2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

Cheynem wrote:Yes, it is really famous, but so is the Academic Festival Overture. To me, this tossup basically becomes a series of giveaways after the power mark.
Keep in mind that these sets are played by lots of people who have never picked up a buzzer before; that the end of the question contains multiple really famous clues is a feature, not a bug. (I know nothing of music, so I'll assume that the clues in power give teams with deep knowledge a fair shot at distinguishing themselves.)
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I don't think Academic Festival is really a giveaway for a bunch of high schoolers. I also think that it is less famous than the lullaby.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Down and out in Quintana Roo
Auron
Posts: 2907
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Camden, DE
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:I don't think Academic Festival is really a giveaway for a bunch of high schoolers. I also think that it is less famous than the lullaby.
It is. The question isn't that bad though; it's fine.
Mr. Andrew Chrzanowski
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6740
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Cheynem »

Yeah, I wasn't trying to assail the question, I was just saying that in my opinion it seemed like the final clues were of equal difficulty, but I recognize that they may not be.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
dxdtdemon
Rikku
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: Beavercreek, OH

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by dxdtdemon »

Bird Sonata wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote: I think the right policy solution for NAQT is to have our writers and editors crack down on overly difficult material in next year's A-series leadins.
I'd like to point out that some tossups in A sets were too difficult for that level, such as the Strindberg tossup in IS 82A. How many novice teams are going to get that? I think during the editing process, questions with answers too difficult/obscure should be left out and replaced with something easier.
I would also like to point out that there was a leadin on an A set using the eigenvalue of something or other. I would think that very few high school players would know about them, and the ones that do wouldn't be playing novice tournaments.
Jonathan Graham
Beavercreek HS 1999-2003, Ohio State 2003-2007, Wright State (possibly playing)2012-2015
moderator/scorekeeper at some tournaments in Ohio, and sometimes elsewhere
"Ohio has a somewhat fractured quizbowl circuit, with a few small pockets of intense competition (like in Mahoning County) and with the rest scattered around the state."-Chris Chiego

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

quantumfootball wrote:I would also like to point out that there was a leadin on an A set using the eigenvalue of something or other. I would think that very few high school players would know about them, and the ones that do wouldn't be playing novice tournaments.
IS #78A wrote:The eigenvalues of a quantum mechanical Hamiltonian represent amounts of this physical quantity; forms of it result from multiplying a field by a charge, a power output by a (*) duration, or half an object's mass by the square of its speed. For 10 points--name this quantity measured in joules.

answer: _energy_ (do not accept "kinetic energy" or "potential energy")
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Captain Sinico
Auron
Posts: 2855
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:46 pm
Location: Champaign, Illinois

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Captain Sinico »

Leadin hard, eh? Preposterous!

MaS
Mike Sorice
Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
ACF
IHSSBCA
PACE

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

Bird Sonata wrote:I'd like to point out that some tossups in A sets were too difficult for that level, such as the Strindberg tossup in IS 82A. How many novice teams are going to get that?
We don't have any conversion data for high school-level Strindberg tossups. But since Strindberg was answered in 17 of 38 rooms at the DII SCT, he's almost certainly too hard for (non-HSNCT) high school play as well.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Down and out in Quintana Roo
Auron
Posts: 2907
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Camden, DE
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

bt_green_warbler wrote:
Bird Sonata wrote:I'd like to point out that some tossups in A sets were too difficult for that level, such as the Strindberg tossup in IS 82A. How many novice teams are going to get that?
We don't have any conversion data for high school-level Strindberg tossups. But since Strindberg was answered in 17 of 38 rooms at the DII SCT, he's almost certainly too hard for (non-HSNCT) high school play as well.
I dunno, i'm not sure if it's too hard. How many other "pessimistic Swedish playwrights" do you really need to know? I think he'd be okay to leave there. If we're really going to go tossup by tossup and see what answers are "too hard," then i think A-sets would drastically change because we all know that while they're designed for "novice teams/players," probably more tha half the teams that play on them are certainly not novice.
Mr. Andrew Chrzanowski
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org

User avatar
AlphaQuizBowler
Tidus
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:31 pm
Location: Alpharetta, GA

