Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

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Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:34 pm

So I started by asking whether or not there would be any anime at Penn Bowl, and as I don't intend to blow up that board with generally unrelated discussion, I started this.

I just wanted to kind of see what everyone else's opinions were on the subject. Most tournaments have a 1/0 or 0/1 distribution for comics, so I thought that anime should be at least included in this at least occasionally. Like, I mean it doesn't have to appear that often, but I think it should be more represented than it is now, especially due to the increasing amount of popularity that some animes are gaining.

I just want to hear from other people if they believe the same thing, or if it should be something that should be regulated to maybe appearing once a tournament, if at all.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:37 pm

No.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Auroni » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:37 pm

Anime has not been included in trash tournaments because most people that play trash tournaments are viscerally and morally opposed to both it and to the group of traditional anime-enjoyers.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by MicroEStudent » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:49 pm

I have to agree with Auroni here. I have to deal with anime and their enthusiasts a lot more than I want to (I share an office with the VP of the Anime Club, the largest one at a US university. It looks like a Hello Kitty factory exploded in his cubicle), and however irrational it is to dislike anime because of people that like it, I just can't stand it.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Bartleby » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:00 am

I think that anime appeals to too small a subset of the population to justify appearing more than it does. That, and I'm also violently opposed to it.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Habitat_Against_Humanity » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:12 am

I'm opposed to it on general principle because I find the stuff absolutely noxious. However, that by itself isn't necessarily a good reason to get rid of it. A better argument would be that any moron with a modicum of exposure to American popular culture can be expected to be able to answer a question on Batman and Spiderman and the like by the giveaway, but very, very few people could do the same with Cowboy Bebop or whatever the hell nonsense comprises anime and its ilk.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Charbroil » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:25 am

every time i refresh i have a new name wrote:...viscerally and morally opposed to both it and to the group of traditional anime-enjoyers.
Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason why you'd be morally opposed to anime? I didn't know there was anything inherently morally objectionable to anime.
Habitat_Against_Humanity wrote:A better argument would be that any moron with a modicum of exposure to American popular culture can be expected to be able to answer a question on Batman and Spiderman and the like by the giveaway, but very, very few people could do the same with Cowboy Bebop or whatever the hell nonsense comprises anime and its ilk.
I have to wonder whether there are really that many more people interested in everything else that does come up in trash than are interested in anime. Obviously, not every topic in trash is well known on the level of Batman and Spiderman.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Mike Bentley » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:30 am

This is dumb. Of course anime is a legitimate thing to ask about and if you ask about it in the right ways it makes for a good tossup or bonus. There are plenty of anime answer lines that would be answered by a vast majority of the field at lots of tournaments (stuff like Spirited Away, AstroBoy, the Pokemon anime and Naruto all come immediately to mind). Not asking about something because some cadre of quizbowlers don't like the topic is ridiculous.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Auroni » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:41 am

Charbroil wrote:
every time i refresh i have a new name wrote:...viscerally and morally opposed to both it and to the group of traditional anime-enjoyers.
Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason why you'd be morally opposed to anime? I didn't know there was anything inherently morally objectionable to anime.
I think I articulated the gist of the position of the typical anti-anime trash player, but I'm not equipped to argue about any specifics, so it will have to wait till the first of them elaborates on this point.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:42 am

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:This is dumb. Of course anime is a legitimate thing to ask about and if you ask about it in the right ways it makes for a good tossup or bonus. There are plenty of anime answer lines that would be answered by a vast majority of the field at lots of tournaments (stuff like Spirited Away, AstroBoy, the Pokemon anime and Naruto all come immediately to mind). Not asking about something because some cadre of quizbowlers don't like the topic is ridiculous.
This is what I'm really getting at. I feel that is under represented, but I think especially since some of the animes are even less obscure than a lot of the other stuff that comes up in trash tournaments it has a right to be there. I could understand people arguing that it shouldn't be there because some people could end up writing questions about animes that haven't even been released in English yet, but that could be easily fixed by saying that only animes that have been released in the US are appropriate. Also some of these animes have higher grossings than many of the other cartoon shows that are on TV now, which means that it is popular culture, the point of a trash tournament.

