February Poll

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Re: February Poll

Post by jonah » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:36 am

There were 10 ballots, plus Glerum's stupid one.
1. Auburn A (100 points), all of the first place mentions, highest rank 1, lowest rank 1
2. Stevenson (88 points), highest rank 2, lowest rank 3
3. St. Ignatius (82 points), highest rank 2, lowest rank 3
4. Loyola (70 points), highest rank 4, lowest rank 4
5. Carbondale (58 points), highest rank 5, lowest rank 6
6. OPRF (49 points), highest rank 5, lowest rank 7
7. Lisle (35 points), highest rank 6, lowest rank 9
8. WWS (20 points), highest rank 6, lowest rank 10
9. Hobo (18 points), highest rank 8, lowest rank was unranked
10. Naperville Central (9 points), highest rank 7, lowest rank was unranked
Also mentioned: Niles North (8 points); New Trier (4 points); Auburn B, Litchfield, IMSA, Fremd (2 points each); Buffalo Grove (1 point)
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dayo Dankole » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:35 pm

So Top Five Teams overlooked in February poll? My vote:

1. Niles West - Never knew they were that good but you don't beat Ig without being a premier team.
2. Mahomet Seymour - Triumphed to take down the Regional at Champaign Centennial, the premier scholastic bowl program in east central Illinois.
3. IMSA - Highest scoring team in the state at regionals and 4th at Masonic State. They're probably in top 10 overall, right behind Naperville Central and WWS.
4. Normal (University) - Gave Morton a close game in Regional championship game.
5. Rockford Guilford - Upset Rockford Boylan at Rockford Boylan.

Top Five Teams overrated in February poll?

1. Buffalo Grove - Got tripled by Deerfield.
2. Niles North - Didn't even make Sectionals.
3. Ig - Didn't even make Sectionals.
4. Loyola - Barely beat Niles North, which was established above as overrated.
5. Hobo - I looked all over IHSA ScoreZone and couldn't find Hobo in there at all.

Amirite?
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Re: February Poll

Post by Edward Elric » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:57 am

Dayo Dankole wrote:So Top Five Teams overlooked in February poll? My vote:

3. IMSA - Highest scoring team in the state at regionals and 4th at Masonic State. They're probably in top 10 overall, right behind Naperville Central and WWS.

Top Five Teams overrated in February poll?

2. Niles North - Didn't even make Sectionals.
5. Hobo - I looked all over IHSA ScoreZone and couldn't find Hobo in there at all.

Amirite?
Ok to start IMSA beat down my alma mater (who is only so so this year) so it's only semi-impressive. I will be more impressed if they can get out of their sectional alive when they play WWS and NC.
Second, Niles North had one of the toughest regionals. They played Loyola (a top 5 team in the state) in the championship game and lost a very close one. That does not make them overrated.
You do realize what a Hobo means right? ...Right?
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:55 am

Generic Illinois Poster #205 wrote:
Dayo Dankole wrote:So Top Five Teams overlooked in February poll? My vote:

3. IMSA - Highest scoring team in the state at regionals and 4th at Masonic State. They're probably in top 10 overall, right behind Naperville Central and WWS.

Top Five Teams overrated in February poll?

2. Niles North - Didn't even make Sectionals.
5. Hobo - I looked all over IHSA ScoreZone and couldn't find Hobo in there at all.

Amirite?
Ok to start IMSA beat down my alma mater (who is only so so this year) so it's only semi-impressive. I will be more impressed if they can get out of their sectional alive when they play WWS and NC.
Second, Niles North had one of the toughest regionals. They played Loyola (a top 5 team in the state) in the championship game and lost a very close one. That does not make them overrated.
You do realize what a Hobo means right? ...Right?
:sad:
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Re: February Poll

Post by mlaird » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:17 pm

Dayo Dankole wrote:So Top Five Teams overlooked in February poll? My vote:

1. Niles West - Never knew they were that good but you don't beat Ig without being a premier team.
2. Mahomet Seymour - Triumphed to take down the Regional at Champaign Centennial, the premier scholastic bowl program in east central Illinois.
3. IMSA - Highest scoring team in the state at regionals and 4th at Masonic State. They're probably in top 10 overall, right behind Naperville Central and WWS.

Top Five Teams overrated in February poll?

2. Niles North - Didn't even make Sectionals.
3. Ig - Didn't even make Sectionals.
4. Loyola - Barely beat Niles North, which was established above as overrated.
5. Hobo - I looked all over IHSA ScoreZone and couldn't find Hobo in there at all.
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Re: February Poll

Post by New York Undercover » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:21 pm

Generic Illinois Poster #205 wrote:
Dayo Dankole wrote:So Top Five Teams overlooked in February poll? My vote:

3. IMSA - Highest scoring team in the state at regionals and 4th at Masonic State. They're probably in top 10 overall, right behind Naperville Central and WWS.

Top Five Teams overrated in February poll?

2. Niles North - Didn't even make Sectionals.
5. Hobo - I looked all over IHSA ScoreZone and couldn't find Hobo in there at all.

Amirite?
Ok to start IMSA beat down my alma mater (who is only so so this year) so it's only semi-impressive. I will be more impressed if they can get out of their sectional alive when they play WWS and NC.
Second, Niles North had one of the toughest regionals. They played Loyola (a top 5 team in the state) in the championship game and lost a very close one. That does not make them overrated.
You do realize what a Hobo means right? ...Right?
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Re: February Poll

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:02 pm

mlaird wrote:
Dayo Dankole wrote:So Top Five Teams overlooked in February poll? My vote:

1. Niles West - Never knew they were that good but you don't beat Ig without being a premier team.
2. Mahomet Seymour - Triumphed to take down the Regional at Champaign Centennial, the premier scholastic bowl program in east central Illinois.
3. IMSA - Highest scoring team in the state at regionals and 4th at Masonic State. They're probably in top 10 overall, right behind Naperville Central and WWS.

