff Price, Robert Sido, and Donald Taylor. In addition to those people, questions were contributed by Joe Ahmad, Carlo Angiuli, John Brown, Ian Drayer, Tom Egan, David Garb, Jeff Geringer, Alex Harrison, Michael Jiang, Adam Johnson, Andy Mathews, David Riley, Steve Server, and Alex Slack.

As I said, please join the above-linked Facebook group to discuss the questions. I want your feedback to improve the set before the mirror(s), as well as to improve my editing and writing skills generally. Again, thanks to everyone for making this tournament a success.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:47 am

Macho Man for Expediency wrote:
Edit edit: I didn't feel too good about my tone so I fixed some things.
No worries. I think BHS is going to grow into good quizbowl, but it seems it's not as simple as me willing it upon them. We have the right types of players. We also have some kids that may have had a little TOO much success playing bad, middle school quizbowl. I may expound on this theory in the MS forum.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Matt Weiner » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:50 am

Dan-Don wrote:the advantages of power matching
Such as, apparently, the team with the third-best statistics in the tournament missing the playoffs because they played the 1st place, 5th place, and 8th place teams in a 32-team field for the majority of their morning matches, while a team that did notably worse on every statistical measure got in by going 4-1 and not playing anyone in the top 10 (which makes their weaker stats all the more weak, since they were put up against a lower tier of opponents).

Can anyone give a justification for power matching beyond wanting to see their complicated math in action? It seems to create drastically less fair results than bracketing in every single instance. There is an obvious abstract reason for this: a power-matching situation that cuts the playoffs based on total record penalizes teams for doing well by making them play games they are more likely to lose as a direct result of winning prior games.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:55 am

Woody Paige wrote: While I can't say they looked like they were having fun by the time Stevenson sunk their teeth into them (heads drooping, bodies slouched, eyes wandering, etc), they had good questions during the bus ride home about what I thought it'd take to acquire the knowledge base demonstrated by their top-tier opponents.
I think it's really important to use good teams as examples to help your own team improve, but at the same time, I'd say talking up other teams too much to your own team can really have a distracting team. As we played Barrington, I noticed your players remained alert and attentive. Maybe I'm speaking naively and sound like a complete ass right now, so I guess my question is this: how do you prepare your team to play teams that are obviously better? When I captained Auburn B my sophomore year, I remember playing a Bloomington team featuring Hunter Fast, and I wasn't very experienced or good. I realized that while we wouldn't win, getting questions against this team would give me personal pride. If your team can get into and appreciate the mindset of "hey, we just broke 150 on St. Ig!", then I think they've taken a very important step towards getting legitimately better.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Huang » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:57 am

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume DCC wasn't at full strength? Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with what their exact team lineups are.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:00 am

Congratulations to Jonah and Mr. Reinstein for yet another logistical masterpiece, as well as the entire staff, led by the inestimable Lord of Stats, Donald Taylor.

Did Auburn and St. Ignatius set the record today for most matches played between two teams in one month? Today's 4 matches bring the total to a whopping 9.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:18 am

Matt Weiner wrote:
Dan-Don wrote:the advantages of power matching
Such as, apparently, the team with the third-best statistics in the tournament missing the playoffs because they played the 1st place, 5th place, and 8th place teams in a 32-team field for the majority of their morning matches, while a team that did notably worse on every statistical measure got in by going 4-1 and not playing anyone in the top 10 (which makes their weaker stats all the more weak, since they were put up against a lower tier of opponents).

Can anyone give a justification for power matching beyond wanting to see their complicated math in action? It seems to create drastically less fair results than bracketing in every single instance. There is an obvious abstract reason for this: a power-matching situation that cuts the playoffs based on total record penalizes teams for doing well by making them play games they are more likely to lose as a direct result of winning prior games.
Oh I'm sorry Matt, I forgot you know the ins-and-outs of the Fremd tournament that I was talking about. You're right...last year's Fremd prelim bracket of WWS/BG/Loyola--and then 16-team single elimination--was far superior to the format that Jonah, Brad, and Mr. Reinstein worked out.

Edit:
Huang wrote:I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume DCC wasn't at full strength? Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with what their exact team lineups are.
Actually, the names of the players on their roster would indicate that they were at full strength. (Assuming they were at full strength at UIUC Earlybird when they lost to Loyola A and C-Dale A.) 2010 DCC might not be the caliber of DCC team we're used to: after all, me and my former team (and we weren't that good) narrowly beat DCC B (which I assume has a lineup similar to 2010 DCC A) at the 2009 HSNCT.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:26 am

