Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by Jscwod » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:10 pm

Trash is a difficult subject to talk about. My team is split 2-2 on whether trash should stay in. I feel that the reason members of my team would like to see it gone is because they do not get those tossups. Although trash can sometimes be seen too frequently, some should stay in tournaments. It may not be an academic subject, but it still an important part of culture.
Last edited by Jscwod on Mon May 31, 2010 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Cwodzinski
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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by Thundercougarfalconbird » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:55 pm

There are a few differences between classical music and pop culture though, viz., all or most of the classical music you will be asked about in quiz bowl is really good, while a great deal of pop culture is irredeemably sucky.

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kayli
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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by kayli » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:32 pm

Just saying that trash is a category in quizbowl therefore you should study isn't very good reasoning. In Chip Beall bowl, you have questions on driver's education and household appliances. Should those questions be asked and studied simply because it was there before? I think that would be absurd. In my opinion, quizbowl should strive to differentiate strata of relevant, academic knowledge. The key here is identifying what's relevant or academic. For the most part, all sciences and histories are academic. When talking about popular culture (books, music, movies, etc.), trying to identify what is relevant or academic is difficult. I take a great books approach to it by saying that, in order for it to be asked in quizbowl, it should 1) have contemporary significant 2) can be read, listened to, watched, etc. multiple times with benefit and 3) deal with issues or ideas that have been occupied by the minds of thinking individuals for the past millenia.
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at your pleasure
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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by at your pleasure » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:49 pm

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:Just saying that trash is a category in quizbowl therefore you should study isn't very good reasoning. In Chip Beall bowl, you have questions on driver's education and household appliances. Should those questions be asked and studied simply because it was there before? I think that would be absurd. In my opinion, quizbowl should strive to differentiate strata of relevant, academic knowledge. The key here is identifying what's relevant or academic. For the most part, all sciences and histories are academic. When talking about popular culture (books, music, movies, etc.), trying to identify what is relevant or academic is difficult. I take a great books approach to it by saying that, in order for it to be asked in quizbowl, it should 1) have contemporary significant 2) can be read, listened to, watched, etc. multiple times with benefit and 3) deal with issues or ideas that have been occupied by the minds of thinking individuals for the past millenia.
In principle, I agree with your anti-trash stance. However as has been said earlier in this thread, trash is helpful enough in retaining new players that it's worth putting up with for one question a round.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
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kayli
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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by kayli » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:33 pm

I've since taken a less radical position. Now, I think that, in state and national championships, trash should not be allowed. There's really no reason to put trash in a tournament designed to crown a state or national championship. That really de-legitimizes the entire thing in my opinion.
Kay, Chicago.

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Charley Pride
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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by Charley Pride » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:14 am

I support relevant trash, just as I support relevant current events. That is, trash that is pertinent to "the times" (award-winning films, important sports figures, etc.). For current events, I think the qualifier is stuff that had a good chance of being considered history 20, 30, 40, 50 years in the future. I don't think quiz bowl is so much academic as it is relevant to modern society.
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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by BRizzle » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:40 am

There is no reason that there should be more trash than fine arts in the HSNCT distribution...
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Re: Proposition: Get Rid of Trash

Post by GBRodgers12 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:23 pm

I understand the argument that trash can help bring students to the game and make them feel like they want to stay and keep playing on the team. This is very valid, so having a trash question in each round in A-sets and IS-sets, I can understand. However, I think that it should disappear when we hit the state set and the HSNCT - thus, allowing the best academic teams to win on academic knowledge, not because a member of the team is a fan of the Jonas Brothers and tossup [Insert # Here] was on the Jonas Brothers.
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Post by Gaterion » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:30 am

I believe that this is part of a greater debate on the nature of the game. As the arbiter of our pursuit says, there are two different schools of thought on good quizbowl:
Quizbowl Wiki wrote: Good quizbowl is the umbrella term for two different schools of quizbowl thought, both of which have prominent proponents in the college and (to a lesser extent) high school games. Neither school is viewed as more "correct" than the other, being seen as more of a stylistic choice, and they mainly differ over cosmetic issues such as tossup length. Most quizbowl players, even those who primarily champion one view, recognize that the two philosophies are somewhat interdependent and hold opinions somewhere between the two extremes.

Game-oriented good quizbowl
The central dogma of game-oriented good quizbowl states that the primary purpose of each game is to fairly differentiate which of the two opposing teams is better.

Learning-oriented good quizbowl
The central dogma of learning-oriented good quizbowl states that quizbowl should be primarily a meditative, cerebral experience that allows players to learn, both in breadth and in depth, about subjects which one may have some or no familiarity by reading, writing, and playing questions.
I fall more in with the second category; the game should be an end in and of itself, but moreover a medium through which a person is exposed to the world and its wonders. It may show the beautiful, as in most art; it may show our history, how our world came to the point it is now; it may show some clever process developed by some inventor, the ingenuity of humanity; above all, it should show some exaltation of the human spirit. Does this mean that one may edit the relative importance of some subjects, for example not requiring a question on driver's ed in every competition? Yes. Does this leave open the possibility of some question sometime ever being on driver's ed? Yes. "Trash" really should be a wildcard category, some small check that the quizbowler lives in the world, experiences it as part of a greater fabric of being, connected to people outside of the academic experience in some way. Academic quizbowl rewards knowledge of things that last, that have been proven to be greater than their moment, that leave deep tracks through our experience. Trash should reward knowledge of the more transitory, of things that may or may not be remembered, of things that may leave but a fairy's footfall in the first frost of time.

tl;dr 1/1 is reasonable for mainstream tournaments.
Peter Komarek
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