2013 ICT DI specific question discussion

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2013 ICT DI specific question discussion

Post by setht » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:48 am

Here's a thread for discussion (and posting, if needed/wanted) of specific questions in the DI set.

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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:01 pm

Comment time.

GENERAL: I thought this was a fine set overall. Fine, not necessarily great. I'll point out specific complaints that I had, but there were a few general points I should make first.

1. Answerline choice. There were more than a few instances in which answerlines would outright punish you for knowledge of the subject, either by being too specific, not having enough prompts, or just simply not being the best possible way to test the knowledge being asked.

2. That NAQT transparency. There are always a handful of questions at ICT that start out great, then devolve into a figure-it-out fest. The best example of that I can think of offhand is the tossup on the president's cabinet, but there were certainly others during the day.

3. A few instances of names dropped before description. The best example I can think of is the peroxisomes tossup, where Zellweger's syndrome began a sentence.

I'll do the round-by-round when I get a hold of the packets.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:37 pm

Could you please post the tossup on the Pueblo?

EDIT: For the little that it's worth, I liked the anthropology in this set overall, though this question bothered me a little.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:46 pm

DI ICT round 2 wrote:One group of these people celebrates the Marau and Wuwuchim rites; another tribe of these people has leaders known as bow priests. These people use a structure whose central sipapu represents the world's navel and whose pine ladder entrance symbolizes the descent of the Corn (*) Mother. Some groups of these people undergo initiation into manhood in kivas, after which they can join the ~kachina~ dance. The Zuni and Hopi are tribes of--for 10 points--what people named from the Spanish for "town"?

answer: _Pueblo_ peoples (accept _Hopi_ before "bow priests")
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:53 pm

FWIW, my answer of "Anasazi" on the description of a kiva was negged--one of several examples of insufficient prompting/alternative answers in the set.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:16 pm

As far as I can tell, the first clue is specific to the Hopi and the second to the Zuni. I buzzed on the kiva clue and said Zuni. (As the question implies, that clue appears to apply to many, but not all Pueblo people.) I would have liked more generous (anti-)prompting, but after our protest I think NAQT is already aware of that.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:39 pm

Could someone post the Saint-Saens piano concerto No. 5 tossup? I think I may have not been paying attention to the pronoun at first, but I was confused when I was prompted 2 times on that question.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:55 pm

DI ICT round 8 wrote:The finale of Sergei Prokofiev's work of this genre and number is a toccata variation on the first movement. Another such work quotes a Nubian love song. The best-known such work, whose second movement is marked Adagio un poco mosso in the surprising submediant key of B, opens with three tutti chords answered by piano cadenzas; its (*) regal nickname was coined by Johann Baptist Cramer. For 10 points--give the genre and number of Camille Saint-Saens's Egyptian and Ludwig van Beethoven's Emperor.

answer: _Piano Concerto No. 5_ (accept _Fifth Piano Concerto_ or other variations; prompt on partial answers; prompt on "Egyptian" or "Emperor")
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:56 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
DI ICT round 8 wrote:The finale of Sergei Prokofiev's work of this genre and number is a toccata variation on the first movement. Another such work quotes a Nubian love song. The best-known such work, whose second movement is marked Adagio un poco mosso in the surprising submediant key of B, opens with three tutti chords answered by piano cadenzas; its (*) regal nickname was coined by Johann Baptist Cramer. For 10 points--give the genre and number of Camille Saint-Saens's Egyptian and Ludwig van Beethoven's Emperor.

answer: _Piano Concerto No. 5_ (accept _Fifth Piano Concerto_ or other variations; prompt on partial answers; prompt on "Egyptian" or "Emperor")
Ok, I just didn't hear the pronoun right at first (my fault). Thanks, Jeff!
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by setht » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:58 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:FWIW, my answer of "Anasazi" on the description of a kiva was negged--one of several examples of insufficient prompting/alternative answers in the set.
I'm sympathetic to the idea that this particular tossup (and perhaps some others) would have benefited from a more generous answer line, but I'm not sure I would include Anasazi in an expanded answer line--the use of present tense throughout indicates an extant people, which rules out the Anasazi, no?

I am somewhat torn on whether this question should have just accepted Pueblo, Hopi, and Zuni throughout, or if the current answer line is the right way to go and the problem is that people have made false binary associations (apparently, mostly of the form "kiva = X" for various values of X). A number of common-link questions in the set had answer lines that explicitly accepted every variant/full title/whatever alluded to in the question--e.g. the tossup on nuns in literature accepts a couple titles that include the word nun that were discussed in the clues. Possibly this tossup should have been treated similarly.. but that feels a little weird to me, plus the more I think about it the less I feel this question is really analogous to those common-link tossups.

