ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:30 am

I will volunteer to moderate if you wish.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by BroNi » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:44 am

Do you want us to bring laptops to moderate with?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:16 am

BroNi wrote:Do you want us to bring laptops to moderate with?
If that's sufficiently convenient for you, sure; we'll have a few print copies of the set prepared (unless everything goes terribly) for that purpose.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by SHP Pirate » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:41 am

Andy,

We will bring all for buzzers and I will be happy to moderate if needed.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by chaossolver » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:51 pm

Andy,
I know this is early to ask, but could you guys also post the specific room and building that registration will be held in?

Thanks,

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:19 am

chaossolver wrote:Andy,
I know this is early to ask, but could you guys also post the specific room and building that registration will be held in?

Thanks,

-Bing Xu
Boylston Hall - Fong Auditorium. Coach Pirrie should have received an email at 5:16am this morning detailing that and a lot of other stuff.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by The Infanta » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:43 pm

If I haven't already mentioned, I'm happy to help moderating if you need me.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:53 pm

The Infanta wrote:If I haven't already mentioned, I'm happy to help moderating if you need me.
You haven't! I will definitely take advantage of that; thank you.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by BroNi » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:35 pm

Does anyone going to the Harvard tourney have an idea where one can park a Minibus, without having to pay tolls every hour? I tried to get in touch with their office in charge of parking, but after repeated calls and emails, not a peep.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:26 am

Round one started about ten minutes ago, depending on what room you are/were in. Several rooms have scorekeepers, particularly the bracket where the rooms disappear at 11:30 and don't come back for an hour--our fastest moderators are there in an effort to get done by 11:30am.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:00 pm

Preliminary stats. Apologies for the delays; a couple scoresheet inaccuracies resulted in a few teams having extra wins/losses due to those accursed homonyms "B" and "D" (and the mysterious fact that LASA has a D team that could plausibly be anyone else's B team, if not A team).
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:09 pm

Seventeen out of thirty-six teams have less than 10ppb?

I thought this was supposed to be easier than last year's?

EDIT: i can count.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:44 pm

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Seventeen out of thirty-six teams have less than 10ppb?

I thought this was supposed to be easier than last year's?

EDIT: i can count.
At least half of our field is playing their first pyramidal tournament, according to the coaches. That's not to totally discount that bonus distribution, but I'm pretty happy about the number of teams that are above 15 ppb. And each bracket winner's managing 24 or 25; that's a lot better than past HFTs.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:46 pm

Oh, that's actually really cool then, i'm glad you guys are getting new teams up there.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:49 pm

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Oh, that's actually really cool then, i'm glad you guys are getting new teams up there.
Yeah, it's one of the major challenges of HFT: its field has both the most and least experienced teams in the country. A hard line to tread.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by rchschem » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:50 pm

The packets reflect this. Nearly all the tossups are gettable, but most are really tough up front.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Unicolored Jay » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:02 pm

"JT?" Really?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by wexs883198215 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:30 pm

Judy Sucks a Lemon for Breakfast wrote:"JT?" Really?
I would imagine that's intentional :wink:
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:01 pm

EDIT: for actual information. Going into the finals, LASA had secured an advantage over State College. They then won the final 445-130.

Playoff stats will be up once entered. The brackets became somewhat unsynchronized and so I had to stop entering stats midway through round seven so that I could start reading the finals, and then teams trickled in wanting me to help find their buzzers, which I did to varying degrees of rapidity. So I'll enter those scoresheets shortly. Note: Bromfields A and B left without telling me right after lunch, and I think the wrong pair of teams played one match, so some matches couldn't be played (those against Bromfield and those that would be repeats from the earlier game, and some arcane repercussions of it that I don't entirely myself understand).
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Important Bird Area » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:12 pm

You couldn't find space in the bracket names for pandas of the National Zoo?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:26 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:You couldn't find space in the bracket names for pandas of the National Zoo?
Ding ding ding.

I was rather elitist, I guess, picking only State College A pseudonym themes.

