CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Steeve Ho You Fat » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:56 pm

Apparently I'm going to CO after all, and I very much want to play this. If anyone's still looking for a teammate, let me know.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by eliza.grames » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:10 am

I can staff this, assuming my transportation situation allows it and no one expects me to correctly pronounce things that sound Spanish.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by DumbJaques » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:41 am

eliza.grames wrote:I can staff this, assuming my transportation situation allows it and no one expects me to correctly pronounce things that sound Spanish.
I will support this cause by making the intense personal sacrifice of replacing my packet's required Spanish history questions with more tossups on the Middle East and Asia. I expect everyone else to do the same.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Steeve Ho You Fat » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:28 am

I've joined Mik Larsen's team.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:56 pm

I'd like to remind you of the various deadlines, the first of which is in just over a week. It's not so much that I care whether or not you have to pay $5 or $10 to buy some food for other people attending this tournament –- it's that, for personal reasons, I would like to spend absolutely as little time as possible working on assembling your packets into a coherent tournament after July 18.

Additionally, you should bear in mind that the first packets submitted are going to get used without alteration because they won't have repeats. The fifteenth packet I get, however, had better involve some unique and creative ideas.

Please don't all write about Bulgaria like last year.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kilroy Was Here » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:17 pm

Due to the fact that I will be out of the country, I have to withdraw from this. I can still send in my 3/4 completed packet for things like tiebreakers.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Mewto55555 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:56 pm

Is anyone still looking for a teammate for this?

EDIT: Teamed up with Doug Graebner.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:54 pm

I'm playing this with my fellow Canadian - Jay Misuk.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Cheynem » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 pm

There are quite a few teams. I will gently suggest that unless you have a packet in your hand right now and written, that perhaps you think twice about signing up now.

However, I will also say that we will very strongly hold to the drop dead deadline, so if you don't write anything or you write something declared unusable by the esteemed Honorable Kyle Haddad-Fonda, we reserve the right to drop you.

Finally, if you are no longer playing this tournament, please let us know.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Cheynem » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:09 am

Drop dead deadline is the end of this Thursday.

Also, Chris Wolfe, are you still playing this?
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Gautam » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:36 pm

How long do we think this tournament will take? Because I imagine that will have a direct impact on when the lit tournament begins.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Mike Bentley » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Are we doing a full 19+ rounds? If so, my rough estimate of the finish time would be around 4 PM.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kilroy Was Here » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:45 pm

I don't think Chris is coming without me, so you can just drop our team.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:11 pm

If there's only one packet that is blind to all the teams, then you're going to have a lot of trouble coming up with a schedule that isn't a full round robin. Aside from that, though, I think part of the reason that people were keen to support the full-round-robin plan is that nobody actually believes that all 19 teams are going to submit packets.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Sam » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:22 pm

Could confirmation be given by teams that have not yet submitted a packet that they will actually do so? It would be nice to know what time this ends (and thus when the Lit tournament begins ) with more than two days notice.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by mhayes » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:58 pm

Team Byrne will submit it's packet today.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Cheynem » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:07 pm

My team's packet is half finished.

I hopefully won't be burned by this, but due to the large number of preliminary teams in the field, we are VERY STRONGLY enforcing the drop dead deadline. If the deadline passes and there are like 11 or 13 teams, then we'll run with that. You have been varned.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Mike Bentley » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:33 pm

Kyle wrote:If there's only one packet that is blind to all the teams, then you're going to have a lot of trouble coming up with a schedule that isn't a full round robin. Aside from that, though, I think part of the reason that people were keen to support the full-round-robin plan is that nobody actually believes that all 19 teams are going to submit packets.
I don't see why we can't have brackets. For instance, if we have 19 teams, we could divide the field into 10/9 or 6/6/7 brackets (in the latter case, maybe a few cross-bracket exhibition games during the byes). We could then re-bracket for playoffs. Assuming we don't have a ridiculous amount of playoffs, we could just use playoff packets for teams that aren't in the top bracket. This would allow us to do a more reasonable number of rounds like 12-14 without kicking people out of the tournament or starting the literature tournament super late (although rebracketing will add some delay).
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by JamesIV » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:45 am

I haven't heard from my partner in a long time, and unless that changes soon, it looks like I'm a free agent. If anybody is in need of a partner, let me know - I'm happy to staff, but I would like to play, if possible.