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by AlphaQuizBowler »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
Bird Sonata wrote:I'd like to point out that some tossups in A sets were too difficult for that level, such as the Strindberg tossup in IS 82A. How many novice teams are going to get that?
We don't have any conversion data for high school-level Strindberg tossups. But since Strindberg was answered in 17 of 38 rooms at the DII SCT, he's almost certainly too hard for (non-HSNCT) high school play as well.
I dunno, i'm not sure if it's too hard. How many other "pessimistic Swedish playwrights" do you really need to know? I think he'd be okay to leave there. If we're really going to go tossup by tossup and see what answers are "too hard," then i think A-sets would drastically change because we all know that while they're designed for "novice teams/players," probably more tha half the teams that play on them are certainly not novice.
Strindberg is most definitely a difficult answer choice, and I would expect little, if any, true "novice" high school teams to convert it. I think the point of A-set discussion is to achieve exactly what you describe in the second half of your post: eliminating too-hard answer choices to create a set that actually is appropriate for novices.
William
Alpharetta High School '11
Harvard '15

User avatar
Dresden_The_BIG_JERK
Tidus
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:56 am
Location: Lowell, IN
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK »

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:
Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
Bird Sonata wrote:I'd like to point out that some tossups in A sets were too difficult for that level, such as the Strindberg tossup in IS 82A. How many novice teams are going to get that?
We don't have any conversion data for high school-level Strindberg tossups. But since Strindberg was answered in 17 of 38 rooms at the DII SCT, he's almost certainly too hard for (non-HSNCT) high school play as well.
I dunno, i'm not sure if it's too hard. How many other "pessimistic Swedish playwrights" do you really need to know? I think he'd be okay to leave there. If we're really going to go tossup by tossup and see what answers are "too hard," then i think A-sets would drastically change because we all know that while they're designed for "novice teams/players," probably more tha half the teams that play on them are certainly not novice.
Strindberg is most definitely a difficult answer choice, and I would expect little, if any, true "novice" high school teams to convert it. I think the point of A-set discussion is to achieve exactly what you describe in the second half of your post: eliminating too-hard answer choices to create a set that actually is appropriate for novices.
Can someone possibly post the text of this tossup?
BJ Houlding

Winnebago '04
Saint Joseph's College '08
IHSSBCA Certified Moderator

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

Dresden The Moderator wrote:Can someone possibly post the text of this tossup?
It got hidden at the bottom of page 1.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:I dunno, i'm not sure if it's too hard. How many other "pessimistic Swedish playwrights" do you really need to know? I think he'd be okay to leave there. If we're really going to go tossup by tossup and see what answers are "too hard," then i think A-sets would drastically change because we all know that while they're designed for "novice teams/players," probably more tha half the teams that play on them are certainly not novice.
We're going to have to do this if NAQT wants to seriously respond to criticisms like Charlie's (about difficulty cliffs, posted above Tuesday morning). Even if we weren't receiving feedback like this from tournament hosts and prospective writers, it would be important to NAQT to remove or reduce tossups like this that are too hard: because having lots of dead tossups is bad quizbowl, and sets that are more accessible to new teams will encourage more new teams to play more quizbowl.

Finally: if more than 50% of novice college players are unable to convert "For 10 points--name this Swedish author of ~Miss Julie~," I have no hesitation in saying "this answer is too hard for an easy high school tournament."
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by master15625 »

I was just wondering.

Was there a slip in having three pop culture questions in one packet for IS #85 Packet 11? Because that is just extremely odd.

Hopefully that will not happen again.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Joe Romersa
Rikku
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:20 am
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Joe Romersa »

master15625 wrote:I was just wondering.

Was there a slip in having three pop culture questions in one packet for IS #85 Packet 11? Because that is just extremely odd.

Hopefully that will not happen again.
No wonder i scored more than the rest of my team that round.
Alex Wang
Arcadia High '10
UCLA '14 or so

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

master15625 wrote:I was just wondering.

Was there a slip in having three pop culture questions in one packet for IS #85 Packet 11? Because that is just extremely odd.

Hopefully that will not happen again.
Sorry, I didn't see this when you first posted it.