EDIT: Also, I should mention that after entering a tournament that seemed at times to mostly consist of teams with six or more actual players operating under a dozen one-off pseudonyms, I am now against both high schoolers playing quizbowl under pseudonyms and high schoolers playing quizbowl at all. Granted, I did very much enjoy the inexplicable scrawls that some of the more unusual pseudonyms resulted in on the scoresheet, leading me to reinterpret them until the game of handwriting telephone could end (usually by consulting a subsequent score sheet).
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:31 pm

Also--the questions are not clear for discussion until Rockford Auburn runs their tournament. There may well be a discussion forum set up.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:10 pm

Note: if you're missing an orange binder that you may have left in Harvard 105, I have it.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by etchdulac » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:02 pm

When should we expect to see playoff stats?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by wexs883198215 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:47 am

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Also--the questions are not clear for discussion until Rockford Auburn runs their tournament. There may well be a discussion forum set up.
When is this this mirror?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by jonah » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:37 am

wexs883198215 wrote:
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Also--the questions are not clear for discussion until Rockford Auburn runs their tournament. There may well be a discussion forum set up.
When is this this mirror?
December 11.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:12 pm

Playoff stats are done for 80% of the top three brackets (for which I have inputted all but round 6, which I assumed I'd already inputted but I had to start a new file) and for on average 3/5 of the bottom three brackets (which are a little messed up because brackets four and six only had four games (because Bromfield left) and bracket five had some confusion wherein the wrong Kellenberg played a team and then the correct game couldn't be played because one team had already heard a packet, or something.

All remaining scoresheets of rounds > 5 will be input later today (once I get home, which is where they are) and then I will be able to update everyone on what is still missing. (There are also some scoresheets that I need more data to figure out, such as one that don't specify East/West for a Smithtown team and another that lacks team names entirely.)
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:14 pm

Thank you for the update and good luck working out your remaining statistical problems. And, of course, thank you and the entire quizbowl community that was helping you on Saturday to run another successful tournament. My kids had a wonderful time and look forward to returning next year as well.

And congratulations to LASA and State College for their outstanding performances on Saturday. My team did not get to play State College, but they did have the pleasure of playing LASA in the preliminaries and they were very impressed indeed. Good luck to both teams throughout the year, and of course, to all the other teams that made Saturday so enjoyable and so wonderfully competitive.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:30 pm

Everyone should join the HFT 2010 usergroup (click on "User Control Panel" and select the "Usergroups" tab) to discuss the set.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:54 pm

Any news on the playoff stats? I ask not to be a pest but out of curiosity---having read all day at HFT, I have no concept of what happened in the tournament as a whole except that LASA won. A brief narrative might help while we await accurate stats.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

EDITED: For concision.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:04 am

I don't have a viable narrative yet because I haven't entered all the rounds of any individual bracket--I'm very sorry for the delay, which owes to a fellowship application and a problem set being due in nine hours and sixteen, respectively. This won't happen again, I promise--alas, it all would have been averted if I didn't have to read the final while the rest of the tournament was still ongoing.

I appreciate everyone's patience.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Kyle » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:04 am

Brian Young is proving his value twice over at the moment. You should have appreciated him more.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:25 am

Kyle wrote:Brian Young is proving his value twice over at the moment. You should have appreciated him more.
As the forums' chief exponent of Brian's statkeeping ability, I resent that remark!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by etchdulac » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:31 pm

Any hope of seeing those playoff stats today?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:13 pm

So, I spent the better part of the weekend trying to untangle playoff stats. After sifting through some scoresheets that had teams entirely unlabeled, teams with the wrong letter, etc., I entered every scoresheet we have. That, unfortunately, hasn't resolved all the problems: unless I'm blind, for example, there's no reason I should be seeing a game between Dunbar B and St. Joe's B, because they were in different playoff brackets. And neither team had in its playoff bracket a different team with a similar name (where there were, I've already made those corrections). So I have about half a dozen games that should never have happened, and as many games that should have happened.

If I can't figure out what's happened by tonight, I'll give everyone a preview by deleting the impossible games, adding the unknown games as ties for now, and keeping at it myself.

The top bracket is pristine, and the second bracket only has one anomaly to it, so those results are at least okay. I think some of the lower brackets got confused because a team dropped from the fourth and sixth bracket, and the bracket with Kellenbergs B and C featured one game wherein the wrong Kellenberg played a match, and that screwed up a few games subsequent to that. That may have had a ripple effect on subsequent rounds, but I'll have a clearer picture of all that later.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by etchdulac » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:45 pm

Thanks for your work. That's got to be frustrating.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:08 pm

Andy,

Maybe there is no need to figure it all out by yourself---why not ask for help right here from teams in the brackets that are of concern to you---many coaches and/or players keep records of their matches; perhaps if you identify the bracket, coaches or players could report the results they have, identifying themselves, opponents, scores and even rounds, if possible. Even a little help might provide the rosetta stone you need to make everything fall into place, because I assume you at least have score-sheets with scores even if the names of the teams on the sheets are either inaccurate or indecipherable---help from those who were there might enable you to unriddle the riddles you currently face. It might be worth a try at least. So, why not let people know what playoff brackets are of concern and see what information is sent back? It certainly cannot hurt.

