Illinois '09-'10

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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by mlaird » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:49 pm

I think a big difficulty is in balancing the fact that some F/S people might want to be competitive, and some might just be there to have a place to be. While it is true that a F/S circuit keeps normally non-interested people around longer, it is also true that these people will likely disappear once they become Juniors. Back when I coached at Loyola I saw this happen a lot, even to kids who I started on my F/S squads. What some people might be missing here is that the problem some people have is with "self-esteem" and it getting "hurt" by having to play Varsity-level players (who happen to be Freshmen or Sophomores) at F/S events. No one is advocating that Freshmen and Sophomores should be relegated to the F/S circuit alone.

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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by JackGlerum » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:56 pm

Woody Paige wrote:What coach, besides those who wrote the Mid Suburban League code, would object to freshmen and sophomores playing varsity AND F/S?
Dresden The Moderator wrote:"Moving to varsity is a one-way street"...many coaches feel that once a player is good enough to move up to the big leagues, playing them in the f/s circuit is unfair.
The opposing coaches shouldn't be complaining, but the team with the "phenom" should be responsible and keep the kid on varsity. By playing them both ways, they engage in trophy-whoring of the worst kind. Of course, if the "phenom" is playing on the varsity C team, or isn't actually a "phenom" at all, then it isn't an issue--his presence won't automatically make his school's F/S team dominate.

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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:36 pm

Maybe one alternative is to have a frosh/soph circuit with the same level diffuculty questions as varsity. It would help bridge the gap, introduce them to the canon, give them the desire to study, and even keep it competitive (even if conversion is rather low) because they'd be playing against other f/s teams.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Jane Fairfax » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:42 pm

JackGlerum wrote:
Woody Paige wrote:What coach, besides those who wrote the Mid Suburban League code, would object to freshmen and sophomores playing varsity AND F/S?
Dresden The Moderator wrote:"Moving to varsity is a one-way street"...many coaches feel that once a player is good enough to move up to the big leagues, playing them in the f/s circuit is unfair.
The opposing coaches shouldn't be complaining, but the team with the "phenom" should be responsible and keep the kid on varsity. By playing them both ways, they engage in trophy-whoring of the worst kind. Of course, if the "phenom" is playing on the varsity C team, or isn't actually a "phenom" at all, then it isn't an issue--his presence won't automatically make his school's F/S team dominate.
Yes. I don't know of anybody who has ever really cared when a freshman or sophomore who plays varsity B or C but isn't really at a level above F/S plays in F/S tournaments. Last year, really only two freshmen and sophomores were at that "phenom" level. Andrew Deveau didn't play frosh-soph, but Zach Blumenfeld did. Stevenson pretty much owned the circuit last year, basically because of Zach, and the twice I played him it was clear he wasn't really challenged that much. Not saying that they were legitimately trophy-whoring, but it just doesn't seem right that a bona fide 1st team all stater is playing F/S. Looking back at the games Stevenson played at Auburn and Loyola's F/S tourneys, only twice did Stevenson win by less than 100 points--once against us in our tourney, the other against Lisle at D&G.

This year I don't know if any F/S players are at the level that Zach and Deveau were last year.
MoCity02 wrote:Maybe one alternative is to have a frosh/soph circuit with the same level diffuculty questions as varsity. It would help bridge the gap, introduce them to the canon, give them the desire to study, and even keep it competitive (even if conversion is rather low) because they'd be playing against other f/s teams.
This would probably bring up scores similar to one of those Kickoff sites last year...I forget which one, but the bonus conversion was just disgustingly low.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by drose4prez » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:31 pm

First post on these forums. I am Kevin from Stevenson and have been reading the board for a while but am finally deciding to post.
Here's a preview for Stevenson this year.
Zach-Obviously our best player and 1st team all stater. He pretty much gets every geography question, and is very strong in history and some science. He also can get some points in Music, and can answer most Lit questions by the giveaway. He will be especially useful in NAQT since it has an excess of questions on his best categories.
Julia-Great Lit and Fine arts player. She can also get some questions in Bio and US history, and will be important in determining how far we can go this year.
Mark-His biggest strength is science. He shows interest in learning about all types of science, although not necessarily for quizbowl purposes. I'm not sure how he'll adapt to varsity level questions, but if he can get to the point where he can get us maybe 15 PPB on science bonuses, I think we'll be very successful.
Kevin-My biggest strengths are the humanities. I've read enough packets and studied enough lit that I can get most questions before the FTP. I'm also decent in fine arts, which will hopefully help us since we lost a lot of fine arts when Jonathon graduated. I've also read a couple of mythology books, so I can get some points in that category.

Those would most likely be our 4 in tournaments where we start 4. For IHSA, we'd probably play David, a math specialist, since there's a lot of math comp in the State series.
I will be trying to convince our coach to take us to both Nationals this year. I know Stevenson went to PACE NSC in 2001, so I'm pretty sure he'll be ok with it. I'd rather go to PACE than HSNCT, but since HSNCT is so close we'd probably go to that if we had to choose one. Our coach retired from teaching this year, so hopefully he will have more time to travel to better tournaments. I know we previously haven't gone to Auburn's tournaments in the past because it's far away, but our F/S coach took us to their F/S tourney last year, so hopefully we'll be able to make it out there for whatever tourneys they are hosting.

In terms of goals for the season, I think we'll be a major player in IHSA state. I think how we'd do at either of the nationals depends on how much we study. If we continue to improve, I'd like to go over .500 at NSC. NSC occurs during our graduation this year, but Julia is the only starter that would have to miss it, so we should still be able to compete.

