Possible September Tournament

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:53 pm

Saint Viator is considering making a bid for the Fall Novice Set, but the only date that works with our administration is September 26th. What do you guys think? Would we be able to attract a suitable number (I'm thinking 12-24) of teams? Unfortunately, we are required to put some entry restrictions on this tournament, so we'd probably blacklist:

Auburn A
Loyola A
Stevenson A
Maine South A
Viator A

Not really sure who else...any ideas?

MLaudermith · Post by **MLaudermith** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:11 pm

It's great to hear St. Viator put in a bid. Fenton would definitely be interested in going, though I agree you'll probably have some trouble finding teams. If/when your bid is accepted, you should probably start sending emails to coaches in the last week of August. I'd be happy to reach out to the other coaches in our conference.

As far as blacklisting teams, here is the IHSSBCA list for Turnabouts (mainly Regional champs and big tournament winners): Altamont, Auburn, Barrington, Belleville West, Boylan, Buffalo Grove, Byron, Carbondale, Carmel, Charleston, Columbia, Fairfield, Fremd, Glenwood, Hinsdale South, Homewood-Flossmoor, IMSA, LaSalle Peru, Latin, Lisle, Litchfield, Loyola,
Macomb, Mahomet-Seymour, Maine South, Moline, Morrison, Naperville Central, Naperville North, New Berlin, New Trier,
Normal U High, Oak Park/River Forest, Peoria Christian, PORTA, Quincy, Riverdale, Saint Bede, Saint Joseph-Ogden, Saint Viator, South Central, Springfield, Sterling, Stevenson, Timothy Christian, Warrensburg-Latham, Wheaton Warrenville South, and Winnebago.

I would include Carbondale, New Trier, and Latin on your list, but I wouldn't be averse to seeing any of the others at your tournament. I hope it all comes together!

jonah · Post by **jonah** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:36 pm

MLaudermith wrote:As far as blacklisting teams, here is the IHSSBCA list for Turnabouts (mainly Regional champs and big tournament winners): Altamont, Auburn, Barrington, Belleville West, Boylan, Buffalo Grove, Byron, Carbondale, Carmel, Charleston, Columbia, Fairfield, Fremd, Glenwood, Hinsdale South, Homewood-Flossmoor, IMSA, LaSalle Peru, Latin, Lisle, Litchfield, Loyola,
Macomb, Mahomet-Seymour, Maine South, Moline, Morrison, Naperville Central, Naperville North, New Berlin, New Trier,
Normal U High, Oak Park/River Forest, Peoria Christian, PORTA, Quincy, Riverdale, Saint Bede, Saint Joseph-Ogden, Saint Viator, South Central, Springfield, Sterling, Stevenson, Timothy Christian, Warrensburg-Latham, Wheaton Warrenville South, and Winnebago.

I would include Carbondale, New Trier, and Latin on your list, but I wouldn't be averse to seeing any of the others at your tournament. I hope it all comes together!

The Turnabout blacklist is, by policy, based on last year's results. I think that produces problems, though: in '08, Wheaton North was one of the top few teams in the state. In '09, they were quite poor and probably should've been at Turnabout, but were blacklisted from it because of the '08 successes. A similar situation is almost certain to apply this year to New Trier and, to a lesser extent, Loyola. So I'd caution against strictly using the Turnabout blacklist.

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:08 pm

I wonder if there is some way of setting up criteria for this. It could go something along the lines of if your team won more than 50 matches last year then anybody who was one of your top five last year can't play, if you won more than 30 then last year's top three can't play, and otherwise your top one can't play (meaning there could be no restriction if your best players were seniors last year). Or possibly make it so that anybody who answered 50+ tossups playing for your Varsity A Team last year can't play.

Looking at my team, I think that the most reasonable thing to do would be to keep Steve out of this tournament but allow anybody else, since I don't have anybody else who I think would get a bunch of early buzzes on this set. If you wanted to eliminate juniors who were decent Frosh/Soph players last year, then we have one other person who probably does not belong. There are probably several teams with similar situations.

The Moviegoer · Post by **The Moviegoer** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:33 am

I might be able to talk Lakes into this

the return of AHAN · Post by **the return of AHAN** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:43 am

MLaudermith wrote:It's great to hear St. Viator put in a bid. Fenton would definitely be interested in going, though I agree you'll probably have some trouble finding teams. If/when your bid is accepted, you should probably start sending emails to coaches in the last week of August. I'd be happy to reach out to the other coaches in our conference.

