The Quizbowl Resource Center

Huang wrote:

Coach K wrote: I understand your method Sandy, I just don't believe it's that simple. My contention is that if there are two people that are close in a given area (for instance separated by a couple of points), then we need additional data to determine who better serves the team. I believe that we would get that data in a more meaningful way through smaller groups versus one large group.

Or we could just play more questions between the two.

Or decide based on who A)fills more gaps outside their specialty, B) is less neg-prone, or C)both.

How many rounds are contained in NASAT?

Kahloon wrote:How many rounds are contained in NASAT?

Probably 15 or 16, roughly comparable to other national championships.

I endorse the idea of having all the players in the same room. It will take less space, won't take as much time, and is much simpler. We can have a scorekeeper measure each category, and then take the best specialist in each of the big 3 categories. Also, the 4th player taken should be the one who best complements the other three. If multiple players seem to be close in a category, the one who makes the team should be the one who is the least neg prone and/or has a better all around game.

I like the idea of staring out in about three or four rooms and then getting the top 16 or so in one room.

Talked to Andy Lion from Russell, he's interested in it as well.

Am I the only one surprised/shocked that not one Manual kid has been mentioned here?

Inkana7 wrote:Am I the only one surprised/shocked that not one Manual kid has been mentioned here?

It's not like anyone was taking that list Scott made seriously. People who want to tryout will inevitably show up. I know for a fact that Shray is interested, if anyone cares to update that list.

Yeah, the list wasn't really meant to be given serious attention to.
It was more so we could know a rough number of people to expect and who to contact that is not on the forums.

Inkana7 wrote:Am I the only one surprised/shocked that not one Manual kid has been mentioned here?

There are several Manual players who are interested. It is important for this to be open to people beyond those simply active on this board. Is there a definitive time, room, etc?

The tryouts are certainly open to anyone who wants to participate.
This forum is just for discussion about format, etc.

Huang wrote:

Inkana7 wrote:Am I the only one surprised/shocked that not one Manual kid has been mentioned here?

It's not like anyone was taking that list Scott made seriously. People who want to tryout will inevitably show up. I know for a fact that Shray is interested, if anyone cares to update that list.

Oh, okay, I misread the title of that list.

Carry on.

ahunt wrote:

Inkana7 wrote:Am I the only one surprised/shocked that not one Manual kid has been mentioned here?

There are several Manual players who are interested. It is important for this to be open to people beyond those simply active on this board. Is there a definitive time, room, etc?

A couple of brief updates for everyone:

I have talked to several coaches across the state that have indicated that they will not allow their players to participate in the tryout if it is held on the Saturday of the state tournament. The feeling from these coaches is that they want their students to be ready for the competition on the following day and don't want to harm their team's chance to be successful on the very different Governor's Cup format. While some people may not agree with that stance, it would actively prevent several very good players from participating in the tryout and could potentially hurt the quality of the team we would submit.

In addition, we would have to get permission from KAAC/the Galt House to use any of the rooms (something that is very unlikely).

With that in mind, we will not be holding the tryout on the Saturday of state. In all likelihood, we are looking at one of the weekends immediately after State (either the 20th/21st or 27th/28th). HSAPQ has indicated that this is okay as long as we have informed them of the bid and have the team selected before April.

Susan, Joe, and I are currently working on getting everything organized and a date chosen. We will have more information before the end of the week and I'll make sure to e-mail it to you and some other coaches, Allison.

Coach K wrote: In all likelihood, we are looking at one of the weekends immediately after State (either the 20th/21st or 27th/28th).

Date to keep in mind: March 20th is Vanderbilt's tournament

Huang wrote:

Coach K wrote: In all likelihood, we are looking at one of the weekends immediately after State (either the 20th/21st or 27th/28th).

Date to keep in mind: March 20th is Vanderbilt's tournament

Thanks Sandy. If we have it that weekend it would have to be on Sunday (which is less than optimal).