Top Five Teams overrated in February poll?

2. Niles North - Didn't even make Sectionals.
3. Ig - Didn't even make Sectionals.
4. Loyola - Barely beat Niles North, which was established above as overrated.
5. Hobo - I looked all over IHSA ScoreZone and couldn't find Hobo in there at all.
I love jokes.
It's even funnier when they're trying to be serious. Using IHSA and Masonics and etc. for this poll is not at all what was meant as it pretty DANG clearly says good quizbowl, so everything you said Dayo is laughably wrong because ur basis for comparisons sucks.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Geringer » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:30 am

Dayo Dankole wrote:So Top Five Teams overlooked in February poll? My vote:

1. Niles West - Never knew they were that good but you don't beat Ig without being a premier team.
2. Mahomet Seymour - Triumphed to take down the Regional at Champaign Centennial, the premier scholastic bowl program in east central Illinois.
3. IMSA - Highest scoring team in the state at regionals and 4th at Masonic State. They're probably in top 10 overall, right behind Naperville Central and WWS.
4. Normal (University) - Gave Morton a close game in Regional championship game.
5. Rockford Guilford - Upset Rockford Boylan at Rockford Boylan.

Top Five Teams overrated in February poll?

1. Buffalo Grove - Got tripled by Deerfield.
2. Niles North - Didn't even make Sectionals.
3. Ig - Didn't even make Sectionals.
4. Loyola - Barely beat Niles North, which was established above as overrated.
5. Hobo - I looked all over IHSA ScoreZone and couldn't find Hobo in there at all.

Amirite?
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dayo Dankole » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:06 pm

Ok, so I was a bit premature on Mahomet-Seymour, Niles West, Rockford Guilford, and (most likely) Normal University. However, FYP:

IMSA 434 St. Charles East 220
IMSA 403 Wheaton-Warrenville South 226
IMSA 416 Naperville Central 236

Impressed yet, Mike?

Also, my choice of Loyola as overrated has been confirmed.
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Re: February Poll

Post by abnormal abdomen » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:56 pm

Dayo Dankole wrote:Ok, so I was a bit premature on Mahomet-Seymour, Niles West, Rockford Guilford, and (most likely) Normal University. However, FYP:

IMSA 434 St. Charles East 220
IMSA 403 Wheaton-Warrenville South 226
IMSA 416 Naperville Central 236

Impressed yet, Mike?

Also, my choice of Loyola as overrated has been confirmed.
I don't think you understand. The reason why people are rejecting your statements is that you're using the IHSA state series and the Masonic state series as your sample. The fact that you use these as viable sources is nothing short of laughable.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Charley Pride » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:10 pm

Dayo Dankole wrote:Stupid things.
I'm going to go ahead and say you're dumb, because this is so idiotic that it's fair for me to maintain the assumption that this is a joke account. I trust this assumption absolves me of any retribution for violating HSQB's ad hominem rules.

EDIT: Typolimination.
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Re: February Poll

Post by jdeliverer » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:14 pm

Charley Pride wrote:
Dayo Dankole wrote:Stupid things.
I'm going to go ahead and say you're dumb, because this is so idiotic that it's fair for me to maintain the assumption that this is a joke account. I trust this assumption absolves me of any retribution for violating HSQB's ad hominem rules.

EDIT: Typolimination.
I hope this is true.
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Re: February Poll

Post by The Time Keeper » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:24 pm

Dayo Dankole wrote:Ok, so I was a bit premature on Mahomet-Seymour, Niles West, Rockford Guilford, and (most likely) Normal University. However, FYP:

IMSA 434 St. Charles East 220
IMSA 403 Wheaton-Warrenville South 226
IMSA 416 Naperville Central 236

Impressed yet, Mike?
I wanted to get an idea of how IMSA has been on real questions this year so I could try to sort out all the conflicting opinions in the Illinois polls after reading them but after a cursory search I only got one hit which was at Ultima in October. It looks like they used the Dunbar Fall set which from its discussion thread seemed to be not without some flaws but was obviously miles and miles away from Questions Galore or Avery type nonsense.

Having glanced at the stats from all the Dunbar mirrors, it looks like IMSA's bonus conversion was around that of teams who should be sneaking into the playoffs at HSNCT. From the sadly small sample size of real tournaments I have to work with right now, it seems like they can acquit themselves well on real quizbowl against decent teams as well as handily beat teams on whatever IHSA torments people with.

Has IMSA gone to any NAQT or HSAPQ events this year? Stats from those would help a ton in terms of both seeing their production on good questions and seeing how they compare to other teams around the country since those sets are used everywhere. I'm hoping my quick skim through Illinois QB results missed a tournament or two.

I checked the HSNCT current field page and most of the usual Illinois suspects are signed up already although a few aren't and of course there's still plenty of time for teams to qualify and register. Is IMSA planning on attending? I hope they take advantage of their proximity to one of the two big national tournaments, it looks like they could help represent Illinois among the playoff caliber teams.
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Re: February Poll

Post by David Riley » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:31 pm

I could be mistaken, but I don't recall seeing IMSA at any other HSAPQ or NAQT events in Illinois this year, or any of the mirrors (e.g. Harvard Mirror at Auburn, Prison Bowl at NIU). There are some tournment hosts who will not invite IMSA (because of the way they [used to?] recruit students), but I don't think that applies to these tournaments.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:37 pm

Sorry to be that guy, but of course there isn't anything else with IMSA. That IMSA even played the DAFT mirror was amazing - they showed up juuuuuuust in the nick of time and there wasn't a soul in the tournament who was surprised at their tardiness. They bring teams to tournaments on the "if you show up Sat. morning, we'll bring you along" system, which ensures that they regularly play without their full team when they do play.