Personally I feel that there hasn't been a valid argument against anime: "I don't want it there because I don't like it" and "Who cares" aren't reasons why it shouldn't be there. If somebody was able to come forward with a valid reason as to why it should not be there then I feel this discussion would hold more merit to those that are opposed.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by adosreme » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:48 am

Habitat_Against_Humanity wrote:I'm opposed to it on general principle because I find the stuff absolutely noxious. However, that by itself isn't necessarily a good reason to get rid of it. A better argument would be that any moron with a modicum of exposure to American popular culture can be expected to be able to answer a question on Batman and Spiderman and the like by the giveaway, but very, very few people could do the same with Cowboy Bebop or whatever the hell nonsense comprises anime and its ilk.
This would probably be my exact argument regarding the subject. While I'm not a fan of anime, I think that it is both sufficiently popular and "trashy" that I wouldn't agree with removing it entirely from tournaments. The key, as with any subject in both academic and trash quizbowl, is picking answer lines and subjects that are reasonable for the tournament's intended audience. For example, I can see anime tossups being written about Avatar: The Last Airbender or Ash Ketchum that I would be surprised to see go dead in any significant percentage of rooms, though the former's gettibility would mostly be thanks to the recent movie. The real trouble is when people, for whatever reasons they may have, start writing questions at the wrong difficulty level (as a hypothetical example, even though Deathnote is extremely popular from what I understand, I don't think that a large majority of people could answer a tossup on it by the giveaway, much less a tossup on its protagonist)
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Matt Weiner » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:53 am

I don't care about the fact that something like Spirited Away is technically anime; if a good writer wants to write a question on a reasonably well-known movie, they should go ahead and do so.

The problem is with the other 99% of anime and anime fans writing questions. Anime fans are famous for their lack of perspective on what is good or what is important. When you devote substantial time in your life to watching anime, you tend to start ignoring other things, and you think that normal people have the slightest idea of what this crap is. We don't. Everything but a countable-on-two-hands list of answers that are known for other reasons is unaskable by the standards of reasonable difficulty, and it's extremely odious besides. The fact that a lot of anime questions will encourage more unshowered weirdos carrying around pillows with drawings of naked adolescent girls on them to play quizbowl is something that I do in fact consider in my opposition to any expansion of the anime distribution.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:56 am

adosreme wrote:
Habitat_Against_Humanity wrote:I'm opposed to it on general principle because I find the stuff absolutely noxious. However, that by itself isn't necessarily a good reason to get rid of it. A better argument would be that any moron with a modicum of exposure to American popular culture can be expected to be able to answer a question on Batman and Spiderman and the like by the giveaway, but very, very few people could do the same with Cowboy Bebop or whatever the hell nonsense comprises anime and its ilk.
This would probably be my exact argument regarding the subject. While I'm not a fan of anime, I think that it is both sufficiently popular and "trashy" that I wouldn't agree with removing it entirely from tournaments. The key, as with any subject in both academic and trash quizbowl, is picking answer lines and subjects that are reasonable for the tournament's intended audience. For example, I can see anime tossups being written about Avatar: The Last Airbender or Ash Ketchum that I would be surprised to see go dead in any significant percentage of rooms, though the former's gettibility would mostly be thanks to the recent movie. The real trouble is when people, for whatever reasons they may have, start writing questions at the wrong difficulty level (as a hypothetical example, even though Deathnote is extremely popular from what I understand, I don't think that a large majority of people could answer a tossup on it by the giveaway, much less a tossup on its protagonist)
The DeathNote reference is a good point. You have to know your audience. I'm not saying people should be going out there and asking questions on what Claire's mentor's name is from Claymore but I believe that if you asked questions about maybe Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, and Deathnote (the four highest rated animes and mangas in the US and Japan) it would be ok. You would really need to start out with baby steps in introducing it to the trash community. You couldn't go from zero anime to asking about something obscure like xxxHolicxxx or Heroic Age. I'm not saying that everyone should drop all other forms of comics/cartoons to include this, but I feel as if the subject warrants more than the maybe just one appearance at a tournament.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:01 am

Matt Weiner wrote:I don't care about the fact that something like Spirited Away is technically anime; if a good writer wants to write a question on a reasonably well-known movie, they should go ahead and do so.

