ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Old college threads.
User avatar
Auks Ran Ova
Forums Staff: Chief Administrator
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:28 pm
Location: Minneapolis
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (Summer 2013)

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Ukonvasara wrote:As this is a quizbowl tournament, I will play it; however, in lieu of a packet, I will be mailing Marshall a used copy of Dynasty Warriors 3 for Playstation 2.
Actually, I think I'll withdraw from the field--I will still be happy to staff this tournament, however, and may even still follow through on the Dynasty Warriors thing.
Rob Carson
University of Minnesota '11, MCTC '??
Member, ACF
Member, PACE
Writer and Editor, NAQT

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:09 pm

As of June 12, there are 15 teams registered plus five currently-free agents. Given that, this tournament should probably be two brackets of ten teams each, which means that it would be great if 1. (at least) five more people signed up, and 2. currently-free agents arranged themselves into teams. If and when we get above 40 total players, some teams might be able to take on a third member, but please not until then.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6621
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cheynem » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:17 pm

Do you have a packet submission list?
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:17 pm

Yes
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6621
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cheynem » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:41 pm

Can you post it somewhere or am I just missing it?
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:42 pm

I am purposefully not posting it for the moment, but if there's something you really want to know, please get in touch. It will be up shortly.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Guile Island
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 789
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:45 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Guile Island » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:55 pm

I'm interested in playing this. I'm alright at US History but overall would probably be riding somebody's coattails.
Dylan Minarik
PACE (Former Director of Communications, 2018-19 season)

Northwestern '17
Belvidere North High School '13

JRPG Champion, BACK TO BACK Robot Slayer

User avatar
Masked Canadian History Bandit
Rikku
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:43 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:12 pm

If my regular CO team gets a pack in, I'll play this with Jay Misuk.
Patrick Liao
Lisgar Collegiate Institute 2011, University of Pennsylvania 2015, University of Toronto Faculty of Law 2019
President, Ontario Quizbowl Association (ONQBA)
Support the ONQBA on Facebook!

Strongside
Rikku
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Strongside » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:10 pm

I am a free agent for this tournament.
Brendan Byrne

Drake University, 2006-2008
University of Minnesota, 2008-2010

The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man
Lulu
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:34 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:33 pm

I'll be playing this with Charles Hang.
Alex Gerten
Wisconsin '12
Columbia '16

User avatar
SnookerUSF
Rikku
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:55 am
Location: USF-Tampa, FL
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by SnookerUSF » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:40 am

I would be happy to read for this as long as it isn't on Monday Morning.
Ahmad Ragab, itinerant moderator at the New School for Social Research

ACF Nationals 2011:"Too real for the streets"
-Auroni Gupta

"Can 40,000 redacted topic Tossups be wrong?"

"With my gnomes I'm highlighting the danger of political opportunism and right-wing ideology. I get the feeling that this gnome has reopened an old wound."
-Ottomar Hoerl

User avatar
Smuttynose Island
Forums Staff: Moderator
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Smuttynose Island » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:58 am

I'd like to play this.
Last edited by Smuttynose Island on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Daniel Hothem
TJHSST '11 | UVA '15 | Oregon '??
"You are the stuff of legends" - Chris Manners
https://sites.google.com/site/academicc ... ubuva/home

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:03 am

Thanks Ahmad. I've added a staff list to the second post with those who have already told me they'd be around to staff. We'll need many more, so if you're able, I'd be much obliged.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Auks Ran Ova
Forums Staff: Chief Administrator
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:28 pm
Location: Minneapolis
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:42 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:Thanks Ahmad. I've added a staff list to the second post with those who have already told me they'd be around to staff. We'll need many more, so if you're able, I'd be much obliged.
Ukonvasara wrote:I will still be happy to staff this tournament, however, and may even still follow through on the Dynasty Warriors thing.
Rob Carson
University of Minnesota '11, MCTC '??
Member, ACF
Member, PACE
Writer and Editor, NAQT

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:43 pm

Right, Thanks Rob.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:57 am

I am dumb and suggested in my June 12th post that we'd have a ten team round-robin in each of two brackets, which of course doesn't make sense since ten is an even number. I propose an eleven-team round robin instead. That means there's still room for more teams/players. I don't think it will be a problem to produce an extra packet so long as all of the people who have promised late submissions actually do complete them. The other issue is timing; this only underlines the need to start this tournament on time.

