Japanese Names

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Japanese Names

Post by Ted » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:02 pm

I know that this is an oddly specific question for a whole thread, but for Japanese Names, which part of the name can be given as the correct answer? Is the name generally expressed with the given name first and surname second? For example, could I give "Basho" for Matsuo Basho?
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:08 pm

Ted wrote:I know that this is an oddly specific question for a whole thread, but for Japanese Names, which part of the name can be given as the correct answer? Is the name generally expressed with the given name first and surname second? For example, could I give "Basho" for Matsuo Basho?
In Japanese, order does not matter, but family vs given name is still important. Despite his family name being Matsuo, my understanding is that Basho is still correct because it the name he wrote under. When in doubt, give the family name.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by at your pleasure » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Or just give both given and family names.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:24 pm

But for an inexperienced or novice player trying to learn clues/answers, it can be difficult to remember ANY names, let alone a Japanese name they've never seen before. They shouldn't have to say Junichiro Tanizaki if just "Tanazaki" is acceptable, especially if they're confident on that first name and might end up switching up consonants or something. I can't tell you how many times in practice i've had to say "incorrect" for my freshmen and sophomores who just don't know how to pronounce a name and end up switching the order or a couple letters. We shouldn't be finding ways to make answers wrong, we should be finding more ways to make them right. Answers, especially difficult ones of foreign names, should except all responses that indicate a clear knowledge.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by kayli » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:50 am

From what I learned from anime, you're supposed to refer to people by their last name unless you're really familiar with them. So I guess you should refer to them by surname only or surname then given name (as per Eastern tradition) or given name then surname (as per Western tradition), but I don't think just given name should be accepted.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Wall of Ham » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:57 am

Perhaps, due to the naming system and the fact that sometimes either order is used for Asian names, the first name should be promptable?
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Tanay » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:59 am

Wall of Ham wrote:Perhaps, due to the naming system and the fact that sometimes either order is used for Asian names, the first name should be promptable?
I agree. Saying "Junichiro" instead of "Tanizaki" doesn't indicate a lack of knowledge on the topic matter. Unless there comes a prominent author whose last name is Junichiro, in which case it becomes interesting...
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:02 am

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I'mma just stop you there, hm?
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Not That Kind of Christian!! » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:09 am

Wall of Ham wrote:Perhaps, due to the naming system and the fact that sometimes either order is used for Asian names, the first name should be promptable?
First names are usually promptable for anyone, no matter the ethnicity.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:12 am

Not That Kind of Christian!! wrote:
Wall of Ham wrote:Perhaps, due to the naming system and the fact that sometimes either order is used for Asian names, the first name should be promptable?
First names are usually promptable for anyone, no matter the ethnicity.
But wouldn't this mean if somebody had two first names (i.e. Dylan Thomas) and you couldn't remember which order they were in you could just say one of them and thus automatically get it right after being prompted on Dylan or having Thomas accepted?
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Mettius Fufetius » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:18 am

Frater Taciturnus wrote:
Ted wrote:I know that this is an oddly specific question for a whole thread, but for Japanese Names, which part of the name can be given as the correct answer? Is the name generally expressed with the given name first and surname second? For example, could I give "Basho" for Matsuo Basho?
In Japanese, order does not matter, but family vs given name is still important. Despite his family name being Matsuo, my understanding is that Basho is still correct because it the name he wrote under. When in doubt, give the family name.
That's my understanding of it. Sometimes Japanese authors adopt pseudonyms as given names and retain their surnames. Often, those authors are referred to by those pseudonyms almost exclusively, so giving those is acceptable. But giving authors' birth surnames is also acceptable, since that's standard practice in quizbowl. Say Matsuo or Basho, just don't say his given name, Kinsaku. (There's also the one-off pseudonym Soubou.) A similar example that's tripped up some editors in the past is Natsume Souseki, who was born Natsume Kinnosuke. Souseki and Natsume are acceptable answers; Kinnosuke is not. Souseki's case is especially tricky because Natsume is occasionally used as a given name in modern Japan.

Another slightly confusing aspect is archaic noble names, often with "no", like the shogun Minamoto no Yoritomo or the poet Ki no Tsurayuki. Honorary names like Minamoto are, as far as I can discern, roughly analogous to noble titles like "Duke of York." In both cases, the titles are usually prompted by themselves, just because multiple famous people usually had them. So providing the full name (or just the given name, if the title has already been provided) is usually a good strategy for the famous noblemen with really famous titles. On the other hand, if there were ever a bonus part on Ki no Tsurayuki (hey, ACF Regionals had a bonus part on the Tosa Diary back in 2000!), I'd be inclined to accept either name, as I believe he's by far the most famous Ki. (He's usually just called Tsurayuki, though.)
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Duke Togo » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:31 am