Ignore this.
Last edited by JamesIV on Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by MLafer » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:08 am

I plan on writing our packet this week. Unfortunately, it will be very close to drop-dead time because I'm writing it without Ryan and I was out of town all of last week.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by vcuEvan » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:17 am

Will has written his questions. I'll do mine by tomorrow.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by DumbJaques » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:14 pm

Our packet will be in by the deadline.

On the schedule issue, I cast an exceptionally strong vote that we go for the full round robin. It's a 20-tossup side event, and the rounds go very, very quickly. It's also going to act as Sunday's main event, more or less (as it will be significantly longer than WELD), so really 19 rounds of tossup-only isn't even a full trash tournament's worth of material/time. Last but not least, part of the whole appeal of this event is that you get to sample packets by all these different teams - while there's a quality/consistency trade off, this is a unique opportunity and I'd be incredibly disappointed if we weren't able to take full advantage of it.

You also do save a not-insignificant amount of time by not having to worry about bracketing and record-tracking and tiebreakers and all that, so if you're looking at 14 rounds vs. 19 rounds it amounts to am actual time difference of maybe 4 packets.

Also, double byes suck the big one; having different rooms playing on different questions in the same round does so only marginally less.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by theMoMA » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:29 pm

Jonathan and I will submit a packet by Thursday. Sorry for the delay; I'm looking forward to the tournament!
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:34 pm

My apologies if I missed this somewhere in this thread (I looked), but what time are you thinking about starting? I'd like to have at least a rough concept (ie, noonish or 5ish?) of when I'll need to show up Sunday, so I can make plans about stuff to do (if time permits) before WELD. I'd figure on 15-20 minutes for a TU-only round, so if y'all go the whole 19, I'm imagining a supper-hour start. Thanks.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Ringil » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:59 pm

If we do the 19 team round robin (or however many submit packets as long as it's more packets than the 12 WELD packets), it seems like it might be a better idea have WELD be played in the morning and History Doubles in the afternoon/night. It seems possible to finish playing WELD before lunch, which would be more efficient than having to take an extended break for lunch during History Doubles and having a break/time to gather people for WELD in the afternoon.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by magin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:30 pm

Ringil wrote:If we do the 19 team round robin (or however many submit packets as long as it's more packets than the 12 WELD packets), it seems like it might be a better idea have WELD be played in the morning and History Doubles in the afternoon/night. It seems possible to finish playing WELD before lunch, which would be more efficient than having to take an extended break for lunch during History Doubles and having a break/time to gather people for WELD in the afternoon.
As someone entirely biased in favor of playing the literature tournament, this would be great.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:08 pm

Super-mega-dittoes!

EDIT: If this idea actually gains traction, I'll throw in a bribe of a cooler full of soda and water for the WELD and history players.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Mike Bentley » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:15 pm

I have a Monday flight and am playing both tournaments so I don't care either way, but if I was someone only interested in the history tournament who booked a Sunday night flight after seeing the initial schedule, I'd be a bit pissed if WELD was moved before it. Maybe there aren't any such people out there, but with 19 teams signed up I'd be surprised if this proposed switch didn't upset a few people.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:25 pm

Fair enough--absolutely good point. But it's just a proposal. When someone shoots it down, it's dead, I reckon.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by MLafer » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:32 pm

I don't have a flight, but for various other reasons switching the tournament times would be really terrible for me.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Gautam » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:55 pm

magin wrote:
Ringil wrote:If we do the 19 team round robin (or however many submit packets as long as it's more packets than the 12 WELD packets), it seems like it might be a better idea have WELD be played in the morning and History Doubles in the afternoon/night. It seems possible to finish playing WELD before lunch, which would be more efficient than having to take an extended break for lunch during History Doubles and having a break/time to gather people for WELD in the afternoon.
As someone entirely biased in favor of playing the literature tournament, this would be great.
I'd also appreciate this... not because I signed up to play with Jonathan, but because I'd like to head home at a reasonable time in the afternoon and play.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Sam » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:11 pm

Many people have already "paid" for this tournament by writing 12-24 questions. Given that switching times may prevent some of those people from playing, I don't really see it as fair to change things now.
I'll continue my streak of passive aggressive posting by pointing out that not playing this tournament is one way to increase the chances of WELD starting earlier.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by mhayes » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:14 pm

My bus to Cleveland leaves at 11:30 Sunday night, so is it safe to assume that we'll finish both tournaments at around 10:00ish? If so, then I wouldn't be opposed to switching the events. Otherwise, I'd strongly prefer to hold the history tournament first since I'm only staffing for WELD.

