National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

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National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:32 pm

The National History Bowl is pleased to announce its second collegiate National Championship for Sunday, April 14, 2013 (the day after ICT) at Northwestern University. As was the case last year, this will allow teams from around the country to contest an additional national title without having to shell out more money for travel and hotels. However, please note that as was also the case last year, this is being planned solely for sake of convenience and that the tournament is by no means formally affiliated with nor endorsed by NAQT.
For this year, the collegiate division of the National History Bowl will consist solely of the National Championships; i.e. there will be no regional qualifying tournaments as there are in the high school division. Nor will there be a division of the National History Bee at the collegiate level this year either. Last year, at our inaugural college tournament, we had 18 teams - this year we'd love to see 25-30 (or more). We'll be happy to pay extra for more outside experienced staff if we need to in order to accommodate more teams. Since last year's tournament was described as "really fun," "mostly enjoyable," and "awesome" by attendees, we hope more colleges will give it a shot this year. Also, like ACF Nationals, we are going to open this tournament to top-level high school teams, though interested hs teams should contact me first to make sure it's a sensible decision to come. That said, this tournament is otherwise in no way affiliated with standard NHBB high school tournaments (regionals or nationals) and has no bearing on the qualifying for those. This tournament will run on a standard 20/20 format, not NHBB's 4 quarter high school style.
For 2013, the tournament will be open to anyone with student status at any degree-granting post-secondary educational institution around the world - there is no open division. There will be separate undergraduate and graduate titles awarded. The question writing will be overseen by Matt Weiner in a capacity unaffiliated with any question writing organization or company. Other writers may also be involved; I'll leave it to Matt to elaborate more on all matters related to question writing.
The cost is $310 for a team of 3 or 4, $225 for a team of 2, and $130 if you would like to play it solo. There's a $10 buzzer system discount, limit 2 per team. $35 discount for moderators on a first come, first served basis. If you register for a team of 3 or 4 but only show up with 1 or 2, you do not get the discount. Nor should you register for a team of 1 or 2 if you think you will have more than that. Please pay by check or cash the day of the tournament; please don't send payment in advance, and if you don't have payment at the tournament, there's a $50 annoyance fee. It is likely that interested schools can still sign up at ICT, if space is still available, but don't count on that. Teams should register by emailing or sending me a private message - they can do this starting now.
Finally, regarding logistics, Dan Donohue at Northwestern has told me that he is reserving rooms for this but will not get final confirmation until a few weeks beforehand. Apparently this is SOP at Northwestern (this is how it worked last year), so I presume it will be fine again this year. I am planning on renting a van again to shuttle people to and from the hotel. Last year we had extra space in the van; this year - if more space is needed - we could rent two vans. There is an extra charge to cover the van shuttle for those who wish to avail themselves of it - the charge will be a function of how many people want a ride. Also, expect this tournament to go an additional round or two this year, since the general consensus was that people wanted a few more rounds, rather than it ending on the earlier side so people could catch Sunday evening flights. If you are of a different opinion and considering playing or not on the basis of this, post here so we can find out what works best for everyone. Overall, this ran quite smoothly last year, but we're open to logistical suggestions as well of course.

Field Update - as of 4/8
Alabama
Arizona State
Berkeley
Case Western
Chicago A
Chicago B
Harvard
Illinois
UIC
Michigan
Minnesota
Northwestern
Penn
UVA
VCU
WUSTL
Last edited by Great Bustard on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:48 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cheynem » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:53 pm

Why does it cost so much more to play with a full team? Is this standard at national tournaments (maybe it is, I don't know)?

Also, just to clarify, you do not have to qualify for ICT or play ICT to play this, right? It has nothing to do with ICT besides being on the same weekend?
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:31 pm

Cheynem wrote:Why does it cost so much more to play with a full team? Is this standard at national tournaments (maybe it is, I don't know)?