It looks like what happened here was that round 11's "general knowledge" question:
IS #85 wrote:This company plans to sell a cheeseburger of aged Kobe beef, foie gras, and aged blue cheese at a London outlet for 85 pounds. It has refused to pay Florida migrant workers an extra penny per pound of picked tomatoes, leading to protests outside its Miami headquarters. They ran (*) 11,550 restaurants worldwide in 2008, though the Australian ones are called "Hungry Jack's." For 10 points--name this home of the Whopper.
was miscategorized; it should have been filed under pop culture instead. Thus, extra pop culture tossup.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

how dare you not reward my deep knowledge of columbia missouri being home to the world's largest indoor burger king playground
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

worldrallyblue
Kimahri
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Los Angeles CA

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by worldrallyblue »

master15625 wrote:I was just wondering.

Was there a slip in having three pop culture questions in one packet for IS #85 Packet 11? Because that is just extremely odd.

Hopefully that will not happen again.
Also, I think in IS #85 there was also a packet with about 4 ostensibly Geography questions, but I'm not sure how many of them were under some other category like Current Events.
Eddie
Arcadia High '10, California

User avatar
dxdtdemon
Rikku
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: Beavercreek, OH

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by dxdtdemon »

Would it be possible to post the mitzvah tossup from IS-85, round 13? I think it defined what a mitzvah was in power.
Jonathan Graham
Beavercreek HS 1999-2003, Ohio State 2003-2007, Wright State (possibly playing)2012-2015
moderator/scorekeeper at some tournaments in Ohio, and sometimes elsewhere
"Ohio has a somewhat fractured quizbowl circuit, with a few small pockets of intense competition (like in Mahoning County) and with the rest scattered around the state."-Chris Chiego

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

quantumfootball wrote:Would it be possible to post the mitzvah tossup from IS-85, round 13? I think it defined what a mitzvah was in power.
IS #85, round 13 wrote:This term formally refers to 365 proscriptions, 248 obligations, and seven rituals that include washing one's hands, reciting blessings, and preparing lights before Shabbat. More generically it can describe any altruistic act, and rabbis are divided about whether it's worth learning the purpose of each one. (*) For 10 points--give this Hebrew word that also names a coming of age ritual when it follows "bat" or "bar."
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

worldrallyblue wrote:Also, I think in IS #85 there was also a packet with about 4 ostensibly Geography questions, but I'm not sure how many of them were under some other category like Current Events.
Not sure if you mean tossups + bonuses or just tossups; every packet in IS #85 had 1/2, 2/1, or 2/2 geography.

A quick look at the current events didn't find anything that was obviously stealth geography (although a fair number of our CE questions about places will add a geography clue to the giveaway).
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Stained Diviner
Auron
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Stained Diviner »

This is a minor point, but there is not much of a difference between mitzvah and commandment. Three of those clues would point towards Commandment as much as or more than Mitzvah. This question is technically correct once rituals are mentioned because rituals are not commandments, but there was a similar question late in the 2006-07 season which caused both my A Team and B Team to neg with Commandment when the only answer given was Mitzvah.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
pray for elves
Auron
Posts: 1048
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: 20001

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by pray for elves »

Shcool wrote:This is a minor point, but there is not much of a difference between mitzvah and commandment. Three of those clues would point towards Commandment as much as or more than Mitzvah. This question is technically correct once rituals are mentioned because rituals are not commandments, but there was a similar question late in the 2006-07 season which caused both my A Team and B Team to neg with Commandment when the only answer given was Mitzvah.
As "mitzvah" directly means "commandment" in Hebrew, the clues are obviously pointing towards both, and the lack of an alternate answer (with a note to accept "commandment" until "Hebrew word") is a clear mistake.
Evan
Georgetown Law Alum, Brandeis Alum, Oak Ridge High Alum
Ex-PACE, Ex-ACF

jonah
Auron
Posts: 2332
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by jonah »

Shcool wrote:This is a minor point, but there is not much of a difference between mitzvah and commandment. Three of those clues would point towards Commandment as much as or more than Mitzvah. This question is technically correct once rituals are mentioned because rituals are not commandments, but there was a similar question late in the 2006-07 season which caused both my A Team and B Team to neg with Commandment when the only answer given was Mitzvah.
The 2006-07 question was at Culver's Midwest Championship, by the way, in case anyone wants to look it up. I think it was one of that year's SCT sets; I'm not sure whether it was DI or DII.