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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Yeah, that's a thing » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Can someone please post the tossups on Death of Socrates and Heaven?
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Unicolored Jay » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:30 pm

May I see the tossups on boranes and rRNA?
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:35 pm

DI ICT round 11 wrote:This scene is the subject of a 1756 work by Benjamin West, his first historical painting. Works showing it and a similar scene with Cato were created by Giambettino Cignaroli. The Trudaine de Montigny brothers commissioned a work on this theme in which the central figure's open shackles are shown, and in which a man clutches the left thigh of the title figure, whose (*) left hand is raised. For 10 points--name this scene painted by David that shows a philosopher about to drink hemlock.

answer: The _Death of Socrates_ (or La _mort de Socrates_ after "Trudaine"; accept equivalents that mention both Socrates and his death)
DI ICT round 9 wrote:In a song by Yes, a circus from this place contained a giant tent rising a thousand feet from the floor. In a Gorillaz song, the singer saw fire coming out of a monkey's head in this locale, and in a song by Cake, sheep go to this place. Eric Clapton sang that he must (*) "carry on," because he knows he doesn't belong here, in a song about this place's "tears." Los Lonely Boys asked the Lord how far it is to this place. For 10 points--name this place reached in a Led Zeppelin song by a "Stairway."

answer: _Heaven_ (accept _Circus of Heaven_)
DI ICT round 6 wrote:These compounds reduce ketones to alcohols in the CBS reaction. Their structure is encoded in the styx numbers introduced in Walter Lipscomb's study of them. Two series of these compounds that respectively have -2 charge and n+6 hydrogens are termed closo and arachno. They form deltahedral cages with banana (*) bonds. These compounds feature single hydrogen atoms bonded to two other atoms that do not satisfy the octet rule. For 10 points--name these hydrides of the element with atomic number 5.

answer: _borane_s (accept _boron hydride_s; prompt on "compounds of boron" or similar answers; do not prompt on "boron")
DI ICT round 7 wrote:In addition to methylation, C/D box snoRNAs guide this molecule's processing. A portion of it is specifically targeted by ricin, which removes a purine from a portion of this molecule critical for {elongation factor} binding. Molecules occupying the P and A sites interact with the (*) 23S version of this molecule, which catalyzes peptide bond formation. For 10 points--name this molecule that complexes with protein to make the small and large subunits of the organelle responsible for translation.

answer: _ribosomal RNA_ or _rRNA_ (prompt on "RNA"; do not prompt on "ribosomes")
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:09 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
DI ICT round 9 wrote:In a song by Yes, a circus from this place contained a giant tent rising a thousand feet from the floor. In a Gorillaz song, the singer saw fire coming out of a monkey's head in this locale, and in a song by Cake, sheep go to this place. Eric Clapton sang that he must (*) "carry on," because he knows he doesn't belong here, in a song about this place's "tears." Los Lonely Boys asked the Lord how far it is to this place. For 10 points--name this place reached in a Led Zeppelin song by a "Stairway."

answer: _Heaven_ (accept _Circus of Heaven_)
The Gorillaz clue seems sketchily interpretation-based at best and outright made-up at worst. Here's what I just said about it in the IRC:

Code: Select all

(7:03:56 PM) strifeheart: okay this gorillaz clue makes no sense at all
(7:04:07 PM) strifeheart: maaaaaaaaybe you could interpret the song as being set in "heaven"
(7:04:19 PM) strifeheart: but it certainly doesn't explicitly say anything of the sort, or ever use the word heaven
(7:05:19 PM) strifeheart: one section says that the town at the foot of the mountain (which is what the monkey is) is obscured "by great clouds"
(7:05:46 PM) strifeheart: another section says that the strangefolk found, while exploring the mountain, "the caves of unimaginable Sincerity and Beauty." and "the Place Where All Good Souls Come to Rest."
(7:06:25 PM) strifeheart: however there's no indication that the singer was there when he describes seeing fire at the end, nor is the word "heaven" anywhere in the song
Lyrics are here, and they match the song properly. I'd be interested to learn what exactly happened here.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by hydrocephalitic listlessness » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:39 pm