Also, just to clarify, you do not have to qualify for ICT or play ICT to play this, right? It has nothing to do with ICT besides being on the same weekend?
Right, this has nothing to do with ICT except that we're having it on the same weekend in the same metro area for convenience sake for everyone who wishes to compete. As for the price, this was how we did it last year (and how I've handled teams of 1 or 2 for NHBB at the high school level). It's not that we're trying to soak those who play with a full team, but rather make it possible for 1 or 2 people (say, the history specialist(s)) to compete without it being prohibitive. To cover the cost of writing a tournament that will highly unlikely be mirrored elsewhere, we need to charge more than a normal tournament would, but by offering discounts for 1 or 2 person teams, we hope that someone contemplating the tournament on such a team (and we had a number of people that took advantage of this last year) will see that it's still feasible to compete. Personally, if this had been around when I was in college, I would have paid $100-$150 to do it for a day, but not $300, just for my own $.02 for what that's worth.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:15 pm

I've had a couple people ask me about this late, as in, if we're still having it. The answer is certainly yes, so email or PM me to sign up or express interest. Matt Weiner can answer questions on the set if people have them; other questions should come to me.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:17 am

Dartmouth is definitely interested in this.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:10 pm

Can we get some idea on when this tournament is expected to end? We're booking our ICT flights pretty soon and would like to know if we'll be able to fly home Sunday night like we did last year.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:24 pm

I can target an ending time of 6 PM.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Mexdude » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:15 pm

Will the question distribution be the same as last year where there was a small section dedicated to subjects other than pure history (lit, trash, art, etc)? Just wanted to know so I can persuade some of my non-history teammates to join me for this tournament.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Matt Weiner » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:20 pm

Yes.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by gyre and gimble » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:50 am

Harvard wants to play this, and we can bring 2 buzzers.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by gyre and gimble » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:52 pm

I feel like NHB should start actively getting people to play this? I mean, most teams must already have their ICT travel plans scheduled, but a 6-9 team field would be disappointing and probably a waste of the writers' efforts.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:57 pm

We're interested, I'll get on the paperwork or whatever.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:08 am

In the interest of keeping the field up to date: Yale will not be attending the 2013 College National History Bowl. Sorry, everyone.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:50 am

gyre and gimble wrote:I feel like NHB should start actively getting people to play this? I mean, most teams must already have their ICT travel plans scheduled, but a 6-9 team field would be disappointing and probably a waste of the writers' efforts.
Will do early this coming week, though this has been posted for months. I'll be reaching out to all who came last year, and all who are signed up for ICT.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cheynem » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:00 am

Minnesota is confirming travel plans, but should have one team to play this.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:01 am

We don't plan on going to this anymore. Hopefully we'll be able to play next year. (Alternatively, we could try and play this over Skype, if anyone else is interested in doing that - I'd love to, for one).
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:24 am

If $ is an issue for this (or even if it isn't), I'm happy to give $100 off entry into College History Bowl for every qualified reader a college team would be able to provide for NHBB High School Nationals on 4/26-28. I'll round up, so if you have 3 staffers who could come and read (they would need to be readers who can read clear English with some knowledge of historical terms at a good pace) then your team could play the tournament for free. The readers don't have to be the same people who would play the tournament, just be attending the same school. Or actually, even a different school as long as they weren't already on our updated staff list (see NHBB Nationals thread). The staffers who you would send to NHBB High School Nationals in exchange for free/discounted entry would get free hotel, $25 for food, and be expected to arrive by 6pm Friday and leave after 1pm Sunday. Travel would be reimbursed up to $250; possibly higher, though talk to me first. Just to clarify, this offer applies equally to teams already signed up for NHB College Nationals as to teams who are not yet signed up/mulling it over.
I know NHBB Nationals conflicts with ACF Nationals, but I know that the number of players and staffers there is still far less than half of all reasonably active players in the college circuit, so hopefully we can help build our college turnout and find some additional qualified readers for high school at the same time by offering this. If you/your team is interested, email/message me.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cody » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:33 am

What would you do if a team reneged on its agreement to bring staffers to NHBB Nationals?
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:44 am

SirT wrote:What would you do if a team reneged on its agreement to bring staffers to NHBB Nationals?
Hold them accountable to pay the original fee, of course, plus a $100 penalty per reneged staffer, as staff backing out the week/day/hour before a tournament wreaks havoc on everything, of course. That said, teams have until up to the day of the College tournament (4/14) to determine whether to take the offer or not. That's over 2 weeks from now and it's then less than 2 weeks in advance of our high school Nationals, so people's plans should be clear enough by 4/14.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:12 am