As far as blacklisting teams, here is the IHSSBCA list for Turnabouts (mainly Regional champs and big tournament winners): ... Barrington...

Really? How did that happen? Last I checked, BHS won no varsity tournaments of any sort last year. The only championship effort would be the frosh/soph MSL Pre-season tournament, but I don't consider that to be much of a championship as we received no trophy, plaque, or ribbon for our efforts.

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:06 am

Because the list is based on the previous year's results, we weigh Varsity and Frosh/Soph equally. Your Frosh/Soph Team made our results page three times, which is why you are listed. If you believe it would be appropriate for your team to play in a tournament that bans the top 50-60 teams in Illinois, then send me an email.

BGSO · Post by **BGSO** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:02 pm

IMHO, I really feel that the exclusions to this tournament should be minimal at the worst. I agree that people like Zach, Deveau, Zahed, etc.. should be excluded; However when looking at our team (which seems to be the norm for the above average teams in our area in terms of player loss). We have two people who would not benefit from playing this tournament, the rest of the team would probably put up 16-19ppb which is exactly where the ideal would like them to be. So as far as blacklisting teams I really don't think that list is good, however I do feel that something needs to be done to prevent the best teams at full strength from putting up 27ppb.

the return of AHAN · Post by **the return of AHAN** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:57 pm

Shcool wrote:Because the list is based on the previous year's results, we weigh Varsity and Frosh/Soph equally. Your Frosh/Soph Team made our results page three times, which is why you are listed. If you believe it would be appropriate for your team to play in a tournament that bans the top 50-60 teams in Illinois, then send me an email.

Fair enough. The original list was headed with a description of teams that had won regionals or major tournaments, thus my confusion. Historically, the Fenton Turnabout has conflicted with MSL Pre-Season, so Barrington's (or any MSL school's) inclusion on THAT blacklist is really neither here nor there. But I'd like to present our new varsity coach with a chance to attend a tournament as early as possible to get his feet wet, and a novice set tournament at Viator would be ideal.

(edited to complete my last sentence)

Dresden_The_BIG_JERK · Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:58 am

As mentioned previously, the date would likely be an issue. Getting a lot of interest that early in the year seems improbable to me...

Geringer · Post by **Geringer** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:36 pm

It could work...if we schedule this the same day as the cheerleader car wash...and call it the Septemberist.

Maxwell Sniffingwell · Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:37 pm

SomethingBetterAndLessCumbersome wrote:It could work...if we schedule this the same day as the cheerleader car wash...and call it the Septemberist.

Jeez, what happened to your username?

Post by **Auks Ran Ova** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:02 pm

cornfused wrote:
SomethingBetterAndLessCumbersome wrote:It could work...if we schedule this the same day as the cheerleader car wash...and call it the Septemberist.
Jeez, what happened to your username?

viewtopic.php?p=137869#p137869

Geringer · Post by **Geringer** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:05 pm

Ukonvasara wrote:
cornfused wrote:
SomethingBetterAndLessCumbersome wrote:It could work...if we schedule this the same day as the cheerleader car wash...and call it the Septemberist.
Jeez, what happened to your username?
viewtopic.php?p=137869#p137869

MODS=GODS

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:15 am

Well I just got back from ACE Camp and sent in the bid. It looks like we're going to be going with a system of blacklisting players, not teams, as suggested by Brad and Mr. Riley. I know the date is an issue...but, it's really the only date that works with Viator. I love the idea of calling it the Septemberist, since the Decemberist was originally going to bid for this set.

Jane Fairfax · Post by **Jane Fairfax** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:49 pm

I don't know if Auburn will attend a tournament this early, but considering they do and I'm blacklisted, I'd really like to read this, which I've already told Dan.

Charley Pride · Post by **Charley Pride** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:47 pm

*Echoes Lloyd Kevin Sy*

Edit: Inability to use html hurts.

Jane Fairfax · Post by **Jane Fairfax** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:12 pm

Are we blacklisting teams or individuals?

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:27 pm

Jane Fairfax wrote:I don't know if Auburn will attend a tournament this early, but considering they do and I'm blacklisted, I'd really like to read this, which I've already told Dan.