I'm really looking forward to the season this year.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by rjaguar3 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:40 pm

Jane Fairfax wrote:
JackGlerum wrote:Maybe one alternative is to have a frosh/soph circuit with the same level diffuculty questions as varsity. It would help bridge the gap, introduce them to the canon, give them the desire to study, and even keep it competitive (even if conversion is rather low) because they'd be playing against other f/s teams.
This would probably bring up scores similar to one of those Kickoff sites last year...I forget which one, but the bonus conversion was just disgustingly low.
For the past few years, the DVC has used NAQT questions for Varsity and Questions Galore for Frosh/Soph, on the premise that frosh/soph students can't even get NAQT giveaways (or so says the Wheaton North coach).
Greg (Vanderbilt 2012, Wheaton North 2008)

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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by jonah » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:43 pm

rjaguar3 wrote:
Jane Fairfax wrote:
JackGlerum wrote:Maybe one alternative is to have a frosh/soph circuit with the same level diffuculty questions as varsity. It would help bridge the gap, introduce them to the canon, give them the desire to study, and even keep it competitive (even if conversion is rather low) because they'd be playing against other f/s teams.
This would probably bring up scores similar to one of those Kickoff sites last year...I forget which one, but the bonus conversion was just disgustingly low.
For the past few years, the DVC has used NAQT questions for Varsity and Questions Galore for Frosh/Soph, on the premise that frosh/soph students can't even get NAQT giveaways (or so says the Wheaton North coach).
The same is done by the CSL; I don't know if the reasoning is the same.

edit: Wait, no, CSL frosh/soph uses Bryce Avery. Same difference.
Last edited by jonah on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by JackGlerum » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:47 pm

Greg quoted Nolan as me accidentally... just wanna clear that up.

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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Kouign Amann » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:32 am

drose4prez wrote: I will be trying to convince our coach to take us to both Nationals this year. I know Stevenson went to PACE NSC in 2001, so I'm pretty sure he'll be ok with it. I'd rather go to PACE than HSNCT, but since HSNCT is so close we'd probably go to that if we had to choose one. Our coach retired from teaching this year, so hopefully he will have more time to travel to better tournaments.
Hello Kevin, and welcome.

I had the pleasure of meeting Zach this past week, and we talked, no surprise, about quizbowl for a while. I brought up the subject of nationals, and he seemed quite amenable to the idea of attending at least one. However, he seemed unsure of his teammates' commitment and worried that they might not want to attend as well. I realize that sometimes there is communication breakdown among teammates: they might not share all their plans or goals for the team with each other, for a variety of reasons. This has happened to me in the past. If this is the case, and if what we've got here is a failure to communicate, I would suggest talking with Zach about the subject and teaming up with him to present the ideas to your teammates and coach. Two supporters of an idea are, of course, better than one, and he seemed very interested in competing at the national level. Together, hopefully, you might be able to realize a common goal you might not realize you have in common. It is always good to see more high-quality teams at nationals, and you guys are definitely a high-quality team.

Good luck to you and your team in the coming year.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by drose4prez » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:44 am

Prof.Whoopie wrote:
drose4prez wrote: I will be trying to convince our coach to take us to both Nationals this year. I know Stevenson went to PACE NSC in 2001, so I'm pretty sure he'll be ok with it. I'd rather go to PACE than HSNCT, but since HSNCT is so close we'd probably go to that if we had to choose one. Our coach retired from teaching this year, so hopefully he will have more time to travel to better tournaments.
Hello Kevin, and welcome.

I had the pleasure of meeting Zach this past week, and we talked, no surprise, about quizbowl for a while. I brought up the subject of nationals, and he seemed quite amenable to the idea of attending at least one. However, he seemed unsure of his teammates' commitment and worried that they might not want to attend as well. I realize that sometimes there is communication breakdown among teammates: they might not share all their plans or goals for the team with each other, for a variety of reasons. This has happened to me in the past. If this is the case, and if what we've got here is a failure to communicate, I would suggest talking with Zach about the subject and teaming up with him to present the ideas to your teammates and coach. Two supporters of an idea are, of course, better than one, and he seemed very interested in competing at the national level. Together, hopefully, you might be able to realize a common goal you might not realize you have in common. It is always good to see more high-quality teams at nationals, and you guys are definitely a high-quality team.

Good luck to you and your team in the coming year.


Zach and I have talked about nationals. The main concern has been whether it overlaps with our other commitments. Both he and I have sports(Water Polo and Tennis, respectively) that have state titles that usually overlap with Nationals. This year the NSC is after both of those sports' seasons end, so hopefully that won't be an issue. I'm confident that there will be enough support from our team to go to Nationals, but I don't know about the other stuff that's involved(costs, travel, etc.).
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Kouign Amann » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:56 am

drose4prez wrote:Zach and I have talked about nationals.
Good, good. I just wanted to make sure that the communication was there.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Deviant Insider » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:09 pm

Team Illinois is back. IHSSBCA will sponsor a team at HSAPQ NASAT.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dan-Don » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:16 pm

Shcool wrote:Team Illinois is back. IHSSBCA will sponsor a team at HSAPQ NASAT.
Does this mean grants are gone?
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by David Riley » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:58 pm

No, we will still award grants. :smile:
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:58 am

Shcool wrote:Team Illinois is back. IHSSBCA will sponsor a team at HSAPQ NASAT.
after all of the protests last year? :shock:
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by David Riley » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:15 am

The protest were mainly about costs and tournament format. That shouldn't be a problem with this tournament.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by at your pleasure » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:19 am