I have a feeling that no matter what we do, there is no way everyone interested will be able to be present. Maybe we should have a back up plan or something through the internet? Have two tryouts?? (but i don't know how we could reasonably compare the results from 2 different tryouts). I mean, state was probably the best date (closest to serving 100% of the people who maybe interested), so I'm kind of disappointed that it didn't go through. I'm pretty sure the rooms thing can be worked out if there are less than 20 or so people trying out as we can use the hotel rooms the players stay at. The coach thing is a little tougher though.

dbarman wrote:I have a feeling that no matter what we do, there is no way everyone interested will be able to be present. Maybe we should have a back up plan or something through the internet? Have two tryouts?? (but i don't know how we could reasonably compare the results from 2 different tryouts). I mean, state was probably the best date (closest to serving 100% of the people who maybe interested), so I'm kind of disappointed that it didn't go through. I'm pretty sure the rooms thing can be worked out if there are less than 20 or so people trying out as we can use the hotel rooms the players stay at. The coach thing is a little tougher though.

That was sort of my feeling too, Ping (the rooms are workable, but the coaches are not). I think if we pick a date toward the end of the month then that gives the most people a chance to adjust plans and make it to a tryout. It sucks that some people will inevitably have to miss it, but that's probably going to happen no matter what.

How long are you all thinking tryouts would take?

Manual is just about 5 minutes away from the Galt House.... I'd have to get approval (which I don't think would be a problem), but we could host tryouts on the last day of State. I do agree that pretty much everyone who would be interested would be at state. We could also then promote the tryouts to everyone earlier in the weekend.

Thoughts?

ahunt wrote:How long are you all thinking tryouts would take?
Thoughts?

Other states have taken 6 hours for the entire tryout process.
Hopefully doing it after state would work, but there is bound to be some conflict. Especially from the coaches...

ahunt wrote:How long are you all thinking tryouts would take?

Manual is just about 5 minutes away from the Galt House.... I'd have to get approval (which I don't think would be a problem), but we could host tryouts on the last day of State. I do agree that pretty much everyone who would be interested would be at state. We could also then promote the tryouts to everyone earlier in the weekend.

Thoughts?

Having it after state creates an issue where teams aren't willing to stay so that one player can try out. Those that are willing to stay will have additional players who are bored/restless and that creates all sorts of problems for their coaches.

How in the heck would this tryout hurt a team's chances of doing well at State?

Coach K wrote:

ahunt wrote:How long are you all thinking tryouts would take?

Manual is just about 5 minutes away from the Galt House.... I'd have to get approval (which I don't think would be a problem), but we could host tryouts on the last day of State. I do agree that pretty much everyone who would be interested would be at state. We could also then promote the tryouts to everyone earlier in the weekend.

Thoughts?

Having it after state creates an issue where teams aren't willing to stay so that one player can try out. Those that are willing to stay will have additional players who are bored/restless and that creates all sorts of problems for their coaches.

That's fine... it was just a thought.... I never said it was a good thought... :)

Gerd Bockmann wrote:How in the heck would this tryout hurt a team's chances of doing well at State?

It wouldn't

ahunt wrote:

Coach K wrote:

ahunt wrote:How long are you all thinking tryouts would take?

Manual is just about 5 minutes away from the Galt House.... I'd have to get approval (which I don't think would be a problem), but we could host tryouts on the last day of State. I do agree that pretty much everyone who would be interested would be at state. We could also then promote the tryouts to everyone earlier in the weekend.

Thoughts?

Having it after state creates an issue where teams aren't willing to stay so that one player can try out. Those that are willing to stay will have additional players who are bored/restless and that creates all sorts of problems for their coaches.

That's fine... it was just a thought.... I never said it was a good thought... :)

I don't know, maybe we should ask anyone interested and see if their team is willing to wait for them. And some people can get rides from other teams

Why would we need permission from the Galt House or KAAC to have a few "scrimmage" matches in our own rooms that we are paying for? And why would it matter if some coaches wouldn't want their players participating? I hate to sound like some sort of elitist, but those who would do well on this would likely show up with or without the support of their coach. It would also keep some who would not do well from showing up and essentially taking up room others could fill. The weekend of state is the best possible time to do this. We may not be able to fit everybody in the same room like we would like, but over the course of a few rounds, it should become apparent who is best. No matter when we do it, not everybody will be able to come, so at least do it when most would be able. Those that don't make it can get together and submit their own bid if they wish.