I have no idea what the "seven rituals" clue is about. There are traditionally 613 commandments (365+248=613), though enumerations of them vary. The figures given in the question add up to 620, and as I'm about to explain, the commandments include substantially more than seven ritual acts.

Reinstein, I don't know what you mean by "rituals are not commandments"; taking Maimonides' list of them, of the first 20, numbers 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 are all rituals, and a couple more could reasonably be taken as such. (I'm defining "ritual" as "taking a specific, rather than a general, action", which is basically equivalent to the relevant OED definition.)

The question itself is somewhat poorly formulated; it's almost like a common link, because the word "mitzvah" is defined in three different contexts: its actual meaning (commandment), its colloquial meaning (good deed), and its use in the name of an observance (a phrase in which it means "commandment" again). Between "good deed" and "bar mitzvah", the question goes back to a clue about the literal meaning again.

edit: words
Last edited by jonah on Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5624
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Important Bird Area »

jonah wrote:The 2006-07 question was at Culver's Midwest Championship was using, by the way, in case anyone wants to look it up.
The 2007 Midwest Championship actually used IS #66.
IS #66 round 9 wrote:Their original number equals the Hebrew numerical value of the word "Torah" plus two, for the two that came directly from God. That number, 613, includes 248 positive and 365 negative ones. This term also applies to any good (*) deed expressing God's will. For 10 points--give this term for Jewish commandments, which also appears as the second word in the names of the ceremonies bringing Jewish children to adulthood.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1712
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by at your pleasure »

e question itself is somewhat poorly formulated; it's almost like a common link, because the word "mitzvah" is defined in three different contexts: its actual meaning (commandment), its colloquial meaning (good deed), and its use in the name of an observance (a phrase in which it means "commandment" again).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the questions is even more problematic when you consider that the distinction between "commandment" and "good deed" is basically nonexistent in Jewish law. Also, looking at the one from IS 66, I don't think numerological clues are terribly useful.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

jonah
Auron
Posts: 2332
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by jonah »

Anti-Climacus wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but the questions is even more problematic when you consider that the distinction between "commandment" and "good deed" is basically nonexistent in Jewish law.
I'm not sure what you mean there. If they were essentially the same thing, the issue would probably be less of a problem because the two meanings of the word in question would basically be one meaning. But the "good deed" sense of the word "mitzvah" is, in my understanding, specifically (and confusingly) good deeds beyond actions that are required, i.e., commanded.
Anti-Climacus wrote:Also, looking at the one from IS 66, I don't think numerological clues are terribly useful.
I would disagree with this. G'matria (Hebrew numerology) is a fairly significant part of Jewish scholarship.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Yeah, but what people playing D2 sectionals on timed matches are going to ahve enough time to figure it out if they even have a clue what that stuff means in the first place?
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

jonah
Auron
Posts: 2332
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by jonah »

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:Yeah, but what people playing D2 sectionals on timed matches are going to ahve enough time to figure it out if they even have a clue what that stuff means in the first place?
I'm not envisioning them adding up the numbers, I'm envisioning people having previously heard of that explanation for the number. I don't know who originally noted it, but it's cited here and I'm pretty sure I remember seeing it in Telushkin's Jewish Literacy also.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

My whole point is that it's not like 50% of the field at those tournaments are Jewish and would have had any reason to get exposed to that stuff.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

jonah
Auron
Posts: 2332
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by jonah »

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:My whole point is that it's not like 50% of the field at those tournaments are Jewish and would have had any reason to get exposed to that stuff.
I don't follow. Are you saying that it isn't the case that 50% of the tournament knows the lead-in? Because I think it's supposed to be that way.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

No dude, I'm saying that a minority of players at the high school level who would have been playing this set are Jewish, and while it may not quite accurately reflect American demographics, I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 10% actually playing this set. That combined with the fact that there are probably a good number of those Jews who really don't practice a whole lot and never got into numerology and the general practice of quizbowlers not remembering something they may have heard a while ago means that probably nowhere near enough people would be buzzing in the first 2.5 sentences to justify using it.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Stained Diviner
Auron
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Stained Diviner »

You don't have to figure anything out. A significant minority of quizbowlers knows that there are 613 Jewish commandments and can reflex buzz on it. There may also be another significant minority that knows about how many there are and can use the other clues (some are positive and some are negative) to figure it out. I don't remember exactly where my teams negged on it, but I believe the numerology was helpful (in figuring out what should have been accepted but harmful in terms of points).