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Re: Japanese Names

Post by jonpin » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:37 am

Extinction threshold wrote:
Not That Kind of Christian!! wrote:
Wall of Ham wrote:Perhaps, due to the naming system and the fact that sometimes either order is used for Asian names, the first name should be promptable?
First names are usually promptable for anyone, no matter the ethnicity.
But wouldn't this mean if somebody had two first names (i.e. Dylan Thomas) and you couldn't remember which order they were in you could just say one of them and thus automatically get it right after being prompted on Dylan or having Thomas accepted?
I'm not familiar with first names being promptable in general, but your example is poor. I'm pretty sure you can provide "last name, first name". For instance, if I said Clinton, Bill, it would be acceptable. So you could say the two names in either order and likely get it accepted as "Dylan Thomas" or "Thomas, Dylan".
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Wall of Ham » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:38 am

Not That Kind of Christian!! wrote:
Wall of Ham wrote:Perhaps, due to the naming system and the fact that sometimes either order is used for Asian names, the first name should be promptable?
First names are usually promptable for anyone, no matter the ethnicity.
This is what I originally thought, but many times I've only given the first name and yet was ruled incorrect without prompting. I thought there was a NAQT or ACF rule about this, but looking them over I can't find anything.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:41 am

Not That Kind of Christian!! wrote:
Wall of Ham wrote:Perhaps, due to the naming system and the fact that sometimes either order is used for Asian names, the first name should be promptable?
First names are usually promptable for anyone, no matter the ethnicity.
Moderators sometimes do this, which probably led to this perception--but I don't think it actually is what is supposed to happen.
ACF Rules wrote: 4. For names from cultures in which the family name precedes the given name, such as
Chinese or Japanese names, the family name is necessary to receive credit for a correct
response. The player can give either the native order of naming, with family name first, or
the Anglicized order, with family name last, as an acceptable answer. An answer of the
given name only will not be accepted or prompted, unless the person is widely known by
a pseudonym consisting of his given name, which is acceptable under rule G.16.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Captain Sinico » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:46 am

Yeah, I'm not aware of any set of rules that gives a prompt on someone's personal name, unless they're widely known by that name or something. I don't know where people got that idea.

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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Wall of Ham » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:59 am

Captain Sinico wrote:Yeah, I'm not aware of any set of rules that gives a prompt on someone's personal name, unless they're widely known by that name or something. I don't know where people got that idea.

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In theory though, isn't the given name a partial answer that's ambivalent and needs prompting? If a person says the first name, even if the answer is not commonly know by that name, it still reflects some knowledge of the answer. Prompting the first name is reducing a field of people with that name to the specific answer desired, similar to prompting on the answer of last name Bacon.

But then again, I suppose I see the need for this rule. If a player gives Sinclair as an answer, does he mean Upton Sinclair or Sinclair Lewis, two people, due to their similar professions, often confused (especially by me). Eliminating the answer of the first name eliminates the possiblity a player answering Sinclair and knowing he'd either be accepted or prompted without any true knowledge of the difference between the two.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Captain Sinico » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:00 am

No.

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Re: Japanese Names

Post by theMoMA » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:01 am

Sorice and I squared off in a long-ago debate about whether first names should be promptable when it's not clear which one is the family name. I was of the mind that people can know a lot about Mao without knowing that his family name is "Mao" and not "Zedong," but I've come around. If you don't know what the person's actual name is, sorry, you don't get points. Take it as a learning lesson. The only time I can see generously prompting is if the audience is so overwhelmingly composed of new players with fragile attitudes who might be scared off if they are punished for not knowing someone's name correctly. But unless you're running a middle school or high school novice set, people who don't know enough to get points should not get points.

Also, I should add, people who are known by their first names are the exceptions to this rule.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Wall of Ham » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:08 am

theMoMA wrote:Sorice and I squared off in a long-ago debate about whether first names should be promptable when it's not clear which one is the family name. I was of the mind that people can know a lot about Mao without knowing that his family name is "Mao" and not "Zedong," but I've come around. If you don't know what the person's actual name is, sorry, you don't get points. Take it as a learning lesson. The only time I can see generously prompting is if the audience is so overwhelmingly composed of new players with fragile attitudes who might be scared off if they are punished for not knowing someone's name correctly. But unless you're running a middle school or high school novice set, people who don't know enough to get points should not get points.

Also, I should add, people who are known by their first names are the exceptions to this rule.
Thank you, having not really heard this debate before, this reasoning makes a lot more sense than:
Captain Sinico wrote:No.

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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Ringil » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:58 am

One rule I don't quite understand is why for many Chinese names, the answer line often only contains the last name.

For example, at ACF Fall, there was a bonus part on Chiang Kai-shek's son, Chiang Chin-kuo.
[10] This president of Taiwan succeeded his father as chairman of the Kuomintang in 1975 and allowed opposition parties to form. He met his Belarusian wife Faina as a student in Moscow.
ANSWER: Chiang Ching-kuo [or Jiang Jingguo; do not accept “Chiang Kai-shek” or “Jiang Jieshi”]
Only Chiang is underlined, even though that doesn't differentiate him from his father. I still managed to get 10 points on this even though I had no idea about his first name. This seems like an obvious loophole.

