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2012 SCT Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:46 pm
by theMoMA
NAQT is constantly trying to get better at eliminating weird packet issues. Unlike submitted tournaments, which are inherently self-policing (Mike, don't write that lit bonus on the Odyssey; Greek epics already come up in the myth section of our packet!), NAQT's packets are automatically generated by Ginseng. Ginseng is supposed to catch repeats automatically, but sometimes it's thrown for a loop.

When I was reading the set, here are the things I noticed:

Two mentions of Enrico Fermi/atomic chain reactions in one packet.
Two mentions of philosopher kings from the Republic (not in same packet).
Two tossups on circa 1960 Cold War incidents in the same packet.
Two bonus parts on the Biblical Matthew in the same packet.
Multiple bonus parts on "calcium," two of which used the same "muscle contraction" clue.

There may have been a couple others. Anyway, if you could help us by pointing them out here, I'd appreciate it. We did our best to go through the packets and catch all of these things, but sometimes things sneak through the cracks.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:48 pm
by theMoMA
I will also add that we approached this set from the perspective that an answer or a topic could come up multiple times as long as clues were not repeated (in other words, we didn't want players learning what to buzz on/answer from a previous question). So, though there were two tossups that tested for knowledge of Washington Irving, and two bonus prompts on Sir Philip Sidney, that's not the sort of repeat issue we're concerned about (so long as clues were not repeated).

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:53 pm
by Mike Bentley
I believe the first DII packet had two questions on Gilbert and Sullivan operas.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:05 pm
by Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill
theMoMA wrote:I will also add that we approached this set from the perspective that an answer or a topic could come up multiple times as long as clues were not repeated (in other words, we didn't want players learning what to buzz on/answer from a previous question). So, though there were two tossups that tested for knowledge of Washington Irving, and two bonus prompts on Sir Philip Sidney, that's not the sort of repeat issue we're concerned about (so long as clues were not repeated).
Ah, that would explain "The Bells" and the story-oriented Edgar Allen Poe toss-up in different packets.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:16 pm
by jonah
Production of Watchmen wrote:Ah, that would explain "The Bells", The Picture of Dorian Gray, and the general Edgar Allen Poe toss-ups in DII.
How is Dorian Gray relevant?

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:31 pm
by theMoMA
I should add that I didn't contribute to the DII set (except to the extent that questions I edited were converted for DII use).

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:43 pm
by Steeve Ho You Fat
I played DII, so move this post if you want, but I recall four or five rounds where afterwards I wondered if there had been a physics tossup. Did anyone else notice this in DII? Was physics just more likely to show up at the end of packets, or in the later packets of tournaments? Were there were a lot of physical chemistry or biochemistry questions that were classified as physics or something? Or am I just in the small group of people that wants to lose to Jerry Vinokurov and Seth Teitler in a tournament with 5/5 astrophysics and didn't notice that there was just as much physics as normal?

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:44 pm
by Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill
jonah wrote:
Production of Watchmen wrote:Ah, that would explain "The Bells", The Picture of Dorian Gray, and the general Edgar Allen Poe toss-ups in DII.
How is Dorian Gray relevant?
Ladies and gentlemen, why I didn't break 40 PPG at the SCT.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:46 pm
by Important Bird Area
The DII SCT contained 16/15 physics (round 6 was the one lacking a physics bonus).

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:27 pm
by evilmonkey
DII Packet 7 contains two tossups on World War II battles.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:05 am
by 1992 in spaceflight
Mike Bentley wrote:I believe the first DII packet had two questions on Gilbert and Sullivan operas.
I don't know if that's a big deal, though, since it was asking about two different operas (or where one is set, for the bonus part that came up in packet one). However, I have no idea if it is, so I could be wrong.

I really thought that the play lit that came up in the DII set was pretty good. However, was it just me, or did it seem like all of the myth that came up was Greco-Roman? I noticed maybe 3 other myth tossups that weren't this.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:44 am
by The Goffman Prophecies
In DII I recall a tossup on "tales" that included "these 'from the Vienna Woods' by Strauss the Younger, and then a later question on Strauss the Younger that included "Tales from the Vienna Woods" as a clue. They were in separate packets, I believe.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:47 am
by Sima Guang Hater
The tossup on dueling and the tossup on Three Sisters have the same clue about the duel in the Three Sisters.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:33 am
by theMoMA
The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus wrote:The tossup on dueling and the tossup on Three Sisters have the same clue about the duel in the Three Sisters.
All of the clues on dueling are from either that Conrad short story or Eugene Onegin.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:57 am
by samer
The Motley Eye wrote:In DII I recall a tossup on "tales" that included "these 'from the Vienna Woods' by Strauss the Younger, and then a later question on Strauss the Younger that included "Tales from the Vienna Woods" as a clue. They were in separate packets, I believe.
While human eyes should ideally have caught it, this was exactly the sort of thing that Ginseng wouldn't pick up on (with all due respect to R., Ginseng is not as smart as Watson :lol:).