Aub-ZH wrote:*Echoes Lloyd Kevin Sy*

Edit: Inability to use html hurts.

Awesome! If Auburn decides to come, I will definitely have you guys read. Mrs. O'Laughlin and I will also each read a room. I just have to scrounge up a couple more readers and scorekeepers. (This is assuming we get the set. The deadline for bids is July 1st--does anyone know how fast the decision will be made??)

EDIT: Lloyd posted while I was writing this:

Jane Fairfax wrote:Are we blacklisting teams or individuals?

We are blacklisting individuals.

To coaches and players: I know the date and the blacklist make this tournament unattractive, but I think "The Septemberist" will be a good opportunity for the growth of the less-skilled players in Illinois and a good way to gauge the "supporting casts" of the superstar players in our state.

The tentative blacklist is: Zach Blumenfeld, Andrew Deveau, Dan Donohue, Greg Dzuricsko, Zahed Haseeb, Neal Kfoury, Christian Kreb, Jack Nuelle (Viator), Arjun Puranik, Prathyum Ramesh (if he hasn't graduated from Meadows--does anyone know?), Steve Server, Lloyd Sy, Robert Volgman (Latin), Julia Wang (Stevenson), and Marcel Youkhna. Am I forgetting anyone?

jonah · Post by **jonah** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:37 pm

DD60004 wrote:The tentative blacklist is: Zach Blumenfeld, Dan Donohue, Zahed Haseeb, Arjun Puranik, Lloyd Sy, and Marcel Youkhna. Other possibilities: Christian Kreb, Jack Nuelle (from Viator), Robert Volgman (from Latin). Am I forgetting anyone?

Andrew Deveau, possibly Steve Server.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:48 pm

jonah wrote:
DD60004 wrote:The tentative blacklist is: Zach Blumenfeld, Dan Donohue, Zahed Haseeb, Arjun Puranik, Lloyd Sy, and Marcel Youkhna. Other possibilities: Christian Kreb, Jack Nuelle (from Viator), Robert Volgman (from Latin). Am I forgetting anyone?
Andrew Deveau, possibly Steve Server.

Oh gosh, yeah. I put Andrew on the blacklist when I emailed my bid. Just forgot him here. I'll amend that.

Charley Pride · Post by **Charley Pride** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:03 pm

DD60004 wrote: Marcel Youkhna

Really? I wouldn't do this...And Christian K. should be blacklisted for sure--He played Loyola A most of his junior year, and he was easily one of the best sophomores in the state when we were all sophomores.

Though I don't know if Carbondale would make this trip, Jeremiah Monk obviously should be on the list.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:12 pm

Aub-ZH wrote:
DD60004 wrote: Marcel Youkhna
Really? I wouldn't do this...And Christian K. should be blacklisted for sure--He played Loyola A most of his junior year, and he was easily one of the best sophomores in the state when we were all sophomores.

Though I don't know if Carbondale would make this trip, Jeremiah Monk obviously should be on the list.

Mr. Riley suggested Marcel, and I have to agree. He did very well on the F/S circuit and should be a force on Varsity next season. I'll definitely include Christian and Jeremiah. Does anyone know if Prathyum from Rolling Meadows is still around?

abnormal abdomen · Post by **abnormal abdomen** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:13 pm

Umm... Greg Dzuricsko of Lisle?

Charley Pride · Post by **Charley Pride** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:17 pm

I won't argue with that. No one knows a player better than his coach. You should blacklist both of Lisle's stars (Greg and Neal), as well as Julia Wang of Stevenson.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Aub-ZH wrote:I won't argue with that. No one knows a player better than his coach. You should blacklist both of Lisle's stars (Greg and Neal), as well as Julia Wang of Stevenson.

Right, forgot about them. Thanks.

Charley Pride · Post by **Charley Pride** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:38 pm

Cresston Gackle, Bonny Jain

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:45 pm

Aub-ZH wrote:Cresston Gackle, Bonny Jain

I don't know them. What schools?

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out--Bettendorf and IMSA?

abnormal abdomen · Post by **abnormal abdomen** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:54 pm

DD60004 wrote:
Aub-ZH wrote:Cresston Gackle, Bonny Jain
I don't know them. What schools?

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out--Bettendorf and IMSA?