Yeah, I thought this was a bad clue as well. What might have happened is some confusion with the song "Don't Get Lost in Heaven," which is on the same album as "Fire Coming Out of the Monkey's Head."
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:04 pm

Yeah, I figured the clue was about "Don't Get Lost In Heaven," which contains the lyric "And fire coming out of a monkey's head" explicitly, rather than any of the many places mentioned in the previous song on that Gorillaz album, whose title is "Fire Coming Out of A Monkey's Head" without containing that exact lyric. The clue was still inexact and still kind of dumb; given the actual lyrics, either "a _mountain_" or "a _hole in the ground_" is probably more acceptable. Neither song directly states that heaven is a locale where any singers or characters actually are.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Cheynem » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:44 pm

I weirdly never learned the actual song title, but the clue that "Lust for Life" is used in Royal Caribbean Cruise commercials seems really, really early. When I heard the tossup and didn't know what was going on, I dismissed it, but when I actually looked up the song, I realized it was the song I always associate with RCC commercials since it's in every one and has been for years. From what other people were saying, I think they agreed it was a little early.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Yeah, that's a thing » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:47 pm

RyuAqua wrote:Yeah, I figured the clue was about "Don't Get Lost In Heaven," which contains the lyric "And fire coming out of a monkey's head" explicitly, rather than any of the many places mentioned in the previous song on that Gorillaz album, whose title is "Fire Coming Out of A Monkey's Head" without containing that exact lyric. The clue was still inexact and still kind of dumb; given the actual lyrics, either "a _mountain_" or "a _hole in the ground_" is probably more acceptable. Neither song directly states that heaven is a locale where any singers or characters actually are.
Yup. I buzzed with "mountain" right after the lyric drop.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:58 pm

setht wrote:
Tees-Exe Line wrote:FWIW, my answer of "Anasazi" on the description of a kiva was negged--one of several examples of insufficient prompting/alternative answers in the set.
I'm sympathetic to the idea that this particular tossup (and perhaps some others) would have benefited from a more generous answer line, but I'm not sure I would include Anasazi in an expanded answer line--the use of present tense throughout indicates an extant people, which rules out the Anasazi, no?
I hesitated for that reason, but having climbed into a kiva at Bandelier National Monument a few months ago I just couldn't resist. Furthermore, I gather the identification of the Ancestral Puebloans with modern Pueblo people is rather controversial. Shan--do you know anything about this? I think some of the modern Puebloans have kivas but many do not.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:00 pm

RyuAqua wrote:Yeah, I figured the clue was about "Don't Get Lost In Heaven," which contains the lyric "And fire coming out of a monkey's head" explicitly, rather than any of the many places mentioned in the previous song on that Gorillaz album, whose title is "Fire Coming Out of A Monkey's Head" without containing that exact lyric. The clue was still inexact and still kind of dumb; given the actual lyrics, either "a _mountain_" or "a _hole in the ground_" is probably more acceptable. Neither song directly states that heaven is a locale where any singers or characters actually are.
Ahaha, oh man, that's even better.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Tanay » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:04 pm

Can you please post the tossups on George Akerlof, Chile (literature), and Anatole France? Thanks in advance!
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by jonpin » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:04 am

I found it somewhat strange that three consecutive rounds had a trash tossup on common-link words in pop songs. The tossup on "Summer" may not have strictly been that, but "Jimmy quit, Jody got married" led to so many early buzzes that it really was.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by setht » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:07 am

Tanay wrote:Can you please post the tossups on George Akerlof, Chile (literature), and Anatole France? Thanks in advance!
DI ICT wrote:This man collaborated with Rachel Kranton on a 2010 book about how our "identities shape our work, wages, and well-being." This man's wife, who worked with him on the fair wage-effort hypothesis, is vice chair of the Fed. This husband of Janet Yellen discussed credit markets in underdeveloped countries in a paper that presents a "modified reappearance" of (*) Gresham's law due to adverse selection in sales of used cars. For 10 points--name this author of "The Market for Lemons."

answer: George (Arthur) _Akerlof_
DI ICT wrote:One author from this nation asserted that "The poet is a small God" in his "Poetic Art," which exemplified his aesthetic outlook, ~creacionismo~. In addition to Vicente Huidobro, this nation's authors include one who wrote a novel about poet Juan Garc\'ia Madero and the "Visceral Realists," and a novel in which four critics look for the author (*) Archimboldi. Those novels are ~The Savage Detectives~ and ~2666~. For 10 points--name this South American nation, the birthplace of Roberto Bola\~no and Pablo Neruda.