Since the tournament is bracketed, there will certainly be a final between the winner of each bracket, regardless of record. Due to popular insistence, I will break a tie to get into the final with PPB (since the field is not the same for all the teams).
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:56 pm

Hey, do you have a time for this thing? This will affect my participation.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:40 pm

If this starts after the Trash tournament, 2.00 pm. If before, 8.00 am. I am currently trying to find out who is running the trash tournament and if it's actually happening.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Mike Bentley
Auron
Posts: 5831
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Mike Bentley » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:39 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:If this starts after the Trash tournament, 2.00 pm. If before, 8.00 am. I am currently trying to find out who is running the trash tournament and if it's actually happening.
I continue to assert that there's no way the trash tournament is going to finish by 2:00 PM. Even 3:00 PM is going to be optimistic.
Mike Bentley
VP of Editing, Partnership for Academic Competition Excellence
Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:31 pm

If the trash tournament cannot conform itself to a plan that gives it half the available time on Sunday, then there is simply no way the tournaments can be run consecutively. As I've said many times, I've designed this tournament to accommodate that schedule. I can investigate the availability of other rooms, but if it comes to it I'll remind you that I'm the one who has rooms reserved for Sunday quiz bowl.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6621
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:37 pm

If this is going to be some weird sticking point, then let's just have this tournament go first and you can conform your running of it to accomodate the trash tournament.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
vcuEvan
Auron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:49 pm
Location: Richmond VA

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by vcuEvan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:02 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:If the trash tournament cannot conform itself to a plan that gives it half the available time on Sunday, then there is simply no way the tournaments can be run consecutively. As I've said many times, I've designed this tournament to accommodate that schedule. I can investigate the availability of other rooms, but if it comes to it I'll remind you that I'm the one who has rooms reserved for Sunday quiz bowl.
Are you threatening to use your power over the room reservations to hijack all of Chicago Open so that you can subvert years of tradition and the reasonable expectations of all the teams coming? Because that's what it sounds like.
Evan Adams
VCU '11, UVA '14, NYU '15

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:10 pm

vcuEvan wrote:
Tees-Exe Line wrote:If the trash tournament cannot conform itself to a plan that gives it half the available time on Sunday, then there is simply no way the tournaments can be run consecutively. As I've said many times, I've designed this tournament to accommodate that schedule. I can investigate the availability of other rooms, but if it comes to it I'll remind you that I'm the one who has rooms reserved for Sunday quiz bowl.
Are you threatening to use your power over the room reservations to hijack all of Chicago Open so that you can subvert years of tradition and the reasonable expectations of all the teams coming? Because that's what it sounds like.
I'm not sure what "years of tradition" I'm subverting (last year the history tournament went first and there was no trash tournament) or how this pertains to "all of Chicago Open," but yes, that is what I'm doing since it seems that's what's necessary to get the trash tournament's attention after I've repeatedly offered compromises about the structure of this one only to hear the same assertions about how it's impossible to get the trash tournament done on time, as though that we're some ordained fact about the universe. If Mike Cheyne is empowered to represent the trash tournament, then yes I wholeheartedly accept the offer for this to go first and I remain willing to staff trash.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6621
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:18 pm

I have nothing to do with the trash tournament aside from playing it, so I cannot "promise" anything. I was suggesting it to resolve this ridiculous bugaboo.