I have just sent a letter to all participants in this event explaining that it has been postponed and why. I would prefer not to go into all the details with people who are not directly affected, but I will note that the root cause is solely my own culpability and should not reflect back on Dave Madden, NHBB, HSAPQ, PACE, ACF, or any other person or group besides myself in my role as collegiate question producer. I know people will have a lot of piling on to do and I have no reason to ask them to hold off, but I will reiterate a simple request I have already made, which is to please consider the actual situation (the wisdom of me writing entire collegiate tournaments while other projects demanded my attention in rapid succession) and, if you would be so thoughtful, not cast aspersions on my role as a tournament director which may harm innocent people or attending teams involved in PACE or ACF tournaments, despite having no connection to this situation. Also, please contact me by e-mail if you require a quick response about this or any other matter. Thank you.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cheynem » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:40 am

I've read Matt's letter--it's very sincere and heartfelt. This is very disappointing to me, as I had to choose between attending the two national tournaments this year and chose the one I was least excited over in order to play history bowl, but his letter helps me to see his perspective.

The one thing I'd like to address is to really, really clarify that this has nothing to do with Dave Madden and NHBB, who are getting their fare share of shit, some of it deserved, for other things. Dave was never in charge of or had anything to do with writing questions for this, and this should NOT be dismissed as "Uh-oh, another Madden disaster," as it mostly clearly is not. Sorry if I am putting words in Matt or Dave's mouth here, but I thought in particular, this needed to be clarified.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Ringil » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:02 pm

Given that a lot of people will be stuck in Chicago on Sunday because of this and there seems to be some interest in people submitting some packets (we'd for sure be willing to submit one), can't we do this tournament semi-packet sub? Obviously it wouldn't be quite as polished etc as would be optimal, but surely editing a bunch of packets is much easier than writing those packets (assuming teams make good-faith efforts to submit good questions that require minimal editing) and could be more reasonably done in the time remaining.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by gyre and gimble » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:33 pm

Ringil wrote:Given that a lot of people will be stuck in Chicago on Sunday because of this and there seems to be some interest in people submitting some packets (we'd for sure be willing to submit one), can't we do this tournament semi-packet sub? Obviously it wouldn't be quite as polished etc as would be optimal, but surely editing a bunch of packets is much easier than writing those packets (assuming teams make good-faith efforts to submit good questions that require minimal editing) and could be more reasonably done in the time remaining.
I think that's one way out of this. This is an email I sent Matt this morning:
What percent of the set is completed? It's not a huge stretch of time, but there are four full days between now and the scheduled date of the tournament, and the desperateness of the situation might help get a lot of different collaborators to pitch in and save this tournament.

And since people have already made travel arrangements, I don't think telling them, "Hey, we have a ton of people working on this now and there's a small chance we can get it done," is too much of a problem (I guess some teams closer to Chicago might just go home early or something but Harvard, for one, will probably just stick around all of Sunday because we've booked flights leaving Sunday night).

My guess is that if you can get a decent number of retired players who know history together, plus your organizational skills, you can still salvage this. Like, last year's set had 15 rounds. Say you need 21/20 per round, and supposing you've got 100/100 done by now, that leaves 215/200 left to write. Split over four days and five people, that's roughly 10/10 a day--more than manageable. If you rule out Saturday for ICT then 13/13, still manageable.

I hope this is the case, and I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't, but it's my personal opinion that you should contact as many reliable writers as you can ASAP and see what you can do. (Mike? Jerry? Bruce, who might be able to spare 4 days from ACF editing? Kyle Haddad-Fonda? Matt Jackson/Yale? Auroni? You can probably think of more people than I can.)
I guess it would be a lot to ask of people to pitch in last-minute, but I sincerely doubt that a legitimate tournament can be put together on a later date so whatever can be done should be done to get this to happen.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by grapesmoker » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:00 pm

It would be pretty much impossible for me to do anything on this short a notice.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cheynem » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:01 pm

I sympathize with everyone here wanting something to happen; I certainly do, but the idea of salvaging the actual event seems impossible. At best I think we could get like a guerrilla history event, which I guess I would be willing to play but doesn't seem like the best usage of everyone's time and efforts.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by gyre and gimble » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:31 pm

So some of us (a lot of us?) are paying for an extra night at the Hyatt and I for one would rather play at a lower price a low-med quality tournament, like Pennbowl 2012 which was finished during the tournament if I understand correctly (and I kinda liked that tournament). Again, I think it's likelier for the set to be completed than for some legitimate postponed tournament to be scheduled in the future.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cheynem » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:36 pm

