ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Charbroil » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:10 pm

If one or more area sectionals is moved to the same date as this tournament, is there any way this tournament might have its date changed?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:26 am

Charbroil wrote:If one or more area sectionals is moved to the same date as this tournament, is there any way this tournament might have its date changed?
Are you suggesting that the midwest cannot dig itself out of the snow by 2 days from now?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Charbroil » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:45 pm

nalin wrote:
Charbroil wrote:If one or more area sectionals is moved to the same date as this tournament, is there any way this tournament might have its date changed?
Are you suggesting that the midwest cannot dig itself out of the snow by 2 days from now?
http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... 13#p208522
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by alexdz » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:29 pm

FYI: It seems, at this point, like holding the region 11 tournament this weekend is still a go for most teams. We may lose a few (in fact, already have) but a majority of teams and staff would prefer this weekend.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by grapesmoker » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:32 am

Charbroil wrote:If one or more area sectionals is moved to the same date as this tournament, is there any way this tournament might have its date changed?
Some of us have already bought plane tickets!
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by alexdz » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:35 am

As far as I know, all SCTs took place today, so it's no longer relevant.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by grapesmoker » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:43 am

alexdz wrote:As far as I know, all SCTs took place today, so it's no longer relevant.
Yeah, I realize that. I was just trying to make the point that, with a tournament that already has a sizable field and for which people are traveling long distances (necessitating airfare purchases), you can't just go, "hey guys can you move this tournament?" It's not so much that I'm worried about this tournament moving as I'm trying to disabuse people of the notion that this is an acceptable line of reasoning.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Charbroil » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:42 pm

grapesmoker wrote:
alexdz wrote:As far as I know, all SCTs took place today, so it's no longer relevant.
Yeah, I realize that. I was just trying to make the point that, with a tournament that already has a sizable field and for which people are traveling long distances (necessitating airfare purchases), you can't just go, "hey guys can you move this tournament?" It's not so much that I'm worried about this tournament moving as I'm trying to disabuse people of the notion that this is an acceptable line of reasoning.
At the time, I was wondering about the possibility of multiple area sectionals being rescheduled to this date, which, as I'm sure you'd agree, would have required discussions along these lines.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:18 am

Charbroil wrote:At the time, I was wondering about the possibility of multiple area sectionals being rescheduled to this date, which, as I'm sure you'd agree, would have required discussions along these lines.
I most certainly do not agree with any such thing!

Look, I understand the need for coordination of tournament dates before the fact, and the possibility of having contingency plans in the case of emergency. However, you cannot just pick up a tournament and move it to the date of another tournament! Not you, not ACF, not NAQT should be allowed to do this kind of thing arbitrarily, and especially not if that other tournament already has a large and committed field of attendees, some of whom (like me) have already purchased airfare, and others who would be SCT attendees if SCT were not on the same weekend. I mean, what are you going to tell those people? Sucks to be you, but you're now out hundreds of dollars through no fault of your own?

If NAQT or anyone else wants to plan contingent dates for a tournament and doesn't want anyone else to have a tournament on that date, well, that's why we need things like calendar coordination. Otherwise, you either move the tournament location or you move to the earliest possible date that you don't think is going to inconvenience people who are looking to go to other tournaments.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:22 am

Furthermore, let me add that upon closer examination, it appears that the only team that would actually have a conflict on this date on account of the midwestern snow is... WUSTL! I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions about the appropriateness of asking for a tournament to be moved when your team is the only one inconvenienced in this way. Maybe, just maybe, it is you who should have to make the difficult choice between attending this and SCT, and not every other team going to this tournament.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Charbroil » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:07 pm

grapesmoker wrote: Look, I understand the need for coordination of tournament dates before the fact, and the possibility of having contingency plans in the case of emergency. However, you cannot just pick up a tournament and move it to the date of another tournament! Not you, not ACF, not NAQT should be allowed to do this kind of thing arbitrarily, and especially not if that other tournament already has a large and committed field of attendees, some of whom (like me) have already purchased airfare, and others who would be SCT attendees if SCT were not on the same weekend. I mean, what are you going to tell those people? Sucks to be you, but you're now out hundreds of dollars through no fault of your own?
http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... up#p208316