NASAT is a different tournament than PAC and will almost certainly be better. The announcement is here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7719
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:24 pm

Ah, I misread. I thought for certain it said NTAE/PAC/any other name for it. Well then, :party:
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:58 pm

water polo
In Rockford, our sports commitments include throwing rocks at each other and playing stickball... :wink:


As far as the F/S discussion goes, I think we need to define the role it plays. If you ask me, fresh-soph is simply a warmup to higher levels of competition. That is, it's a watered down version of varsity play, NOT a different game altogether. But as far as playing kids across levels, I would say that asking whether or not the player is a consistent varsity starter is an adequate litmus test. There's really not much prestige to be gained in the F/S circuit, and the whole point of playing kids in the F/S level is to help them develop. You end up hurting your own team when you have a star taking all the questions, and the up-and-comers lose interest because they feel irrelevant. As far as F/S beasts who can't handle varsity, I guess that's just a monkey we have to deal with. Consider this: how do you think fans, coaches, and players would react if the starting shooting guard on your varsity basketball team also played for the F/S or JV squad? I can't imagine how that could end well. (I'm imagining LeBron James the high school sophomore playing JV basketball...).

If your player is good enough to play on the highest level on your team, then there's no point in using that player in the minor leagues. Develop your in-betweeners on auxiliary teams. In hindsight, I wish I would have played more varsity B in my early years, though I wasn't quite dominating in the sophomore year, and definitely not in my freshman year. Early exposure is the best way to develop players, in my opinion. If you're concerned about the self-esteem issue of getting mauled over and over again, then I'd tell you that a player who wants to get good and rise to the top will be able to deal with it, knowing that one day, he/she could be the one doing the mauling.

[Edit: clarity]
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by David Riley » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:41 pm

From the archives:

Between roughly 1995-1999, and allowing for non-pyramidal but usually good academic questions, we had a great f/s circuit in the Chicago suburbs....teams such as Evanston, Fremd, Loyola, New Trier, Stevenson, Wheaton North, etc., even St. Patrick had highly competitive teams.

Then, around 2000, the "self-esteem" gurus as I call them started to coach Scholastic Bowl and questions at such tournaments got worse and worse. As a result, many coaches now DO see f/s as a separate, "funn" entity rather than a training/proving ground for varsity.

As far as not playing frosh or soph varsity starters on frosh/soph, I'm not sure how I feel about this.....I understand Zahed's points (though Siva played on both teams, and Greg Gauthier played on both teams at Wheaton North), but another side to this issue is to have such players get team experiennce with the people that they will have as teammates during their senior (and perhaps their junior) year(s). Perhaps a suitable compromise would be to put such teams in a tougher bracket at tournaments.

As I've said before, I see our frosh/soph circuit dying out. IMNSHO, there are only two f/s tournaments that use good questions (I'm not counting the novice tournaments, as beginning juniors and seniors may play on those if they are not on a school's A team). Two other f/s tournaments will attempt to use better questions than in the past, and this is laudable but I'm a little skeptical.

Last year, I threw my f/s to the lions. Two of them, Marcel and Nolan, advanced to become varsity starters this year, and the others don't appear to be any the worse for wear. I hosted a f/s tournament for ten years, and then discontinued it because I was tired of the whining and the constant demands for "easier" questions (read: pop culture pablum). Matt Laird resurrected it when he was my f/s coach, and this will be our fourtth year for that tournament, but I have serious doubts as to whether we will host it next year. Truth be told, I would rather host or attend another varsity tournament and give my students a better experience.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Jane Fairfax » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 pm

David Riley wrote:From the archives:

Between roughly 1995-1999, and allowing for non-pyramidal but usually good academic questions, we had a great f/s circuit in the Chicago suburbs....teams such as Evanston, Fremd, Loyola, New Trier, Stevenson, Wheaton North, etc., even St. Patrick had highly competitive teams.

Then, around 2000, the "self-esteem" gurus as I call them started to coach Scholastic Bowl and questions at such tournaments got worse and worse. As a result, many coaches now DO see f/s as a separate, "funn" entity rather than a training/proving ground for varsity.

As far as not playing frosh or soph varsity starters on frosh/soph, I'm not sure how I feel about this.....I understand Zahed's points (though Siva played on both teams, and Greg Gauthier played on both teams at Wheaton North), but another side to this issue is to have such players get team experiennce with the people that they will have as teammates during their senior (and perhaps their junior) year(s). Perhaps a suitable compromise would be to put such teams in a tougher bracket at tournaments.

As I've said before, I see our frosh/soph circuit dying out. IMNSHO, there are only two f/s tournaments that use good questions (I'm not counting the novice tournaments, as beginning juniors and seniors may play on those if they are not on a school's A team). Two other f/s tournaments will attempt to use better questions than in the past, and this is laudable but I'm a little skeptical.

Last year, I threw my f/s to the lions. Two of them, Marcel and Nolan, advanced to become varsity starters this year, and the others don't appear to be any the worse for wear. I hosted a f/s tournament for ten years, and then discontinued it because I as tired of the whining an the constant demands for "easier" questions (read: pop culture pablum). Matt Laird resurrected it when he was my f/s coach, and this will be our fourtth year for that tournament, but I have serious douts as to whether we will host it next year. Truth be told, I would rather host or attend another varsity tournament and give my students a better experience.
I think the overall F/S circuit should last pretty long, though its connection with "good quizbowl" will probably fade away. What I mean is that the circuit will still be there, in crappy QG tournaments which a lot of the teams in Illinois will still go to, even if the Auburns, Loyolas etc. deny that.