When they do play, it's bad - they took 3rd at Fremd, on the worst question set I've seen this year (although Masonics isn't far behind). They regularly attend Orion's tournaments in lieu of tourneys much closer geographically with much better competition on much better questions.

I've said a lot of nasty things here, and while I know that they all have been true, I've also heard a rumor that it's a new coach, and so maybe change will come, although there's been no rumor to dispel anything I've posted. If you know otherwise, contradict me.
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Re: February Poll

Post by CometCoach72 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:20 pm

Dayo Dankole wrote:Ok, so I was a bit premature on Mahomet-Seymour, Niles West, Rockford Guilford, and (most likely) Normal University. However, FYP:

IMSA 434 St. Charles East 220
IMSA 403 Wheaton-Warrenville South 226
IMSA 416 Naperville Central 236

Impressed yet, Mike?

Also, my choice of Loyola as overrated has been confirmed.

I'm not impressed; not one bit at all. My guess is that you are referencing IMSA's history in the IHSA State Series, and this is the first year in a long time they've made noise of any variety in our fair state's...AHEM...playoff/bear trap. The argument you have put forward is weak and does not contain enough of a sample size for anyone to justify your statements. So, when IMSA starts playing on better questions and winning, let me know. Don't misunderstand me; bravo to IMSA for winning their sectional, but I can't (and won't) put them in the elite team conversation at this moment in time. Fischer references the "new coach factor;" IMSA had a revolving door at head coach even when they were winning the IHSA Tournament.

So far as Loyola being overrated, wow. I couldn't disagree more. I was absolutely astounded to read those words. Are you really suggesting that a team that has one loss in Sectional play and doesn't make the State Finals is overrated, especially when some of those teams (Litchfield, OPRF, Glenwood, Latin) have played and been successful on good questions this year? I am not going to claim to be an expert on all things Class AA in Illinois, but I know enough to know that Loyola is NOT overrated.
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Re: February Poll

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:23 am

But for 3 parts of a 5 part bonus (or aggregation thereof), Loyola would be going downstate, instead of New Trier. Would you call New Trier overrated, too? :roll:
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Re: February Poll

Post by Charles Martel » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:04 am

Moving Day wrote:But for 3 parts of a 5 part bonus (or aggregation thereof), Loyola would be going downstate, instead of New Trier. Would you call New Trier overrated, too? :roll:
New Trier wasn't #4 on the list that was made, Loyola was. Loyola was overrated as #4, New Trier was not overrated as not ranked.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:08 pm

David Riley wrote:There are some tournment hosts who will not invite IMSA (because of the way they [used to?] recruit students...)
I'm unaware of this. We (Illinois) are leery about IMSA because they've twice failed to show up to our tournaments with zero notice. They're still welcome to attend, but we will be requiring some kind of deposit from them in future, since their team no-showing with no notice and refusing to answer their provided cell number has cost us money, re-scheduling stress, and the ability to start on time in the past.

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Re: February Poll

Post by David Riley » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:48 pm

True, although the no-shows are a more recent phenomenon, and I think others will be following suit of either requiring a deposit or having a non-refundable check in hand before they are officially registered for the tournament.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:58 pm

whitesoxfan wrote:
Moving Day wrote:But for 3 parts of a 5 part bonus (or aggregation thereof), Loyola would be going downstate, instead of New Trier. Would you call New Trier overrated, too? :roll:
New Trier wasn't #4 on the list that was made, Loyola was. Loyola was overrated as #4, New Trier was not overrated as not ranked.
Not true, dude. No one gives any consideration to the state series when making rankings. You shouldn't, either. Whoever wins state this Friday will have done nothing to change their standing among Illinois teams in any way whatsoever.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dominator » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:50 pm

Pat Freeburn wrote: Having glanced at the stats from all the Dunbar mirrors, it looks like IMSA's bonus conversion was around that of teams who should be sneaking into the playoffs at HSNCT. From the sadly small sample size of real tournaments I have to work with right now, it seems like they can acquit themselves well on real quizbowl against decent teams as well as handily beat teams on whatever IHSA torments people with.

I checked the HSNCT current field page and most of the usual Illinois suspects are signed up already although a few aren't and of course there's still plenty of time for teams to qualify and register. Is IMSA planning on attending? I hope they take advantage of their proximity to one of the two big national tournaments, it looks like they could help represent Illinois among the playoff caliber teams.
Nice to "meet" you, Mr. Freeburn. My name is Noah Prince, I am the NEW coach of IMSA's Scholastic Bowl team (I took over at the end of September this year).

The quick answer to your question is no, we will not be playing the HSNCT this year, but we hope to be more involved with this circuit in future years. The unfortunate reason we aren't playing this year is that, due to any number of unfortunate circumstances, we could not make any, even though we did want to. For example, every so often, we have "extended weekends" during which the students are kicked out and redistributed to their parents across the state, making it impossible for me to gather a team. This happened on October 10 (HSAPQ tourneys in Bettendorf and Champaign) and February 13 (Wildcat). We were not invited to a Kickoff as I was not a member of IHSSBCA (I guess I dropped the ball on that one; it's one of those new coach kind of errors.). There were others we tried to sign up for after they were full. Basically, we wanted to play "good quizbowl", but it just did not work out this year. Hopefully, next year's schedules and my level of competence will be more conducive to our participation.