Presumably, the 12th or the 19th would have been the preferred makeup dates at other sites as well.
grapesmoker wrote: Furthermore, let me add that upon closer examination, it appears that the only team that would actually have a conflict on this date on account of the midwestern snow is... WUSTL! I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions about the appropriateness of asking for a tournament to be moved when your team is the only one inconvenienced in this way.
If I recall correctly, St. Louis and/or Missouri was not the only location containing teams attending this tournament which was affected by the snowstorm. Furthermore, if you'll recall the original language of my post, it was to ask whether there were contingency plans if "one or more" other sectionals were rescheduled to this date. Obviously it would be absurd to reschedule the event to allow us to attend; however, that was never the intent of my post.

Granted, I suppose I should apologize profusely for not having checked the weather situation at every other sectional in the area before making a casual inquiry about what sorts of contingency plans might exist.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Sam » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:42 am

Here is the field so far. Ohio State is going to the Carnegie Mellon mirror; if you are in a similar position please send an email or post here.

Vinokurov et al. 1 team/0 buzzers/0 staffers
Illinois 1 team/0 buzzers/0 staffers
Winklebutler 1 team/2 buzzers/0 staffers
Michigan 2 teams/3 buzzers/0 staffers
Bowling Green 2 teams/1 buzzer/0 staffers
Notre Dame 1 team/1 buzzer/0 staffers
House 1-2 team/1 buzzer/~9 staffers

Total: 9-10 teams/8 buzzers/~9 staffers
Please correct me if I've left out a buzzer or staffer, and finalize team numbers in the next week or so.
Last edited by Sam on Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:09 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Ringil » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:40 am

We will bring 3 buzzers.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Sun Devil Student » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:49 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:That's right--ASU can run it in March, and whichever date you prefer is fine with us. Please email me so we can discuss the details.
Just letting you know ASU Quizbowl has decided to host MUT instead of Sack of Antwerp due to higher interest and in order to cater to our rivals in Tucson who are newly arrived in our quizbowl world. Sorry we won't have a West Coast mirror this year. Thanks for giving us this as an option anyway.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Papa's in the House » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:56 pm

Members have until Monday to tell me if they're attending. I'll let you know then if we'll have a second team (if I say nothing, we're only bringing one team). We will have 2 buzzers.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by evilmonkey » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:03 pm

Notre Dame is 1 team, 1 buzzer
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Ringil » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:46 pm

Michigan is gonna be 2 teams.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Papa's in the House » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:29 pm

We are bringing one team and at least one buzzer (two if I remember to talk to Ike).
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:41 pm

Hey, so the "Winkler et al." team now consists solely of myself, Nolan Winkler, and Dan Donohue due to cancellations and schedule fuck-ups. So, if there are any free agents or if any teams have extra players that might want to team up, you can e-mail one of us at MoWinkla (at) Gmail (dot) com or DanDonohue91 (at) Gmail (dot) com.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Charbroil » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:59 pm

Unfortunately, we're going to have to drop our teams because everyone turned out to be busy. I know this is somewhat ironic given the above conversations, and thus I would like to reiterate that I never implied that this tournament should be rescheduled on our behalf.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:16 pm

Charbroil wrote:Unfortunately, we're going to have to drop our teams because everyone turned out to be busy. I know this is somewhat ironic given the above conversations, and thus I would like to reiterate that I never implied that this tournament should be rescheduled on our behalf.
NOM NOM NOM THIS IRONING IS DELICIOUS
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:05 pm

Secretary of Bobcats wrote:Hey, so the "Winkler et al." team now consists solely of myself, Nolan Winkler, and Dan Donohue due to cancellations and schedule fuck-ups. So, if there are any free agents or if any teams have extra players that might want to team up, you can e-mail one of us at MoWinkla (at) Gmail (dot) com or DanDonohue91 (at) Gmail (dot) com.
It should be noted that Will Butler has done this and the three of us are still looking for a 4th teammate.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Sam » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:26 pm

