ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Old college threads.
Locked
User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:21 pm

READ ME

I feel this is important enough to have its own thread. I know the tournament is like months away at this point but because quizbowl has a well-known problem with doing things like "renting cars," or "booking airfare and/or hotels," I thought I might prod the lot of you into early action to save yourselves a headache later on.

Ok, first of all, if you're flying, you'll be flying into Pittsburgh International Airport, which is about 25 miles away from the city proper. Take note of this when booking your tickets. If you don't plan to rent a car (and I don't suggest it, for reasons that should become pretty clear in a minute), you will either take a hotel shuttle to where you'll be staying, or the bus. If you are taking the bus, you will want the 28X, which is the only bus that connects the airport to the city proper. Consult the Pittsburgh Port Authority website for information on the bus route. Long story short, the 28X will take you through downtown and Oakland (where Pitt is located) which is pretty much what you want.

Hotels:

If you are not planning to have a car, I strongly suggest booking a 2-bed room at the Quality Inn University Center. According to a search done today (Feb. 6, 2011), such a room should run you about $100 plus tax. This is a pretty good deal especially considering that the hotel is within 20 minutes' walk of the Cathedral of Learning (where the tournament will take place). Even if you are planning to have a car, this is a pretty good setup, since you can just park at the hotel for free and walk to the Cathedral.

I will be calling the hotel in the next few days and trying to see if I can get a group rate. Obviously I can't promise anything, but I will post in this thread once I have more information. Still, I think this is a pretty good deal for something that doesn't require you to rent a car.

If you have staffers who are coming with you or you are a staffer and would like room in a hotel, please let us know (and also register!). We'll do our best to accommodate you. It's better to know sooner than later, otherwise you may find yourself in a sleeping bag on my floor.

Parking:

If you do have a car and for whatever reason decide that you don't like the Quality Inn or you found a better deal some distance away, that's cool. You'll want to know about parking then. The best place to park is in a garage on North Bellefield Ave, just past 5th Ave. The parking garage shares space with a Kaplan test prep center and is across the street from the Pitt Information Sciences Library (a sort of horrific, vaguely bunker-resembling concrete monstrosity; should be easy to spot). That should run you $7 on Saturday. On Sunday you can just park on the street for free. If you keep going north on Bellefield, there are areas beyond campus which do have free parking on Saturday but you have to look for it. The garage is the minimum-hassle solution.

That's all for now. This thread will be updated to reflect any additional relevant logistical information. If you have any logistics questions, feel free to pose them here.

(edit: if a mod could sticky this I'd be ever so appreciative)
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:47 pm

Flights:

I just wanted to update this thread with some information for those of you booking flights to Nationals. I want to remind you all that Nationals is a 2-day tournament and that there will likely be at least 6 rounds plus finals on Sunday. I strongly encourage you all not to count on getting out of the tournament before 4 PM. Although we will do everything within our power to run the tournament as efficiently as possible, delays are not unknown at quizbowl events. Plan accordingly.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:08 pm

IMPORTANT HOTEL INFORMATION

Last week, I posted about the hotel for ACF Nationals. I recommended the Quality Inn University Center, but I made a mistake in reporting the prices. For 4 people, a room with two beds would have been $120. However, we have obtained a group rate with the hotel to reduce that to the $100 that I originally mentioned in the post. So the bad news is that it won't be any cheaper but the good news is that it won't be any more expensive. We have 25 rooms that are being held for us; to get the rate, call the hotel and tell them that you're with ACF Nationals. The rooms have to be reserved no less than a month in advance, otherwise they will release them back to the general pool. Again, I think this is the recommended option for most, possibly all teams. If you have questions or concerns, let me know.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:10 pm

I just want to let everyone know that if you haven't booked a hotel room for the tournament yet, the above offer is still valid for the next few days. You should probably take advantage of it unless you've got a drastically better deal.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6559
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Cheynem » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:12 pm

As far as I can tell from the hotel website, it does not offer a shuttle to/from the airport. How good is the Sunday bus system in Pittsburgh to get to the airport to justify not renting a car?
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Pilgrim
Tidus
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:20 pm
Location: Edmonton

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Pilgrim » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:24 pm

Cheynem wrote:As far as I can tell from the hotel website, it does not offer a shuttle to/from the airport. How good is the Sunday bus system in Pittsburgh to get to the airport to justify not renting a car?
The airport buses run pretty reliably every 30 minutes (I've had a few notable exceptions, but I think those were mostly on heavy traffic weekends). The bus route to the Pitt area is around 50 minutes.
Trevor Davis
University of Alberta
CMU '11

User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:26 pm

Cheynem wrote:As far as I can tell from the hotel website, it does not offer a shuttle to/from the airport. How good is the Sunday bus system in Pittsburgh to get to the airport to justify not renting a car?
Every half hour, on the 25s and 55s, getting to the airport at the 17s and 47s, respectively. You won't find parking in Oakland outside of the hotel/ a five dollar lot no more convenient to anything than the hotel. Car's the wrong choice, basically.