ETA: Obviously this arrangement pertains only to me. I agree with Sam that it wouldn't be entirely fair to change things up at the last minute.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:13 am

Sam wrote:Many people have already "paid" for this tournament by writing 12-24 questions. Given that switching times may prevent some of those people from playing, I don't really see it as fair to change things now.

I'll continue my streak of passive aggressive posting by pointing out that not playing this tournament is one way to increase the chances of WELD starting earlier.
I won't be there, so I don't care what time you do things, but I do think it's only fair to move the time if everybody who has submitted a packet already will still be able to play.

Also, since I won't be there, I'll be the one to suggest the obvious but assuredly unpopular solution, which is to start the history tournament very early in the morning.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by DumbJaques » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:13 pm

I plan on playing both events; however, I booked a Sunday flight in anticipation of this tournament taking place in the announced slot (that is, I'm ok if I have to miss a few rounds of WELD, but would be super pissed if I had to miss a few rounds of history doubles). Considering the tournament is happening in a few days, I think it would be ridiculous to totally flip the schedule now, and serve no real purpose beyond making things (possibly?) more convenient for those playing WELD but not History.

I don't really get the argument that putting the events before/after lunch saves time; in fact, I think it drastically raises the chance of delays, because then you're looking at two reset points (before each tournament) where people have to rally, organize, etc. I mean, we know what happens at CO when it's food time in between events. . . people disappear, laptops disappear, White Jacket the Mouse ends up being turned into Dan Passner's latest novelty hot dog. . . it's just not a great plan. Conversely, if History wraps around 4:00, you'll assuredly have all the people playing both events there already (and fed already); you're also very likely to have all the WELD-only people, who probably will have been waiting around 30 minutes for History to finish up. That's slightly inconvenient for them, I guess, but as CO inconveniences go it's not even a 4-hour special motel trip.

To reiterate, though, none of the above really matters, because it's pretty much unacceptable to switch up the time slots at this point in the game when everyone's travel plans are irreversibly set.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Mike Bentley » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:15 pm

Cross-posting from the WELD thread:

As the self-appointed Thomas Huxley to Ryan's Charles Darwin, I am declaring that CO History registration will be from 8:00-8:30 AM on Sunday morning. If you're not there on time, we're starting without you. We will do a round robin and then a final. At 20 minutes a round, I anticipate we'll be done by 4 PM. WELD will begin immediately after this.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by magin » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:48 pm

How many packets currently exist for the history tournament? I have to talk it over with Andrew, but I'd be willing to staff and make our packet a playoff packet to help enable something shorter than a 18 team round robin.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by SnookerUSF » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:45 pm

History is fun to read. I can staff.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:54 am

We're now at 13 submitted packets. I'll continue to accept them until I wake up tomorrow morning, which will be about 3am EDT on July 20. The only team that I will have any sympathy for if it submits a late packet is Ryan and Matt, since Matt has to write it entirely by himself and since Ryan is editing the main event.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:31 am

To Ted's certain delight, we ended up with 18 packets.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Cheynem » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:32 am

We will need to combine teams, use double byes, or use brackets with 18 teams.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by magin » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:52 am

I wasn't able to finish my packet, so I will staff.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:57 am

Cheynem wrote:We will need to combine teams, use double byes, or use brackets with 18 teams.
My suggestion is that you make one team of three consisting of Charles Hang (who submitted the last packet that I received and who has no teammate) and the two people whose packet contains the most repeats. That leaves you with a total field of 17.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Mike Bentley » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:21 pm

One idea (that I'm not necessarily advocating) is to split the teams up into brackets of 9 and play 9 prelim rounds. Then, split teams up again into top 9 / bottom 9 (with I guess the 9th team being decided by the 5th team with the best record and then ppg) and play 9 more rounds. I'd be in favor of games against common opponents carrying over (so that you would play some teams twice, and other teams in your bracket only once) so that the prelims still have some meaning. This would give us 18 rounds plus a possible finals. Each team would play 16 rounds. I think it avoids the problem of having to make sure that certain teams don't make the playoffs to have enough available packets.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by DumbJaques » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:52 pm

Yeah, I'm unequivocally in favor of having Charles hop onto a team to give us 17 and do the full round robin. For one thing, it's already less time than a 19-team round robin, which is good. By combining his stuff with the least-serciveable packet, we also raise the packet quality floor.

