Attending Bad Tournaments

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
Locked
User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:52 am

As I was browsing the Illinois section I came across a statement that made me wonder about something:
jonah wrote:Stop going to tournaments run badly and with bad, unfair rules.
Should teams attend local tournaments that are ran on bad questions and in bad formats? Kentucky really doesn't have a great schedule of tournaments, only Danville, Dunbar, and UofL host good events in my opinion. And many other sections of the country are in the same boat. So, should teams committed to good quizbowl travel long distances and compete less frequently just to avoid bad events, or should we hold our noses and compete as often as possible?

Edited for quotage
Nick Conder
Louisville, KY

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."--Eugene V. Debs

User avatar
Irreligion in Bangladesh
Auron
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Winnebago, IL

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:59 am

soaringeagle22 wrote:As I was browsing the Illinois section I came across a statement that made me wonder about something:
jonah wrote:Stop going to tournaments run badly and with bad, unfair rules.
Should teams attend local tournaments that are ran on bad questions and in bad formats? Kentucky really doesn't have a great schedule of tournaments, only Danville, Dunbar, and UofL host good events in my opinion. And many other sections of the country are in the same boat. So, should teams committed to good quizbowl travel long distances and compete less frequently just to avoid bad events, or should we hold our noses and compete as often as possible?

Edited for quotage
As I'm in the process of posting over there, bad quizbowl isn't quizbowl and it's not worth playing. You'd be better off staying at home studying or taking a week off if there's nothing (HS or college) at all.
Brad Fischer
Head Editor, IHSA State Series

Winnebago HS ('06)
Northern Illinois University ('10)
Assistant Coach, IMSA (2010-12)
Coach, Keith Country Day School (2012-16)

jonah
Auron
Posts: 2301
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by jonah » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:12 am

soaringeagle22 wrote:As I was browsing the Illinois section I came across a statement that made me wonder about something:
jonah wrote:Stop going to tournaments run badly and with bad, unfair rules.
Should teams attend local tournaments that are ran on bad questions and in bad formats? Kentucky really doesn't have a great schedule of tournaments, only Danville, Dunbar, and UofL host good events in my opinion. And many other sections of the country are in the same boat. So, should teams committed to good quizbowl travel long distances and compete less frequently just to avoid bad events, or should we hold our noses and compete as often as possible?
No, don't attend tournaments that are run on bad questions and/or in bad formats regardless of where they are located. (The two exceptions I mentioned in the thread where that quote is from are tournaments that many teams are effectively forced to enter because of politics and money, respectively, and while I don't like it, I understand the reason it happens.) To fill up that time in productive quizbowl-related ways other than traveling far distances, which you should of course do when possible, practice more, scrimmage against faculty (or anyone else willing), write questions, etc. Also, explain to the people whose tournaments you're eschewing why you're doing it and what they can do to get you to attend.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:15 am

I'd say that there are occasional exceptions. If a bad-quizbowl-loving senior class is putting on a bad tournament that will essentially end up fundraising for the following year, thereby enabling a good-quizbowl-loving junior (then senior) class to do good stuff... then hold your nose, I guess. Or, better yet, donate your entry fee to the juniors of the club. But on the whole, yeah. Avoid.
Andrew Watkins

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:30 am

The main argument for attending poor tournaments seems to be that they prepare teams for state-based competitions while good quizbowl does not. Until such competitions are improved, is that argument sound?
Nick Conder
Louisville, KY

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."--Eugene V. Debs

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Charbroil » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:36 am

I mean, I'm in the minority within this thread by saying this, but I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments being expressed.
Sure, if it's the difference between traveling 2 hours to play a good tournament and 1 to play a bad one, you definitely go to the good one, but if it's a question of playing a bad tournament and not playing at all and you have enough money so that going to a bad event doesn't keep you from going to a good one, I don't believe that you should forsake the chance of playing at all. After all, isn't the reason that people don't excoriate teams pre-1999 for going to the NAC because it was the "only game in town?" I mean, I think I'm not alone in saying that there are enjoyable aspects in getting to compete at a tournament beyond the quality of the questions.

Now, don't get me wrong, this isn't an apologia for bad tournaments, nor am I saying that bad questions are more fun or anything--merely that even bad Quiz Bowl is better than no Quiz Bowl.