I really have no idea what you want from the trash tournament as a "compromise." It's only 10 rounds as is and it was announced first anyway.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:22 pm

Cheynem wrote:I really have no idea what you want from the trash tournament as a "compromise."
A tournament structure with a limited number of rounds and round lengths consistent with finishing by 2.00 PM! (ie, exactly what's been done to make this tournament take half a day).
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6621
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:23 pm

There are only 10 rounds.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:27 pm

Cheynem wrote:There are only 10 rounds.
Is the tournament director of the trash tournament (whoever that may be) able to promise it will end by 2.00? (And, presumably, that it will start promptly at 8.00 or earlier?)
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
vcuEvan
Auron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:49 pm
Location: Richmond VA

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by vcuEvan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:
vcuEvan wrote:
Tees-Exe Line wrote:If the trash tournament cannot conform itself to a plan that gives it half the available time on Sunday, then there is simply no way the tournaments can be run consecutively. As I've said many times, I've designed this tournament to accommodate that schedule. I can investigate the availability of other rooms, but if it comes to it I'll remind you that I'm the one who has rooms reserved for Sunday quiz bowl.
Are you threatening to use your power over the room reservations to hijack all of Chicago Open so that you can subvert years of tradition and the reasonable expectations of all the teams coming? Because that's what it sounds like.
I'm not sure what "years of tradition" I'm subverting (last year the history tournament went first and there was no trash tournament) or how this pertains to "all of Chicago Open," but yes, that is what I'm doing since it seems that's what's necessary to get the trash tournament's attention after I've repeatedly offered compromises about the structure of this one only to hear the same assertions about how it's impossible to get the trash tournament done on time, as though that we're some ordained fact about the universe. If Mike Cheyne is empowered to represent the trash tournament, then yes I wholeheartedly accept the offer for this to go first and I remain willing to staff trash.
Since I started college, whenever there has been a trash tournament, CO and CO Trash have been the anchor events and the side events have worked around them. The teams, most of which have already made travel arrangements, had no reason to suspect the arrangement would be any different this year. Declaring by fiat that you're unilaterally postponing CO Trash is unfair to these teams. It's also against the spirit of CO Weekend as a community event. It's called Chicago Open merely because of the location. The Chicago team's contribution of notoriously unreliable rooms should not give it the power effectively curate which events are run and when. Your offer of compromise bugs me because I don't think someone should have the power to offer deals to a whole community just because his name is on the room reservation.

I hope this tournament is held elsewhere next year.
Evan Adams
VCU '11, UVA '14, NYU '15

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:37 pm

vcuEvan wrote:The teams, most of which have already made travel arrangements, had no reason to suspect the arrangement would be any different this year. Declaring by fiat that you're unilaterally postponing CO Trash is unfair to these teams. It's also against the spirit of CO Weekend as a community event. It's called Chicago Open merely because of the location. The Chicago team's contribution of notoriously unreliable rooms should not give it the power effectively curate which events are run and when. Your offer of compromise bugs me because I don't think someone should have the power to offer deals to a whole community just because his name is on the room reservation.

I hope this tournament is held elsewhere next year.
First of all, it's ironic that the reliability of Chicago's room reservations is being impugned by someone with the letters "vcu" in his user name. Second of all, an alternative response would be for you to do your damnedest to lobby the trash tournament's management to make the tournament run in such a way that it respects the community's desire to have other events on the Sunday. I originally acceded to running this tournament after trash because trash was announced first, but all that has happened since is that a succession of people have showed up here announcing that there simply isn't enough time for history. Which is what made me bring my initial offer to run this tournament in half a day after trash finishes at 2.00 into question.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6621
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:43 pm

No, people are NOT saying there "isn't time for history," they are saying "you cannot start the history tournament at 2 PM," and that a 3 PM or 3:30 PM start date is far, far more realistic. Since the trash tournament was announced first and I would assume has the support of the community just as much if not more so than history, there is no reason for it to turn in a far weaker event in order to fit some arbitrary 2 PM deadline.

Since I have no idea who is even TD'ing or running this event, I cannot really "lobby" anyone to do anything. I will say that I find your 2 PM date is still unrealistic, that you would be better off starting later, and that if you're adamant that 2 PM is the latest you can start, then I guess you either run this as some sort of concurrent event (a completely poor idea that would be a disaster in terms of logistics) or you find some other date for it (hey, VCU Open is looking for side events!). I personally think that a later start time would not hurt anything for history.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
vcuEvan
Auron
Posts: 1086
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:49 pm
Location: Richmond VA

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by vcuEvan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:45 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:
vcuEvan wrote:The teams, most of which have already made travel arrangements, had no reason to suspect the arrangement would be any different this year. Declaring by fiat that you're unilaterally postponing CO Trash is unfair to these teams. It's also against the spirit of CO Weekend as a community event. It's called Chicago Open merely because of the location. The Chicago team's contribution of notoriously unreliable rooms should not give it the power effectively curate which events are run and when. Your offer of compromise bugs me because I don't think someone should have the power to offer deals to a whole community just because his name is on the room reservation.