Most importantly, though, I'd like to vigorously oppose the above plan of guessing which teams will finish in the lower brackets and which will finish in the upper brackets, etc. to plan playoff packets. Your worst case scenario for this is that it fucks up and the tournament gets boned. That's bad. But you're best case scenario is also bad! Cross-checking that stuff to make it all work and doing the rebracketing will end up taking AT LEAST one round's worth of time (probably 1.5), because of the added planning that has to be done but can't really be set up in advance.

Even if that part weren't an issue, I'd like to suggest to everyone that this plan is literally built around having the most meaningful games in the tournament decided by the packets written by the people predicted to do the worst. Now, playing skill and writing acumen don't always correlate, but given that this is a guerilla tournament and all, I really don't see this ending well. Can we please just go through with the original plan? I'm not unsympathetic to Ted's plight, but someone is going to be unhappy here; speaking as someone who is in fact looking forward to both events, it seems unfair to distribute that collective shafting along anything but the lines dictated as a result of the long-announced schedules.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Pilgrim » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:09 pm

Kyle wrote:
Cheynem wrote:We will need to combine teams, use double byes, or use brackets with 18 teams.
My suggestion is that you make one team of three consisting of Charles Hang (who submitted the last packet that I received and who has no teammate) and the two people whose packet contains the most repeats. That leaves you with a total field of 17.
I support this plan.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:52 pm

DumbJaques wrote:Yeah, I'm unequivocally in favor of having Charles hop onto a team to give us 17 and do the full round robin. For one thing, it's already less time than a 19-team round robin, which is good. By combining his stuff with the least-serciveable packet, we also raise the packet quality floor.

Most importantly, though, I'd like to vigorously oppose the above plan of guessing which teams will finish in the lower brackets and which will finish in the upper brackets, etc. to plan playoff packets. Your worst case scenario for this is that it fucks up and the tournament gets boned. That's bad. But you're best case scenario is also bad! Cross-checking that stuff to make it all work and doing the rebracketing will end up taking AT LEAST one round's worth of time (probably 1.5), because of the added planning that has to be done but can't really be set up in advance.

Even if that part weren't an issue, I'd like to suggest to everyone that this plan is literally built around having the most meaningful games in the tournament decided by the packets written by the people predicted to do the worst. Now, playing skill and writing acumen don't always correlate, but given that this is a guerilla tournament and all, I really don't see this ending well. Can we please just go through with the original plan? I'm not unsympathetic to Ted's plight, but someone is going to be unhappy here; speaking as someone who is in fact looking forward to both events, it seems unfair to distribute that collective shafting along anything but the lines dictated as a result of the long-announced schedules.
I endorse this post in all respects.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:06 am

Some facts about this tournament:
  • The longest tossup submitted to it was a 1,473-character masterpiece out of the Adams-Butler packet.

    The packet with the most repeats with other packets was the Gerten-Weinreich packet; consequently, they will get to play on the team of three with Charles Hang.

    The most repeated answer line was common to four out of the 17 packets.

    The overall difficulty of this tournament varies greatly from round to round, but on the whole it might be described as "high."

    You should remember that most people wrote half of their pair's packet, with the result that in many cases the style differs considerably from question to question. I would alert your attention in particular to the Arthur-Hoppes packet, where Jeff's submissions were a lot longer than Bruce's. Don't be jarred by this kind of variation.

    There are many creative answer choices, including a lot of common link questions that one might consider "experimental." On the whole, I think playing in this tournament should be a very interesting endeavor. Have fun and try not to throw things in frustration.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Kyle » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:50 pm

Mike Cheyne, Bruce Arthur, Ryan Westbrook, and Mike Bentley have been emailed password-protected versions of the 17 prelim rounds for tomorrow.

Dallas Simons, Chris Ray, and Marshall Steinbaum have been emailed the password.

I probably won't be awake when you finish playing today's main event, so you'll have to sort out the logistics for yourselves.
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Re: CO History Doubles: 7/22/2012

Post by Ras superfamily » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:23 am

I'll staff this tomorrow
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