Besides, it's not as if Winnebago was an absolutely execrable event or anything--NAQT has its flaws and things like the blurt rule are pretty annoying, but having just come today from moderating a Questions Galore single elimination tournament that only guaranteed three games, I can safely assure you that there's far, far worse things out there.
The main argument for attending poor tournaments seems to be that they prepare teams for state-based competitions while good quizbowl does not. Until such competitions are improved, is that argument sound?
That said, I don't find this argument sound--unless you forget how to hold a buzzer waiting for a good event or something, it's pretty pointless to attend a tournament for this reason. If said state competition is that important to you, just practice on the format the week or two before or something.
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by at your pleasure » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:40 am

soaringeagle22 wrote:The main argument for attending poor tournaments seems to be that they prepare teams for state-based competitions while good quizbowl does not. Until such competitions are improved, is that argument sound?
I guess the questions is, "How much do you really care about state-based competition?" Also, I suppose you could go to try and spread the word about good quizbowl, but that's about the only other reason I can come up with aside from "There are other good teams going, so at least we can kvetch about the questions". That's only really an argument for choosing between a bad tournament with no good teams and a bad tournament with some good teams.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

User avatar
Irreligion in Bangladesh
Auron
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Winnebago, IL

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:46 am

Charbroil wrote:I mean, I'm in the minority within this thread by saying this, but I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments being expressed.
Sure, if it's the difference between traveling 2 hours to play a good tournament and 1 to play a bad one, you definitely go to the good one, but if it's a question of playing a bad tournament and not playing at all and you have enough money so that going to a bad event doesn't keep you from going to a good one, I don't believe that you should forsake the chance of playing at all. After all, isn't the reason that people don't excoriate teams pre-1999 for going to the NAC because it was the "only game in town?" I mean, I think I'm not alone in saying that there are enjoyable aspects in getting to compete at a tournament beyond the quality of the questions.

Now, don't get me wrong, this isn't an apologia for bad tournaments, nor am I saying that bad questions are more fun or anything--merely that even bad Quiz Bowl is better than no Quiz Bowl.

Besides, it's not as if Winnebago was an absolutely execrable event or anything--NAQT has its flaws and things like the blurt rule are pretty annoying, but having just come today from moderating a Questions Galore single elimination tournament that only guaranteed three games, I can safely assure you that there's far, far worse things out there.
The main argument for attending poor tournaments seems to be that they prepare teams for state-based competitions while good quizbowl does not. Until such competitions are improved, is that argument sound?
That said, I don't find this argument sound--unless you forget how to hold a buzzer waiting for a good event or something, it's pretty pointless to attend a tournament for this reason. If said state competition is that important to you, just practice on the format the week or two before or something.
1. You never have enough money to throw cash at bad tournaments, and even if you do, you shouldn't patronize the bad tournament because they're probably using it as a fundraiser.

2. Winnebago was bad, by the standards of good quizbowl. 17 or 18 of 20 teams there enjoyed it, from what I saw. Even then, argument from "17th place of 18 is A-OK" isn't valid.
Brad Fischer
Head Editor, IHSA State Series

Winnebago HS ('06)
Northern Illinois University ('10)
Assistant Coach, IMSA (2010-12)
Coach, Keith Country Day School (2012-16)

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Charbroil » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:08 am

styxman wrote: 1. You never have enough money to throw cash at bad tournaments, and even if you do, you shouldn't patronize the bad tournament because they're probably using it as a fundraiser.

2. Winnebago was bad, by the standards of good quizbowl. 17 or 18 of 20 teams there enjoyed it, from what I saw. Even then, argument from "17th place of 18 is A-OK" isn't valid.
@ Point One--I'm assuming that there's still enough money left to attend all good tournaments within whatever radius you're willing to travel. Granted, there's still the issue of saving money for Nationals, etc., but at the schools I've seen, tournament money has always been requisitioned per event (rather than getting, say, $1000 at the beginning of the year to go wherever you want), so it's not as if it's easy to plan ahead in that regard.

As for patronizing the event because it's being used as a fundraiser, I seem to be misunderstanding you--you're saying that because the team is running a bad tournament, the hosts are bad people and you shouldn't give them money because you shouldn't give money to bad people? I mean, even if you buy into the "bad Quiz Bowl = bad people" argument Matt Weiner puts forward (which is true in some but not all cases, in my mind), this seems to be going a bit far.

Also, as I mention below, nothing about Winnebago seems to be as awful as you seem to be implying.