EDIT: trevor stop also being a pittsburgher
Andrew Watkins

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:38 pm

Cheynem wrote:As far as I can tell from the hotel website, it does not offer a shuttle to/from the airport. How good is the Sunday bus system in Pittsburgh to get to the airport to justify not renting a car?
As other people have said, the 28X is pretty reliable. You should not need to rent a car.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:39 pm

Dear ACF Nationals attendees,

First of all, I would like to inform you that if you have not yet booked hotel rooms for the tournament, you can still do so at the Quality Inn specified in the logistics post on HSQB, for that price. This offer is good for only a few more days, so I advise any of you who have not done so to take advantage of it.

Transportation to the tournament site

If you are staying at the recommended hotel, the tournament is within 15-20 minutes' walk away from you. Head northwest on Coltart St. until you get to Forbes Ave, and then turn right. You should see the Cathedral as you approach; you can't miss it, it's quite large. For the rest of you, I assume you'll be able to figure out Google maps from where you are. I recommend parking in the Bellefield lot across the street from the Cathedral if you're driving; it's $7 on Saturday and on Sunday you can park for free on the streets. The pre-tournament meeting will be in the auditorium room 324, on the third floor. The tournament itself will be on the second floor.

If you are coming from the airport and not taking a taxi, I recommend the 28X bus, which takes you straight into Oakland.

On your arrival, I would appreciate it if you could send give me a call or send me a quick text, email, or IM. In the unfortunate but not unprecedented situation that a team misses its flight or some such thing, we'll have to adjust the schedule, so we need to know if you've made it.

Payment

Either tonight or tomorrow night you will receive an email from me with your invoice for the tournament. Please show up ready to pay us. We've put a lot of hard work into this set and we're not going to be happy if you try and welch. Not that anyone would do that, of course, but we really appreciate being paid on time.

Schedule

The next order of business is the schedule of the tournament. As you all know, ACF Nationals will span two days. The breakdown will be as follows:

Saturday:
8:00 - 8:30 -- Arrival and registration, buzzer setup
8:30 - 9:00 -- Initial meeting, announcement of tournament rules, etc.
9:00 - ~1:00 -- First round robin
1:00 - ~2:00 -- Lunch break
2:00 - ~6:00 -- Second round robin
6:00 - ~7:00 -- Clean-up

Following the cleanup on Saturday there will be a scheduling meeting that will take place in a room to be specified at the site of the tournament. Following that meeting, there will also be an official ACF meeting, which will take place at a location to be specified at that time. If you are an ACF member I'd like to request that you attend. Everyone is welcome to attend the scheduling meeting, which will involve discussions of when tournaments are to be run next year.

Also, please note that we request you take your buzzers with you when you leave on Saturday. We do not have any place within the tournament building where the buzzers can be stored and of course we do not want to leave any buzzers unattended.

Sunday:
7:30 - 8:00 -- Arrival and buzzer setup
8:00 - 12:00 -- Final round-robin
12:00 - 1:00 -- Tiebreakers and finals
1:00 - 2:00 -- Awards and cleanup

We realize that this is an ambitious schedule. Things happen that you don't anticipate and that causes delays, so of course the times listed are approximate. We will do our utmost to keep the tournament moving as quickly and efficiently as possible; for that, we require your cooperation, so please: don't be late, don't slow down games with chatter, and in general do everything in your power to keep things going smoothly.

Tournament format

The tournament will have three phases, each of which will consist of a round-robin between the teams in the bracket. The first phase will consist of 4 brackets of 7 teams each, seeded according to our best evaluation of team strength. Following that first round robin (6 games played, 7 rounds), the teams will be rebracketed into 4 more brackets of 7 teams each, split between a top and bottom tier. The way that works is that the top 3 teams in each bracket, plus two of the 4-seeds (as decided by statistical tiebreakers) will advance to the top tier, while the other half of the field will be in the bottom tier. The brackets will be set up such that you play as many of the teams that you haven't played before if possible, but you will have repeat opponents. The third phase of the tournament will result in the top 4 teams from each top tier bracket going into the first finals playoff bracket (8 teams), after which the next 3 teams from each top bracket, plus the top teams from bracket 3 will advance to the second finals bracket. The remaining 12 teams will be split up evenly according to record among the third and fourth finals bracket, with statistical tiebreakers used as necessary. The final bracket will be played on Sunday on the rounds written by the editors.