Secretary of Bobcats wrote:
Secretary of Bobcats wrote:Hey, so the "Winkler et al." team now consists solely of myself, Nolan Winkler, and Dan Donohue due to cancellations and schedule fuck-ups. So, if there are any free agents or if any teams have extra players that might want to team up, you can e-mail one of us at MoWinkla (at) Gmail (dot) com or DanDonohue91 (at) Gmail (dot) com.
It should be noted that Will Butler has done this and the three of us are still looking for a 4th teammate.
I have taken the liberty of combining your names into the most euphonious permutation possible.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:22 am

We're not going to be able to come, sorry if that causes any problems.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Papa's in the House » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:22 am

EDIT: Answered my own question.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Unicolored Jay » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:10 am

As noted in the newest edition of the field list, we're not going. Sorry guys.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Sam » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:58 am

The tournament will be held in Harper Memorial Library, which you can see if you click "The Main Quadrangles" in this map of the campus. Registration will begin in Room 130 at 8:30 and rounds will start at 9:00. Please do not be late.
There will be two house teams to make a total of ten teams and nine games in the preliminary rounds. After that, the house teams will be dropped and the remaining eight will be split into two brackets to play at least three more games, with finals if necessary.
The easiest way to get food for lunch is probably to go to Hutchinson Common's in the Reynold's Club, which is in the northeast corner of the main quad. There are also coffee shops scattered across the quad that have sandwiches and the like; most accept credit/debit cards but you should probably bring $5-$10 in cash to be safe.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:58 am

Live-ish stats will be here.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:44 pm

The prelims are complete; stats are posted here. We are now disbanding the house teams and breaking into two brackets of 4. The top four are Jerry/Seth/Laferbrook, Michigan A, Winklebut, and Michigan B. The lower four are Illinois, Notre Dame, Bowling Green A, and Bowling Green B.

Due to one moderator reading the wrong packet, Michigan A, Michigan B, Winklebut, and Notre Dame each played one fewer game than they should have.

Playoff stats will be here.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:42 pm

Michigan A beat Seth/Jerry/Laferbrook the second time around, so a final is beginning just now.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:44 pm

Can I please ask that since there may be future mirrors of this tournament, please do not discuss the content of the tournament on the forums.

Thanks very much--I hope everyone enjoyed it.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Sam » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:16 pm

jonah wrote:Michigan A beat Seth/Jerry/Laferbrook the second time around, so a final is beginning just now.
Seth/Jerry/Laferbrook won the finals to win the tournament.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by jonah » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:34 am

We now have complete stats.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:34 pm

This was really "regular difficulty" even though just one team broke 17ppb?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by marnold » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:53 pm

CHRZ, your argument would be stronger if (1) there weren't two teams within .05 of 17 pbb and (2) it wasn't totally obvious from the first two pages of this thread that the tournament's definition of difficulty would be at its easiest Regionals level.

On a related note, I'm not sure what long-forgotten meme necessitated the capybara emoticon in the first place, but maybe that should become the new forum shorthand for "TOO HARD!" Like, "the capybara demands higher bonus conversion."
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Cheynem » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:10 pm

Not having seen the set, I can't comment on it, and I can do the usual pearl-clutching at the appallingly poor bonus numbers, but one of the biggest quibbles I have is that these tournaments inevitably end up trapping apparently confused, relatively new to the circuit type teams for some oddball reason. While Marshall was saying that this would be a regular difficulty tournament and the rest of the circuit was preparing itself for off the rails action, for some reason, Bowling Green got a bee in its bonnet about attending, and ended up getting sucker punched. I hope they knew what they were getting into, but I somewhat doubt it.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by grapesmoker » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:51 pm

marnold wrote:CHRZ, your argument would be stronger if (1) there weren't two teams within .05 of 17 pbb and (2) it wasn't totally obvious from the first two pages of this thread that the tournament's definition of difficulty would be at its easiest Regionals level.