If every team wrote just one packet, that'd be 16 packets.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:43 pm

gyre and gimble wrote:So some of us (a lot of us?) are paying for an extra night at the Hyatt and I for one would rather play at a lower price a low-med quality tournament, like Pennbowl 2012 which was finished during the tournament if I understand correctly (and I kinda liked that tournament). Again, I think it's likelier for the set to be completed than for some legitimate postponed tournament to be scheduled in the future.
Weiner's not going to burn his already written packets on something like this, so the only way this would work is if were an entirely guerrilla event. I'll throw in one packet if other people do.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:46 pm

I'd definitely be willing to pitch in a few questions.
Last edited by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:47 pm

The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus wrote:
gyre and gimble wrote:So some of us (a lot of us?) are paying for an extra night at the Hyatt and I for one would rather play at a lower price a low-med quality tournament, like Pennbowl 2012 which was finished during the tournament if I understand correctly (and I kinda liked that tournament). Again, I think it's likelier for the set to be completed than for some legitimate postponed tournament to be scheduled in the future.
Weiner's not going to burn his already written packets on something like this, so the only way this would work is if were an entirely guerrilla event. I'll throw in one packet if other people do.
As will I because I love all of you, but it's not my favored outcome. It really doesn't do justice to the idea of a collegiate history nationals, which is something that I would very much like to see happen somehow.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by gyre and gimble » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:56 pm

What if each team wrote a half-packet, adding 8 packets, and Matt edited them? He said he was writing 30-60 questions at a time over the last 2 weeks. If that's like 5 packets' worth then he just needs to write 2 more himself, then edit 8. That's still a lot but if he gets some help from other editors it seems doable.

My team's really busy but we can probably get a half-packet together. A full packet seems unlikely.

Also most of the teams have experienced writers. Some internal editing within teams could really lighten the load. For example, I'd edit my team's questions before sending them in.
The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus wrote:
gyre and gimble wrote:So some of us (a lot of us?) are paying for an extra night at the Hyatt and I for one would rather play at a lower price a low-med quality tournament, like Pennbowl 2012 which was finished during the tournament if I understand correctly (and I kinda liked that tournament). Again, I think it's likelier for the set to be completed than for some legitimate postponed tournament to be scheduled in the future.
Weiner's not going to burn his already written packets on something like this, so the only way this would work is if were an entirely guerrilla event. I'll throw in one packet if other people do.
So my concern is that those packets are gonna be burned because no actual College Nationals is gonna happen on a date that's not April 14. How are you going to get people to devote another weekend to this? Flights can cost upwards of $300 per person so letting people play for free wouldn't help, and there's no time after ACF Nationals, the only other time a lot of teams will be in the same place.
Last edited by gyre and gimble on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cheynem » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:05 pm

It is unrealistic (and according to Matt, out of the question) to expect Matt himself to do anything for this for Sunday.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Mike Bentley » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:18 pm

I can help out in some writing or editing capacity, although my total available hours for this will probably be like 12, so I doubt I can do too much. I think I can definitely get a half-packet done and can try for a full packet. I doubt I'd be able to edit the questions in any decent capacity, since most packets probably wouldn't be done until like Saturday night anyway.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:09 pm

Hey, I've been talking to some people affected by this and would like to provide a brief update:

As announced in the letter, I plan to complete this tournament and run it in a fashion that allows all teams in contention for the title to play it off. It is becoming clear that the most logical way to do this, given the infeasibility of asking teams to travel to a common site and the dispersal of players post-semester, is a Skype event held "as soon as possible." I will announce a specific date once things are actually complete. Teams registered for Sunday will be able to participate for free, and new teams may enter for some nominal amount.

I have begun the process of forming a sensibly-sized team of writers for the 2014 tournament so it can get done and certified as such before people need to start making travel plans.