That being said, I find the sort of conversations about IMSA it this forum incredibly disheartening. I am a second-year teacher at IMSA. I inherited a scholastic bowl program in shambles and in the course of a year got it to put up a pretty damn respectable record. I know that I have not done enough to impress many of you, but I and my kids have worked our bobcats off to do what we did this year, and I'll call this year a win for us. Next year I hope to many of you more on the HSAPQ circuit; my team and I are both looking forward to the competition.

If interest of this forum is really in promoting scholastic bowl throughout the state of Illinois, then it ought to support new coaches and help them find their footing, rather than bashing their teams. I'll respond to some of the specific accusations in an upcoming post. I must say, though, that reading these forums certainly does not have me jumping to get involved in a circuit with Greenville, Auburn, and Winnebago. In that sense, I'm not sure these forums are really pulling Illinois quizbowl together rather than polarizing it.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dominator » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:22 pm

As promised, I will address some of the attacks on IMSA that have been put forth.
David Riley wrote:There are some tournment hosts who will not invite IMSA (because of the way they [used to?] recruit students), but I don't think that applies to these tournaments.
I have heard these allegations before, but only on forums and unmoderated wikis. I personally have no knowledge of this practice ever having occurred at IMSA. I did know my predecessor as coach, Dr. Czerny, and I think all who knew him know that he did not care enough about scholastic bowl to try to recruit. I personally have no influence on admissions. In fact, I have twice been asked to serve on IMSA's admissions committee and have twice declined; I want nothing to do with that process. So, for at least six years, this practice has not occurred (unless someone other than a scholastic bowl coach is pulling strings for us). I understand that IMSA will never rid itself of such rumors, and that it goes with the territory. For example, two times this year at frosh-soph tourneys, I played against students applying to IMSA. I wished them good luck, as I do to all applicants, but I left it at that. Could I have lobbied to have them receive favor during the admissions process? I don't know, but I'm guessing I probably could (heck, I could have served on the admissions committee), but I didn't. If anyone now accuses IMSA of recruiting in scholastic bowl, understand that you are now directly calling my honor into question, and I do not take kindly to such accusations.
Captain Sinico wrote:We (Illinois) are leery about IMSA because they've twice failed to show up to our tournaments with zero notice. They're still welcome to attend, but we will be requiring some kind of deposit from them in future, since their team no-showing with no notice and refusing to answer their provided cell number has cost us money, re-scheduling stress, and the ability to start on time in the past.
I'm sorry about IMSA's past. I would appreciate a new start. For your sake, I will be happy to provide a deposit in the future to help ease your mind, but I hope that you will quickly see that won't be necessary with my IMSA regime.
David Riley wrote:True, although the no-shows are a more recent phenomenon, and I think others will be following suit of either requiring a deposit or having a non-refundable check in hand before they are officially registered for the tournament.
There have been 0 no-shows this year. Twice I was late. Unfortunately, once was Ultima (I was confused on the start time). The other time, I got lost in the wilderness of western Illinois. Yes, tardiness is part of IMSA culture. I'm working on it.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:44 pm

Dominator wrote:
Pat Freeburn wrote: Having glanced at the stats from all the Dunbar mirrors, it looks like IMSA's bonus conversion was around that of teams who should be sneaking into the playoffs at HSNCT. From the sadly small sample size of real tournaments I have to work with right now, it seems like they can acquit themselves well on real quizbowl against decent teams as well as handily beat teams on whatever IHSA torments people with.

I checked the HSNCT current field page and most of the usual Illinois suspects are signed up already although a few aren't and of course there's still plenty of time for teams to qualify and register. Is IMSA planning on attending? I hope they take advantage of their proximity to one of the two big national tournaments, it looks like they could help represent Illinois among the playoff caliber teams.
Nice to "meet" you, Mr. Freeburn. My name is Noah Prince, I am the NEW coach of IMSA's Scholastic Bowl team (I took over at the end of September this year).

The quick answer to your question is no, we will not be playing the HSNCT this year, but we hope to be more involved with this circuit in future years. The unfortunate reason we aren't playing this year is that, due to any number of unfortunate circumstances, we could not make any, even though we did want to. For example, every so often, we have "extended weekends" during which the students are kicked out and redistributed to their parents across the state, making it impossible for me to gather a team. This happened on October 10 (HSAPQ tourneys in Bettendorf and Champaign) and February 13 (Wildcat). We were not invited to a Kickoff as I was not a member of IHSSBCA (I guess I dropped the ball on that one; it's one of those new coach kind of errors.). There were others we tried to sign up for after they were full. Basically, we wanted to play "good quizbowl", but it just did not work out this year. Hopefully, next year's schedules and my level of competence will be more conducive to our participation.

That being said, I find the sort of conversations about IMSA it this forum incredibly disheartening. I am a second-year teacher at IMSA. I inherited a scholastic bowl program in shambles and in the course of a year got it to put up a pretty damn respectable record. I know that I have not done enough to impress many of you, but I and my kids have worked our bobcats off to do what we did this year, and I'll call this year a win for us. Next year I hope to many of you more on the HSAPQ circuit; my team and I are both looking forward to the competition.

