Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

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Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:22 pm

This is a quick announcement about NAQT computation policy for next year's HSNCT.

NAQT has decided to remove computational math tossups from the 2010 HSNCT. It is likely, but not certain, that there will be computational math bonus parts. Expect a full announcement re: HSNCT distribution change later this summer (once we've decided what other changes we wish to make).
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Deckard Cain » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:28 pm

This is terrific news.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:42 pm

This is cool news. Thanks for letting us know!

Any further news regarding results from the survey, or about decisions on math in regular-season IS-sets, would be greatly appreciated when it becomes public.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:48 pm

RyuAqua wrote:decisions on math in regular-season IS-sets, would be greatly appreciated when it becomes public.
This isn't a done deal yet, but we're seriously considering a model allowing hosts to choose computation/non-computation versions of IS sets.

Similar thread later for final distribution change, but the written-in-pencil version we have now uses 1/1 computation (rather than 2/0) per IS-set packet for 2009-2010.

Full survey results available sometime relatively soon, too- let me know if there's anything in particular you'd like to see before we finish checking the numbers and post it to naqt.com.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by at your pleasure » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:53 pm

Excellent news. Presumably, the space freed up by this decision will go towards underserved academic categories and/or theoretical math.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:02 pm

At least some of it will almost certainly be theoretical math (but we're not sure how much canon expansion that answer space can take: probably not the whole 46 tossups?)
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:31 pm

Great news. NAQT +1 respect.

Can we ever get a full report on the survey that we took in Chicago this May, as well?

EDIT: typo.
Last edited by Down and out in Quintana Roo on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by kayli » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:04 am

This in a way bums me out. I knew it could never be but I sort of wish it could... much like Harry and Hermoine...
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Auroni » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:06 am

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:This in a way bumstr me out. I knew it could never be but I sort of wish it could... much like Harry and Hermoine...
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Charbroil » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:39 am

Champa Kalhari wrote:It is likely, but not certain, that there will be computational math bonus parts.
Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:This in a way bums me out.
I don't really see why...is there going to be a net decrease in computational math? If not, then this keeps the math while eliminating most of the issues with math computation tossups which made them problematic.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by kayli » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:59 am

Charbroil wrote:
Champa Kalhari wrote:It is likely, but not certain, that there will be computational math bonus parts.
Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:This in a way bums me out.
I don't really see why...is there going to be a net decrease in computational math? If not, then this keeps the math while eliminating most of the issues with math computation tossups which made them problematic.
It's just that a little part of me wished that good math comp tossups could be possible...
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:15 am

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:It's just that a little part of me wished that good math comp tossups could be possible...
I am quite willing to believe that either NAQT or you will continue to try to discover the secret formula whether or not math computation tossups are present in HSNCT or in other sets. That way, good math comp tossups, if such a thing be possible (I sincerely doubt it, but that's not relevant), will be developed eventually, but we won't determine national champions using bad ones until such a time as good ones are found.

As it is, I couldn't be happier that NAQT is making this change, and I very much hope that this change expands in future years to include NAQT's regular-season products.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by master15625 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:43 am

Um, does anyone know how many math theory tossups there were in this year's HSNCT? It really seemed to be a small amount. So hopefully, HSNCT will increase the number of math theory tossups rather than just get rid of the math computation tossups and replace it completely with tossups from other subjects.


There weren't really any math computation bonuses anyways at this year's HSNCT, so I wouldn't be surprised if NAQT didn't change that.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:56 am

Not sure Neil, but i do know that NAQT's "math" (not "computation") distribution on IS sets was 0.4/0.5: http://www.naqt.com/hs/distribution.jsp
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Cheynem » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:05 am

While reading, one thing I felt about comp math tossups (and bonuses, I guess, although I really don't remember that many if at all), is that due to the time given to perform the computations, for two teams that weren't strong at math, this in effect turned into multiple seconds of dead space, which was frustrating if a team was behind and looking to catch up and instead was stuck with a tossup that not only they couldn't answer but was sucking up more time than usual. In one instance, where both teams wanted to get past the tossup, each team buzzed in one right after the other with (I presume, but I have no way of knowing) a quick guess to kill it. In my opinion, due to the length, comp math questions in general are very problematic in a timed game, regardless of other issues.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:45 am

Cheynem wrote:While reading, one thing I felt about comp math tossups (and bonuses, I guess, although I really don't remember that many if at all), is that due to the time given to perform the computations, for two teams that weren't strong at math, this in effect turned into multiple seconds of dead space, which was frustrating if a team was behind and looking to catch up and instead was stuck with a tossup that not only they couldn't answer but was sucking up more time than usual. In one instance, where both teams wanted to get past the tossup, each team buzzed in one right after the other with (I presume, but I have no way of knowing) a quick guess to kill it. In my opinion, due to the length, comp math questions in general are very problematic in a timed game, regardless of other issues.
YES. This was extremely agitating in several close games we had (most of which we ended up losing) when we just knew we had no chance of getting it but waited 10 seconds because the other team worked on it and usually didn't get it right anyway. During a timed match, hearing the computational tossups was excruciating.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:08 pm

master15625 wrote:does anyone know how many math theory tossups there were in this year's HSNCT? It really seemed to be a small amount. So hopefully, HSNCT will increase the number of math theory tossups rather than just get rid of the math computation tossups and replace it completely with tossups from other subjects.

There weren't really any math computation bonuses anyways at this year's HSNCT, so I wouldn't be surprised if NAQT didn't change that.
The 2009 HSNCT contained 12/14 (non-computational) math.