In light of the above, I will not be contributing to any guerilla events held this weekend, as I think a full, edited tournament is what is necessary and that is why this announcement was made to begin with. If people want to make lemonade out of the situation and organize some event on their own, I will come read or do whatever else I can for it short of collapsing existing questions in or otherwise working on that side of things.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Cheynem » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:07 pm

I would strongly object to a Skype tournament. While it is your right to do what you wish with the questions, I would advise using them for some other set (VCU Open), making it a side event to something like VCU Open, or just using them as a strong foundation for next year's history bowl, rather than play a Skype tournament (which from my experience are enjoyable but overlong, highly susceptible to technical woes, and rather unsatisfactory in terms of occasional lag/buzzer race issues, not to mention unfeasible for people who are living in areas not close to their teammates for the summer).
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Lightinfa » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:22 pm

Cheynem wrote:I would strongly object to a Skype tournament. While it is your right to do what you wish with the questions, I would advise using them for some other set (VCU Open), making it a side event to something like VCU Open, or just using them as a strong foundation for next year's history bowl, rather than play a Skype tournament (which from my experience are enjoyable but overlong, highly susceptible to technical woes, and rather unsatisfactory in terms of occasional lag/buzzer race issues, not to mention unfeasible for people who are living in areas not close to their teammates for the summer).
I completely agree with this sentiment- if the tournament cannot be held at a physical location sometime over the summer I'd rather delay than try and do something over Skype.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by magin » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:14 pm

I'll agree with Mike and J.R. that trying to hold a national tournament over Skype seems like a terrible idea--what if some of the players lose their internet connection in the finals? What if people look up answers because they're already on the internet and ruin the tournament? Way too many possible things could go wrong.
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Does this mean that we can tell people not to post about quizbowl again? I'm suddenly confused.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:34 pm

magin wrote:I'll agree with Mike and J.R. that trying to hold a national tournament over Skype seems like a terrible idea--what if some of the players lose their internet connection in the finals? What if people look up answers because they're already on the internet and ruin the tournament? Way too many possible things could go wrong.
Matt Weiner wrote:please consider the actual situation (the wisdom of me writing entire collegiate tournaments while other projects demanded my attention in rapid succession) and, if you would be so thoughtful, not cast aspersions on my role as a tournament director which may harm innocent people or attending teams involved in PACE or ACF tournaments, despite having no connection to this situation.
Does this mean that we can tell people not to post about quizbowl again? I'm suddenly confused.
The Rules' Definition of Telling People How to Post wrote:This includes but is not limited to: telling someone that you do not like the “tone” of their post, telling someone that he is being “uncivil” or “impolite,” complaining about being “attacked” by criticism, demanding that people not criticize something that occurred in a state that they do not reside in, demanding that people not criticize something that occurred at a tournament they did not attend, or demanding that people not criticize something for any reason.

Questioning the value of some form of analysis in the abstract is allowed, so long as it is not a veiled attempt to tell other people not to discuss or criticize something more substantial. E.g.: statements such as “I don’t think it is very productive to analyze the placement of one particular power mark” do not, in a vacuum, violate the rules.
If you disagree that Matt's earnest request to leave matters unrelated to this tournament out of it falls into acceptable territory under this rule, the preferred method of bringing that to the attention of board staff is the report button, and you're of course welcome to make use of it. The difference between asking and telling is a significant one, and no, you cannot tell people not to post about quizbowl.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:48 pm

My main reason for gravitating towards the Skype option is to give people such as Charles Tian and David Seal, whom it's been intimated will not be able to participate in any further CHB tournament held far in the future, a chance to compete for the title. If those people think it would be better to just hold off until next year, that option is back on the table, but as they are the most affected I am inclined to defer to their wishes either way.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Mike Bentley » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:03 pm

Mike Bentley wrote:I can help out in some writing or editing capacity, although my total available hours for this will probably be like 12, so I doubt I can do too much. I think I can definitely get a half-packet done and can try for a full packet. I doubt I'd be able to edit the questions in any decent capacity, since most packets probably wouldn't be done until like Saturday night anyway.
On second thought, this doesn't seem realistic. If people are really hankering to play some questions on Sunday, I have a decent number of NSC questions that I could playtest.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Excelsior (smack) » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:57 pm

My main reason for gravitating towards the Skype option is to give people such as Charles Tian and David Seal, whom it's been intimated will not be able to participate in any further CHB tournament held far in the future, a chance to compete for the title. If those people think it would be better to just hold off until next year, that option is back on the table, but as they are the most affected I am inclined to defer to their wishes either way.
I would think a better way to deal with this would be to grandfather in next-year eligibility for those players who were registered for this tournament and who would be rendered ineligible next year because of graduation or whatever. It's obviously not an optimal solution, but it sure as hell is way better than trying to run a national tournament on Skype.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by gyre and gimble » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:23 am