If interest of this forum is really in promoting scholastic bowl throughout the state of Illinois, then it ought to support new coaches and help them find their footing, rather than bashing their teams. I'll respond to some of the specific accusations in an upcoming post. I must say, though, that reading these forums certainly does not have me jumping to get involved in a circuit with Greenville, Auburn, and Winnebago. In that sense, I'm not sure these forums are really pulling Illinois quizbowl together rather than polarizing it.
I've hear good things about the future of IMSA, too. Not that my criticisms were never of IMSA; I was merely questioning Dayo Dankole's touting of IMSA on an invalid basis. I'm well aware of the potential your team has, espcially considering the vast pool of talent your school possesses.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Important Bird Area » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:51 pm

Dominator wrote:no, we will not be playing the HSNCT this year, but we hope to be more involved with this circuit in future years. The unfortunate reason we aren't playing this year is that, due to any number of unfortunate circumstances, we could not make any, even though we did want to. For example, every so often, we have "extended weekends" during which the students are kicked out and redistributed to their parents across the state, making it impossible for me to gather a team. This happened on October 10 (HSAPQ tourneys in Bettendorf and Champaign) and February 13 (Wildcat). We were not invited to a Kickoff as I was not a member of IHSSBCA (I guess I dropped the ball on that one; it's one of those new coach kind of errors.). There were others we tried to sign up for after they were full. Basically, we wanted to play "good quizbowl", but it just did not work out this year. Hopefully, next year's schedules and my level of competence will be more conducive to our participation.
Please note that you are always welcome to apply for a wildcard bid to HSNCT.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Deviant Insider » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:22 pm

Coach Prince, welcome to the boards. A word of advice: Many of the people you are arguing with are high school and college students. Nobody is accusing you of improper behavior--the allegations of IMSA recruitment date back many years and were always extremely vague and never had anything to do with you, Coach Czerny, or, as far as I could tell, any IMSA Coach.

IMSA has attended tournaments at New Trier in the past and is always welcome to do so in the future. You probably would also be welcome at tournaments at NIU in late April and Rockford Auburn in early May if you are interested.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:28 pm

I'd like to answer for the attacks I made in my post upthread. As you've said, you've inherited a program in shambles, and it's those shambles that we've been referring to and unfairly extrapolating to this year. As a new coach, you do deserve a fresh start, not perpetuation of stereotypes. As you noted, Dr. Czerny had a less-than-stellar relationship with scholastic bowl, and so when IMSA was late to Ultima in October I didn't bat an eye. Of course, I didn't know that Dr. Czerny was out, and I sadly didn't make any effort to find that out.

I'm a Winnebago alum, but I don't speak for them at all. You'll probably run into them at State on Friday - if so, don't let my earlier vitriol temper that meeting. Coaches Niemeier and Fay are two of the nicest coaches I know, and they'd love to wish you well, both at State and in years to come.

I do, however, speak for Northern Illinois University's quizbowl team, and I don't want that post to stand as NIU's relationship with IMSA. If you're able, we'd love to have your team attend our pre-nationals tournament on April 24th. If you're interested, let me know and I'll send you further information.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Charley Pride » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:42 pm

styxman wrote:If you're able, we'd love to have your team attend our pre-nationals tournament on April 24th. If you're interested, let me know and I'll send you further information.
Same for the Ben Cooper mirror that still lacks a name.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:52 pm

Dominator wrote:
That being said, I find the sort of conversations about IMSA it this forum incredibly disheartening. I am a second-year teacher at IMSA. I inherited a scholastic bowl program in shambles and in the course of a year got it to put up a pretty damn respectable record. I know that I have not done enough to impress many of you, but I and my kids have worked our asses off to do what we did this year, and I'll call this year a win for us. Next year I hope to many of you more on the HSAPQ circuit; my team and I are both looking forward to the competition.
We, of course, also look forward to playing you and congratulate you on your advancement to IHSA States. I also would like to commend your effort on trying to get into good quizbowl, and would hope that you look into those two tournaments you are being reccomended to, ATROPHY and whatever cooky name Zahed comes up with. The reason we are not impressed with your performance is that these forums are not specifically dedicated to scholastic bowl, or even Illinois as you can see from the fact it is a national forum, but rather the good quizbowl you speak of. We believe that good quizbowl is so different from scholastic bowl, that we don't even use scholastic bowl results in our conversations of good quizbowl, thus the only result we have for your team is your performance at Ultima, which was not all that spectacular.
Dominator wrote: If interest of this forum is really in promoting scholastic bowl throughout the state of Illinois
As previously stated, this is not for scholastic bowl but rather good quizbowl. Lots of us are trying to spread good quizbowl throughout Illinois and thus we don't put much importance on IHSA at all, which is why we were refuting the assertion that your team is amazing (as Matt from Lake Park so graciously pointed out) based on results from IHSA, since many of us don't care about them in the slightest as they do not absolutely pertain to the discussion taking place on these boards. If Matt was saying that your team was a good IHSA team, we'd have to certainly agree as you have put up some very good numbers and your school (at least from what I can tell by the name) is very well suited to the heavy math-science distribution that IHSA writes to.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:55 pm

Trying to be as respectable and friendly as possible here, because I want you guys to feel welcomed to the good quizbowl community and not scared or offended.
Dominator wrote:Basically, we wanted to play "good quizbowl", but it just did not work out this year.
Dominator wrote:put up a pretty damn respectable record.
But most of your wins came from Fremd Varsity and the IHSA state series, no? You admittedly did not play good quizbowl, but still call your record "respectable?" Does not compute. I hope that you and your players truly understand what makes good quizbowl good. Y'all can celebrate, but you shouldn't find any legitimacy in the "successes" you've had this year.
Dominator wrote:worked our bobcats off
No swearing in the high school section. My innocent eyes can't see this.

edit: quotes
Last edited by Dan-Don on Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:59 pm

Dan-Don wrote:
Dominator wrote:worked our bobcats off
No swearing in the high school section. My innocent eyes can't see this.
I suggest a change to bobcats.