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:35 am
by swwFCqb
There were two (somewhat minor) typo issues I remember hearing in D1 that don't fall into the stated category but should probably be noted anyway:

The abolitionist bonus that included parts on Birney, Garrison, and some other dude listed the date of 1944 instead of 1844.

The same packet as the above bonus featured a tossup with a lead-in sentence with no pronoun. Unfortunately I can't be any more specific about the packet or answer line without having the set in front of me...sorry.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:36 am
by Kyle
swwFCqb wrote:The abolitionist bonus that included parts on Birney, Garrison, and some other dude listed the date of 1944 instead of 1844.
I wrote that question nine months ago and wrote that Birney had run "in 1940 and 1944." That question was edited, then it was briefly part of the ICT in slightly different form, then it was discussed at length, then it was put in the SCT, then it was set edited, and then I looked at it four days ago and didn't notice anything wrong with it. I really can't believe I didn't notice that. Sorry!

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:31 am
by cornfused
I know there was a TU on the Grapes of Wrath (it provoked best-neg-ever candidate "The Wrapes of Grath!"), and wasn't there one on Steinbeck, too? I know this is kosher if GoW wasn't mentioned in the Steinbeck, but I thought I'd bring it up.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:40 am
by jonah
samer wrote:
The Motley Eye wrote:In DII I recall a tossup on "tales" that included "these 'from the Vienna Woods' by Strauss the Younger, and then a later question on Strauss the Younger that included "Tales from the Vienna Woods" as a clue. They were in separate packets, I believe.
While human eyes should ideally have caught it, this was exactly the sort of thing that Ginseng wouldn't pick up on (with all due respect to R., Ginseng is not as smart as Watson :lol:).
However, a feature to handle exactly this kind of problem is in the works and will probably be ready this summer.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:55 pm
by Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill
swwFCqb wrote:The same packet as the above bonus featured a tossup with a lead-in sentence with no pronoun. Unfortunately I can't be any more specific about the packet or answer line without having the set in front of me...sorry.
Similar to this, the last line in the Panama tossup in DII was notably missing the word "a".

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:04 pm
by Edward Elric
cornfused wrote:I know there was a TU on the Grapes of Wrath (it provoked best-neg-ever candidate "The Wrapes of Grath!"), and wasn't there one on Steinbeck, too? I know this is kosher if GoW wasn't mentioned in the Steinbeck, but I thought I'd bring it up.
Heh I don't think we'll ever let Ulysses live that down. I feel like that is fine since the Steinbeck tossup brought to light some other works of his. Especially since they weren't in the same packet.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:55 pm
by Papa's in the House
MickeyR0urke wrote:I really thought that the play lit that came up in the DII set was pretty good. However, was it just me, or did it seem like all of the myth that came up was Greco-Roman? I noticed maybe 3 other myth tossups that weren't this.
I played the D1 set (so if you played D2, this may not apply), but there were definitely non-Greco-Roman myth questions. I can remember a Norse myth TU and bonus, the TU on Aztecs, and the Hindu myth bonus off the top of my head (I'd have to check my notes for others).

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:44 pm
by 1992 in spaceflight
Papa's in the House wrote:
MickeyR0urke wrote:I really thought that the play lit that came up in the DII set was pretty good. However, was it just me, or did it seem like all of the myth that came up was Greco-Roman? I noticed maybe 3 other myth tossups that weren't this.
I played the D1 set (so if you played D2, this may not apply), but there were definitely non-Greco-Roman myth questions. I can remember a Norse myth TU and bonus, the TU on Aztecs, and the Hindu myth bonus off the top of my head (I'd have to check my notes for others).
Yeah, there were a few on other things, but it seemed like there was a ton of Greco-Roman myth (that impression may just be a side-effect of only 1/1 myth per round). And it was the D2 set I was playing.

Re: Repeat/feng shui issues here

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:42 am
by Rufous-capped Thornbill
MickeyR0urke wrote:
Papa's in the House wrote:
MickeyR0urke wrote:I really thought that the play lit that came up in the DII set was pretty good. However, was it just me, or did it seem like all of the myth that came up was Greco-Roman? I noticed maybe 3 other myth tossups that weren't this.
I played the D1 set (so if you played D2, this may not apply), but there were definitely non-Greco-Roman myth questions. I can remember a Norse myth TU and bonus, the TU on Aztecs, and the Hindu myth bonus off the top of my head (I'd have to check my notes for others).
Yeah, there were a few on other things, but it seemed like there was a ton of Greco-Roman myth (that impression may just be a side-effect of only 1/1 myth per round). And it was the D2 set I was playing.
I'm worthless at Greco-Roman myth, but this is how it should be. There were tossups on Indian, Zoroastrian, Mesopotamian and Norse myth (perhaps more that I am forgetting) and the rest were Greco-Roman, which is perfectly fine, as they are much more Important in the study of Western Civilization (not to mention have many more sources of fresh clues).