Excelsior (smack) wrote:
My main reason for gravitating towards the Skype option is to give people such as Charles Tian and David Seal, whom it's been intimated will not be able to participate in any further CHB tournament held far in the future, a chance to compete for the title. If those people think it would be better to just hold off until next year, that option is back on the table, but as they are the most affected I am inclined to defer to their wishes either way.
I would think a better way to deal with this would be to grandfather in next-year eligibility for those players who were registered for this tournament and who would be rendered ineligible next year because of graduation or whatever. It's obviously not an optimal solution, but it sure as hell is way better than trying to run a national tournament on Skype.
Then 2014 College Nationals, with 2014 college teams, would effectively never happen.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:28 am

DISCLAIMER: Dave Madden, PACE, HSAPQ, etc. should be immune from all criticism related to this, as previously stated.

Before I fall asleep, let me register my unadulterated disappointment with this situation. Members of our team postponed meetings, work, etc, so we could be at this tournament this year, and we obviously can't move our flights or cancel our extra day in the hotel like we might have otherwise. I'm sure this isn't limited to us. I've been responsible for my fair share of subpar events in my time, but this really takes the cake. A national tournament that people have flown in to play, with only a handful of packets written? I can only imagine the kind of pyroclastic flow that would occur, far-and-wide, if someone else made a mistake of this magnitude (maybe Matt Jackson didn't feel the need to post since Yale pulled out of this tournament), even if they made the same kind of entreaties and apologies that Matt W has made to the QB community.

This isn't even the first time that something like this happened. Titanomachy in 2007 featured a similar timecrunch at the end (complete with almost identical descriptions of vomiting and sleep deprivation), though that tournament was salvaged by a coalition. Then there was CO Trash, FICHTE 2, that one VCU Open that wasn't being written fast enough to catch up with the actual tournament, Henry Darger, etc. Given the sheer number of tournaments that Matt writes, his successes far outnumber his failures, but I and other people thought that the worse of the envelope-pushing was past us. I sincerely hope that this serves as a lesson to everybody to not bite off more than you can chew.

PS. I was asked to do this by my teammates:
Matt Weiner wrote:it's the last several tournaments involving Penn and there doesn't seem to be any kind of change in the setup. (list of things I wasn't responsible for goes here)
Matt Weiner wrote: I will be editing this tournament, with science assistance from Eric Mukherjee and, much like this year's Penn Bowl, no involvement by any other members of the Penn team.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:36 am

I think we seriously need to evaluate the "need" for a national history tournament for college players, considering that both key figures (Matt and David) in making it happen are perhaps the two busiest people in quizbowl with much more important priorities than this event. I love the idea, but let's be real for a moment and perhaps suggest that either less busy people involve themselves with this event or it shouldn't happen it all.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Matt Weiner » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:06 am

gyre and gimble wrote:
Excelsior (smack) wrote:
My main reason for gravitating towards the Skype option is to give people such as Charles Tian and David Seal, whom it's been intimated will not be able to participate in any further CHB tournament held far in the future, a chance to compete for the title. If those people think it would be better to just hold off until next year, that option is back on the table, but as they are the most affected I am inclined to defer to their wishes either way.
I would think a better way to deal with this would be to grandfather in next-year eligibility for those players who were registered for this tournament and who would be rendered ineligible next year because of graduation or whatever. It's obviously not an optimal solution, but it sure as hell is way better than trying to run a national tournament on Skype.
Then 2014 College Nationals, with 2014 college teams, would effectively never happen.
I would be OK with the eligibility exceptions as a one-time solution to a unique situation--the only people who would face a choice of team to play on are people who are in college both years at two different schools, so I don't think it would keep anyone away. Again, the people who would not be able to play at all if we don't do this should get some priority in the decision, so I await their input.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:42 am