answer: Republic of _Chile_
DI ICT wrote:This author's novel ~The Amethyst Ring~ is part of his tetralogy centering on an academic named Monsieur Bergeret [bair-zhair-ay]. In addition to that ~Contemporary History~, which addresses the Dreyfus Affair, he wrote about Maurice d'Esparvieu [DESS-pahr-"VIEW"] and his guardian spirit, Arcade, in ~The Revolt of the Angels~. He depicted the French Revolution in ~The (*) Gods Are Athirst~, while his best-known novel centers on a {blind} cleric named Saint Mael. For 10 points--name this Nobel Prize-winning French author of ~Penguin Island~.

answer: Anatole _France_ (or Jacques Anatole Fran\,cois _Thibault_)
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Ondes Martenot » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:14 am

I in general thought this was a good set. A couple of little comments.

1. The "bats" tossup had what I thought was an incredibly easy lead-in mentioning white noise syndrome. The fact that this was in the final made this all the more glaring.

2. The myoglobin tossup starts with something about Phantom1/Phantom2 which I have scoured the internet for and have literally found nothing about it. It then mentions the role that histidine plays, which is either very similar to/identical to the mechanism that it plays in hemoglobin, so this seemed like an incredible neg bait for hemoglobin, at least in my opinion.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Cody » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 am

Ondes Martenot wrote:something about Phantom1/Phantom2 which I have scoured the internet for and have literally found nothing about
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/213/1 ... nsion.html
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Gautam » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:40 am

Can we see that Bhagavad Gita tossup?

Edit: Also, that tossup on Thomas Sargent was not very good. It went thusly- "Generic economist doing generic things that are indistinguishable from what other economists do.... FTP name this nobel prize winner." If whoever did want to write a tossup on recent nobel-prize winning stuff, then a tossup on VARs or the market design people would have been more interesting.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:42 am

DI ICT round 16 wrote:This animal suffers from the ~Geomyces destructans~ fungus, which causes white-nose syndrome. Zoologist Donald Griffin, who tried arming them with explosives, experimented by covering their mouths. This animal titles a work in which Alfred's singing disturbs the jailer Frosch, and Rosalinde pretends to be a Hungarian countess to get a watch from (*) Eisenstein. A Thomas Nagel essay on "What Is it Like to Be" one and a Strauss operetta are named for--for 10 points--what mammal that uses echolocation?

answer: _bat_s (accept Die _Fledermaus_ or The _Bat_; accept _chiroptera_ns before "Chiroptera")
DI ICT round 2 wrote:This work was translated as The Song Celestial by Edwin Arnold. Its seventh section names the qualities of nature as lucidity, passion, and dark inertia. This work's second teaching contains instructions to "relinquish the fruit of action." In this work, a royal counselor named Sanjaya repeats a (*) conversation he overheard on the field of Kurukshetra between an initially reluctant warrior and his charioteer. For 10 points--name this dialogue between Arjuna and Krishna in the Mahabharata.

answer: _Bhagavad Gita_ (prompt on "Gita")
DI ICT round 2 wrote:He worked with Neil Wallace on an article that argued that "tighter money now can mean higher inflation now." This author of "Some Unpleasant Monetarist Arithmetic" distinguished between expected and unexpected economic changes, and argued that recession could result from low aggregate demand. He extended (*) Robert Lucas's work on rational expectations, and was cited for empirical research on cause and effect. For 10 points--who shared with Christopher Sims the 2011 Nobel Prize in Economics?
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Charbroil » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:13 pm

Could you post the "permafrost" tossup?
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:20 pm

DI ICT round 6 wrote:Characteristic features overlying these structures include palsas, pingos, and sand-wedge polygons. So-called "drunken trees" result when these structures produce slumping thermokarst terrains. The namesake tables of these regions form the bottom surfaces of active layers, which can undergo a form of solifluction known as (*) gelifluction. Seasonal cracking of these layers allow the growth of ice wedges. For 10 points--name these soil layers that remain below zero degrees Celsius for at least two years.

answer: _permafrost_ (layers or regions) (accept _cryotic soil_s)
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by The Ununtiable Twine » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:58 pm

jonpin wrote:I found it somewhat strange that three consecutive rounds had a trash tossup on common-link words in pop songs. The tossup on "Summer" may not have strictly been that, but "Jimmy quit, Jody got married" led to so many early buzzes that it really was.
It also led to an interesting situation where neither Dargan nor myself could remember the song's name for whatever reason. We both hummed the song to ourselves and of course got beat to a buzzer race by the time we figured it out. Ain't no use in complaining when you got a job to do, I suppose.