I hope this tournament is held elsewhere next year.
First of all, it's ironic that the reliability of Chicago's room reservations is being impugned by someone with the letters "vcu" in his user name. Second of all, an alternative response would be for you to do your damnedest to lobby the trash tournament's management to make the tournament run in such a way that it respects the community's desire to have other events on the Sunday. I originally acceded to running this tournament after trash because trash was announced first, but all that has happened since is that a succession of people have showed up here announcing that there simply isn't enough time for history. Which is what made me bring my initial offer to run this tournament in half a day after trash finishes at 2.00 into question.
I'd like to play your tournament. I got the latest flight possible just so that I could. And I hope trash finishes early enough that your tournament can happen in full. It's just that you using your power over the rooms to make an ultimatum is a big overreach.
Evan Adams
VCU '11, UVA '14, NYU '15

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:50 pm

Cheynem wrote:No, people are NOT saying there "isn't time for history," they are saying "you cannot start the history tournament at 2 PM," and that a 3 PM or 3:30 PM start date is far, far more realistic. Since the trash tournament was announced first and I would assume has the support of the community just as much if not more so than history, there is no reason for it to turn in a far weaker event in order to fit some arbitrary 2 PM deadline.

Since I have no idea who is even TD'ing or running this event, I cannot really "lobby" anyone to do anything. I will say that I find your 2 PM date is still unrealistic, that you would be better off starting later, and that if you're adamant that 2 PM is the latest you can start, then I guess you either run this as some sort of concurrent event (a completely poor idea that would be a disaster in terms of logistics) or you find some other date for it (hey, VCU Open is looking for side events!). I personally think that a later start time would not hurt anything for history.
I asked David earlier today who was TDing the trash tournament precisely so I could figure that out and negotiate with someone instead of "compromising with myself" as GW Bush once said, and as I've done so far. I'm insisting on the 2.00 PM time because 1. it now appears this tournament will need 11 rounds plus finals to get done with the declared field, and 2. because there's been no indication so far about any reciprocal compromise from trash that would make me willing to say "sure; start this thing whenever."

I'm not so sure about the overreach. After all, it seems to have convinced people this is a problem that needs to be resolved, which is a start.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Habitat_Against_Humanity
Rikku
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:51 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Habitat_Against_Humanity » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:07 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:First of all, it's ironic that the reliability of Chicago's room reservations is being impugned by someone with the letters "vcu" in his user name.
.
Irrelevant.
Tees-Exe Line wrote:Second of all, an alternative response would be for you to do your damnedest to lobby the trash tournament's management to make the tournament run in such a way that it respects the community's desire to have other events on the Sunday.
Given that Urgent Call for Unity (a sentiment I'd like to plead for at the moment) is purported to be (at least in part) packet submission, I would make the claim that it would be much easier for the history tournament to find a way to run more efficiently. I'm not making any claim as to whether editing a tournament is harder or easier than writing a tournament; I'm saying that I think it's more feasible for a packet-sub tournament to alter its format "in such a way that it respects the community's desire to have other events on the Sunday," than it is for a tournament written by three people. I'm guessing (assuming packets have actually been submitted, which I think is a fair assumption) you most likely have your questions sorted by category, formatted in something approaching the standard, and sitting in nice, discrete packet-sized word documents. These are easier to alter and work with than the spreadsheets of answer lines and the long categorized Google docs of questions we have to go with them.
Tees-Exe Line wrote:I originally acceded to running this tournament after trash because trash was announced first
It sure was. End of January, if I'm reading the posts correctly.