Beastman wrote:Why would we need permission from the Galt House or KAAC to have a few "scrimmage" matches in our own rooms that we are paying for? And why would it matter if some coaches wouldn't want their players participating? I hate to sound like some sort of elitist, but those who would do well on this would likely show up with or without the support of their coach. It would also keep some who would not do well from showing up and essentially taking up room others could fill. The weekend of state is the best possible time to do this. We may not be able to fit everybody in the same room like we would like, but over the course of a few rounds, it should become apparent who is best. No matter when we do it, not everybody will be able to come, so at least do it when most would be able. Those that don't make it can get together and submit their own bid if they wish.

We wouldn't need their permission to use our own rooms, but quite honestly that would make things very cramped even in their biggest rooms.

It matters that coaches don't want their players participating because that list of players includes some of the players we would want on this type of team. Furthermore, while you may not have to worry about making coaches of other teams angry, I (and anyone else involved with the selection of the team) do have to take that under consideration.

I can't speak for other schools (though I suspect it is the same), but for us attendance at any tournament is treated the same as a school field trip, so the students are subject to all school rules and have to follow the instructions of whoever the chaperones are. I'm not interested in creating a situation where students have to defy their coach (or other chaperone) just to try out for an All-Star team. It's a terrible situation to put those students in and it's a position that I can't put myself in.

Coach K wrote:It's a terrible situation to put those students in and it's a position that I can't put myself in.

It's terrible that there are coaches who are selfish enough to deny their players the right to tryout for an all-star team. It's even worse when those same selfish coaches choose to make the tryout process even more inconvenient for players who want to play real quizbowl. In any case, it looks like the proponents of fake quizbowl have once again succeeded in pushing out real quizbowl opportunities.

Declaring defeat seems premature.

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Declaring defeat seems premature.

Well, I didn't mean defeat. What I meant was that any other date we picked would be inferior to 3/13.

The only time that all of the best players in Kentucky will be in one place all year is the weekend of the State tournament. Even if there is a tryout at Danville on another weekend, it's likely that a lot of students (including some from teams whose coaches objected) will not be able to make it because of other conflicts or because they aren't able to make an additional trip (which is quite long for some areas of the state) on another weekend on top of one they just made to the State tournament.

And a few coaches are standing in the way of their own students chances at making an all-star team. Their excuse is that they don't want to hurt their chances in the State tournament. That excuse is completely bogus (in a lot of ways) and I'd love to hear the reasoning (if there is any) behind those coaches saying that.

How realistic is it that teams are going to be practicing the entire Saturday of state?
I don't see how playing quizbowl is less productive than eating on Fourth Street (not to say you can't do both.)

I really don't think anybody should worry about making the coaches angry. This isn't a team try-out or event, this is individual. If a coach isn't wanting to allow a player to attend, have the player bring his/her parents. Or somebody should explain to them that trying out for this using good quizbowl questions can only help their chances of doing well the next day, especially considering that KAAC is somewhat more pyramidal now than it used to be.

I'd like to add that if players on a team are more concerned with quick recall than quality Quizbowl, then they aren't the players we would need on the team anyways. Also, there won't be a date where everyone can attend, but the day before state starts up is the day MOST can attend. If the others don't want to come, that sucks. They can submit their own bid. This is fair, and this is how it should work. And I think 90% of the people here would agree.

This sounds like a pretty cool idea.

When are we going to have the tournamnet?

Also, if anyone wants to scrimmage at state, let me know.

So...
Are we not going to enter a team in this?

I find it sad that we let a couple of coaches stop a lot of people from getting to do this...
Hopefully next year this won't happen.

Next year, it should be handled better for sure. I feel like a lot of good senior players got screwed. Congrats to the coaches that once again prevented good quizbowl from being widely recognized in Kentucky.

We could have still had a team. All that would have had to happen was a group of players send a bid to HSAPQ. They didn't even have to be the best team, just be the best group to submit a bid.

Obviously though, Kentucky wants to field our best team. So next year when there is a tryout, the quizbowl community in Kentucky needs to be much more organized. If one or two teams don't get on board...it's their loss. State is obviously the best time to do it, and anyone who thinks a tryout would hurt their team's chances of success is just completely and totally wrong.