The problem is with the other 99% of anime and anime fans writing questions. Anime fans are famous for their lack of perspective on what is good or what is important. When you devote substantial time in your life to watching anime, you tend to start ignoring other things, and you think that normal people have the slightest idea of what this crap is. We don't. Everything but a countable-on-two-hands list of answers that are known for other reasons is unaskable by the standards of reasonable difficulty, and it's extremely odious besides. The fact that a lot of anime questions will encourage more unshowered weirdos carrying around pillows with drawings of naked adolescent girls on them to play quizbowl is something that I do in fact consider in my opposition to any expansion of the anime distribution.
I'm not sure that you realize this but the vast majorities of animes do not have anything of the kind in them. Animes do have age ratings (much like movies) so you can figure out which ones are the ones that should be avoided. I thoroughly enjoy watching anime as well as reading manga but I don't go carrying around anything in the nature of a pillow with a naked adolescent girl on it. It's just plain weird and creepy and that's something that's wrong with the person not anime.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Papa's in the House » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:04 am

Bartleby wrote:I think that anime appeals to too small a subset of the population
If this assertion held true, then Pokemon (and various other franchises) would not have been and would not continue to have such a large fan base. I don't think that US soccer has a strong fan base; does that mean that we should ban questions on US soccer? Anime is popular culture, so you can't say that it should absolutely never be found in a trash tournament. Now, if the editor chooses not to allow anime to appear in his/her tournament, then that's their prerogative and I shouldn't be complaining.

Just some food for thought: "I [thought] that [kinbaku appealed] to too small a subset of the population," but then I learned about Shibaricon. I now know not to make such assumptions.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Matt Weiner » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:08 am

Here is my Simple English Wikipedia conclusion to the argument.

Spirited Away and Pokemon get asked plenty. They will continue to get asked plenty. No one is saying they should stop being asked. Anything that is a legitimate topic within the movie or TV categories, that also happens to be anime, can be asked within those categories. Anything that needs to have an "anime" category to be asked, should not be asked. It is too hard. You should not write questions that are too hard. If you have a master plan to gradually introduce questions on Super Glorious Rapebot 120% to trash, you're advocating for making quizbowl worse and you should be fought against. Most anime fans are, in fact, smelly perverts whose interests should carry no weight in any discussion. The end.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:18 am

Matt Weiner wrote:Here is my Simple English Wikipedia conclusion to the argument.

Spirited Away and Pokemon get asked plenty. They will continue to get asked plenty. No one is saying they should stop being asked. Anything that is a legitimate topic within the movie or TV categories, that also happens to be anime, can be asked within those categories. Anything that needs to have an "anime" category to be asked, should not be asked. It is too hard. You should not write questions that are too hard. If you have a master plan to gradually introduce questions on Super Glorious Rapebot 120% to trash, you're advocating for making quizbowl worse and you should be fought against. Most anime fans are, in fact, smelly perverts whose interests should carry no weight in any discussion. The end.
Did you just miss everything I said?

I believe, I stated I was opposed to the idea of under age naked girls, which is a pretty good indication that I'm also opposed to the idea of introducing animes that have echhi or any form of hentai in them. I think legitimate animes that are popular and don't go against my aforementioned stipulation should be asked more than once an eternity. All of the animes that I listed don't have anything in the nature some "Super Glorious Rapebot" in it. Furthermore anything with rape or nudity isn't even classified as anime it's classified as hentai, which again I don't want to see asked ever. And to be quite honest I find most people's personal hygiene to be lacking so that really isn't that much of an argument either.

You said that if it is a convertible question that fits inside the movie or TV categories it could be tossed up. Well I'm pretty sure that was the intention of me posting. I would like to see more people open minded to the idea of including it withing these categories, since it is almost completely lacking at this point.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Cheynem » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:23 am

Weiner is saying, albeit with some delightfully typical Weinerian pep, that anime DOES come up in trash tournaments. The reason it doesn't come up more is that to do so would start to result in some inaccessible questions, as anime, like all sorts of things with fervent minority followings (wrestling, hockey, NASCAR racing to name sports examples) cannot be converted on the same level as questions on other forms of pop culture. Accessible anime does and should come up in trash tournaments.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by adosreme » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:30 am

Matt Weiner wrote:I don't care about the fact that something like Spirited Away is technically anime; if a good writer wants to write a question on a reasonably well-known movie, they should go ahead and do so.