On a related note, I'm not sure what long-forgotten meme necessitated the capybara emoticon in the first place, but maybe that should become the new forum shorthand for "TOO HARD!" Like, "the capybara demands higher bonus conversion."
Dude, I was there. This tournament was fucking hard, way beyond anything like "regular difficulty." I'm not a fan of any kind of pearl clutching and enjoy wacky hard tournaments, and I'm telling you that I know there were bonuses we were getting 10 or 20 on and I was sure that almost every other team was getting 0. In this particular case, Chrz is absolutely correct that this tournament was not within the advertised difficulty. That's something I suspected going in, but it's not something Bowling Green could have suspected going in.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by marnold » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:05 pm

Oh, yeah, I'm not claiming it wasn't hard: obviously I have no idea one way or the other, and I would have even been floored if it hadn't been hard. I was just trying to (light-heartedly) point out the humor of proving its impossibility with "only one team over 17pbb!" when there are teams with 16.96 and 16.99. Anyway, Jerry and Mike are right that non-circuit regular teams should be properly warned before these sorts of caveat emptor tournaments.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Sam » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:12 am

The tournament was much harder than advertised. It seems a lot of teams intuited this would be the case, but we should have said so explicitly, especially when there was a school new to the circuit.

I'm curious to hear what people thought about the English-language literature, of which I wrote about half. In the not-too-distant future there should be a discussion thread, either closed or public depending on the fate of East Coast mirrors, but before then it would be helpful, if you have any comments or complaints, to email me at smbailey1 curly-A uchicago period edu.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:18 pm

Perhaps a private forum for people who played at UChicago (and thus wouldn't play at any mirrors) could be set up?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by jmayer » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:14 pm

To be honest, I did know what we were getting into. I am the only remnant from the Bowling Green teams that used to actually attend tournaments (as rare as that was), so I have been to Chicago tournaments before. The reason I wanted to attend was because of the lack of scheduling conflicts on that day and the bizarre insistence of my team that simply going to practices (if even that much) is enough to produce a competitive team. I figured it'd be the quiz bowl equivalent of a scared straight program that will cause the team to either get it together for next year or simply disband after my graduation. Either way is for the best in my book.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:35 pm

Just to follow up on Bruce's and other posts, I've put in requests to the administrators to set up a private forum to discuss this tournament. Hopefully that will be in existence soon.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:42 pm

I figured it'd be the quiz bowl equivalent of a scared straight program that will cause the team to either get it together for next year or simply disband after my graduation. Either way is for the best in my book.
Couldn't you have taken your teammates to tournaments like Early Autumn Collegiate Novice, ACF Fall, maybe something like the Terrapin mirror at Michigan, or anything to actually give them a good idea of what the circuit is like, rather than trying to scare them straight? If you have people who do practice consistently and who want to be competitive, actually encouraging them to go out to all that the circuit has to offer, especially the easier tournaments, is an immensely better strategy to foster growth than cherrypicking a crazy open tournament to scare them off with some hopes that it makes your team disband next year. I think that's a horrible way to lead your team.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:15 pm

A "Sack of Antwerp discussion" forum now exists--I hope you'll join to make comments on the tournament's content.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Sack of Antwerp (Chicago 2/19/2011)

Post by jmayer » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:43 am

Couldn't you have taken your teammates to tournaments like Early Autumn Collegiate Novice, ACF Fall, maybe something like the Terrapin mirror at Michigan, or anything to actually give them a good idea of what the circuit is like, rather than trying to scare them straight?
The reason I wanted to attend was because of the lack of scheduling conflicts on that day
So, in short, no.
If you have people who do practice consistently and who want to be competitive
We do not. This was not our first tournament of the year (again, it was a rare one without conflicts), and when I presented them the opportunity to learn important subject matter for tournaments, I was told simply "no" by the team.

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