British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

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British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:25 pm

As long as people are announcing ACF Fall mirrors, I wanted to announce this one. I don't particularly expect anybody reading this site to see this announcement and decide to come, so please consider this less an announcement of a tournament than an announcement of the existence of a regular-season quizbowl circuit in a third English-speaking country. This should be a great year. As far as the obligatory tournament information goes, it will take place at St. John's College and cost a flat rate of £25 per team with a £5 buzzer discount. More information can be found at the formal announcement on our website. Email thomas.speller [at] jesus [dot] ox.ac.uk to register.

Final field:

Cambridge (1 team, 1 buzzer)
Manchester (1 team, 1 buzzer)
Oxford (7 teams, 4 buzzers)
Oxford Brookes (1 team)
Sheffield (1 team)

TOTAL: 11 teams, 6 buzzers

I also challenge Cambridge student Yi Sun to come to this tournament.
EDIT: challenge not accepted in favor of a vacation in Norway.
Last edited by Kyle on Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:34 pm

How's this looking?

Also, if you're playing in this tournament, do not read the discussion of the tournament until after the tournament.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:38 pm

It's still happening. The field above is correct. Hopefully Imperial, Durham, and York will confirm that they're coming soon. Still no indication from Cambridge. But we could probably field five house teams if necessary, so it will be a fine tournament.

Edit: York isn't coming.
Last edited by Kyle on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:40 pm

Awesome. This is pretty exciting!
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:30 pm

I'm bumping this thread, inviting you to look at the field update, reminding you that Oxford is staffing this tournament as well as playing it, referring you to this thread, and informing Kenneth from ASU that he's got nothing.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sun Devil Student » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:59 am

You're lucky I ever even looked at this thread at all, but since I'm here...

Nice.

Are those really 7 full teams of 4 each and (presumably) 6-10 staffers?

So how did the Oxford organization get so big? Chicago claims to have had 6 teams before, but it seems like you might be setting the world record here.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:08 am

Chicago "claims" to have had 6 teams before?
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by jonah » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:09 am

Sun Devil Student wrote:Chicago claims to have had 6 teams before, but it seems like you might be setting the world record here.
As recently as a month and a half ago, we had eight teams at ACF Novice, and remember that a significant portion of our club wasn't even eligible for that tournament.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:14 am

Hell, I'm excited when 8 people show up to practice. I couldn't imagine having 29 people go to a tournament.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:33 am

Hilltopper22 wrote:Hell, I'm excited when 8 people show up to practice. I couldn't imagine having 29 people go to a tournament.
Bill Tressler should hire himself out with the promise of having nine teams within two years.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:16 am

Sun Devil Student wrote:Are those really 7 full teams of 4 each and (presumably) 6-10 staffers?

So how did the Oxford organization get so big?
It's 34 people. Four of them aren't actually part of our team, but instead constitute Exeter College's upcoming University Challenge team. Nevertheless, they are eligible Oxford students playing together.

As for how our team got so big, see, when you have practice every week but never go to a tournament, people don't get the opportunity to decide that they don't want to keep doing this, so they have to keep coming back each week. This is a trick you should learn in the US: if you don't go to tournaments, your team will get bigger. What exactly people are "practicing" for each Monday night I have never totally understood. But it's not like our team suddenly ballooned in size -- it was huge long before I got here.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:28 am

Kyle wrote:What exactly people are "practicing" for each Monday night I have never totally understood. But it's not like our team suddenly ballooned in size -- it was huge long before I got here.
What we were practising for was twenty minutes of competition every year vs. Cambridge, an engagement which the record will show we never lost. Probably about ten years ago one might argue we were practising for the British Student Quiz Championships or the ICT. Many people who turned up were in fact tacitly practising for the Oxford Inter-Collegiate Quiz in which they would play against their Oxford teammates.

In any case it is a good thing to be able to field a large number of (competent!) teams. Hopefully Cambridge and Imperial will show to reduce the Oxford-heavy nature and give us an opportunity at a Varsity rematch.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:07 am

(It should be noted how seriously people take competitions against Cambridge. You can compete against them in pretty much any activity in which you can keep time or keep score. I just read a newspaper article about the Oxford vs. Cambridge swim-across-the-English-Channel (we lost). The Oxford and Cambridge orienteering clubs are planning their varsity match. Naturally, it is going to be held in the forests of the rural Czech Republic. They have to start planning it very far in advance because the necessary vaccines for tick-borne encephalitis have to be given in three doses over the course of six months.)
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sun Devil Student » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:41 am

jonah wrote:As recently as a month and a half ago, we had eight teams at ACF Novice, and remember that a significant portion of our club wasn't even eligible for that tournament.
I'll make a minor quibble that two of those teams were shorthanded, but that's very impressive. Maybe you guys can have a 7-on-7 Chicago vs. Oxford tournament sometime.