The points been made before that the best teams always bring young players to varsity events, and that's what gives them the ability to reload year after year. Auburn and Loyola, two of the state's strongest programs, brought B and sometimes C teams to nearly every tournament last year, and that's why they still have good programs. LloyBid and Marcel and Nolan most likely wouldn't have been as prepared for the highest level of varsity competition if we hadn't been stuck in as low teams first. Now we're all fairly decent players. Certainly much better than we would have been if we had only played knights challenge, davey and goliath, and a couple one-line tournaments.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:09 am

David Riley basically wrote:I understand what you're saying, but teamwork is important to develop.
To this, I'd say I'd much rather have that player's future teammates move up for some varsity work, as opposed to the phenom playing down. Otherwise the rapport can be developed in practice scrimmages.

That being said, I'm not willing to give team chemistry as much importance as some others might. Yeah, it's important that you know your teammates and there's some semblance camaraderie, but aside from communication during bonuses and staying out of territory in which you may not have the best knowledge, there aren't a whole lot of team-centered skills that need to be learned. And it doesn't take that much work to get those things in order. Maybe I'm being naive because I'm used to quick acclimation to new personnel, but if I really wanted my players (speaking now, as a theoretical coach) to develop a sense of teamwork, I'd probably have them build a birdhouse together, or I'd split my team up for some pick-up water polo.

[Edit: Typos!]
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Jane Fairfax » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:54 pm

Oliver Ellsworth wrote:
David Riley basically wrote:I understand what you're saying, but teamwork is important to develop.
To this, I'd say I'd much rather have that player's future teammates move up for some varsity work, as opposed to the phenom playing down. Otherwise the rapport can be developed in practice scrimmages.

That being said, I'm not willing to give team chemistry as much importance as some others might. Yeah, it's important that you know your teammates and there's some semblance camaraderie, but aside from communication during bonuses and staying out of territory in which you may not have the best knowledge, there aren't a whole lot of team-centered skills that need to be learned. And it doesn't take that much work to get those things in order. Maybe I'm being naive because I'm used to quick acclimation to new personnel, but if I really wanted my players (speaking now, as a theoretical coach) to develop a sense of teamwork, I'd probably have them build a birdhouse together, or I'd split my team up for some pick-up water polo.

[Edit: Typos!]
Yeah, I don't think you actually need tons of gameplay to get to know your team well enough to have smooth games. Next year I'll play lots of games with people I haven't actually played with in real games (Hoffman maybe a couple conference games, Abid less than 15 games, Cooper maybe 25), but I don't think the team will be any less of a "team" than it was last year.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:19 pm

Just wanted to direct everybody over to the Septemberist invite: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8270

The official invitation won't be going out until this week, but you can get a jump start on registration by sending me an email (curiouscamper@aol.com) or making a post on the Septemberist thread with:

-number of teams you're bringing
-numbers of buzzer systems you're bringing
-roster (if you know already, if not let me know ASAP)

You don't worry about payment yet, just have a check in the mail by the 17th (again, more info in the Septemberist thread)
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by jonah » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:41 pm

Here's my ballot for the IHSSBCA class AA preseason poll:
  1. St. Ignatius
  2. Auburn
  3. Loyola
  4. St. Viator
  5. Stevenson
  6. Buffalo Grove
  7. Carbondale
  8. Naperville Central
  9. Wheaton-Warrenville South
  10. New Trier
I think the first three are basically interchangeable at this point. St. Ignatius's ranking is with the assumption they'll go to a bunch of good tournaments, which I expect. Stevenson's ranking could improve if they go to a lot of good tournaments. I don't know much about WWS. Critiques?
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:23 pm

Is New Trier expected to fall back that much?

Also, whatever happened to Wheaton North? They owned the state for pretty much my entire high school tenure.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by jonah » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:35 pm

Cowboy Bob Orton wrote:Is New Trier expected to fall back that much?
Yeah. Last year, their lineup was Ben, Steve, ???, and ???, with an additional ??? for five-person teams. Ben's gone, and while Steve's decent, he can't carry the team to anything like what they were last year. He also has other major commitments that, unless he shuffles his priorities more than I expect, will prevent him from investing the effort necessary to be dominant.
Cowboy Bob Orton wrote:Also, whatever happened to Wheaton North?
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dan-Don » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:28 pm

jonah wrote:Here's my ballot for the IHSSBCA class AA preseason poll:
  1. St. Ignatius
  2. Auburn
  3. Loyola
  4. St. Viator
  5. Stevenson
  6. Buffalo Grove
  7. Carbondale
  8. Naperville Central
  9. Wheaton-Warrenville South
  10. New Trier
I think the first three are basically interchangeable at this point. St. Ignatius's ranking is with the assumption they'll go to a bunch of good tournaments, which I expect. Stevenson's ranking could improve if they go to a lot of good tournaments. I don't know much about WWS. Critiques?
Our ranking might be a little too generous. I honestly don't know how we'll hold up against some of the teams you ranked below us (esp. Stevenson, but also BG and C-Dale)
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:49 pm

jonah wrote:Here's my ballot for the IHSSBCA class AA preseason poll:
  1. St. Ignatius
  2. Auburn
  3. Loyola
  4. St. Viator
  5. Stevenson
  6. Buffalo Grove
  7. Carbondale
  8. Naperville Central
  9. Wheaton-Warrenville South
  10. New Trier
I think the first three are basically interchangeable at this point. St. Ignatius's ranking is with the assumption they'll go to a bunch of good tournaments, which I expect. Stevenson's ranking could improve if they go to a lot of good tournaments. I don't know much about WWS. Critiques?