@ Point Two--Nowhere am I saying that bad tournaments are A-OK; that said, what exactly was bad at Winnebago outside of NAQT, the blurt rule, and some issues with bonus conferral? I mean, don't get me wrong, those are all bad things that should be changed, but it doesn't make this event eligible for placement in the absolute bottom tier of Quiz Bowl ever. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if 1 is perfect and 18 is the worst possible Quiz Bowl ever, this is a 17--and that hardly seems true. Or am I misunderstanding your last sentence?
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
Irreligion in Bangladesh
Auron
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Winnebago, IL

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:22 am

Charbroil wrote:
styxman wrote: 1. You never have enough money to throw cash at bad tournaments, and even if you do, you shouldn't patronize the bad tournament because they're probably using it as a fundraiser.

2. Winnebago was bad, by the standards of good quizbowl. 17 or 18 of 20 teams there enjoyed it, from what I saw. Even then, argument from "17th place of 18 is A-OK" isn't valid.
@ Point One--I'm assuming that there's still enough money left to attend all good tournaments within whatever radius you're willing to travel. Granted, there's still the issue of saving money for Nationals, etc., but at the schools I've seen, tournament money has always been requisitioned per event (rather than getting, say, $1000 at the beginning of the year to go wherever you want), so it's not as if it's easy to plan ahead in that regard.

As for patronizing the event because it's being used as a fundraiser, I seem to be misunderstanding you--you're saying that because the team is running a bad tournament, the hosts are bad people and you shouldn't give them money because you shouldn't give money to bad people? I mean, even if you buy into the "bad Quiz Bowl = bad people" argument Matt Weiner puts forward (which is true in some but not all cases, in my mind), this seems to be going a bit far.

Also, as I mention below, nothing about Winnebago seems to be as awful as you seem to be implying.

@ Point Two--Nowhere am I saying that bad tournaments are A-OK; that said, what exactly was bad at Winnebago outside of NAQT, the blurt rule, and some issues with bonus conferral? I mean, don't get me wrong, those are all bad things that should be changed, but it doesn't make this event eligible for placement in the absolute bottom tier of Quiz Bowl ever. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that if 1 is perfect and 18 is the worst possible Quiz Bowl ever, this is a 17--and that hardly seems true. Or am I misunderstanding your last sentence?
If a school hosts a bad quizbowl tournament for a fundraiser, your participation and entry fee is leverage to change it to good quizbowl. You can say "we'll attend this tournament if you switch to a better set/etc." and you reward good quizbowl. Nonchalantly attending a bad quizbowl tournament perpetuates the status quo. I don't really think bad quizbowl = bad people (as evidenced by Winnebago's coaches being good people) - I'm on the side of rewarding good more than punishing bad.

If Auburn people want to jump in with more specifics - I only watched a couple rounds - there were question quality issues, blurt rule, bonus conferral rules, as well as archaic timing rules that only serve to confuse, a rule that apparently banned protests, a schedule that only offered 8 games, settled ties on paper, and didn't allow an advantaged final (though one wasn't needed) and moderators who openly derided multi-clue pyramidal questions. So the only aspect of good quizbowl present at this tournament - one that was admittedly flawed by the weak NAQT set! - was being mocked by the tournament staff.

You can pretty much ignore the "17th of 18th" comment - the numbers mean nothing, it's just noting that just because a tourney isn't worst of all time doesn't mean it's exempt from criticism or automatically OK.
Brad Fischer
Head Editor, IHSA State Series

Winnebago HS ('06)
Northern Illinois University ('10)
Assistant Coach, IMSA (2010-12)
Coach, Keith Country Day School (2012-16)

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Charbroil » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:40 am

styxman wrote: If a school hosts a bad quizbowl tournament for a fundraiser, your participation and entry fee is leverage to change it to good quizbowl. You can say "we'll attend this tournament if you switch to a better set/etc." and you reward good quizbowl. Nonchalantly attending a bad quizbowl tournament perpetuates the status quo. I don't really think bad quizbowl = bad people (as evidenced by Winnebago's coaches being good people) - I'm on the side of rewarding good more than punishing bad.
Sure--if you can make this work, this sounds like a bad idea; I'm just somewhat skeptical about the effectiveness of a unilateral boycott. That said, I'd certainly hope that Auburn will at least send Winnebago's coaches an email about the issues today (and that you will too).
styxman wrote: If Auburn people want to jump in with more specifics - I only watched a couple rounds - there were question quality issues, blurt rule, bonus conferral rules, as well as archaic timing rules that only serve to confuse, a rule that apparently banned protests, a schedule that only offered 8 games, settled ties on paper, and didn't allow an advantaged final (though one wasn't needed) and moderators who openly derided multi-clue pyramidal questions. So the only aspect of good quizbowl present at this tournament - one that was admittedly flawed by the weak NAQT set! - was being mocked by the tournament staff.