Good luck.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by TheKingInYellow » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:15 am

It seems to me that if the stats were Up, people would probably tell you what was missing or incorrect
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:54 pm

Graham's idea is superior to mine, for it promises greater efficiency---if you post what you have, you are being proactive rather than passively awaiting help. Once you do post ,anyone who notices a statistical error can then be proactive in return and identify the error in a way that you can probably corroborate. So, why not give Graham's idea a shot?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:31 pm

Seeing as I have to go to board a plane in about negative five minutes, I'll just give you guys this, which is correct (save, for example, the fact that I don't actually have "scores" for some games--pish tosh) for the top three brackets.

This way, you get to see mysterious artifacts like Smithtown West B going 2-6 over the course of five games. (It didn't help that SQBS somehow cloned that team three times, and they also used pseudonyms for one game in the middle of the tournament but not otherwise, and so they got double-entered at one point. That stuff has been resolved, but this mystery remains.)
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:06 pm

Andy,

I trust your flight was uneventful & safe. And thanks for posting what playoff stats you did have. It seems however that you have at least one key error in the 2nd flight---your Pierce Brosnan Bracket ---which as a consequence incorrectly identifies who won the bracket and, thus, who might get Platinum Status for PACE if PACE deems HFT a Platinum Tournament, so here is where we think the error lies:

You have SJHS losing to LASA B, 295-90, with SJHS getting 6 TU's and, in 6 bonus tries, 30 points. But we won that match 250-225 and we kept scoresheets for it and all other matches in the playoffs, and your final posted scores for all of our other matches are almost identical except for the LASA B match (two of the other playoff matches are off by 5 points, but these do not effect the outcome of either match nor the standings within the Pierce Brosnan Bracket as the LASA B error does. Nevertheless, for the sake of helping you discover what is in fact accurate, possibly with the help of the other teams involved, I will identfy the 5 point discrepencies which our records show below).

Back to the LASA B match. Our records for the match with LASA B show a stat-line for SJHS of 10 TU's, 2 Negs and 160 Bonus points in 10 bonus tries, for the final total of 250 points that I mentioned above, while LASA B had a line of 8 TU's, 3 negs and 160 Bonus points in 8 bonus opportunities for their total of 225.

I believe LASA can probably confirm, minimally, that SJHS won the match, and, perhaps also confirm that our stats, if not perfect, are close to being so .

In the other 4 matches you have for us, we exactly agree with the final posted SJHS winning scores and stat-lines against TJ B (250-210) and Hunter B (380-135), but we have 5 point discrepancies against Seton Hall Prep--we have a 320-195 SJHS win, while you have SHP with 190, and in our loss to Kellenberg, we have them winning 315-235, while you have Kellenberg at 5 points less, at 310. In each discrepancy, the only difference in each stat-line is that you have given each opponent one more neg than our scoresheets reveal, otherwise the rest of the stats for both SJHS and each opponent are identical.

Given the near complete agreement of the other 4 scores, we are pretty sure our score with LASA B is also essentially accurate and we also believe LASA B will confirm this. And, of course, we trust that once this is confirmed to your satisfaction, and once you've had a great break for Thanksgiving, you will make the appropriate changes in each team's record and overall stat-line.

In the meantime, have a great Thanksgiving, and thanks again for posting the playoff stats that you did have.

EDIT # 1: For spelling.

EDIT #2: In case you need it, the individual stat line for SJHS in the LASA B match was: Jason 7 Tu's, 1 neg; Alex, 3 Tu's, 1 Neg. And that's it.
Last edited by Edward Powers on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:42 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Knot Gneiss » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:36 pm

I can confirm that St. Joseph's did beat LASA B in the playoffs.

Edit: I can also confirm the score Powers gave.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:29 pm

I can also help with some other matches that have puzzled you. You placed a Dunbar B-St. Joe's B match in the 3rd flight, but you acknowledge SJ B was not in that flight with Dunbar B.