Has either team considered applying to the Guinness Book of World Records?
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:47 am

I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:26 pm

Kyle wrote:I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
Countdown until Dwight devises a 28-player format wherein you sometimes play as quads, sometimes singles, sometimes doubles, and sometimes play seven-a-side soccer.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:11 pm

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:
Kyle wrote:I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
Countdown until Dwight devises a 28-player format wherein you sometimes play as quads, sometimes singles, sometimes doubles, and sometimes play seven-a-side soccer.
As long as we don't have to play Quidditch.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Sun Devil Student » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:09 pm

Kyle wrote:I believe that format is called "really deep bench."
Well, what I was thinking of was more along the lines of "each team plays all 7 of the teams from the opposing school once" or maybe twice, and then maybe followed by each 7-team delegation ranked by record and playing a playoff game against its opposite number, but after looking up what you guys meant by "deep bench" I suppose you could try to do that too.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:37 pm

Preliminary results:

Oxford Pennyfeather (Peter Berry, Kyle Haddad-Fonda, Tim Hele, George Woudhuysen) win with 10-0.

Cambridge (captain Alex Guttenplan) and Oxford Belacqua (captain Simon Spiro) tie on 8-2, Oxford B beat Cambridge in second place play-off.

Full stats will follow in due course.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:38 pm

Full stats can be found at this link.

Thanks very much to Evan for letting us use the set and especially to Dakkas for helping Edmund et al with the Briticization -- er, Briticisation -- of the set. People seemed to have a great time.

Also, stats from the second-place game between Cambridge and Oxford Belacqua:

Oxford Belacqua 310, Cambridge 265

Oxford Belacqua

Cameron 4 0 40
Maris 2 0 20
Simon 2 2 10
Zachary 3 0 30

Cambridge

Frances 2 0 20
Martin 1 1 5
Alex 3 0 30
Tom 2 0 20
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:34 am

Kyle wrote:Thanks very much to Evan for letting us use the set and especially to Dakkas for helping Edmund et al with the Briticization -- er, Briticisation -- of the set.
How did this work? Was this a matter of changing "color charge" to "colour charge" and the like, or did the clues/questions change?
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by pray for elves » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:18 am

RyuAqua wrote:
Kyle wrote:Thanks very much to Evan for letting us use the set and especially to Dakkas for helping Edmund et al with the Briticization -- er, Briticisation -- of the set.
How did this work? Was this a matter of changing "color charge" to "colour charge" and the like, or did the clues/questions change?
Some American content was converted to British content (e.g., the addition of extra British history replacing some US history). Basically, a small number of the questions changed.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:35 am

RyuAqua wrote:How did this work? Was this a matter of changing "color charge" to "colour charge" and the like, or did the clues/questions change?
We replaced 16/16 over the course of the set with house-written questions on British history and trash, with the intention of making the set more enjoyable for the British audience by eliminating first-line buzzer races, guaranteed 30 point bonus sets and guaranteed 0 point bonus sets arising from cultural differences in what average university students know on the two sides of the Atlantic.

Specifically we swapped out questions which were ludicrously easy for a British audience (some of the British history, giveaway cricket clues in first line, etc) and those which were too deeply American to be of interest (e.g. very detailed US political history). The lit and the geography weren't touched although this might be something to consider if we try the exercise again.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:54 am

The geography should have been changed. It's partly my fault because I should have thought to have you ask Evan and Dallas how much of it would be American geography. The reasons I didn't think of it were that (1) the last regular-season ACF tournament I attended was when we hosted regionals in 2008, where something like 11 of the 15 geography tossups were about Africa, and (2) I never write more than 2/2 American geography for a 16-round set, a habit that others do not share.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Martin » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:38 am

Just popping in to say hello from Cambridge, and to thank the Oxford guys again for an excellently-run tournament. Hopefully the Varsity match will give us a chance to reciprocate.