That's correct.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:00 pm

Gabriel Luis Neruda wrote:
DD60004 wrote:
Aub-ZH wrote:Cresston Gackle, Bonny Jain
I don't know them. What schools?

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out--Bettendorf and IMSA?
That's correct.

OK. Aren't there a couple kids from the Naperville schools and WWS that are good?

abnormal abdomen · Post by **abnormal abdomen** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:23 pm

I really don't know.

Irreligion in Bangladesh · Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:03 pm

Naperville Central has Krystle Leung, who I'd probably blacklist, as well as Ian (Idon'tknowhislastname), who I might not. I don't know who graduated from WWS.

Jane Fairfax · Post by **Jane Fairfax** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:25 pm

Looking over at the tournament announcements, it looks like Bettendorf is also looking to gain the Fall Novice Set for their tournament.

BGSO · Post by **BGSO** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:29 pm

Black list Greg Ward and Sarah Peluse from us, Sarah played varsity all year and and Greg put up 15 at HSNCT and has picked up basically everything we've given him so far.

Skepticism and Animal Feed · Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:08 pm

Gabriel Luis Neruda wrote:Umm... Greg Dzuricsko of Lisle?

Look at that name. Clearly a red.

JackGlerum · Post by **JackGlerum** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:58 pm

I'm surprised nobody has opposed this yet, but I'll say it: it is a bad idea to blacklist teams for Fall Novice, especially if the Illinois mirror will be early in the season.

Being a "top team/player in Illinois", doesn't mean you are "too good" for a "novice" tournament. If this set is akin to HAVOC, I'd say it is a perfect fit for all teams/players in the beginning of the season.

This blacklisting enthusiasm is another veiled example of Illinois people thinking they are better than they actually are (see: me pre-2008 HSNCT). Ask anyone who was around last season: next year will be a big step back in terms of the number of talented teams/players in the state. Telling teams/players "you are too good for this event" is a bad way to kick off the season and will only make the problem worse.

Let every team/player compete in this tournament. If there are 30ppbs across the board, then you can rip me all you want. I don't see it.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:29 pm

I'm not going to publicly comment on the proposed system, but I do think it's fair to note that part of the requirement in the fall novice announcement is for hosts to propose a restriction on their field entry in order to create a more novice feel, whatever that means for their circuit.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:47 pm

styxman wrote:Naperville Central has Krystle Leung, who I'd probably blacklist, as well as Ian (Idon'tknowhislastname), who I might not. I don't know who graduated from WWS.

Ok, I'll add Leung unless anyone speaks up and wants me to add Ian.

BGSO wrote:Black list Greg Ward and Sarah Peluse from us, Sarah played varsity all year and and Greg put up 15 at HSNCT and has picked up basically everything we've given him so far.

I don't know these two, are they really on the same level of all the people on the blacklist in that they'd make short work of a Novice set? If they are, I guess I'll add them.

JackGlerum wrote:I'm surprised nobody has opposed this yet, but I'll say it: it is a bad idea to blacklist teams for Fall Novice, especially if the Illinois mirror will be early in the season

The Fall Novice people require that we have entry restrictions. So basically, if I blacklisted the good teams, I would have blacklisted the teams interested in a tournament like this. So, as suggested by Brad and Mr. Riley, I'm blacklisting players.

Charley Pride · Post by **Charley Pride** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:06 pm

JackGlerum wrote:Being a "top team/player in Illinois", doesn't mean you are "too good" for a "novice" tournament.

another veiled example of Illinois people thinking they are better than they actually are

I echo this sentiment, but, as Dan said, Fall Novice has requirements.

next year will be a big step back in terms of the number of talented teams/players in the state

Not as big quantity-wise as you would think, but this year's great won't be quite as great as last year's great.

Irreligion in Bangladesh · Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:17 pm

I just want to throw something out there - I named Krystle and possibly Ian as players who should be blacklisted based on who's been named so far. Jack's argument is working at me a little, and I'm thinking up a post about if we should let up a bit on the restrictions.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:26 pm

styxman wrote:I just want to throw something out there - I named Krystle and possibly Ian as players who should be blacklisted based on who's been named so far. Jack's argument is working at me a little, and I'm thinking up a post about if we should let up a bit on the restrictions.

Well let me know. I'm willing to ease up the restrictions, of course.