I understand why you left off Fremd and seeded Stevenson so low, but I do not agree with it. When doing a preseason poll, one should assume that all the schools will play good quizbowl. If they do not, then I would drop them, but not ranking a team based on speculation of what tournaments they will play seems absurd, even if your speculation is probably correct.

Ranking Stevenson ahead of Viator is wrong. IMHO, Stevenson was a better team than St. Viator last season. Unlike Viator, they return more than half of their scoring. They dominated the F/S circuit last year, and those active on that circuit have said that they were probably the best team without Zach. If I were voting, they would be my #1 team, and I think that ranking them #5 is wrong.

Fremd should also be seeded. Arjun knows a ton of science and math, and he will be one of the top 6 lit players in state next year. Wither way, I do not think that anybody can argue effectively that this is not one of the best 10 ten teams in state, quizbowl preferences aside.

WWS is a team that deserves ranking. We established that they are returning Quinn,, who put up good stats at HSNCT. They also had a very good B Team. Their F/S captain was good at history, and should be a solid contributor. Considering how weak the state is this year, they deserve to be ranked.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Edward Elric » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:52 pm

Cowboy Bob Orton wrote: Also, whatever happened to Wheaton North? They owned the state for pretty much my entire high school tenure.
Um.. good question. To start we have no "gifted kids" in our program i.e Gauthiers. Mrs. Martin retired and the F/S coach of 15 years Ms. Kidd is set to retire. We are running out of people interested in playing because its not looked at as fun. When I left last year, two other members of my team also decided to quit adn they were both starters. So Yeah we kinda fell off the face of the earth. :cry:
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Edward Elric » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:55 pm

jonah wrote:Here's my ballot for the IHSSBCA class AA preseason poll:
  1. St. Ignatius
  2. Auburn
  3. Loyola
  4. St. Viator
  5. Stevenson
  6. Buffalo Grove
  7. Carbondale
  8. Naperville Central
  9. Wheaton-Warrenville South
  10. New Trier
I think the first three are basically interchangeable at this point. St. Ignatius's ranking is with the assumption they'll go to a bunch of good tournaments, which I expect. Stevenson's ranking could improve if they go to a lot of good tournaments. I don't know much about WWS. Critiques?
I didn't realize that St. Ignatius was that good. Are they returning all their starters?
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by jonah » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:59 pm

rockinzeppelin wrote:
jonah wrote:Here's my ballot for the IHSSBCA class AA preseason poll:
  1. St. Ignatius
  2. Auburn
  3. Loyola
  4. St. Viator
  5. Stevenson
  6. Buffalo Grove
  7. Carbondale
  8. Naperville Central
  9. Wheaton-Warrenville South
  10. New Trier
I think the first three are basically interchangeable at this point. St. Ignatius's ranking is with the assumption they'll go to a bunch of good tournaments, which I expect. Stevenson's ranking could improve if they go to a lot of good tournaments. I don't know much about WWS. Critiques?
I didn't realize that St. Ignatius was that good. Are they returning all their starters?
I have no idea, but they're getting noted superpower Andrew Deveau.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dan-Don » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:02 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote:Ranking Stevenson ahead of Viator is wrong. IMHO, Stevenson was a better team than St. Viator last season. Unlike Viator, they return more than half of their scoring. They dominated the F/S circuit last year, and those active on that circuit have said that they were probably the best team without Zach. If I were voting, they would be my #1 team, and I think that ranking them #5 is wrong.

Fremd should also be seeded. Arjun knows a ton of science and math, and he will be one of the top 6 lit players in state next year. Wither way, I do not think that anybody can argue effectively that this is not one of the best 10 ten teams in state, quizbowl preferences aside.

WWS is a team that deserves ranking. We established that they are returning Quinn,, who put up good stats at HSNCT. They also had a very good B Team. Their F/S captain was good at history, and should be a solid contributor. Considering how weak the state is this year, they deserve to be ranked.
Yeah...we were 1-1 against Zachless Stevenson last year, and lost to Zach 420-185 at Loyburn. If I had to do a ranking under the assumption that all teams with be playing good quizbowl (which I think is a good idea), it would have to be 1. Stevenson 2. Auburn 3. Ignatius 4. Loyola and then 5-9 would be BG, Fremd, C-Dale, WWS, and Viator in no particular order because I really don't know how those teams will stack up. And Naperville Central would probably be my #10 (They sent a kid to ACE camp at SEMO who did very well, but I don't remember his name.)
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Edward Elric » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:10 pm

Dan-Don wrote: And Naperville Central would probably be my #10 (They sent a kid to ACE camp at SEMO who did very well, but I don't remember his name.)
Was the kid Krystle?
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dan-Don » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:12 pm

rockinzeppelin wrote:
Dan-Don wrote: And Naperville Central would probably be my #10 (They sent a kid to ACE camp at SEMO who did very well, but I don't remember his name.)
Was the kid Krystle?
Mmm. No...come to think of it, he might have been from a different Naperville school. Lloyd or Zahed might remember.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Jane Fairfax » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:07 pm