The problem is with the other 99% of anime and anime fans writing questions. Anime fans are famous for their lack of perspective on what is good or what is important. When you devote substantial time in your life to watching anime, you tend to start ignoring other things, and you think that normal people have the slightest idea of what this crap is. We don't.
I feel that this is not limited to anime (I'm looking at you, Indie rock) and is a product of inexperience in question writing that can be solved as players write for/attend tournaments. I've been and still am guilty of writing bad questions but feel that, with every tournament I go to or write for, I learn a little bit more about it. (e.x. "Wow, I thought tossup X in category Y was easy but it only got converted in one room" and "I just moderated at tournament Z and the questions on category Y looked like this. I'll consider that when I write my next tossup on category Y")
Matt Weiner wrote:it's extremely odious besides. The fact that a lot of anime questions will encourage more unshowered weirdos carrying around pillows with drawings of naked adolescent girls on them to play quizbowl is something that I do in fact consider in my opposition to any expansion of the anime distribution.
I've never seen anything like this happen, but I'm pretty sure that my response would be to complain to the TD about it. If I was the TD, I would inform the player that the behaviour in question is unacceptable. Maybe a discussion on social acceptibility and respect for both fellow players and the tournament space is in order.
Andrew Jackson's Compatriot wrote:The DeathNote reference is a good point. You have to know your audience. I'm not saying people should be going out there and asking questions on what Claire's mentor's name is from Claymore but I believe that if you asked questions about maybe Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, and Deathnote (the four highest rated animes and mangas in the US and Japan) it would be ok.
My gut feeling is that I disagree with this and that is in fact my point. Just because something is popular within a certain circle doesn't mean that it is difficulty appropriate. Though I am just one person, I can tell you that I might be able to get Naruto 25-50% of the time and maybe One Piece and Deathnote, though a correct answer on either would be the result of a lucky guess or reflex buzz based on the one or two things I know about each (One Piece is about a guy who eats a fruit and gets superpowers, Deathnote has a character named L). Despite its popularity, I cannot tell you anything significant about Bleach, including characters, plot or basic premise.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:30 am

Cheynem wrote:Weiner is saying, albeit with some delightfully typical Weinerian pep, that anime DOES come up in trash tournaments. The reason it doesn't come up more is that to do so would start to result in some inaccessible questions, as anime, like all sorts of things with fervent minority followings (wrestling, hockey, NASCAR racing to name sports examples) cannot be converted on the same level as questions on other forms of pop culture. Accessible anime does and should come up in trash tournaments.
I agree it should come up. Stuff with rape and naked girls should not. Period. What I'm advocating is that more people should be more open to the idea of including it more in tournaments. And what I mean by anime category, which Weiner seemed to twist an awful bit, is an animated cartoon produced in Japan. Weiner remarked that if it needed its own category it would be too hard. I never said that it should have its own category, just a small sub category with TV or Film. Maybe up the distribution to 1/1 over the span of four to six rounds.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:38 am

Joe, you clearly have not spent enough time around anime fans on a college campus if you don't understand that the people Matt Weiner described are in fact a huge part of anime's core fans.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

adosreme wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:I don't care about the fact that something like Spirited Away is technically anime; if a good writer wants to write a question on a reasonably well-known movie, they should go ahead and do so.