With regard to the Briticisation of the questions - I thought it was overall very well done, to the extent that I'm not entirely sure in retrospect which questions had been swapped, although I assume Llewelyn the Great isn't a typical fixture in US competitive quizzing. I didn't think the geography was problematic at all; I didn't notice any US bias in those questions. The literature could certainly have done with a little tweaking though. Even Thornton Wilder's better known works are pretty obscure over here, and teams with an American member did seem to do quite well in these.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:47 am

The spread of ACF to Canada and the UK over the past few years is pretty exciting. I look forward to a future in which Chicago Open style tournaments are run in Toronto and Oxford and give expanded opportunities for quizbowl tourism.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:00 pm

Bruce, I have room for you on my couch. Come on over.

Martin, welcome to this forum. I wanted to point out to you that the American canon and distribution evolved over many years and reflects thousands of packets submitted by participating teams. For the sake of convenience, we try to import American tournaments wholesale and then change just a few things. Ideally, a few packet-submission tournaments in this country would eventually produce a much clearer picture of what is or is not gettable for players in this country. Whether this happens depends largely on how active the Cambridge and Manchester teams become.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Martin » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:34 pm

Oh, I agree completely. You run a packet-submission tournament, and I'll submit a packet. I'll even include pronunciation guides for the Irish mythology questions ("kooka-LANE" my ass).
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:21 pm

What other American tournaments are there UK mirror plans for? ACF Regionals? Penn Bowl? NAQT SCT again, I imagine.

How open would British quizbowl be to a Chicago Open style event? For those not in the US, Chicago Open is a tournament held during the summer, when US schools aren't in session. Anybody can play (you don't have to be a currnet student), and people can play on teams with whoever they want (they don't all have to go to the same school).
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Kyle » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:38 pm

Morraine Man wrote:What other American tournaments are there UK mirror plans for? ACF Regionals? Penn Bowl? NAQT SCT again, I imagine.

How open would British quizbowl be to a Chicago Open style event? For those not in the US, Chicago Open is a tournament held during the summer, when US schools aren't in session. Anybody can play (you don't have to be a currnet student), and people can play on teams with whoever they want (they don't all have to go to the same school).
The only remaining mirror of an American tournament scheduled in this country is the SCT, which is absolutely the worst possible set to run from the perspective of this country because it is much more heavily American than any ACF or mACF set (because of the extra trash, extra current events, and even more disproportionate influence on American geography). I would much prefer to run something else, but the problem is that people want to go to the ICT.

It is also important, I think, for there to be a tournament run somewhere other than Oxford. The problem is that we have by far the largest and most active team. Cambridge, which is the second largest, isn't terribly convenient, although we would send a bunch of teams to a tournament there. Ideally, we would like for there to be a tournament at some point in Manchester or York, but I don't know how likely that is to happen in the near future.

There are quite a lot of alumni quiz enthusiasts wandering around this island, such that an open tournament would attract quite a lot of people. In fact, we're hosting an open tournament next weekend on Briticized IS sets with a full field of 16. (Yes, you read correctly the source of the questions that will be played by grown adults, many of them extremely experienced) Nevertheless, open tournaments are absolutely not a priority because it's much, much more important to me to get an independent student circuit started up. The other problem with the summer is that I and many others am very likely not to be on this continent (in much the same way that I haven't been in the US at the same time as CO since 2006).
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:49 pm

Those of us who are shortly leaving education would appreciate a regular open tournament in the UK, I think!

Also I have been less down on American geography ever since I beat KHF and Minnesota to the Nevada question at ICT, based entirely on my knowledge of the locations of world speed record attempts.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Edmund » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:59 pm

Martin wrote:Just popping in to say hello from Cambridge, and to thank the Oxford guys again for an excellently-run tournament. Hopefully the Varsity match will give us a chance to reciprocate.

...
I should say thank you for the thank you, too. We're all looking forward to Varsity since it keeps getting more and more competitive!

Yes, the Llywelyn the Great question was mine. Sorry that as an Englishman I can't pronounce Irish folk heroes' names. And as for the literature, it would be an interesting exercise to try to Briticise that - the staffers didn't include anyone who might consider themselves competent to write literature though, so the regional bias of the distribution might have been bettered only at the (severe) expense of question quality.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:11 pm

There's space on the American college quizbowl calendar in mid to late March. Perhaps some kind of "International Bowl" submission tournament can be hastily arranged, with sites in the US, Canada, and UK.
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Re: British ACF Fall @ Oxford, 20/11/10

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:42 pm

Martin wrote:although I assume Llewelyn the Great isn't a typical fixture in US competitive quizzing.
Well, he wasn't before this weekend!
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