EDIT: Sorry for almost making you edit out 3 posts by my quoting, so i will edit the quote myself.
Last edited by Boeing X-20, Please! on Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:09 am

Dan-Don wrote: No swearing in the high school section. My innocent eyes can't see this.
No backseat modding in the any section.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dominator » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:15 am

Not that I feel the need to respond to Dan-Don, but my A team did go 7-3 at Ultima, losing to Carbondale and Culver A in the morning and losing by 10 to New Trier in the afternoon in the match that decided the consolation round. Therefore, we're not without results outside of what you call "bad quizbowl", but we do suffer small sample size. Heck, even my B team was 5-5.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Captain Sinico » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:00 am

Dominator wrote:I'm sorry about IMSA's past. I would appreciate a new start. For your sake, I will be happy to provide a deposit in the future to help ease your mind, but I hope that you will quickly see that won't be necessary with my IMSA regime.
We're more than happy to forgive and forget given any evidence and of course understand that bad regime characteristics are not generally heritable. I'm very happy and excited to hear what you're saying on this thread. I hope if we can do anything help you marshal your powerful team toward the ends of promoting the right kind of game in the state, you'll say so.

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Re: February Poll

Post by David Riley » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:08 am

Ditto. Join the coaches' association and continue to scan these boards. There are at least eight "good" tournaments a year in Illinois, check out http://www.ihssbca.org for additional information. Let any of us here know what we can do to help; glad things are turning around there!
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Re: February Poll

Post by Dan-Don » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:37 am

Dominator wrote:Not that I feel the need to respond to Dan-Don, but my A team did go 7-3 at Ultima, losing to Carbondale and Culver A in the morning and losing by 10 to New Trier in the afternoon in the match that decided the consolation round. Therefore, we're not without results outside of what you call "bad quizbowl", but we do suffer small sample size. Heck, even my B team was 5-5.
Ok, I apologize. I probably, nay definitely, should have checked out your record at Ultima. But this only bolsters what I was trying to point out. I'm guessing your A Team had little to no experience with good questions, and your B Team even less. Therefore those results are very respectable. I'm guessing this had much to do with their inherent talent, as well as your coaching skills. But the rest of your season is bad quizbowl, and it's not just "what call 'bad quizbowl.'" You want a fresh start in this community (not trying to sound elitist, I promise), but as you continue to parse these boards, you'll see that some of the things at which your team might excel (computational math, non-pyramidal tossups, IHSA bonuses, the "IHSA categories," what have you) are almost universally excepted to be poor, illegitimate forms of academic competion, and therefore an effrontery to everything scholastic bowl is supposed to be about. Believe it or not, we want another powerhouse team to be one of the teams that plays us on a near-weekendly basis by attending good tournaments. No one is jealous of your results or ranking, I assure you: all the teams whose names you see on people's signatures in this thread (Loyola, New Trier, Auburn, etc.) as well as others (Wheaton-Warrenville South, OPRF, Stevenson, Ignatius) almost certainly bear no ill-will or jealousy toward IMSA, and the most recent IHSSBCA coaches' poll as well as the results at Ultima reflect that, but Fremd Varsity and the IHSA State series do not. Don't let my sarcastic backseat modding trick you into thinking this isn't a welcoming bunch of people--it is. After all, just 13 months ago, I had played zero good tournaments and even liked IHSA format.

From reading this thread, I think it is abundanty clear that IMSA's program is going to get the fresh start it deserves. But the way to do that is not by arguing against people cirticizing your team's results (arguing with the people who criticized your team's no-shows and recruitment policies is different, obviously). You get that fresh start by joining the IHSSBCA, applying for a wild card bid to HSNCT, attending ATROPHY, attending the Ben Cooper mirror, and, most importantly, asking for help and advice from the wealth of supportive and intelligent people that can be found on these boards. Unfortunately, we're at a point in the history of Scholastic Bowl in which things are very polarized into two factions. I, personally, would be happy to provide you with the information about and the personal experiences that have put me in the "good" faction, which might be particularly convincing, given my aforementioned history. I also have some funds (and some fund-raising opportunities) that I could give you to help get your team on the right track this April/May and next season. I would also be more than happy to come in and give you guys a crash course in contemporary quizbowl, as well as the current "canon" of knowledge.

So, once again, I offer my apologies. I'm gonna do everything I can to make IMSA great. So will everyone on these boards, I predict. You just let us know.
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Re: February Poll

Post by The Time Keeper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:15 pm

Dominator wrote:
Pat Freeburn wrote: Having glanced at the stats from all the Dunbar mirrors, it looks like IMSA's bonus conversion was around that of teams who should be sneaking into the playoffs at HSNCT. From the sadly small sample size of real tournaments I have to work with right now, it seems like they can acquit themselves well on real quizbowl against decent teams as well as handily beat teams on whatever IHSA torments people with.

I checked the HSNCT current field page and most of the usual Illinois suspects are signed up already although a few aren't and of course there's still plenty of time for teams to qualify and register. Is IMSA planning on attending? I hope they take advantage of their proximity to one of the two big national tournaments, it looks like they could help represent Illinois among the playoff caliber teams.
Nice to "meet" you, Mr. Freeburn. My name is Noah Prince, I am the NEW coach of IMSA's Scholastic Bowl team (I took over at the end of September this year).