The problem is with the other 99% of anime and anime fans writing questions. Anime fans are famous for their lack of perspective on what is good or what is important. When you devote substantial time in your life to watching anime, you tend to start ignoring other things, and you think that normal people have the slightest idea of what this crap is. We don't.
I feel that this is not limited to anime (I'm looking at you, Indie rock) and is a product of inexperience in question writing that can be solved as players write for/attend tournaments. I've been and still am guilty of writing bad questions but feel that, with every tournament I go to or write for, I learn a little bit more about it. (e.x. "Wow, I thought tossup X in category Y was easy but it only got converted in one room" and "I just moderated at tournament Z and the questions on category Y looked like this. I'll consider that when I write my next tossup on category Y")
Matt Weiner wrote:it's extremely odious besides. The fact that a lot of anime questions will encourage more unshowered weirdos carrying around pillows with drawings of naked adolescent girls on them to play quizbowl is something that I do in fact consider in my opposition to any expansion of the anime distribution.
I've never seen anything like this happen, but I'm pretty sure that my response would be to complain to the TD about it. If I was the TD, I would inform the player that the behaviour in question is unacceptable. Maybe a discussion on social acceptibility and respect for both fellow players and the tournament space is in order.
Andrew Jackson's Compatriot wrote:The DeathNote reference is a good point. You have to know your audience. I'm not saying people should be going out there and asking questions on what Claire's mentor's name is from Claymore but I believe that if you asked questions about maybe Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, and Deathnote (the four highest rated animes and mangas in the US and Japan) it would be ok.
My gut feeling is that I disagree with this and that is in fact my point. Just because something is popular within a certain circle doesn't mean that it is difficulty appropriate. Though I am just one person, I can tell you that I might be able to get Naruto 25-50% of the time and maybe One Piece and Deathnote, though a correct answer on either would be the result of a lucky guess or reflex buzz based on the one or two things I know about each (One Piece is about a guy who eats a fruit and gets superpowers, Deathnote has a character named L). Despite its popularity, I cannot tell you anything significant about Bleach, including characters, plot or basic premise.
I completely understand what your saying. For some it could be too hard, while for others it would be like it was a questions in a middle school tournament, much like all of quizbowl. Personally I'm terrible with sports trivia; I won't lie, I probably wouldn't beat out anyone on a sports tossup except for the slim possibility of tennis. That's just the nature of trash: you have people that are great with one subject but terrible with another.

Think about it this way:
You are playing a highschool tournament and you just heard for the first time a subject that you hadn't heard before. Most people would go look it up so they would know what it is for the next time it gets tossed up. I feel like that is what could potentially happen here. If you like playing trash you would probably go wiki it and see what its about.

I'm not advocating going from almost zero to a Trashionals level difficulty with this, just I, personally, would like to see it more gradually introduced to the trash cannon.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:42 am

Cheynem wrote:Weiner is saying, albeit with some delightfully typical Weinerian pep, that anime DOES come up in trash tournaments. The reason it doesn't come up more is that to do so would start to result in some inaccessible questions, as anime, like all sorts of things with fervent minority followings (wrestling, hockey, NASCAR racing to name sports examples) cannot be converted on the same level as questions on other forms of pop culture. Accessible anime does and should come up in trash tournaments.
Bentley Like Beckham wrote:This is dumb. Of course anime is a legitimate thing to ask about and if you ask about it in the right ways it makes for a good tossup or bonus. There are plenty of anime answer lines that would be answered by a vast majority of the field at lots of tournaments (stuff like Spirited Away, AstroBoy, the Pokemon anime and Naruto all come immediately to mind). Not asking about something because some cadre of quizbowlers don't like the topic is ridiculous.
The above statements are totally on the ball. The biggest historic problem with anime in quizbowl has been that there's no middle ground when it comes to people's interest--there is, or had been, a group of people that don't care about it and/or are specifically uninterested in it, and a group of people who are so far into it that they have no idea what constitutes a reasonable or answerable question, and have also clamored loudly for more questions on anime because they lack the necessary perspective to understand accessibility. This isn't necessarily the situation now and doesn't have to be in the future, and people are certainly right that no one should really complain about a small amount of well-written questions on accessible-enough anime-related subjects.

EDIT: I would hesitate to overstate the proportional representation of noxious body-pillow-toting social midgets in the entirety of "people with some interest in anime", but if you take out some of the aforementioned Weinerian pep, there's an extremely valued point to be made about how a lot of people who are interested in anime are VERY interested in anime and have, as I said, no perspective about the subject.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:45 am

Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:Joe, you clearly have not spent enough time around anime fans on a college campus if you don't understand that the people Matt Weiner described are in fact a huge part of anime's core fans.
Dear god... there are strange people that like something?!!!? I never would have known. Thank you for informing me.