Sulawesi Myzomela wrote:I think we seriously need to evaluate the "need" for a national history tournament for college players, considering that both key figures (Matt and David) in making it happen are perhaps the two busiest people in quizbowl with much more important priorities than this event. I love the idea, but let's be real for a moment and perhaps suggest that either less busy people involve themselves with this event or it shouldn't happen it all.
For my part, as has been mentioned, my involvement is really pretty limited to handling the board posts / sign ups, and then handling things like the van arrangements (luckily, that was on my to do list for today, not yesterday), pre-tournament email (likewise, that was a to do today item...), coordinating with Dan (or whomever handles room assignments at Northwestern), and then co-directing the day of the tournament. It worked well last year, and though I can certainly find other good uses for a Sunday two weeks in advance of our high school Nationals, it really isn't too much of a time sink for me.
One other thought: in future years, it might be possible to get some financial support for this tournament from 3rd parties that could help incentivize people to help with the writing and editing. That might make it easier to run this, and provide a further justification for doing this. I have a few irons in the fire that might pan out in this regard - if we get lucky with a sponsorship arrangement, I will coordinate with Matt and subsequently post here (though I am by no means promising anything with this). Also, I would recommend that Matt lean as much as he can on people who are not him to write for this tournament. I know that the pool of good history writers at this level is limited, but I do think that there are more important (and lucrative) projects for Matt to devote more of his own writing time to. Anyway, the number of packets that needs to be generated to make this work is not enormous, and I'm confident that the situation will be remedied for next year. I apologize on behalf of NHBB to the affected teams.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:04 am

I for one think it's tres amusant that somebody who is known for being opposed to side tournaments during the year and big hard open events wanted to write the mother of all subject area side tournaments and attach it to the ICT. Is there any reason this tournament needs to exist at all? As I described it elsewhere, I find it to be a very hedonistic excess for the quizbowl calendar.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by gyre and gimble » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:16 am

Matt Weiner wrote:
gyre and gimble wrote:
Excelsior (smack) wrote:
My main reason for gravitating towards the Skype option is to give people such as Charles Tian and David Seal, whom it's been intimated will not be able to participate in any further CHB tournament held far in the future, a chance to compete for the title. If those people think it would be better to just hold off until next year, that option is back on the table, but as they are the most affected I am inclined to defer to their wishes either way.
I would think a better way to deal with this would be to grandfather in next-year eligibility for those players who were registered for this tournament and who would be rendered ineligible next year because of graduation or whatever. It's obviously not an optimal solution, but it sure as hell is way better than trying to run a national tournament on Skype.
Then 2014 College Nationals, with 2014 college teams, would effectively never happen.
I would be OK with the eligibility exceptions as a one-time solution to a unique situation--the only people who would face a choice of team to play on are people who are in college both years at two different schools, so I don't think it would keep anyone away. Again, the people who would not be able to play at all if we don't do this should get some priority in the decision, so I await their input.
The following isn't relevant if the Skype thing happens, but:

The point I'm trying to make is that this muddles up two years worth of the tournament. 2013 has been already screwed up because there is no tournament. Postponing the tournament to next year doesn't make up for that because the tournament wouldn't be testing how good teams are at history in 2013, it would be testing how good they are in 2014. Moving on to 2014: An analogy would be if Boise State's bowl game in 2011 got canceled so Kellen Moore gets to come back in 2012 to play their bowl game. I know this is a sports analogy but it would make the same amount of sense (zero) for us to do this with history nationals. Another issue would be if there's a freshman next year who is pretty good at history and would be the fourth best history player on their team, but somebody who graduated the year before, and has either moved on to the real world or is at some school whose history team sucks, now gets to boot that freshman off the team so they can get their fill of History Bowl 2013.

In short I'm strongly against messing with next year's nationals to make up for this one.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Mike Bentley » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:23 am

Mike Bentley wrote:
Mike Bentley wrote:I can help out in some writing or editing capacity, although my total available hours for this will probably be like 12, so I doubt I can do too much. I think I can definitely get a half-packet done and can try for a full packet. I doubt I'd be able to edit the questions in any decent capacity, since most packets probably wouldn't be done until like Saturday night anyway.
On second thought, this doesn't seem realistic. If people are really hankering to play some questions on Sunday, I have a decent number of NSC questions that I could playtest.
On further reflection, I won't be doing this either in light of the recent issues with question security, etc.
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Re: National History Bowl - 2013 College Nationals: Sun. Apr. 14

Post by Great Bustard » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:57 pm

This might not work for all sorts of reasons, but what about the monday after HSNCT (i.e. memorial day). I would think many of the players of this tournament might be in Atlanta helping out with HSNCT - for others, it would at least be an open day in the calendar. Just throwing that out there, since I see major league issues with both the Skype (question security? lag issues?) and 2014 retroactive (Stephen's point re eligibility) ways of resolving this. Even Sunday evening could work, say from 6pm-1am (would such a time frame really be more out of synch with most college students' schedules?) if people want to keep memorial day free. Thoughts?
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