The example I gave isn't an isolated case either. Similar stuff happens for Liu Shaoqi, Lin Biao, Zhou Enlai, and others in various packets throughout the year. The one exception I can think of for this is Mao, since that is what he is known as in the West and sometimes even in China.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by ... and the chaos of Mexican modernity » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:53 am

For Japanese it can be said that prompting can also come in with historical figures. For example prompting on Toyotomi for a tu for Hideyoshi because Hideyori Toyotomi is just as notable at a college and to a lesser extent at a high school level. I though believe that when it comes down to it, something like Tokugawa, Ashikaga, or Taira can be accepted despite some other figures by that family name (Hidetada, Yoshitsune, Kiyomori). Though I guess it does raise a good question with family names being prompted.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by jonpin » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:16 am

Wall of Ham wrote:Thank you, having not really heard this debate before, this reasoning makes a lot more sense than:
Captain Sinico wrote:No.

MaS
Well you were saying that first names are always promptable, which has never been true. If there's a tossup on a basketball player and I buzz in and say "Michael", that's just not acceptable.

NAQT correctness guidelines C3: First names are rarely acceptable or promptable, except where they coincide with regnal names. Among the exceptions to this rule are figures like Galileo, Raphael, and Dante who lived in eras when the use of surnames was less well established.
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Captain Sinico » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:43 pm

Wall of Ham wrote:Thank you, having not really heard this debate before, this reasoning makes a lot more sense than:
Captain Sinico wrote:No.
"How dare you answer my yes-or-no question directly and promptly!" Well played, sir. If you want to know my reasoning, please ask next time.

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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Captain Sinico » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:58 pm

Japanese and Chinese (and Hungarian and Javanese and any other relevant naming scheme) names should be treated the same as other names. For example, the point is absolutely right that, under any sensible system of answer accepting, that execrable question on Chiang Kai-shek's son should have prompted (only) on Chaing, but that seems more a matter of the mis-underlining endemic to quizbowl, probably resulting in this case from a knowing stretch of the underlining rules due to someone wanting to boost conversion of their question on Chiang Kai-shek's son, than it is any problem with Chinese names per se. All Zach's stuff about Japanese dudes doesn't make much sense to me. The rules you should go by are simple: if someone is generally known by their personal name, that should be acceptable; otherwise, not. If there are other potentially conflatable people referred to by the same name, you should prompt on it.

I think Andrew has made the best point here. Coaches should consider this a teachable moment. Tell your players, as I tell our new players when necessary: "Some cultures usually place the family name first and this person comes from one, so you've got to be aware of that." I don't think there's some kind of shortcut to figuring out which name is which outside of being aware of that; conversely, I am sure that it would be wrong to change the rules regarding what's acceptable to suit that lack of learning.

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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Ted » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:51 pm

Wow, thanks a lot! I'm surprised at the number of people who responded
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Ringil » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:32 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:Japanese and Chinese (and Hungarian and Javanese and any other relevant naming scheme) names should be treated the same as other names. For example, the point is absolutely right that, under any sensible system of answer accepting, that execrable question on Chiang Kai-shek's son should have prompted (only) on Chaing, but that seems more a matter of the mis-underlining endemic to quizbowl, probably resulting in this case from a knowing stretch of the underlining rules due to someone wanting to boost conversion of their question on Chiang Kai-shek's son, than it is any problem with Chinese names per se. All Zach's stuff about Japanese dudes doesn't make much sense to me. The rules you should go by are simple: if someone is generally known by their personal name, that should be acceptable; otherwise, not. If there are other potentially conflatable people referred to by the same name, you should prompt on it.
MaS
I have some examples to demonstrate that terrible underlining is endemic for Chinese questions:
2008 Cardinal Classic wrote:Answer: Han Wudi [or Han Wu Ti, or Emperor Wu of Han, or Xioa Wu, or Liu Che, or Shizong, or Tong]
The underlining of just Liu is horrible since the whole Han dynasty had the last name Liu. That's like asking a question about James I and accepting Stuart
2008 July Crisis wrote:Answer: Liu Bang

Like Wudi, the whole dynasty was named Liu.
2009 ACF Nationals wrote:Answer: Empress Wu Zetian
The problem here is that if you just Wu, it could clearly also be Wu of Han from earlier.
ACF Regionals 2008 wrote:Answer: Liu Xiang

This one is clearly underlining the first name instead of the last name, inexplicably.
2008 IO wrote:Answer: Zhou Enlai
Underlining first name instead of last.
2008 Chicago Open wrote:Answer: Liu Shaoqi
I'm not so sure this is that bad because it's equivalent of confusing John Adams the founder of America with John Adams the composer by just saying Adams. However, the possibility exists that some poor person could confuse the Liu here with that of the Han Dynasty.

There's a bunch more, but I don't feel like typing them up again
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Re: Japanese Names

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:15 am

I have an incredibly difficult time memorizing names from foreign cultures, especially China. The fact that the family name comes first makes things even worse.

I often find that it helps me to memorize title + family name. For instance "Chairman Mao" is easier to memorize than Mao Tse-Tung, "Chancellor Li" is easier to memorize than Li Si, "Lord Shang" is easier to memorize than "Shang Yang", etc. Nobody is going to mistake "Chairman", "Chancellor", or "Lord" for a Chinese family name, so this ensures that the one name you memorize is the one that will get you ten points.
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