When I was a kid, our rabbi talked about numerology in every single sermon he gave. Like all religions, Judaism is pretty weird.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Whenever I went to (reform) synagogue with my father I never really heard anything about numerology ever mentioned. I know I didn't have as extensive an upbringing in Judaism as you, but that's kind of my argument. Most of the Jews I've met in quizbowl are not really practicing and/or went to a liberal temple that didn't really care about that stuff like my family does. While I acknowledge that there are plenty who are devout out there playing, I still think this is a small enough fraction of the Jewish population in quizbowl, which is already a small minority. i think if you do a survey of high school age jews these days a huge bunch of them will admit they don't really take it that seriously, and probably haven't spent enough time researching numerology to actually pull that stuff, and in any case, it should be taking up more like 1 line of the question, not over 2 or whatever it is.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1712
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by at your pleasure »

I'll have to agree with Jeremy here- how much your rabbi talks about numerology really depends on how mystical his or her bent is. I don't think I've ever heard any of the rabbis at my reform synogoge talk about numerology. Actually, now that I take a second look at the question, I managed to confuse the leadin with the " 248 positive and 365 negative" clue, then proceeded to misuse the term "numerology". The latter is still not the greatest clue. Prehaps something about how lots of them are no longer practiced due to the destruction of the second temple would be better.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

User avatar
cvdwightw
Auron
Posts: 3446
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Southern CA
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by cvdwightw »

Henry Gorman wrote:The thing is, Charlie, there really are a lot of Jews in Quizbowl-- so we need to reward the more knowledgeable Jews over the less knowledgeable ones.
Dwight Wynne
socalquizbowl.org
UC Irvine 2008-2013; UCLA 2004-2007; Capistrano Valley High School 2000-2003

"It's a competition, but it's not a sport. On a scale, if football is a 10, then rowing would be a two. One would be Quiz Bowl." --Matt Birk on rowing, SI On Campus, 10/21/03

"If you were my teammate, I would have tossed your ass out the door so fast you'd be emitting Cerenkov radiation, but I'm not classy like Dwight." --Jerry

User avatar
Stained Diviner
Auron
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Stained Diviner »

I think we may be talking past each other here.

Charlie's point is that the numbers should take up one line rather than two, which is correct.

Jonah's point and mine is that the numbers point towards commandments rather than mitzvahs, which is a separate point that is also correct.

The bigger problem is that somebody tried writing a tossup on the word mitzvah, which is not good material to work with other than the giveaway. What should have been attempted instead is writing a tossup on commandments, with mitzvah as an alternative answer and/or clue, and with at most one line of numerology.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

Steve Watchorn
Lulu
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:55 pm
Location: Nashua, NH
Contact:

Re: 2008-2009 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Post by Steve Watchorn »

So, 4 to 5 years after writing the questions, 1-3 years after they were used, and nearly a full month after the preceding discussion, I slink in the back door to claim responsibility for both the misleading "De Motu" Torricelli question and the IS 66 mitzvah question (actually, I just got back onto the board after a relatively long absence and saw this thread for the first time). My apologies for the misleading, confusing, or inaccurate parts of both. I should have known I was stepping in it going so far outside my knowledge base in writing the mitzvah question in the first place, as neither I nor anyone I regularly know is Jewish to the point of talking to me about the subject, so that question was entirely born of my interest in hearing the word "mitzvah" in a context where it was not following "bar" or "bat." It was completely off of research, which did mention that it meant commandment (though not that that term is used either interchangeably with, or more often or more accurately than, mitzvah), and also the looseness or tightness of the definition (which I intended to indicate in the question). I also thought the numerology ended with the sum clue, and it seemed from the (limited) amount I read that the following clues about the 613, et. al., were more the kind of facts someone would be taught about them. Anyway, I clearly stepped into a more complicated topic than I realized, and my apologies for the negs that came from my inadequate writing and research on both questions.
Steve Watchorn
University of Michigan CBI Team 1991
University of Wisconsin - Madison Quiz Bowl 1995-2001
NAQT contributor (and often available for others as well)

Locked