The following situations will trigger a tiebreaker match:

1) Three teams are tied at the top of the field. In this case, the team with the best statistical tiebreaker (probably PPB) will be in the final automatically, while the other two teams will play for the right to contest a one-game final with the first team.
2) One team is one game clear of the field, while two or more teams are tied for second place. In the case of two tied teams, the procedure will be as in case #1, but with an advantaged final for the team with the best record. In the case of three or more tied teams, the top two teams as determined by a statistical tiebreaker will play the play-in round for the right to contest a disadvantage final against the top seed.

As always, if a team is two games clear of the field at the end, that team will be declared the winner outright. In that case, if the participating teams so wish, there will be a playoff for the second and third place, using the system described above. Otherwise, second and third place will be determined based on a statistical tiebreaker.

DII and Undergrad titles

ACF Nationals will award DII and Undergraduate titles (as well as second and third place trophies) to the best-finishing DII team and undergraduate-only team in the field. There will be no finals matches for these titles unless no other post-playoffs matches are occurring and the teams involved request it; otherwise, record and statistics will be used to determine placement.

That should cover everything, I think. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. I prefer email and am almost always online, but if you need to speak with me directly (or text me as per the request above) you can reach me at 858-882-7899.

I look forward to seeing all of you at ACF Nationals 2011: Quizbowl in the Cathedral.

best,
Jerry Vinokurov
Head Editor, ACF Nationals 2011
Last edited by grapesmoker on Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6559
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Cheynem » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:39 pm

I will personally sacrifice Andy Watkins to Kali Ma if we miss our flight. Thanks for the advice.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
DumbJaques
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 3078
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:21 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by DumbJaques » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:51 pm

Couple of random format questions:

1) In terms of the first playoff bracket results, are your prelim games discounted, or double-counted (in the case of repeat opponents)?
2) Will ties to go into the final playoff bracket from the top two 7-team brackets be broken on paper, or with games/half-games? That is, if the fourth and fifth teams in one of the brackets are both 4-3 or something, how does it work?

(Apologies if these are answered somewhere and I've just missed it).
Chris Ray
OSU
University of Chicago, 2016
University of Maryland, 2014
ACF, PACE

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:59 pm

DumbJaques wrote:Couple of random format questions:

1) In terms of the first playoff bracket results, are your prelim games discounted, or double-counted (in the case of repeat opponents)?
Your losses will only count against teams that advance with you, so any losses to teams that do not advance to the same tier or bracket as you will be wiped clean.
2) Will ties to go into the final playoff bracket from the top two 7-team brackets be broken on paper, or with games/half-games? That is, if the fourth and fifth teams in one of the brackets are both 4-3 or something, how does it work?

(Apologies if these are answered somewhere and I've just missed it).
Right now, on paper. I don't think we have enough packets to break those ties via a game.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
DumbJaques
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 3078
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:21 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by DumbJaques » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:07 am

Your losses will only count against teams that advance with you, so any losses to teams that do not advance to the same tier or bracket as you will be wiped clean.
Thanks. So in the case of repeat opponents, I take this to mean both games will count for final resolution? When teams get to third playoff bracket, will games continue to carry over and be double (triple?) counted?
Right now, on paper. I don't think we have enough packets to break those ties via a game.
Certainly understandable, though I'll hold out hope that these could be broken on even half-packets (particularly given the situation with everyone playing very different schedules over the course of X rounds).
Chris Ray
OSU
University of Chicago, 2016
University of Maryland, 2014
ACF, PACE

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:39 am

DumbJaques wrote:Thanks. So in the case of repeat opponents, I take this to mean both games will count for final resolution? When teams get to third playoff bracket, will games continue to carry over and be double (triple?) counted?
Yes, that's correct. Games against other teams in the top bracket will count in the same manner as before.
Certainly understandable, though I'll hold out hope that these could be broken on even half-packets (particularly given the situation with everyone playing very different schedules over the course of X rounds).
You may be playing a slightly different schedule, but you'll be playing a schedule of more uniform strength. The idea behind this scheme is to give teams more games against like opponents.

edit: just to make it clear, we're going to have 24 packets. The schedule will consume 21 of those, leaving one packet to break any play-in ties and two more to run the finals.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
jonpin
Forums Staff: Moderator
Posts: 2028
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:45 pm
Location: BCA NJ / WUSTL MO / Hackensack NJ

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by jonpin » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:04 pm

One potential situation is that if, for Stage 3, you're counting all games against teams in the top bracket, you might have teams compared on unequal number of games.