Dan-Don wrote:
rockinzeppelin wrote:
Dan-Don wrote: And Naperville Central would probably be my #10 (They sent a kid to ACE camp at SEMO who did very well, but I don't remember his name.)
Was the kid Krystle?
Mmm. No...come to think of it, he might have been from a different Naperville school. Lloyd or Zahed might remember.
I haven't the slightest.
Dan-Don wrote:Yeah...we were 1-1 against Zachless Stevenson last year, and lost to Zach 420-185 at Loyburn. If I had to do a ranking under the assumption that all teams with be playing good quizbowl (which I think is a good idea), it would have to be 1. Stevenson 2. Auburn 3. Ignatius 4. Loyola and then 5-9 would be BG, Fremd, C-Dale, WWS, and Viator in no particular order because I really don't know how those teams will stack up. And Naperville Central would probably be my #10 (They sent a kid to ACE camp at SEMO who did very well, but I don't remember his name.)
As much as I love Dan and as hard as he works, I think ranking Stevenson below Viator, is, like has been said, a big mistake. Viator retains Dan, and that's it, for their A-team, and while they have some definite up and comers none of them really match Zach. And where Zach may weak at some humanities, Julia fills in. I'd hesitate to put Stevenson even below Loyola, who will surely make noise (not just Christian and Will, but also Marcel and Nolan), because I just can't see myself favoring them in a match against Stevenson. For me, the tentative top 4 would be 1. Stevenson 2. Auburn 3. Ignatius 4. Loyola, with rankings sure to switch around multiple times this year. While I think all four teams have the tools to beat the others, Stevenson's team is more of a copy of their team last year than any of the others, and so they are more "proven", so to speak, and the other teams' lower rankings is not a result of less talent or promise, but rather a lack of high-stage experience (Zahed, me, and the Loyola kids have never been the best players on our school's A team, and Deveau has never been on a top tier team like he is this year).
BG MSL Champs wrote:They dominated the F/S circuit last year, and those active on that circuit have said that they were probably the best team without Zach
I have to disagree here, because I believe that 1) domination on the F/S circuit means little or nothing, and 2) without Zach, I'd rank Lisle, Auburn, and Loyola as better F/S programs than Stevenson. But that's just my opinion, I never really saw the capabilities of Stevenson's F/S players when Zach wasn't playing.

Overall, Jonah's list was pretty good, with the lack of Fremd, I guess (I don't know, but everyone else says Arjun is good).

Mine would go:

1. Stevenson 2. Auburn 3. Ignatius 4. Loyola 5. Viator 6. Carbondale 7. Fremd 8. BG 9. WWS 10. New Trier

If we could stick in single A teams, I'd put Lisle between Carbondale and Fremd. Don't know enough about Latin/Litchfield\

EDIT: "tentative, definite"--OXYMORRRON
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by jonah » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:22 pm

Lots of people wrote:a bunch of very legitimate stuff
Okay. I have been handicapped by having never seen Stevenson play, except seeing Zach solo at Davey & Goliath, where neither the questions nor the competition were good enough to form much of an opinion. I mean, he dominated, but it didn't mean anything to me. In retrospect, I probably should've ranked them higher.

I agonized over whether to put Fremd or New Trier at #10. In the end, my alma mater won out, and since this poll has little meaning I don't feel bad about it. The deciding factor was the likelihood of each playing good quizbowl. New Trier will; Fremd traditionally hasn't. I have heard that Arjun has significant interest in getting to some good tournaments, and I sincerely hope he does. But if Fremd doesn't go to good events, I have no way of judging them either absolutely (because I won't see them and because performance on bad questions means little) or relatively (because they won't play much against the other mentioned teams, and again with the performance issue). I don't think it's unfair to consider the likelihood of teams playing good quizbowl when history strongly implies a particular conclusion.

If I had been able to include Class A, Lisle would definitely have made the top ten. I don't know enough about Latin and Litchfield to assess whether they would have.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:26 pm

Lloyd Sy stole my post, as with all of the meaningful information I was going to post, so I'll just do my list.

1. Auburn
2. Stevenson
3. Ignatius
4. Us
5. Viator
6. Carbondale
7. BG
8. Fremd
9. NT
10. WWS

I personally believe that the Zach show just can not overcome the balance that Auburn has. The whole balance, everybody has a subject they're really good at thing seems to work really, really well. Look at Carbondale last year, their big 3 scorers each had of of the big 3 categories (lit/fa, science, history) and they dominated because of how complementary their knowledge is. Auburn's team this year seems to have a similar thing going (LloyBid Lit/FA/random things that Bid is surpisingly good at, Zahed history, and J-Hoff sci). I'm not saying that this year's Auburn is going to be up to the standards of last year's Carbondale but I believe that balance will lead to victories over Zach.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:04 pm

Based on what I saw 3-4 years ago, never mind last year in the frosh/soph circuit, Stevenson is #1 until some other team shows me otherwise. They ran my Barrington frosh/soph out of the room in the semis of both the Fremd frosh/soph and the Davey and Goliath; The former with Zach, the latter without. 3 and 4 years ago, Daniel Wright JHS ran the table playing IESA scholastic bowl with Zach as captain, before they joined forces with the best from 5 other feeder schools.

Good luck with your seasons to all.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:15 pm

Max Moon wrote:Based on what I saw 3-4 years ago, never mind last year in the frosh/soph circuit, Stevenson is #1 until some other team shows me otherwise. They ran my Barrington frosh/soph out of the room in the semis of both the Fremd frosh/soph and the Davey and Goliath; The former with Zach, the latter without. 3 and 4 years ago, Daniel Wright JHS ran the table playing IESA scholastic bowl with Zach as captain, before they joined forces with the best from 5 other feeder schools.

Good luck with your seasons to all.