Oliver Ellsworth wrote: I think it's really important to use good teams as examples to help your own team improve, but at the same time, I'd say talking up other teams too much to your own team can really have a distracting team. As we played Barrington, I noticed your players remained alert and attentive. Maybe I'm speaking naively and sound like a complete ass right now, so I guess my question is this: how do you prepare your team to play teams that are obviously better? When I captained Auburn B my sophomore year, I remember playing a Bloomington team featuring Hunter Fast, and I wasn't very experienced or good. I realized that while we wouldn't win, getting questions against this team would give me personal pride. If your team can get into and appreciate the mindset of "hey, we just broke 150 on St. Ig!", then I think they've taken a very important step towards getting legitimately better.
Well, to be sure, I warned them they were in for a tough match when we entered the room. And they seemed to "get" what was happening; a team with superior knowledge and preparation was across from them. And they also were taking mental notes on how your team approached the game, seeing if there was anything they could take from the match. (Their frames of mind were visibly different later in the day... Their collective mental stamina just isn't there yet, I guess!)
Congratulations, by the way!
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Matt Weiner » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:32 am

Dan-Don wrote:Oh I'm sorry Matt, I forgot you know the ins-and-outs of the Fremd tournament that I was talking about. You're right...last year's Fremd prelim bracket of WWS/BG/Loyola--and then 16-team single elimination--was far superior to the format that Jonah, Brad, and Mr. Reinstein worked out.
What was effectively done here was to give Stevenson a prelim bracket containing themselves, Auburn, Loyola, and Northmont. So, the tournament accomplished something just as unfair as this Fremd tournament's bracketing, except it convinced itself that it was OK because of the dogmatic acceptance of "power matching" as fair and seeding-independent when it is (both mathematically and empirically) less of those things than bracketing is.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:33 am

Matt Weiner wrote:a power-matching situation that cuts the playoffs based on total record penalizes teams for doing well by making them play games they are more likely to lose as a direct result of winning prior games.
You know, when Auburn was taking us to the wood shed, I was wondering the same thing; would we have been better off losing to OPRF and then following OPRF's path? But looking at their matches, and knowing that DCC (OPRF's round 5 opponent) crushed us in the afternoon, I'd have to assume we'd have still been a 3-2 team.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Huang » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:37 am

Dan-Don wrote: Actually, the names of the players on their roster would indicate that they were at full strength. (Assuming they were at full strength at UIUC Earlybird when they lost to Loyola A and C-Dale A.) 2010 DCC might not be the caliber of DCC team we're used to: after all, me and my former team (and we weren't that good) narrowly beat DCC B (which I assume has a lineup similar to 2010 DCC A) at the 2009 HSNCT.
Ryan and Matthew seem to have been missing. Confirming my suspicions, DCC indeed was not at full strength.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by BRizzle » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:38 am

DCC was not at full strength and it didn't help that they had to face the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finishers all in the morning. I want to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this tournament, even though we got pounded in the afternoon. We got to play some great teams on well-written questions, and I loved the Kudos bars :wink:
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:40 am

Woody Paige wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:a power-matching situation that cuts the playoffs based on total record penalizes teams for doing well by making them play games they are more likely to lose as a direct result of winning prior games.
You know, when Auburn was taking us to the wood shed, I was wondering the same thing; would we have been better off losing to OPRF and then following OPRF's path? But looking at their matches, and knowing that DCC (OPRF's round 5 opponent) crushed us in the afternoon, I'd have to assume we'd have still been a 3-2 team.
I realized this when I was looking at the schedule for Solo 2008: If you can correctly predict who you beat and who you lose to, you have the chance of faring better by losing on purpose to certain teams.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:41 am

Matt Weiner wrote:
Dan-Don wrote:Oh I'm sorry Matt, I forgot you know the ins-and-outs of the Fremd tournament that I was talking about. You're right...last year's Fremd prelim bracket of WWS/BG/Loyola--and then 16-team single elimination--was far superior to the format that Jonah, Brad, and Mr. Reinstein worked out.
What was effectively done here was to give Stevenson a prelim bracket containing themselves, Auburn, Loyola, and Northmont. So, the tournament accomplished something just as unfair as this Fremd tournament's bracketing, except it convinced itself that it was OK because of the dogmatic acceptance of "power matching" as fair and seeding-independent when it is (both mathematically and empirically) less of those things than bracketing is.
That is not the reason it convinced itself it was ok. Jonah even admits that, speaking in absolute terms (that is, not relative to the Fremd tournament), power-matching is a less-than-ideal tournament format. Power-matching was ok because this tournament needed a format to fit 48 teams and 12 packets. After much discussion, this was clearly the best such format. I was an early detractor, but having actually been there today and seen this tournament run with remarkable efficiency, I will defend the choices of the NTV TDs even though Stevenson might have been shafted. But that happens in quizbowl. There will never be a tournament that can guarantee a perfect format or perfect fairness. There are too many factors at play for that happen. And to clarify: when I discussed "the advantages of power-matching,"I was speaking in terms relative to the incredibly poor choices that the Fremd Varsity tournament makes format-wise.
Huang wrote:
Dan-Don wrote: Actually, the names of the players on their roster would indicate that they were at full strength. (Assuming they were at full strength at UIUC Earlybird when they lost to Loyola A and C-Dale A.) 2010 DCC might not be the caliber of DCC team we're used to: after all, me and my former team (and we weren't that good) narrowly beat DCC B (which I assume has a lineup similar to 2010 DCC A) at the 2009 HSNCT.
Ryan and Matthew seem to have been missing. Confirming my suspicions, DCC indeed was not at full strength.
Oh, my mistake. I was reading a little too quickly.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Matt Weiner » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:54 am