Say the original pools are A, B, C, D; the top-tier playoff pools are X, Y. Clearly team X1 will have played X 234 and Y 1234 in Stage Three, and will have played X 234 in Stage Two. But if they were in preliminary pool A which qualified three teams to the top bracket, they'll have games against A2 and A3, for a total of 12 games in its record. Meanwhile, preliminary pool B winds up with only one team that makes it to the top bracket, so B1 only has a total of 10 games in its record. And the two teams from pool C and the two teams from pool D that eventually make the top bracket wind up with 11 games in their record.

I think you should just go back to the default of the official ACF rules which say that when you're playing the entire round-robin, you disregard the preliminary results (I.3.3).
Jon Pinyan
Coach, Bergen County Academies (NJ); former player for BCA (2000-03) and WUSTL (2003-07)
HSQB forum mod, PACE member
Stat director for: NSC '13-'15, '17; ACF '14, '17, '19; NHBB '13-'15; NASAT '11

"A [...] wizard who controls the weather" - Jerry Vinokurov

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:22 am

jonpin wrote:One potential situation is that if, for Stage 3, you're counting all games against teams in the top bracket, you might have teams compared on unequal number of games.

Say the original pools are A, B, C, D; the top-tier playoff pools are X, Y. Clearly team X1 will have played X 234 and Y 1234 in Stage Three, and will have played X 234 in Stage Two. But if they were in preliminary pool A which qualified three teams to the top bracket, they'll have games against A2 and A3, for a total of 12 games in its record. Meanwhile, preliminary pool B winds up with only one team that makes it to the top bracket, so B1 only has a total of 10 games in its record. And the two teams from pool C and the two teams from pool D that eventually make the top bracket wind up with 11 games in their record.

I think you should just go back to the default of the official ACF rules which say that when you're playing the entire round-robin, you disregard the preliminary results (I.3.3).
So in the case you are proposing, the slate would be wiped clean in the final bracket, correct?
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
jonpin
Forums Staff: Moderator
Posts: 2028
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:45 pm
Location: BCA NJ / WUSTL MO / Hackensack NJ

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by jonpin » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:44 pm

grapesmoker wrote:
jonpin wrote:One potential situation is that if, for Stage 3, you're counting all games against teams in the top bracket, you might have teams compared on unequal number of games.

Say the original pools are A, B, C, D; the top-tier playoff pools are X, Y. Clearly team X1 will have played X 234 and Y 1234 in Stage Three, and will have played X 234 in Stage Two. But if they were in preliminary pool A which qualified three teams to the top bracket, they'll have games against A2 and A3, for a total of 12 games in its record. Meanwhile, preliminary pool B winds up with only one team that makes it to the top bracket, so B1 only has a total of 10 games in its record. And the two teams from pool C and the two teams from pool D that eventually make the top bracket wind up with 11 games in their record.

I think you should just go back to the default of the official ACF rules which say that when you're playing the entire round-robin, you disregard the preliminary results (I.3.3).
So in the case you are proposing, the slate would be wiped clean in the final bracket, correct?
Yes. While it feels like you're throwing away the data from Stage Two, it is the only way to ensure that all sets of teams are compared on the same body of work.
Further example #1. Teams A and B are in the same semifinal bracket; Teams C and D are in the other one. Team A goes undefeated all weekend. Team C beats Team D twice (in the semifinals and the final); Team D beats Team B in the final bracket; and Team B beats Team C in the final bracket. All four teams beat all other comers. The standings would be A 10-0, C 8-2, D 7-3, B 7-3, but one could fairly argue that B, C, and D are not really differentiated in that there's essentially a circle of death among the three of them.
Further example #2. A and B together; C on the other side. A goes unbeaten, B defeats C in their head-to-head comparison and both defeat all other comers. A is 10-0, B and C are both 8-2 and tied for second. The only reason B isn't higher than C is that B had the bad luck to have to play the best team twice rather than only once. If A is dominating enough, B's PPG could even be pulled down enough from the repeated game to be lower than C's.