Internal discussions are currently taking place about the on-site execution of the trash tournament, so expect an announcement shortly. Given that we're going to need help both with staff and rooms, I would hope that you play fair here, especially given that 2/3 of the writing core are former UChicago teammates.
Nolan -
UChicago 09
Michigan State Well-wisher

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2313
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cody » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:11 pm

What the hell are you talking about VCU's room reservations being unreliable? Our reservations are perfectly reliable and don't involve being kicked out by the police if we run too long. If you have a problem with when our room reservations start, you can just deal with it; it doesn't make them unreliable.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:12 pm

Habitat_Against_Humanity wrote:Internal discussions are currently taking place about the on-site execution of the trash tournament, so expect an announcement shortly. Given that we're going to need help both with staff and rooms, I would hope that you play fair here, especially given that 2/3 of the writing core are former UChicago teammates.
My intention has never been anything other than fair play: more specifically, a mutual recognition that there are multiple constituencies and multiple interests to be served, which is why I made the initial compromises that already characterize this tournament. I'm eager, indeed enthusiastic, to staff the trash tournament and to encourage history people to join me in that to make sure it runs smoothly. Please do get back to us on the specifics of the trash tournament's structure and field so we can bring this discussion to a constructive close.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Habitat_Against_Humanity
Rikku
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:51 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Habitat_Against_Humanity » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:23 pm

I'd also like to emphasize how unlikely it is to start History at 2PM even if trash runs preternaturally smoothly with a bullet fired off Kentucky Derby style at 8AM. Ten Packets @ 30 min/round = 5 hours, giving an ending time of 1PM with no allowance for time between rounds or any hiccups whatsoever. Even in the astronomically unlikely chance of that happening, you're going to have to give the folks playing both (as well as the staffers) a break for lunch. Only in the most efficient of all possible universes will History actually be able to start at 2. I'm saying that now because no matter who runs trash, the chances of History beginning at 2 are almost nil and I don't want to have the trash tournament to be pressured to finish to meet a deadline set with no apparent regard for the reality of how quiz bowl tournaments work.
Nolan -
UChicago 09
Michigan State Well-wisher

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:30 pm

Habitat_Against_Humanity wrote:I'd also like to emphasize how unlikely it is to start History at 2PM even if trash runs preternaturally smoothly with a bullet fired off Kentucky Derby style at 8AM. Ten Packets @ 30 min/round = 5 hours, giving an ending time of 1PM with no allowance for time between rounds or any hiccups whatsoever. Even in the astronomically unlikely chance of that happening, you're going to have to give the folks playing both (as well as the staffers) a break for lunch. Only in the most efficient of all possible universes will History actually be able to start at 2. I'm saying that now because no matter who runs trash, the chances of History beginning at 2 are almost nil and I don't want to have the trash tournament to be pressured to finish to meet a deadline set with no apparent regard for the reality of how quiz bowl tournaments work.
This is a conversation I can work with. A couple of things:
1. I will take it upon myself to organize lunch so no one need leave the premises. (Though it would be nice if someone who didn't want to show up at 8 to staff trash could nonetheless take on that task.) The idea would be to have the trash tournament end and everyone eat (potentially during trash's finals), then get started on history right away. The worst possible thing would be to have everyone wonder off looking for food as trash draws to a raggedy close.
2. If you consider shortening the rounds, as I did, 30 minutes/round would be no problem.
3. If you don't want trash to be restricted in this way, the offer stands to run history first and be done at 2.00 or shortly thereafter.

EDIT: Let me also say that the argument "quizbowl tournaments ALWAYS run late: shame on you for thinking this could be done" is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by having this conversation now, because the people running trash have stated outright that they can't be trusted to run the tournament according to a reasonable schedule, which makes all the demands that **I*** change my expectations a little hard to take.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6621
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:36 pm

Look, a reasonable schedule is fine, but you set the arbitrary deadline of 2 PM and are getting peeved that people are not meeting it.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:39 pm

Cheynem wrote:Look, a reasonable schedule is fine, but you set the arbitrary deadline of 2 PM and are getting peeved that people are not meeting it.
I will meet that deadline or come very close. At which point, trash can have from 2.00 PM to whenever the police show up to read its rounds at whatever length and in whatever manner they choose, and I will even do whatever reading is personally assigned to me (and do it well). If the people who insist that tournaments can't be run efficiently are insisting on having the first slot, then you'll have to forgive me for doing everything in my power to enforce some discipline. Ergo, the room threat.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Auks Ran Ova
Forums Staff: Chief Administrator
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:28 pm
Location: Minneapolis
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:43 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:people who insist that tournaments can't be run efficiently
No one is insisting this; what people are actually suggesting is that it is overly optimistic to expect maximal machine-like efficiency from any tournament and, more critically, are offering such compromise options as moving your arbitrarily-selected deadline back slightly to accommodate the chance that something other than "quizbowlers being lazy time-wasters" could cause a delay in the tournament.