If we have to do it sometime else, Centre (or Danville I guess) is fairly central and that would be a good place to do it. If they aren't willing then maybe WKU or UofL can do it so that a tryout will take place next year.

The problem with suggesting kids send in a bid is that sending a team requires a decent amount of money, which a group of kids would probably not be able/willing to provide.

New York Undercover wrote:The problem with suggesting kids send in a bid is that sending a team requires a decent amount of money, which a group of kids would probably not be able/willing to provide.

That is true. If there were 4 starters and 2 alternates, then between the $500 entry fee, hotel rooms for one night, and food for two days they would probably end up paying like $150-$200 a piece.

And I sure would hate to pay $150-200 to be an "alternate"

Super awesome car trip+camping experience could cut down on costs.

But yeah, alternates are typically bad because they always get shafted in some rounds while the starters think they get shafted if they get subbed out. Especially in the context of an all-star team.

Hilltopper22 wrote:We could have still had a team. All that would have had to happen was a group of players send a bid to HSAPQ. They didn't even have to be the best team, just be the best group to submit a bid.

Obviously though, Kentucky wants to field our best team. So next year when there is a tryout, the quizbowl community in Kentucky needs to be much more organized. If one or two teams don't get on board...it's their loss. State is obviously the best time to do it, and anyone who thinks a tryout would hurt their team's chances of success is just completely and totally wrong.

If we have to do it sometime else, Centre (or Danville I guess) is fairly central and that would be a good place to do it. If they aren't willing then maybe WKU or UofL can do it so that a tryout will take place next year.

There were two main issues that prevented it from happening this year: timing and leadership.

As convenient as state is for having everyone in the same place, it's a huge pain to organize everything then. With everything else going on that weekend, I think it's hard to squeeze in one more thing. I think another weekend would have worked better, but state comes at a time right before a lot of spring breaks and other commitments.

The bigger issue was a lack of leadership. The two people who used to organize things like this in the state (Chuck Dean and Matt Knupp) are either retired or banned. Joe tried to start things, but then got overwhelmed at school and wasn't even able to make it to state. Susan was willing to help in an advisory capacity, but couldn't commit to running the show. I was also willing to help, but had way too much going on to organize everything myself. Even if we had tried to organize something at state, there's no way it would have come together this year.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was more of a perfect storm of things going wrong than a "couple of coaches preventing good quizbowl from happening".

I just wanted to post here that I did receive an official bid from Kentucky for an NASAT team and approved it so that the ball can get rolling on other things. This team is not set in stone until the official registration form comes in, if one from Kentucky comes in.

cvdwightw wrote:I just wanted to post here that I did receive an official bid from Kentucky for an NASAT team and approved it so that the ball can get rolling on other things. This team is not set in stone until the official registration form comes in, if one from Kentucky comes in.

Well it's probably the best team (or close to it) that Kentucky could have fielded anyway, so I'm fine with it.

Coach K wrote: As convenient as state is for having everyone in the same place, it's a huge pain to organize everything then. With everything else going on that weekend, I think it's hard to squeeze in one more thing. I think another weekend would have worked better, but state comes at a time right before a lot of spring breaks and other commitments.

What weekends were even left after State?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was more of a perfect storm of things going wrong than a "couple of coaches preventing good quizbowl from happening".

Disagree. There's one team/school that should carry most of the blame: Johnson Central High School. Please stop suggesting to other coaches that an all-star tryout involving real Quizbowl will actually hurt your chances at winning a state tournament that currently isn't even worth winning in the first place.

Just out of curiosity, does the state championship have some sort of prize or prize money? Or is winning more of a bragging rights thing?

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:Just out of curiosity, does the state championship have some sort of prize or prize money? Or is winning more of a bragging rights thing?

No prize money. Nothing really to "brag" about.

Huang wrote:

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:Just out of curiosity, does the state championship have some sort of prize or prize money? Or is winning more of a bragging rights thing?

No prize money. Nothing really to "brag" about.

So people make it a big deal... just 'cause?