The mystery match was actually Dunbar B 315, State College C 10---I know because I read that match in Room 2 in the Harvard Building---it had the # 1 Team in that 3rd flight playing the # 2 Team in the final Round of the playoffs, Round 10. I remember because we had to wait for Tianen Li, my scorekkeper and co-reader from Harvard, to come back from Tournament Central in your building with round 10 questions---but he could not get paper copies because the LASA A & State College A Match had just started and the doors to the auditorium in your building were locked---so he had to go get his laptop and retrieve the questions that way---which laptop he gave to me to use since he had to go do something briefly. So to help me, the Coach of Dunbar agreed to keep score. Now, I am speculating here, but perhaps because I was reading she accidentally identified State College C as SJHS B on the official scoresheet---I do not know. But I do remember her having problems scoring her own team at first because it was using pseudonyms that were unfamiliar to her, and I do remember the final score of 315-10 and the two teams involved because it was the only time I had read for Dunbar B all day and because SC C had just had a very emotional match the round before against its very own SC B.

I hope that clears up the Dunbar B-SJHS B issue and provides accurate data for SC C as well.

So, the SJ B stats that are posted are accurate for 3 matches---a win agaist against Smithtown West A , 130-115 in Round 6; a win against State College F, 120-90 in Round 7; a FORFEIT win against Bromfield A in Round 8, which you do not have listed; a 180-55 win over HHH West in Round 9, and, finally, a 145-115 win over E.O. Smith A in the final playoff round, Round 10, which you also do not have listed. These are at least the results we have, and these were the 5 other teams in the 4th flight with SJ B.

I hope this helps and I hope others step forward to help as well. Perhaps Dunbar, State College and E.O. Smith can help confirm the stats you do not have that I just mentioned for those teams, and of course you do know that Bromfield forfeited in that flight, so that should be a simple match to upload accurately for all of the teams in that playoff bracket that do not as yet have Forfeit wins against Bromfeld in your current post.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Cassian » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:36 am

As to the LASA B / St. Joe's match in the playoffs, this sounds right to me, but I have no real clue. I fully support Coach Powers's (and Benji's) version of events, and I have no problem with those stats being entered into the official record.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by BroNi » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:16 pm

Concerning Kellenberg A...
1) I agree with Coach Powers about the final score between St. Joe A v. Kellenberg A of 235-315, with Kellenberg winning.
2) In the game of Seton Hall v. Kellenberg A, I have the score as 125 (not 135)-355, Kellenberg winning.
All other games in that tier concerning Kellenberg A are as posted.

Concerning Kellenberg B and C...
1) The score in the Smithtown West B v. Kellenberg B, I have 15-150.
All other games in that tier concerning Kellenberg B and C are as entered.
Bro. Nigel, Coach, Kellenberg Memorial HS, NY

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:57 pm

Thanks for the updates, guys; I haven't had much computer time here at home (Thanksgiving is something of a family holiday, even if we make strenuously sure to avoid all our extended family) but I'll try to get to this stuff before break is over.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:07 pm

Andy, Andy,Andy,

I guess I'm gonna be "that guy". I don't really wanna be, but I will. So, here goes:

Do you need some more help, or, are you ready to post corrected HFT playoff stats any time soon?

There. I've done it. It was not easy. Or pleasant. But someone HAD to do it. And my guess is that you would concur.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:31 pm

Andy, Andy, Andy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's been more than a week since I asked if you needed more help to post accurate final playoff results, and tomorrow will actually be the 4 week anniversary of HFT. Nearly a full month! Can you believe it!!!!!!!!!!

And, given your evident passion for quality quizbowl in general, as your myriad posts on these boards amply suggest, is it too much to ask that you demonstrate a similar passion for your very own HFT by giving it the accurate closure it deserves?

This will be the last time I ask, for I really do not wish to either seem to be or to actually be a pest, and I thank you in advance for understanding this.

And if we do not communicate in the near future, have a great holiday.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:30 pm

I very much understand. I've only had time for brief spurts of quizbowl-related activity, in large part because I just completed (well, fast forwarding four hours... eep) a week where I finished all my grad school apps and turned in three finals. Something of a bad crunch. Once the smoke clears, I'll be able to get to work more seriously. My apologies.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Harvard Fall Tournament V (11/13/10)

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:55 pm

Andy, Andy, Andy!!!

I know I told you I would not bother you about this again, but what the heck: think you might post accurate HFT playoff stats before the year ends? My kids did win in a very gifted bracket and they would like that made official, as would I. Care to help and to correct the errors in your only previous post about the playoffs? You know---before we say good-bye to 2010?
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