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to say this, but I really don't think IESA is a strong indicator for success at all in a player's junior year in high school. That said, Stevey is still in the top three of Illinois teams, thanks almost totally to Zach. My top three (Auburn, Ignatius, Stevenson--no order, just alphabetizing) is such because each of those teams has either a strong balance of specialists (us) or a dominating star (the other two). Loyola falls short because of Nolan and Marcel's as of yet unproven status in the varsity quizbowl arena, and Viator misses out simply because Dan-Don, while a great player, won't be able to carry a team when he's surrounded by players who are also new to the upper echelon of Illinois quizbowl. Both of those programs have bright futures if Nolan and Marcel stick to it (they'll be a top team when they're upperclassmen), and Dan can establish an ongoing tradition of good quizbowl in Viator.

It's gonna be a good year.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by drose4prez » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:45 pm

I agree with Zahed that the IESA is not a good way to measure Stevenson this year. Although we had loads of success in 7th/8th grade, the only real competition we had was against Barrington Station in the sectionals, which was harder than any match at the State tournament, and the questions were awful. We have the same team this year as we did 2 years ago, when we also had a lot of success on the f/s level. It will be hard to predict how the team(except Zach and Julia) will adjust to the difficulty of the varsity questions, and although Zach and Julia are both extremely good, I think our success will be determined by the rest of us and our ability to adapt to the varsity level.

We will get to see how we do without Zach rather quickly, because he will miss Ultima due to the PSAT. I think that will be our first tournament unless we can somehow make it down to Champagne for Earlybird.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dan-Don » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:07 pm

drose4prez wrote:We will get to see how we do without Zach rather quickly, because he will miss Ultima due to the PSAT.
Collective :party: from teams going to Ultima...NSC qualification just got a little easier
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by abnormal abdomen » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:49 am

Dan-Don wrote:
drose4prez wrote:We will get to see how we do without Zach rather quickly, because he will miss Ultima due to the PSAT.
Collective :party: from teams going to Ultima...NSC qualification just got a little easier
Oh, Dan.

I'm also of the "I haven't seen a ton of Zach Blumenfeld" category as well. I really don't know how much work he's put into the offseason (can I use this term?), but one would be led to assume that he and others of Stevenson (see: Kevin) are hard at work. I'm really interested in seeing how much studying pays off for all these teams; there will undoubtedly be improvement, but who will have the most improvement? I'm also curious as to whether Deveau has been studying outside of ACE Camp. To get an idea of how little I actually know of him, you should know that I've seen more of Zach than I have of Deveau. I do know that he's a one-man wrecking crew, and that he'll be a force to be reckoned with, though. It'll be interesting to see how much help he gets from his teammates as well.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by David Riley » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:48 am

Okay, since Mr. Price opened the door a bit, I'll put in my $0.02 as well as a coach:

1) re Stevenson sans Zach: don't underestimate Julia and the rest of the Stevenson team, they will be a force to be reckoned with.

2) Deveau will certainly lead St. Ignatius; but historically, for whatever reasons, they don't travel much....I wouldn't expect to see them at any outside-of-Chicagoland tournments.

3) As one of my colleagues put it "On a given day, anything can happen". Prognostication is fun, but never assume...in 2007-2008, many of us in the coaching community weren't sure what would happen the following year, and last year was one of, if not the best ever for good Illinois quiz bowl
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:58 am

Oliver Ellsworth wrote:
Max Moon wrote:Based on what I saw 3-4 years ago, never mind last year in the frosh/soph circuit, Stevenson is #1 until some other team shows me otherwise. They ran my Barrington frosh/soph out of the room in the semis of both the Fremd frosh/soph and the Davey and Goliath; The former with Zach, the latter without. 3 and 4 years ago, Daniel Wright JHS ran the table playing IESA scholastic bowl with Zach as captain, before they joined forces with the best from 5 other feeder schools.

Good luck with your seasons to all.

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to say this, but I really don't think IESA is a strong indicator for success at all in a player's junior year in high school.
It's gonna be a good year.
Your opinion is no more or less valid than mine, but I stand by my assertion that IESA success can be a nifty springboard for success in IHSA. If you don't buy that, then why have my Barrington frosh/soph teams from the past two years been so successful? It ain't because BHS is suddenly playing good quizbowl. It IS because I have freshmen who have played 100-150 matches before playing their first high school match. These freshmen can sit down against IMSA sophs, for example, and beat them, simply due to the canon overlap. The teams that have beaten us have very strong programs that coach their players up, and/or kids that also played IESA schobowl, thus nullifying our advantage.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:46 am

Max Moon wrote:
Oliver Ellsworth wrote:
Max Moon wrote:Based on what I saw 3-4 years ago, never mind last year in the frosh/soph circuit, Stevenson is #1 until some other team shows me otherwise. They ran my Barrington frosh/soph out of the room in the semis of both the Fremd frosh/soph and the Davey and Goliath; The former with Zach, the latter without. 3 and 4 years ago, Daniel Wright JHS ran the table playing IESA scholastic bowl with Zach as captain, before they joined forces with the best from 5 other feeder schools.

Good luck with your seasons to all.