I get the point that some people who like anime are weird, I'm not denying that. I agree with that. There are some total whackos out there that like anime, just like anything else. I personally find the people that like NASCAR are just as strange and weird. It's just a culture I don't get, just like many of you don't get anime. I understand that you may not like it, and I may not like NASCAR, but I feel that since both are pieces of pop culture they both have as much right to be in a tournament.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by jdeliverer » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:54 am

Who the hell cares what the average anime fan is like? I fail to see how that pertains to the subject of whether it should be asked in quizbowl. Matt Weiner's post up until the last 3 sentences seems to sum the issue up pretty well, unless anyone disagrees with it.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:54 am

Ukonvasara wrote:EDIT: I would hesitate to overstate the proportional representation of noxious body-pillow-toting social midgets in the entirety of "people with some interest in anime", but if you take out some of the aforementioned Weinerian pep, there's an extremely valued point to be made about how a lot of people who are interested in anime are VERY interested in anime and have, as I said, no perspective about the subject.
True there are: that's why I'm pretty much angering every serious trash player by suggesting that we as a quizbowl community should step back and look at what would be acceptable in terms of anime, because I feel as if it is too under-represented. I am a large anime fan in terms of the fact that I will watch a wide varieties of anime, but that doesn't mean I know everything about every anime, nor do I particularly want to. I think it might be helpful if someone besides me who has watched some anime were able to come up with some "sample" tossups on a few animes and have the trash community as a whole judge them on their merits as tossups and accessibility, not on whether or not they hate the subject.

*EDIT* Me and someone else produce maybe two or three questions that we think would be at an accessible difficulty.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Cheynem » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:59 am

But...they have! There are and have been and will continue to be tossups on like Spirited Away, Pokeymon, probably some Naruto or Dragonball questions here and there at all kinds of tournaments. If you're saying it should go beyond that, I have a feeling those will not be converted by enough of an audience.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:04 am

Cheynem wrote:But...they have! There are and have been and will continue to be tossups on like Spirited Away, Pokeymon, probably some Naruto or Dragonball questions here and there at all kinds of tournaments. If you're saying it should go beyond that, I have a feeling those will not be converted by enough of an audience.
I know it does. What I'm saying is that appearing maybe once a tournament is too few an occurrence. And also, we keep hearing about these very dated animes, not any of the modern main stream ones. I would like to just see a revamping of the animes that are present, not always Spirited Away, Dragon Ball, and Pokemon, whose ascertainable clues have nearly been exhausted.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by adosreme » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:25 am

Andrew Jackson's Compatriot wrote:I would like to just see a revamping of the animes that are present, not always Spirited Away, Dragon Ball, and Pokemon, whose ascertainable clues have nearly been exhausted.
I feel that trash in particular, since people generally don't "study" for it like they do academic quizbowl, has to be about what people are likely to already know and, unfortunately, most of what people know about anime comes from what is on mainstream television and what attracts media attention (e.g. awards, etc.). As I stated before, I might try Avatar: The Last Airbender as it recently had a major studio film made and, even though Wikipedia tells me it's over, I don't think I've seen it come up too often and it is therefore "new" to many quizbowlers.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by MLafer » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:01 am

Avatar is not an anime; it's made by Americans.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by DumbJaques » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:56 am

Oh this whole thread sucks donkey balls. Look, this line of discussion is pointless, dude from Charter. There are a million and one good reasons to not have tossups on stuff from Claymore or whatever, and none of them have anything to do with Godzilla rear-ending an octopus or whatever bullshit creepy weirdos are into these days. It's probably like, not appealing and shit to listen to Matt when he's implying you may support pedophilia, but he's absolutely right in his characterization of people writing on legitimate answer lines that just happen to relate to some kind of cartoon that was Japanese in origin. That's fine, that happens all the time, and nobody is trying to get rid of it. That does NOT mean it's time to start tossing up some show about animated battles between households cleaning products because the first two seasons are on hulu or whatever.

Also, people keep saying that you're wrong not because they think you carry little girl pillows, but because the things you are posting are not correct. You're complaining that you want "more mainstream" stuff rather than Pokemon, Spirited Away, or Naruto (which I don't know that you could even fairly call "mainstream" in a broad sense). Stuff like [x, y, and z animes you listed that I've never heard of] are not "more mainstream," because drastically fewer people could be expected to have any familiarity with them.

Someone has probably pointed this out by now, but just because you have seen stupid bonuses on fringe crap before does not mean it's a good idea to introduce more fringe crap into trash sets. We should stop writing those fucking indie music bonuses, too, but that's a different thread.