EDIT: words
Rob Carson
University of Minnesota '11, MCTC '??
Member, ACF
Member, PACE
Writer and Editor, NAQT

User avatar
Habitat_Against_Humanity
Rikku
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:51 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Habitat_Against_Humanity » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:45 pm

Cheynem wrote:Look, a reasonable schedule is fine, but you set the arbitrary deadline of 2 PM and are getting peeved that people are not meeting it.
This is what I want to avoid. 2PM seems arbitrary and untenable in my mind. Marshall, I'm going to CC you on some emails I've been having with David about this so we can work something out.
Nolan -
UChicago 09
Michigan State Well-wisher

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:50 pm

Ukonvasara wrote:
Tees-Exe Line wrote:people who insist that tournaments can't be run efficiently
No one is insisting this; what people are actually suggesting is that it is overly optimistic to accept maximal machine-like efficiency from any tournament and, more critically, are offering such compromise options as moving your arbitrarily-selected deadline back slightly to accommodate the chance that something other than "quizbowlers being lazy time-wasters" could cause a delay in the tournament.
Since I've gotten in trouble for bringing economics to bear on here before, it is with reticence that I do so again, but here goes: what's going on here is known as the "hold-up problem," in which whoever goes first is in a position to jerk around whoever goes second. It's why P&G make their money from razor blades (though they have the technology to make cheap blades that never dull), or even why your ISP raises its fees with impunity: it's more costly for you to switch once you have their modem or their razor.

This talk about how things inevitably arise and it's just unrealistic to expect trash to be over at 2.00 is providing an excuse ex-ante for an inefficiently-run tournament, with everyone able to somehow transfer the guilt for that inefficiency onto me ex post for having been stupid enough to think it could be otherwise.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:51 pm

Habitat_Against_Humanity wrote:Marshall, I'm going to CC you on some emails I've been having with David about this so we can work something out.
Great; let's talk.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
Mike Bentley
Auron
Posts: 5831
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Mike Bentley » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:00 pm

So in the event that some "compromise" is reached that trash might actually end around 2 (I remain skeptical), I suppose this would give me time to at least play some of this tournament. If anyone's interested in playing (and if there's still a spot open in the field), let me know.
Mike Bentley
VP of Editing, Partnership for Academic Competition Excellence
Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Mike Bentley wrote: If anyone's interested in playing (and if there's still a spot open in the field), let me know.
There's definitely a spot in the field, since I'm now hoping for 22 teams.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6365
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:04 pm

If history is going to start at 2 or later, I'm going to have to drop out.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

User avatar
Mike Bentley
Auron
Posts: 5831
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Mike Bentley » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:54 pm

Looks like Brendan Byrne and I are playing together. Is there still a need for a team to write a packet at this point?
Mike Bentley
VP of Editing, Partnership for Academic Competition Excellence
Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:06 am

Packet submission is truly optional and the tournament will happen whether you write one or not. However, that depends on several people who have yet to submit one actually doing so, which means that a packet from you would offer some welcome insurance.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5692
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by theMoMA » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:24 pm

Is there still time to join this tournament? I can write if necessary.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum

User avatar
Tees-Exe Line
Tidus
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Urgent Call for Unity (July 21, 2013)

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:29 pm

theMoMA wrote:Is there still time to join this tournament? I can write if necessary.
There's definitely still time to join the tournament, and though writing isn't necessary, it is appreciated. Let me say that every team will have a bye, even those that do not submit packets.
Marshall I. Steinbaum

Oxford University (2002-2005)
University of Chicago (2008-2014)

Get in the elevator.

Locked