Again, we haven't made any decisions about this, but it's likely that the 2010 edition will contain both 1. an increase in theoretical math and 2. some amount of bonuses with computational parts. (So that the overall amount of math in the set is roughly constant; and that some computation will remain. Because we know that there are lots of teams out there that like math and computation; and comp bonuses are a good idea because they lack the major drawbacks of computation tossups.)
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:16 pm

Cheynem wrote:While reading, one thing I felt about comp math tossups (and bonuses, I guess, although I really don't remember that many if at all), is that due to the time given to perform the computations, for two teams that weren't strong at math, this in effect turned into multiple seconds of dead space
Concur.
my internal NAQT memo against computational tossups wrote:I'd argue that dead computation tossups are even worse than other dead tossups, precisely because they eat up more of the clock while players fail to perform calculations.
I would hope that the bonuses would have the standard five seconds (since they'll test "do you know how to do this problem? yes/no"), but we haven't made a decision yet. Even if they do have longer time limits, it is of course legal for a team to unilaterally spike its bonus.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Unicolored Jay » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:51 pm

Cheynem wrote:While reading, one thing I felt about comp math tossups (and bonuses, I guess, although I really don't remember that many if at all), is that due to the time given to perform the computations, for two teams that weren't strong at math, this in effect turned into multiple seconds of dead space, which was frustrating if a team was behind and looking to catch up and instead was stuck with a tossup that not only they couldn't answer but was sucking up more time than usual. In one instance, where both teams wanted to get past the tossup, each team buzzed in one right after the other with (I presume, but I have no way of knowing) a quick guess to kill it. In my opinion, due to the length, comp math questions in general are very problematic in a timed game, regardless of other issues.
Yeah, in the 2007-2008 year our captain was really good with math, and probably thus our highest finish at the HSNCT since 2005. Since he graduated we haven't been very good with it, aside from one or two players who don't know too much else. With the time limits I always rush to get the answer, and thus make a mistake in the process (usually multiplication errors). So they became lost points, sometimes when it could have amde a difference.

I like this news. Now teams who don't have a math (calculation) expert can potentially do better. :party: I haven't seen too much theoretical math, so I'll be glaad to see more of those come up if it is replacing computational math.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:08 am

Champa Kalhari wrote:Again, we haven't made any decisions about this, but it's likely that the 2010 edition will contain both 1. an increase in theoretical math and 2. some amount of bonuses with computational parts. (So that the overall amount of math in the set is roughly constant; and that some computation will remain. Because we know that there are lots of teams out there that like math and computation; and comp bonuses are a good idea because they lack the major drawbacks of computation tossups.)
What subjects do you think are most likely to be upped to correspond to computational math being eliminated from tossups? That's over thirty new tossups you can use for great causes.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:11 am

Whaddaya know, the higher-ups actually listen to us! Yay!
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:55 am

Excellent news. I'm glad to see that NAQT has decided to listen to the masses.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by First Chairman » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:23 am

Good to know...

I am interested in how one "chooses" a set with computational math for the regular purchase-able sets. In my 2-second brainstorming, is NAQT considering the creating of IS-#C sets that would include math calculation tossups? Would IS-A sets have optional with-or-without-math-calc-tossup option for the purchaser, or would IS-A sets NOT have that option?
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Charbroil » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:00 am

What subjects do you think are most likely to be upped to correspond to computational math being eliminated from tossups? That's over thirty new tossups you can use for great causes.
Also, which topics would suffer a reduced distribution in terms of bonuses as a result of using computational math bonuses?
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by jonpin » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:30 am

First Chairman wrote:Good to know...

I am interested in how one "chooses" a set with computational math for the regular purchase-able sets. In my 2-second brainstorming, is NAQT considering the creating of IS-#C sets that would include math calculation tossups? Would IS-A sets have optional with-or-without-math-calc-tossup option for the purchaser, or would IS-A sets NOT have that option?
Yeah, this seems like an incomprehensible idea. Like, there's a set with 24 tossups, 1 of which is calc. Is the non-calc set 23 tossups, or is there a 24th one added (in a category that people who play the calc-set will be short in). Just write the sets, and people will do what they always do: have the option to skip P&PR if they desire.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:07 am

The hypothetical non-calc set would be 23/23 (or whatever). Observationally, a majority of our customers use untimed play anyway, and I suspect that the number of people who love the clock and can't live without math comp is a tiny fraction of our customer base.

In our existing IS distribution, the science categories are tilted slightly toward bonuses to accommodate the computation tossups. (Bio, chem, physics: 14/16 each, compared to, say, 18/18 British lit or 25/25 US history) So that's the logical place to start moving questions around.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Is NAQT going to publish the planned HSNCT distribution soon?
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:09 pm

We're going to publish it, but don't expect it soon. (We have not yet decided on its final content, other than that computation tossups are gone.)
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Nick » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:18 pm

Will the results of the two surveys done shortly before and during the 2009 HSNCT be released as announced?
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Ondes Martenot » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:20 pm

We're going to publish it, but don't expect it soon. (We have not yet decided on its final content, other than that computation tossups are gone.)
Jeff, has a decision been made yet about this?
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Important Bird Area » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:44 pm

Ondes Martenot wrote:
We're going to publish it, but don't expect it soon. (We have not yet decided on its final content, other than that computation tossups are gone.)
Jeff, has a decision been made yet about this?
The 2010 HSNCT distribution is already posted.
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Re: Computation questions and the 2010 HSNCT

Post by Ondes Martenot » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:44 pm

Ok see there is now about 1/1 noncomp math a round which I actually sort of like, but I can't account for all the space cleared by the removal of comp math. Were there any other major changes made to the distribution you can point out?
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