Incidentally, before I get any juvenile lectures on the hygiene or pathologies of anime fans, be aware that
A) I have plenty of normal friends who enjoy various cartoons drawn by Japanese people. They are not rapists.
B) I once spent 8 hours in car with Carlos Ross, so if you try to preach to me about how pleasant anime fans are as a people or something like that I will very likely stab you in the face with a dull hello kitty penknife.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by adosreme » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:12 pm

MLafer wrote:Avatar is not an anime; it's made by Americans.
Well whadaya know? It sure is! Looks like you learn something new every day.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:40 pm

I get it. I'm up against the entirety of quizbowl here. I just feel differently than the vasy majority that are opposed to it.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Cheynem » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:49 pm

I mean if it helps, set aside the "anime fans are disturbing freaks" sub current of this argument and think in terms of accessibility: people get mad at questions on third tier NASCAR drivers, indie songs, Joss Whedon characters, etc. because just not enough people can answer them, even though the people who are into it probably can roll twelve tier deep in terms of knowledge. If you like anime, feel free to write some accessible anime questions for packets you write, especially perhaps in common link or bonus varieties, but I'm going to say that the potential answer space for anime that is accessible to most quizbowlers is pretty small.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Bartleby » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:31 pm

Papa's in the House wrote:
Bartleby wrote:I think that anime appeals to too small a subset of the population
If this assertion held true, then Pokemon (and various other franchises) would not have been and would not continue to have such a large fan base. I don't think that US soccer has a strong fan base; does that mean that we should ban questions on US soccer? Anime is popular culture, so you can't say that it should absolutely never be found in a trash tournament. Now, if the editor chooses not to allow anime to appear in his/her tournament, then that's their prerogative and I shouldn't be complaining.

Just some food for thought: "I [thought] that [kinbaku appealed] to too small a subset of the population," but then I learned about Shibaricon. I now know not to make such assumptions.
I'm sorry, I think perhaps there is some misunderstanding here. I'm not advocating for the removal of anime from trash; I simply believe that its current representation is adequate.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by marnold » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:40 pm

Andrew Jackson's Compatriot wrote:I get it. I'm up against the entirety of quizbowl here. I just feel differently than the vasy majority that are opposed to it.
and that's why your are wrong

*dusts off hands*
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Papa's in the House » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:06 pm

Bartleby wrote:I'm sorry, I think perhaps there is some misunderstanding here. I'm not advocating for the removal of anime from trash; I simply believe that its current representation is adequate.
Sorry about that. I agree with you that it is represented well enough.

And just to show that anime does come up in trash tournaments:
Trashtwostrophe Round 3 Question 15 wrote: Before this series focuses on the namesake weapon, it followed the protagonist as he tried to become a Vaizard to combat the Espada of the Arrancar. Before those events, the title character must defend a second world from the Bount invasion. The main character of this series had earlier invaded that place, the (*) Soul Society, when trying to save Rukia Kuchiki. This series begins when Rukia battles a Hollow outside the main character’s house. For 10 points, identify this anime and manga series in which Ichigo Kurosaki becomes a substitute Soul Reaper and that shares a name with a household product used to get stains out of white clothing.
ANSWER: Bleach
The original submitted tossup did not include the italicized text. I am not by any means endorsing using this tournament as a model for future trash tournaments; I am simply providing an example of an accessible anime question for a high school trash tournament.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:39 pm

Papa's in the House wrote:
Bartleby wrote:I'm sorry, I think perhaps there is some misunderstanding here. I'm not advocating for the removal of anime from trash; I simply believe that its current representation is adequate.
Sorry about that. I agree with you that it is represented well enough.

And just to show that anime does come up in trash tournaments:
Trashtwostrophe Round 3 Question 15 wrote: Before this series focuses on the namesake weapon, it followed the protagonist as he tried to become a Vaizard to combat the Espada of the Arrancar. Before those events, the title character must defend a second world from the Bount invasion. The main character of this series had earlier invaded that place, the (*) Soul Society, when trying to save Rukia Kuchiki. This series begins when Rukia battles a Hollow outside the main character’s house. For 10 points, identify this anime and manga series in which Ichigo Kurosaki becomes a substitute Soul Reaper and that shares a name with a household product used to get stains out of white clothing.
ANSWER: Bleach
The original submitted tossup did not include the italicized text. I am not by any means endorsing using this tournament as a model for future trash tournaments; I am simply providing an example of an accessible anime question for a high school trash tournament.
Given that Bleach is wildly popular within the anime community, it seems to be a reasonable enough answer line. (Granted, having never seen/read any Bleach wouldn't stop me from buzzing on "Soul Society"; I might move that past Rukia somehow--I also might include shinigami somewhere instead of relying on the somewhat-idiosyncratic "soul reaper" translation, but that's specific criticism of the question and totally irrelevant to everything else.)
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Matt Weiner » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:02 pm