You can pretty much ignore the "17th of 18th" comment - the numbers mean nothing, it's just noting that just because a tourney isn't worst of all time doesn't mean it's exempt from criticism or automatically OK.
Sure, I agree. It just seemed a bit much to devote 47 (and counting) posts in the other thread to excoriate people for something we already knew about. I'm definitely not saying bad tournaments should get a free pass. That said, the description you just gave (the protest rules notwithstanding) would be of a significantly above average tourney when I played in high school (in notably good Quiz Bowl deficient Missouri). That's not to say it was a good event, merely that I don't think it's realistic to tell everyone to not play events like Winnebago, if only because I imagine that for quite a few teams, it's the best game in town.
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:43 am

Charles brings up a good point, which is basically location. In places like Illinois or the Mid-Atlantic, good quizbowl (or even average quizbowl) is easy to find, and on most weekends at that. I'm thinking more along the lines of places like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. where it's much more rare. There are roughly 5 "good" quizbowl events a year in the state of Kentucky. Now, I'm trying to change that, but change doesn't happen over night. There are also a few others within reasonable driving distance (I'm talking 5 hours or less) in neighboring states. Beyond that, there are other tournaments in other regions (such as aforementioned Mid-Atlantic), but teams can't realistically travel long distances every weekend.

So, to maybe rephrase my question a little bit. Would it be a bad idea to attend a tournament that is average or even bad when it is 1 hour away, while the only alternative may be 6-10 hours away or more? Or should teams just stay away from bad or average tournaments altogether and only attend the 8-10 good events they could make it to in a year?
Nick Conder
Louisville, KY

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."--Eugene V. Debs

User avatar
Huang
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Huang » Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:35 am

soaringeagle22 wrote: Would it be a bad idea to attend a tournament that is average or even bad when it is 1 hour away, while the only alternative may be 6-10 hours away or more? Or should teams just stay away from bad or average tournaments altogether and only attend the 8-10 good events they could make it to in a year?
Since I live in the same state, I guess it would be helpful if I told you what I do in terms of attending tournaments. I never attend a fake tournament (anything that resembles quick recall) even if it's held at my own school (league matches or whatever). I'm not really sure how you're defining "average" tournament but any real tournament is worth attending (acceptable housewrites, HSAPQ, NAQT, etc.). Also, I think attending 8-10 real tournaments is a really high number for any Kentucky team. I've only attended 10 real tournaments in the past three years (2 freshman year, 6 sophomore year, and 2 so far this year).
Sandy

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:04 pm

What about bad tournaments that are free?
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

Angry Babies in Love
Yuna
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:09 pm
Location: MD//DC

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:02 pm

I personally see little wrong with attending bad tournaments, unless there is a good tournament that day somewhere in your area. It''s still competition on questions against other teams. It doesn't have a detrimental effect on the way people play in real tournaments (at least it hasn't at RM, who has gone to Green Eggs and Hammond every year since eternity, even the national championship years) and you can still learn information from bad questions. And there's the question of why you go to tournaments. If you go just for the sole purpose of preparing for nationals, then bad tournaments aren't a great idea. But if you also play quizbowl to have fun, (many) bad tournaments are just as good for that as pyramidal ones, in my opinion.
Raynell Cooper
Arcadia ES '04
Richard Montgomery HS '11
George Washington University '15
University of Maryland, College Park '17
Hella things, National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
kayli
Auron
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by kayli » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:08 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with attending a free bad tournament. Now, if it's on the same day as a costly good tournament, then it's up to the club to decide which to attend. There's no correct answer as to which one they should attend since money will always be an issue.
Kay, Chicago.

User avatar
cvdwightw
Auron
Posts: 3446
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Southern CA
Contact:

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by cvdwightw » Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:01 pm

There was always an interesting discussion about this in the college section back when CBI was around; it was always more interesting because you could divide schools into three groups: those that de-affiliated from CBI and will never re-affiliate; those whose clubs have nothing to do with CBI but go anyway because the student union pays for everything and then some; those whose clubs bizarrely enjoy CBI and pay the obscene amount of money to go.