Dan-Don wrote:That is not the reason it convinced itself it was ok. Jonah even admits that, speaking in absolute terms (that is, not relative to the Fremd tournament), power-matching is a less-than-ideal tournament format. Power-matching was ok because this tournament needed a format to fit 48 teams and 12 packets. After much discussion, this was clearly the best such format.
I don't know what strange philosophical premises would lead one to believe this; the tournament excluded a third of the field from any possibility of making the playoffs before round 1 was even played, penalized teams for winning games, and didn't even come close to taking the top 6 teams to the 6-team playoffs. Many people have run 48-team tournaments before. It is not such an impossible task that a Dadaist format that chooses half of the playoff teams at random is the "best" or only option.
I was an early detractor, but having actually been there today and seen this tournament run with remarkable efficiency
What does "efficiency" mean in the context of the format? How would a bracketed tournament over the same number of rounds been less "efficient"?
I will defend the choices of the NTV TDs even though Stevenson might have been shafted. But that happens in quizbowl. There will never be a tournament that can guarantee a perfect format or perfect fairness. There are too many factors at play for that happen.
The fact that we cannot be perfectly fair doesn't imply that we should come up with a ludicrous format that goes out of its way at multiple points to be needlessly unfair, as this tournament did.
And to clarify: when I discussed "the advantages of power-matching,"I was speaking in terms relative to the incredibly poor choices that the Fremd Varsity tournament makes format-wise.
Which, you do not seem to understand, were exactly duplicated by this tournament.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:05 am

48 teams. 12 packets. Make a better format, Weiner. One that is pure round robin and doesn't involve any scary things like power-matching, half-packets, double elimination, separate divisions for B/C/D teams, cross-bracket matches, etc.

The way you talk, it sounds as though you would have preferred that the 2009 NTV didn't happen. The 2009 iteration of NTV did a lot for good quizbowl in our state. It was an amazing tournament. I'm sorry that someone is a little fussy about Stevenson's final placement....
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:11 am

Earthquake wrote:What about 8 brackets of 6, and the top teams plus four wild-card teams play in two parallel championship brackets of 6 (and consolation brackets of 6 for teams outside the top 12? It would take the same amount of rounds (though it could possibly make tiebreakers a bit of a mess), and all 48 teams would be in contention for the entire time.
Ahem.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:16 am

Earthquake wrote:
Earthquake wrote:What about 8 brackets of 6, and the top teams plus four wild-card teams play in two parallel championship brackets of 6 (and consolation brackets of 6 for teams outside the top 12? It would take the same amount of rounds though it could possibly make tiebreakers a bit of a mess), and all 48 teams would be in contention for the entire time.
Ahem.
I would like this idea too. But the idea of parallel brackets also carries with it an inherent unfairness. It's like I said, there really isn't a "right" answer here. Every format has its up-and-downs--including today's. I'm just sorry that Matt Weiner is being so negative about the way NTV was run.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Matt Weiner » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:19 am

Dan-Don wrote:48 teams. 12 packets. Make a better format, Weiner. One that is pure round robin and doesn't involve any scary things like power-matching, half-packets, double elimination, separate divisions for B/C/D teams, cross-bracket matches, etc.

The way you talk, it sounds as though you would have preferred that the 2009 NTV didn't happen. The 2009 iteration of NTV did a lot for good quizbowl in our state. It was an amazing tournament. I'm sorry that someone is a little fussy about Stevenson's final placement....
Are you trying to check off every form of avoision in one thread? Cool it with the stupid irrelevancies before another board staffer has to intervene. Stop calling people out, stop accusing people of preferring the tournament not happen, stop using pejoratives about being "fussy" in response to people using concrete examples to make their points rather than wild invective, and stop telling me the tournament was "amazing" until I can see the questions, while you're at it.

For 48 teams, I would probably divide into 6 brackets of 8 for rounds 1-7, then take the top 2 in each group to a single-elim playoff. Ideally, I would have a tournament set of more than 12 rounds and take the top 2 in each group to a 2x6 bracketed playoffs over rounds 8-12 followed by breaking bracket ties and having a final, but that would require a minimum of 14 total rounds (you really don't need to count the post-playoff rounds against the tournament time since all but 3 or 4 teams are done at that point, but you do need packets for them). Given the choice between what this tournament did (extremely unreliable format for deciding who made the playoffs, followed by carrying over records such that the issues with the prelims affected standings within the championship bracket) I don't believe it received any of the advantages of properly constructed playoff round-robin brackets, and would have been lost very little fairness-wise by doing a single-elim playoff, in exchange for the huge benefit of making the prelim-playoff cutoff more fair. Again, the ideal would be to prepare the number of packets needed for the better format rather than either doing single-elim or spiraling into the power matching cargo cult, but given the constraints you set up, that is how the tournament should have run.
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