(in both of these cases, I am ignoring the possible deleterious effects of games from the prelim stage carrying over into the final bracket and further distorting the standings)
Jon Pinyan
Coach, Bergen County Academies (NJ); former player for BCA (2000-03) and WUSTL (2003-07)
HSQB forum mod, PACE member
Stat director for: NSC '13-'15, '17; ACF '14, '17, '19; NHBB '13-'15; NASAT '11

"A [...] wizard who controls the weather" - Jerry Vinokurov

Magister Ludi
Tidus
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:57 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Magister Ludi » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:06 am

Sorry to derail the thread, but Harvard had a hotel fuck-up and we are looking for any spare hotel floor space for two people to crash on. If any team has any extra space, a spare chair, or anything at all we would really appreciate it. My email is tedgioia [at] stapower [dot] net. Thanks in advance.
Ted Gioia - Harvard '12
Editor ACF, PACE

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Charbroil » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:28 am

Magister Ludi wrote:Sorry to derail the thread, but Harvard had a hotel fuck-up and we are looking for any spare hotel floor space for two people to crash on. If any team has any extra space, a spare chair, or anything at all we would really appreciate it. My email is tedgioia [at] stapower [dot] net. Thanks in advance.
WUSTL has extra hotel space if you need it; you can meet us at the Quality Inn University Center. I've emailed you my cell phone number to find us Friday.
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:53 am

jonpin wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:
jonpin wrote:One potential situation is that if, for Stage 3, you're counting all games against teams in the top bracket, you might have teams compared on unequal number of games.

Say the original pools are A, B, C, D; the top-tier playoff pools are X, Y. Clearly team X1 will have played X 234 and Y 1234 in Stage Three, and will have played X 234 in Stage Two. But if they were in preliminary pool A which qualified three teams to the top bracket, they'll have games against A2 and A3, for a total of 12 games in its record. Meanwhile, preliminary pool B winds up with only one team that makes it to the top bracket, so B1 only has a total of 10 games in its record. And the two teams from pool C and the two teams from pool D that eventually make the top bracket wind up with 11 games in their record.

I think you should just go back to the default of the official ACF rules which say that when you're playing the entire round-robin, you disregard the preliminary results (I.3.3).
So in the case you are proposing, the slate would be wiped clean in the final bracket, correct?
Yes. While it feels like you're throwing away the data from Stage Two, it is the only way to ensure that all sets of teams are compared on the same body of work.
Further example #1. Teams A and B are in the same semifinal bracket; Teams C and D are in the other one. Team A goes undefeated all weekend. Team C beats Team D twice (in the semifinals and the final); Team D beats Team B in the final bracket; and Team B beats Team C in the final bracket. All four teams beat all other comers. The standings would be A 10-0, C 8-2, D 7-3, B 7-3, but one could fairly argue that B, C, and D are not really differentiated in that there's essentially a circle of death among the three of them.
Further example #2. A and B together; C on the other side. A goes unbeaten, B defeats C in their head-to-head comparison and both defeat all other comers. A is 10-0, B and C are both 8-2 and tied for second. The only reason B isn't higher than C is that B had the bad luck to have to play the best team twice rather than only once. If A is dominating enough, B's PPG could even be pulled down enough from the repeated game to be lower than C's.

(in both of these cases, I am ignoring the possible deleterious effects of games from the prelim stage carrying over into the final bracket and further distorting the standings)
Ok, I think I understand what you're saying. Thanks for taking the time to think through these pathologies; we'll go with a record that gets wiped clean within the final bracket.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Mike Bentley
Auron
Posts: 5782
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Mike Bentley » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:03 pm

So some stats or maybe even a general update would be nice.
Mike Bentley
VP of Editing, Partnership for Academic Competition Excellence
Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008

User avatar
marnold
Tidus
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: NY

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by marnold » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:59 pm

Yale and Minnesota emerged from a massive pileup to play in a one-game final apparently.
Michael Arnold
Chicago 2010
Columbia Law 2013

2009 ACF Nats Champion
2010 ICT Champion
2010 CULT Champion
Member of Mike Cheyne's Quizbowl All-Heel Team

Fundamental Theorem of Quizbowl (Revised): Almost no one is actually good at quizbowl.