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Given that bleach is wildly popular within the anime community
if only
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:14 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Given that bleach is wildly popular within the anime community
if only
Except that it is the highest grossing and rated anime in both the US and Japan.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Frater Taciturnus » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Andrew Jackson's Compatriot wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Given that bleach is wildly popular within the anime community
if only
Except that it is the highest grossing and rated anime in both the US and Japan.
words can mean multiple things now?!
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Cheynem » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:22 pm

That Matt Weiner, he makes jokes. He's the Mort Sahl of these boards. Read it again.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Black-throated Antshrike » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:23 pm

Frater Taciturnus wrote:
Andrew Jackson's Compatriot wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:Given that bleach is wildly popular within the anime community
if only
Except that it is the highest grossing and rated anime in both the US and Japan.
words can mean multiple things now?!
Dear god that can't be allowed
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Bartleby » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:26 pm

Papa's in the House wrote:
Bartleby wrote:I'm sorry, I think perhaps there is some misunderstanding here. I'm not advocating for the removal of anime from trash; I simply believe that its current representation is adequate.
Sorry about that. I agree with you that it is represented well enough.

And just to show that anime does come up in trash tournaments:
Trashtwostrophe Round 3 Question 15 wrote: Before this series focuses on the namesake weapon, it followed the protagonist as he tried to become a Vaizard to combat the Espada of the Arrancar. Before those events, the title character must defend a second world from the Bount invasion. The main character of this series had earlier invaded that place, the (*) Soul Society, when trying to save Rukia Kuchiki. This series begins when Rukia battles a Hollow outside the main character’s house. For 10 points, identify this anime and manga series in which Ichigo Kurosaki becomes a substitute Soul Reaper and that shares a name with a household product used to get stains out of white clothing.
ANSWER: Bleach
The original submitted tossup did not include the italicized text. I am not by any means endorsing using this tournament as a model for future trash tournaments; I am simply providing an example of an accessible anime question for a high school trash tournament.
Precisely. I know we had a "Digimon" reference at TERP, and I think there were perhaps another couple of anime-ish things throughout the tournament. It's not a topic that I have any real knowledge of, nor do I care to. Regardless, it can be a valid subject in trash tournaments. I think that there are some answers like "Bleach", "Cowboy Bebop", perhaps "Avatar: The Last Airbender" (regardless of its country of production), "Pokemon" and "Digimon"... these things are not inaccessible.

When you're writing a tournament, to my mind, you have to split your thought process into two distinct questions:

1) Is this answer line/bonus something that people will know about?
2) How many people will know about it?

Ideally, you want your stuff to fall somewhere in the middle, producing neither buzzer races, nor stunned silences. I just feel (as has been better elucidated by others in this thread) that there simply isn't much anime that doesn't fall into this feast/famine issue.
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Re: Is anime a valid subject in trash tournaments?

Post by Ike » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:54 am

Haha, what?
I just saw this thread while drafting a quick announcement. I think Mike Cheyne et al. have pretty much summed up why what's going on, but I have to come on here and advertise this anime:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonder ... ls_(anime) And the best part is, this isn't even one of those high schooler made Sparknotes bullshit "oh let's candy coat Shakespeare for you to make it fun" anime - its a real anime on the level of My Neighbor Totoro or something obscure. For all of you that intend do well on Scandinavia lit questions that I like to write, its a great way to learn about Selma Lagerlof and to learn Swedish geographical provinces for NAQT at the same time. I think this is the best exposure an ACF author is going to get in Japan until the maker of this Giovanni Verga inspired deviantart artwork finally adds some text and publishes, as that picture is apparently inspired by Verga's Rosso Malpelo.
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