EDIT: Just got this email from the Fall Novice people:

cdcarter wrote:Thank you for sending in your bid. After discussion between the set editors and overseers, we have determined that we are not very comfortable with a blacklist style restriction system. We think it would be much wiser to have a metric based on years of play or performance at a national tournament. We hope that you will resubmit a bid, as we would love to see Viator host this set.

I'm not exactly sure what I should do. What does everyone think?

Jane Fairfax · Post by **Jane Fairfax** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:49 pm

Viator should definitely try to host the tournament, as any good quality tournament that can be hosted should be. Although if you do go with the restrictions based on prior performance, take me off the reading list because I certainly won't be blacklisted with one year of high school play and a total of like 25 tossups between the two national tournaments.

On a side note, when are we starting the "Illinois 09-10" thread?

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:05 pm

Jane Fairfax wrote:Although if you do go with the restrictions based on prior performance, take me off the reading list because I certainly won't be blacklisted with one year of high school play and a total of like 25 tossups between the two national tournaments.

So then this "metric" doesn't really change my original blacklist since it essentially consists of the non-seniors who went All-State last year or accompanied a team to nationals. I just have to delete any players who don't fit those criteria.

Post by **Auks Ran Ova** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:49 pm

Dude, just run a freshman/sophomore tournament. If that doesn't suit you, make the cutoff "two years of participation in varsity-level qb". Why complicate things unnecessarily?

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:51 pm

Ukonvasara wrote:Dude, just run a freshman/sophomore tournament. If that doesn't suit you, make the cutoff "two years of participation in varsity-level qb". Why complicate things unnecessarily?

My original inclination was frosh/soph, but Brad (who gave me this idea) talked me out of it. I guess I could go back to that idea.

Charley Pride · Post by **Charley Pride** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:54 pm

When it comes to national performance, no one had numbers good enough to be blacklisted. When it comes to years of play, would we eliminate just seniors? Or does it become a F/S tourney? Novice tournaments are so complicated...I'd say we employ a Potter Stewart metric and leave it up to the coaches. Advertise it as a novice tournament geared towards less experienced/less skilled (?) players, and if a coach thinks his/her players are too good to play in it, then so be it. If this indeed is a novice tournament, then the best few players shouldn't be able to play. Otherwise, it is just like every other tournament, and it doesn't sound like the set provider wants that. I remember playing in a local novice tournament my freshman year, and it was basically F/S players and non-A-teamers. I see Fall Novice as an opportunity to have an open tryout for teams (like Auburn) who aren't quite sure who they want as their starting 4 (5). Present Viator's mirror as an opportunity for new players (novices? oh, my!) to get their feet wet at a varsity tournament, as well as some untapped talents to prove themselves. There isn't a single tournament in Illinois with good questions AND a good format that all the powerhouses don't go to. Yes, we aren't quite sure how powerful the powerhouses will be, or who, for that matter, but I'm sure coaches Greene, Riley, etc. have some idea of who doesn't belong in the "novice" mix.

In sum: F/S, with upperclassmen without real varsity experience (maybe kick out all A-teamers), and coaches keeping in mind that any hanky-panky will draw the thunderous rage of the quiz bowl community.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:58 pm

Aub-ZH wrote:In sum: F/S, with upperclassmen without real varsity experience (maybe kick out all A-teamers), and coaches keeping in mind that any hanky-panky will draw the thunderous rage of the quiz bowl community.

This sounds reasonable to me. I'm waiting to hear from the Fall Novice People.

Jane Fairfax · Post by **Jane Fairfax** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:01 pm

Zahed's idea is great. Coaches should have enough sense to know that having people play in this tournament who are above this level is both a waste of time and a condemnable action.

There's no better way to decide who to start on our team than to have them play in a good tourney and see how they fare. This should also help determine B teams and team weaknesses, and it should be a great indication of up and coming players and the future of Illinois quiz bowl.

Charley Pride · Post by **Charley Pride** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:02 pm

DD60004 wrote:reasonable

Call me Oliver Ellsworth.

Dan-Don · Post by **Dan-Don** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:11 pm

cdcarter wrote:Dan,
We have been following the discussion on the forums and we feel that the system that Zahed outlined (viewtopic.php?p=138998#p138998) and you found satisfactory to be definitely preferable.

My response? "Zahed's system."

Zahed, I tip my hat to you.