The quick answer to your question is no, we will not be playing the HSNCT this year, but we hope to be more involved with this circuit in future years. The unfortunate reason we aren't playing this year is that, due to any number of unfortunate circumstances, we could not make any, even though we did want to. For example, every so often, we have "extended weekends" during which the students are kicked out and redistributed to their parents across the state, making it impossible for me to gather a team. This happened on October 10 (HSAPQ tourneys in Bettendorf and Champaign) and February 13 (Wildcat). We were not invited to a Kickoff as I was not a member of IHSSBCA (I guess I dropped the ball on that one; it's one of those new coach kind of errors.). There were others we tried to sign up for after they were full. Basically, we wanted to play "good quizbowl", but it just did not work out this year. Hopefully, next year's schedules and my level of competence will be more conducive to our participation.

That being said, I find the sort of conversations about IMSA it this forum incredibly disheartening. I am a second-year teacher at IMSA. I inherited a scholastic bowl program in shambles and in the course of a year got it to put up a pretty damn respectable record. I know that I have not done enough to impress many of you, but I and my kids have worked our bobcats off to do what we did this year, and I'll call this year a win for us. Next year I hope to many of you more on the HSAPQ circuit; my team and I are both looking forward to the competition.

If interest of this forum is really in promoting scholastic bowl throughout the state of Illinois, then it ought to support new coaches and help them find their footing, rather than bashing their teams. I'll respond to some of the specific accusations in an upcoming post. I must say, though, that reading these forums certainly does not have me jumping to get involved in a circuit with Greenville, Auburn, and Winnebago. In that sense, I'm not sure these forums are really pulling Illinois quizbowl together rather than polarizing it.
Not being able to attend as many tournaments as you'd like is definitely understandable. Students have other commitments and being a school where students can come from all over the place can compound that. I don't think anyone in the thread was intending to attack the IMSA program, it looks more like various people were baffled/getting annoyed by forums user Dayo Dankole's posts and his emphasis on IHSA and Masonic questions in determining team strength and his followup of posting IMSA's IHSA results with what some others might have seen as an "I told you so" tone, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

I can speak for everyone when I say that we're glad to see you on the board. I don't think anyone here thinks IMSA has to earn a fresh start or anything like that, everyone just wants to see another good team at good tournaments, and it sounds like that's more likely now that you're heading up the program.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Charles Martel » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:54 pm

Edward Elric wrote: I will be more impressed if they can get out of their sectional alive when they play WWS and NC.
I believe this statement was the reason Dayo Dankole posted "impressed now?" when IMSA got out of their sectional.
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Re: February Poll

Post by The Time Keeper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:33 pm

whitesoxfan wrote:
Edward Elric wrote: I will be more impressed if they can get out of their sectional alive when they play WWS and NC.
I believe this statement was the reason Dayo Dankole posted "impressed now?" when IMSA got out of their sectional.
That makes sense then. Must have glossed over that post.
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Re: February Poll

Post by CometCoach72 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:23 pm

Dominator wrote:
Pat Freeburn wrote: Having glanced at the stats from all the Dunbar mirrors, it looks like IMSA's bonus conversion was around that of teams who should be sneaking into the playoffs at HSNCT. From the sadly small sample size of real tournaments I have to work with right now, it seems like they can acquit themselves well on real quizbowl against decent teams as well as handily beat teams on whatever IHSA torments people with.

I checked the HSNCT current field page and most of the usual Illinois suspects are signed up already although a few aren't and of course there's still plenty of time for teams to qualify and register. Is IMSA planning on attending? I hope they take advantage of their proximity to one of the two big national tournaments, it looks like they could help represent Illinois among the playoff caliber teams.
Nice to "meet" you, Mr. Freeburn. My name is Noah Prince, I am the NEW coach of IMSA's Scholastic Bowl team (I took over at the end of September this year).

The quick answer to your question is no, we will not be playing the HSNCT this year, but we hope to be more involved with this circuit in future years. The unfortunate reason we aren't playing this year is that, due to any number of unfortunate circumstances, we could not make any, even though we did want to. For example, every so often, we have "extended weekends" during which the students are kicked out and redistributed to their parents across the state, making it impossible for me to gather a team. This happened on October 10 (HSAPQ tourneys in Bettendorf and Champaign) and February 13 (Wildcat). We were not invited to a Kickoff as I was not a member of IHSSBCA (I guess I dropped the ball on that one; it's one of those new coach kind of errors.). There were others we tried to sign up for after they were full. Basically, we wanted to play "good quizbowl", but it just did not work out this year. Hopefully, next year's schedules and my level of competence will be more conducive to our participation.

That being said, I find the sort of conversations about IMSA it this forum incredibly disheartening. I am a second-year teacher at IMSA. I inherited a scholastic bowl program in shambles and in the course of a year got it to put up a pretty damn respectable record. I know that I have not done enough to impress many of you, but I and my kids have worked our bobcats off to do what we did this year, and I'll call this year a win for us. Next year I hope to many of you more on the HSAPQ circuit; my team and I are both looking forward to the competition.

If interest of this forum is really in promoting scholastic bowl throughout the state of Illinois, then it ought to support new coaches and help them find their footing, rather than bashing their teams. I'll respond to some of the specific accusations in an upcoming post. I must say, though, that reading these forums certainly does not have me jumping to get involved in a circuit with Greenville, Auburn, and Winnebago. In that sense, I'm not sure these forums are really pulling Illinois quizbowl together rather than polarizing it.
Charley Pride wrote: I've hear good things about the future of IMSA, too. Not that my criticisms were never of IMSA; I was merely questioning Dayo Dankole's touting of IMSA on an invalid basis. I'm well aware of the potential your team has, espcially considering the vast pool of talent your school possesses.
First and foremost, welcome to Coach Prince and congratulations on becoming IMSA's coach. I want to be clear with you that first and foremost, I am in absolutely no position to be getting into any kind of "contest" with anyone here about success and record, nor is my team anywhere near ready to be successful in high-level academic competition. Much like you, I am developing my program. Part of that process is observing and learning through many ways, including forums such as this one.