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to say this, but I really don't think IESA is a strong indicator for success at all in a player's junior year in high school.
It's gonna be a good year.
Your opinion is no more or less valid than mine, but I stand by my assertion that IESA success can be a nifty springboard for success in IHSA. If you don't buy that, then why have my Barrington frosh/soph teams from the past two years been so successful? It ain't because BHS is suddenly playing good quizbowl. It IS because I have freshmen who have played 100-150 matches before playing their first high school match. These freshmen can sit down against IMSA sophs, for example, and beat them, simply due to the canon overlap. The teams that have beaten us have very strong programs that coach their players up, and/or kids that also played IESA schobowl, thus nullifying our advantage.
I have to agree with this. Just like in any other sport/activity of a competitive nature, practice makes perfect. Yes, it's different here because so much of it is the "canon", but like the man said, there's a measurable overlap. Even if there were not, kids playing together as a team and just learning fundemental quizbowl strategy will carry over to the next level. IESA can't help but build players up for future competition.
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Geringer » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:05 pm

jonah wrote:1. St. Ignatius
Whoa. Deveau is good, but he isn't (at least when I've played him) capable of single-handedly catapulting a team to a number one ranking unless he has progressed at a much, much higher rate than everyone else in the state. St. Ignatius, a team I may have played more than anyone else in this thread, never gave my St. Viator group a game worth remembering. Unless something has really changed over there, it's going to be the "Andrew Deveau Show," and I don't think that the Deveau Show will be able to stand up to more balanced attacks like Auburn or Loyola. No offense to Deveau, but if Ben couldn't pull this feat off at NT, I doubt Andrew will have any more luck at St. Ignatius.

tl;dr "Andrew Deveau is scary good, but I don't think one player will consistently beat more balanced teams."
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:12 pm

Macho Man Randy Savage wrote:
jonah wrote:1. St. Ignatius
Whoa. Deveau is good, but he isn't (at least when I've played him) capable of single-handedly catapulting a team to a number one ranking unless he has progressed at a much, much higher rate than everyone else in the state. St. Ignatius, a team I may have played more than anyone else in this thread, never gave my St. Viator group a game worth remembering. Unless something has really changed over there, it's going to be the "Andrew Deveau Show," and I don't think that the Deveau Show will be able to stand up to more balanced attacks like Auburn or Loyola. No offense to Deveau, but if Ben couldn't pull this feat off at NT, I doubt Andrew will have any more luck at St. Ignatius.

tl;dr "Andrew Deveau is scary good, but I don't think one player will consistently beat more balanced teams."
I think the logic that a team dominated by one scorer will always lose to good balanced teams does not follow. My high school career was basically defined by us losing to better teams, whether or not they were dominated by one scorer (like MLK or Whitman) or balanced ones like Dorman and TJ. In a state that seems to, like the rest of the country, have fallen off in skill level from last year, it very welll may be an opportunity for a strong one man team to finally dominate - the reason Ben didn't last year was more because he was playing against stronger Carbondale and Auburn teams, not because he was inherently flawed as a team with one major player. I have no idea whether this Andrew Deveau is any good or not, but I wish people would stop dealing in platitudes like "the balanced attack always wins" and start dealing in numbers like "is this team going to win more games against other teams."
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:53 pm

Macho Man Randy Savage wrote: Unless something has really changed over there, it's going to be the "Andrew Deveau Show," and I don't think that the Deveau Show will be able to stand up to more balanced attacks like Auburn or Loyola. No offense to Deveau, but if Ben couldn't pull this feat off at NT, I doubt Andrew will have any more luck at St. Ignatius.

tl;dr "Andrew Deveau is scary good, but I don't think one player will consistently beat more balanced teams."
I don't think Ben is a good example to support this. Last year, Auburn's "balanced attack" included a certain player who frequently put up 100+ ppg at almost every tournament, not exactly as balanced as you make it out to be, while this year I believe that it is truly balanced and nobody will be putting up those rediculous numbers other than people who are running one man shows (Zach/Deveau). Basically, I'm saying using Ben is a bad example because the team you quoted as winning because of balance also won because they had Siva, who usually put up within 20 ppg of Ben. Thus, it becomes more of an issue of who had the better supporting cast, as clearly Michael Jiang was.
Nolan Winkler
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Re: Illinois '09-'10

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:45 pm

Macho Man Randy Savage wrote:
jonah wrote:1. St. Ignatius
Whoa. Deveau is good, but he isn't (at least when I've played him) capable of single-handedly catapulting a team to a number one ranking unless he has progressed at a much, much higher rate than everyone else in the state. St. Ignatius, a team I may have played more than anyone else in this thread, never gave my St. Viator group a game worth remembering. Unless something has really changed over there, it's going to be the "Andrew Deveau Show," and I don't think that the Deveau Show will be able to stand up to more balanced attacks like Auburn or Loyola. No offense to Deveau, but if Ben couldn't pull this feat off at NT, I doubt Andrew will have any more luck at St. Ignatius.

tl;dr "Andrew Deveau is scary good, but I don't think one player will consistently beat more balanced teams."
We were probably the most balanced team in state last year and Deveau and Co. beat us three times out of the five we played. They went 2-0 against us at NT Varsity. In the first game, they beat us 300-135, with Deveau getting 80 of his teams 100 tossup points. The second game they beat us 260-155, with Deveau accouting for 50 of his team's 80 tossup points. Either one of these games he would have beaten us solo. He also scored 670 points in 9 games at Huskie Bowl. St. Viator put up 875 points in 10 games. He also led his team to a significantly higher bonus conversion. In fact, Maine South beat you 215-200 at this tournament. Deveau scored 50 of his team's 65 points.

For the record, both St. Viator and Buffalo Grove were extremely balanced. I think this essentialy kills your "Deveau can't beat balanced teams theory". Also, the argument that Ben Cohen could not pull off the feat is not only flawed, but entirely incorrect. It is flawed because last year's scene in Illinois was much stronger than this year's. It is incorrect because Ben Cohen did beat these teams more than a couple times.

Also, St. Ig had a very solid F/S team. Just because "Ig" is a little weird does not mean that he cannot contribute to a goos team.
Nicholas Bergeon
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UW-Madison '12
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