One of the more popular positions in that thread was "lots of quizbowlers play CBI because they don't know any better." This was quickly countered by the fact that (1) a lot of those people who played CBI weren't part of any real "quizbowl club" and (2) outreach efforts at CBI tournaments were largely unsuccessful.

I think there's the possibility that neither (1) nor (2) is the case at the high school level, especially in places with lots of bad tournaments. Good teams attending the occasional bad tournament can identify talented and/or frustrated teams that might be better served playing real questions if only they knew about them.
Dwight Wynne
socalquizbowl.org
UC Irvine 2008-2013; UCLA 2004-2007; Capistrano Valley High School 2000-2003

"It's a competition, but it's not a sport. On a scale, if football is a 10, then rowing would be a two. One would be Quiz Bowl." --Matt Birk on rowing, SI On Campus, 10/21/03

"If you were my teammate, I would have tossed your ass out the door so fast you'd be emitting Cerenkov radiation, but I'm not classy like Dwight." --Jerry

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:55 pm

I think this thread takes a too wide reaching approach to this problem. Consider Kansas:
In Kansas, the state format is a 16 tossup one line game with all the tossups coming in subject clumps, something like 25% computation, and undoubtedly other bad quizbowl trappings. The state association bans out of state competition, so driving to an Oklahoma or Missouri event is out of the question. Your only choices then are to attend bad tournaments, or to cease being a team. I think any coach who has any interest at all in their team would choose the former, since the latter is obviously going to be detrimental to student involvement. I don't see how this is a morally compromising choice for those coaches, and I don't see how throwing all coaches who ever go to bad tournaments in the same trash can rhetorically is fair. If you live in northern Illinois and are avoiding the season's worth of available good quizbowl tournaments despite knowing better, that is bad, If you live in the DC area and only want to go to Green Eggs and Hammond, that is bad. But if you truly live in a region where it is unreasonable to attend a season's worth of good quizbowl, I don't see how those coaches are doing a bad thing by choosing to keep their team existent. When good quizbowl does reach those states, I think it should be obvious that a circuit already being in place will make it much easier to build a market for those events within a decent span of time, compared to a situation where the hosts have to try and convince teams to materialize from scratch to try and get anything - compare the successes of MOQBA with the unfortunate situation of the Boise State team. Many posters in this thread seem unwilling to recognize that maybe there are some gray areas in this issue, and I think that is a shame.
Last edited by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

jonah
Auron
Posts: 2301
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by jonah » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:01 pm

I agree with Charlie. My post was made in the context of an area where it is possible to attend a good quizbowl tournament most weekends, and was intended for that audience. I stand by it in that case, but some quizbowl-like activity (unless it's ethically corrupt or some other non-quizbowl-related flaw like that) is better than none.
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

User avatar
CometCoach72
Wakka
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:07 pm
Location: Southern IL

Re: Attending Bad Tournaments

Post by CometCoach72 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:28 pm

I had to make a very difficult decision with respect to a choice of tournaments for the end of this month (see Masonic thread under Illinois board). I gathered the facts and presented the options to my team, and they voted to go to a tournament that most members of this board would call "good quiz bowl" over one that the same members of this board would consider "bad quiz bowl." (I heard that cheer of excitement, my friends from Northern IL)

They did so for many reasons, free lunch and t-shirts, and much shorter drive time were the driving forces behind going to the "good quiz bowl" tournament. Never mind that I'm going to run two teams and give lots of students a chance to excel and enjoy themselves.

We do our own in-house tournament, and I choose to follow IHSA rules (with an exception on tiebreakers) and distribution because I schedule it pretty close to the IHSA Regional date. I'm also catering to an an audience that is comfortable with IHSA format and doesn't feel like they need a lot of bells and whistles that they feel ACF format provides. All of that having been said...the best I can do is host and operate a tournament that has quality moderators, and continue to grow it over time.

Speaking while wearing the TD hat, I have to go with what is going to attract the most teams and provide the best possible competition. Since my date is close enough to IHSA State Series, I feel that I owe it to my fellow coaches to provide them something that is going to be of most benefit to their teams (and mine as well).

It's not an easy thing to balance...but...we do what we can, especially when you have so many small schools in Southern IL that do not appreciate the ACF format.
Jay Winter
Greenville HS (IL) Scholastic Bowl Coach and Chief UN Translator for Math
Decatur MacArthur Class of 1990 - Illinois State Class of 1994 - MS Ed SIU Edwardsville 2010
Harley-Davidson owner since 2009
Fan of Good Questions

Locked