I understand that you might have taken exception to some of the things I posted and that's fine. If anything, I appreciate being able to read what you have posted since and you have sent a clear signal that IMSA is "under new management," so to speak. I agree with you that new coaches should get support. I am more than happy to apologize to you in this public forum if what I posted seemed to be less than supportive; I would chime in with the comments quoted above, that the poster who touted your team did so using results that are not accepted as a good barometer of what a team is capable of doing. While the IHSA tournament is clearly a part of our schedule in Illinois, the experience of the last three years have taught me that this tournament is not exactly fair to all of the teams who are involved. Additionally, the controversy over question quality has boiled over on several occasions in recent years, leading to the conclusion that the IHSA tournament is not the grand event that some people think it might be. Until our state's organization decides to make some changes, this talk will continue.

After reading your words and those of others on this site, it sounds like IMSA has found the right coach to get them back in that conversation again. With any luck, we'll be there too eventually.

Good luck on Friday.
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Re: February Poll

Post by cornfused » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:40 pm

whitesoxfan wrote:
Edward Elric wrote: I will be more impressed if they can get out of their sectional alive when they play WWS and NC.
I believe this statement was the reason Dayo Dankole posted "impressed now?" when IMSA got out of their sectional.
Who is Dayo, anyway?
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Re: February Poll

Post by New York Undercover » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:06 pm

Utahraptor wrote:Matt from Lake Park

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Re: February Poll

Post by Edward Elric » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:56 pm

There's a kid from IMSA named Bayo Bankole, so its either him under the name Matt from LPHS or some random kid from LPHS posting ITT.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Charley Pride » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:09 pm

Edward Elric wrote:There's a kid from IMSA named Bayo Bankole, so its either him under the name Matt from LPHS or some random kid from LPHS posting ITT.
Change his name to Michael Petrovich, because he's a supersleuth.
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Re: February Poll

Post by The Time Keeper » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:09 pm

I always assumed that in his signature, "LPHS" was just a really improbable mistyping of "IMSA" since he has posted about IMSA a few times and posted once from an imsa.edu IP at like 3:30 in the afternoon. Other theories are that he's an LPHS student who just really likes IMSA quizbowl and sometimes hangs out on their campus to post on the board or that he created a fake identity in order to talk up his team and throw around the word "overrated" in places that didn't make any sense anonymously. I think we can rule that one out though, because no one would do that.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Edward Elric » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:10 pm

Charley Pride wrote:
Edward Elric wrote:There's a kid from IMSA named Bayo Bankole, so its either him under the name Matt from LPHS or some random kid from LPHS posting ITT.
Change his name to Michael Petrovich, because he's a supersleuth.
Great spelling Zahed.
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Re: February Poll

Post by Monk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Pat Freeburn wrote:I always assumed that in his signature, "LPHS" was just a really improbable mistyping of "IMSA" since he has posted about IMSA a few times and posted once from an imsa.edu IP at like 3:30 in the afternoon. Other theories are that he's an LPHS student who just really likes IMSA quizbowl and sometimes hangs out on their campus to post on the board or that he created a fake identity in order to talk up his team and throw around the word "overrated" in places that didn't make any sense anonymously. I think we can rule that one out though, because no one would do that.
Since, as I recall, IMSA classes don't end until something like four, either he is lucky enough to not have a class scheduled around Mod 20 or he was posting from class (or it was a weekend or I-day).

Frankly, I don't expect IMSA to ever really be a power in quizbowl, since the best and brightest of IMSA are too busy working on original research to memorize lists of scientist's names.
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Re: February Poll

Post by abnormal abdomen » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:41 pm

Monk wrote:
Pat Freeburn wrote:I always assumed that in his signature, "LPHS" was just a really improbable mistyping of "IMSA" since he has posted about IMSA a few times and posted once from an imsa.edu IP at like 3:30 in the afternoon. Other theories are that he's an LPHS student who just really likes IMSA quizbowl and sometimes hangs out on their campus to post on the board or that he created a fake identity in order to talk up his team and throw around the word "overrated" in places that didn't make any sense anonymously. I think we can rule that one out though, because no one would do that.
Since, as I recall, IMSA classes don't end until something like four, either he is lucky enough to not have a class scheduled around Mod 20 or he was posting from class (or it was a weekend or I-day).

Frankly, I don't expect IMSA to ever really be a power in quizbowl, since the best and brightest of IMSA are too busy working on original research to memorize lists of scientist's names.
I disagree. Their new coach seems very driven, and they have the students/resources to become very good.
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Re: February Poll

Post by New York Undercover » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:45 pm

Monk wrote:Frankly, I don't expect IMSA to ever really be a power in quizbowl, since the best and brightest of IMSA are too busy working on original research to memorize lists of scientist's names.
You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what makes up SCIENCE! in quizbowl

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Re: February Poll

Post by Dominator » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:24 am

Jacopo Robusti wrote:
Monk wrote: Frankly, I don't expect IMSA to ever really be a power in quizbowl, since the best and brightest of IMSA are too busy working on original research to memorize lists of scientist's names.
I disagree. Their new coach seems very driven, and they have the students/resources to become very good.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Abid. Unfortunately for us, Jeremiah knows that of which he speaks. I'm still gonna try to prove him wrong though.
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