User avatar
AKKOLADE
Sin
Posts: 15258
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:08 am

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:13 pm

Per IRC, Yale defeats Minnesota in the final to win.
Fred Morlan
PACE President, 2018-19
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, co-owner
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
hsqbrank manager, NAQT writer (former subject editor), former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator, 2012 NASAT TD

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:04 pm

Congratulations to Yale on their win at ACF Nationals. They put in a very impressive performance. Stats will be available soon-ish.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Senator_Jay
Wakka
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: Hamilton, ON

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Senator_Jay » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:15 pm

I'd just like to extend a well-deserved thanks to all the staff of this tournament, and to Jerry for running a fairly tight ship; despite the difficulty, this was a well-run and enjoyable tournament! If I get the chance to continue playing in 2011-12, I'll definitely try to make it out again next year, hopefully with more teammates. Also, congrats to Yale for a hard-earned win!
Jay Misuk
McMaster University, 2009, 2010, 2016
University of Toronto, 2011, 2017
MSc. (CogSciLing), Hon. BA (Linguistics), BA (History), BEd. (History, Geography, Music, Math)

Tri-national competitor; tri-national neg champion.
To quote the ephemeral Jordan Palmer - "There is no shame, only points"

User avatar
Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat
Rikku
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm
Location: Midland, MI

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:16 pm

I believe this is correct:
Yale and Minnesota reached a one-game final at 5-2 in the top bracket, with Yale winning with a score of somewhere around 200-150. Illinois, Chicago A, Brown, and Michigan were tied at 4-3, with both Harvard and UVA at 1-6. Illinois was 3rd based on statistical tiebreakers.
We won the UG title; I think State college won DII, but I'm not very confident about that.

Edited to correct based on Charles' later post.
Last edited by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michael Hausinger
Coach, Bay City Western High School
formerly of University of Michigan and East Lansing High School

User avatar
TheKingInYellow
Rikku
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:13 pm

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by TheKingInYellow » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:37 pm

State College did win DII
Graham Moyer
State College 2011
Harvard 2015

User avatar
Papa's in the House
Tidus
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:43 pm
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Papa's in the House » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:44 pm

Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat wrote:Chicago A [had] two of their losses... by 5 points.
Fixed.
Charles Martin Jr.
University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Academic Buzzer Team | President
B.S. in Accountancy, August 2011
B.S. in Finance, August 2011
MAS Program, Class of 2012

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:52 pm

Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Gautam
Auron
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:28 pm
Location: Zone of Avoidance
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Gautam » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:59 pm

grapesmoker wrote:Stats.
Could you please enable round report?

Thanks.
Gautam - ACF
Currently tending to the 'quizbowl hobo' persuasion.

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:10 pm

gkandlikar wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:Stats.
Could you please enable round report?

Thanks.
Hey, I'm going to re-enter these stats from the raw scoresheets at some point over the next couple days because I know there are some mistakes in there (such as the apparent syncretism of David Garb and Charles Martin). When that happens I'll enable round report and post an update.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Gautam
Auron
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:28 pm
Location: Zone of Avoidance
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Gautam » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:16 pm

grapesmoker wrote:
gkandlikar wrote:
grapesmoker wrote:Stats.
Could you please enable round report?

Thanks.
Hey, I'm going to re-enter these stats from the raw scoresheets at some point over the next couple days because I know there are some mistakes in there (such as the apparent syncretism of David Garb and Charles Martin). When that happens I'll enable round report and post an update.
Sounds good, thanks.

Also, thanks for running the tournament.
Gautam - ACF
Currently tending to the 'quizbowl hobo' persuasion.

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:08 am

Funny how "Arizona" was playing. The players probably don't mind, but some people take offense when their school gets confused with other schools (i.e. rivals).
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by grapesmoker » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:36 am

nalin wrote:Funny how "Arizona" was playing. The players probably don't mind, but some people take offense when their school gets confused with other schools (i.e. rivals).
I'll make sure to correct this when I update the stats.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
... and the chaos of Mexican modernity
Rikku
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:30 pm
Location: Orlando, Fl

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by ... and the chaos of Mexican modernity » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:16 pm

I just want to thank Jerry and the other editors for putting on such an enjoyable tournament, it also was very fun to play on these very hard questions.
Zach Foster
North Myrtle Beach High School class of 2009
George Mason University class of 2013

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5494
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: ACF Nationals 2011: Logistics

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:28 pm

While we're correcting stats, the Berkeley-Rice game shows the result from before protest resolution. (ie, it shows Berkeley 150, Rice 135 on 20 tossups, while the correct version is Rice 160, Berkeley 150 on 21).
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

Locked