I may have more criticisms when I can actually locate our copy of the set.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Charbroil » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:10 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
DI ICT round 6 wrote:Characteristic features overlying these structures include palsas, pingos, and sand-wedge polygons. So-called "drunken trees" result when these structures produce slumping thermokarst terrains. The namesake tables of these regions form the bottom surfaces of active layers, which can undergo a form of solifluction known as (*) gelifluction. Seasonal cracking of these layers allow the growth of ice wedges. For 10 points--name these soil layers that remain below zero degrees Celsius for at least two years.

answer: _permafrost_ (layers or regions) (accept _cryotic soil_s)
Is permafrost commonly known as a "structure?" I knew the "drunken tree" clue but got really confused and thought it might be going for "tundra" or some other sort of larger system.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by setht » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:56 pm

Charbroil wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
DI ICT round 6 wrote:Characteristic features overlying these structures include palsas, pingos, and sand-wedge polygons. So-called "drunken trees" result when these structures produce slumping thermokarst terrains. The namesake tables of these regions form the bottom surfaces of active layers, which can undergo a form of solifluction known as (*) gelifluction. Seasonal cracking of these layers allow the growth of ice wedges. For 10 points--name these soil layers that remain below zero degrees Celsius for at least two years.

answer: _permafrost_ (layers or regions) (accept _cryotic soil_s)
Is permafrost commonly known as a "structure?" I knew the "drunken tree" clue but got really confused and thought it might be going for "tundra" or some other sort of larger system.
I don't know what a common noun for permafrost is--maybe layer, but that felt a bit too revealing to state at the outset of the question.

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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by setht » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:04 pm

Inkana7 wrote:those tossups on "Rome Declaring War" and "The Canadian Great Depression" were really bad ideas (especially the latter!) and we should try to avoid that.
Assuming "we should try to avoid that" means something more general than "we should try to avoid these two specific answer lines," it would be helpful to hear why you feel these were really bad ideas.

Here are the questions:
DI ICT round 5 wrote:This ritual did not require the use of a special flintstone, unlike a similar act that shared its carrying of ~sagmina~ herbs by the ~verbenarius~. This ritual gave a grace period of 33 days after the ~pater patratus~, the leader of the ~fetiales~, had spoken in the forum, to the first (*) native he met, and at the border, listing demands. Then a fire-hardened, blood-colored spear was thrown into the relevant territory. For 10 points--name this ritual justifying military action by a certain city.

answer: _Roman declaration of war_ (accept _Rome starting a war_ or other logical equivalents; accept _indictio belii_; prompt on partial answers)
DI ICT round 12 wrote:The Industrial Standards Act was established as a result of this event, which prompted a strike culminating in the Battle of Ballantyne Pier. It sparked the Social Credit movement in the Western provinces. Mackenzie King refused to give "a five cent piece" to local government at its outset. R. B. Bennett's struggles to mimic (*) FDR's policies led to King's return, and the resultant 1935 trade agreement with the United States began recovery from it. For 10 points--name this long economic downturn.

answer: _Great Depression_ (in Canada)
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Excelsior (smack) » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:04 pm

When describing a physical scientific thing that either doesn't have an obvious pronoun, or for which the obvious pronoun would make the answer transparent, I very strongly prefer the use of the word "thing", which carries with it no implications as to what kind of thing the "thing" actually is. I think that would help in this permafrost tossup.

Also, the leadin to the "bats" tossup was stupid easy.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:44 pm

RyuAqua wrote:Yeah, I figured the clue was about "Don't Get Lost In Heaven," which contains the lyric "And fire coming out of a monkey's head" explicitly, rather than any of the many places mentioned in the previous song on that Gorillaz album, whose title is "Fire Coming Out of A Monkey's Head" without containing that exact lyric. The clue was still inexact and still kind of dumb; given the actual lyrics, either "a _mountain_" or "a _hole in the ground_" is probably more acceptable. Neither song directly states that heaven is a locale where any singers or characters actually are.
Okay, so I edited this question, and I apologize for the issues with it. Basically, I was only aware of "Don't Get Lost in Heaven" when I was reviewing it and didn't think to check for it because I didn't think a band would have a second song involving fire coming out of a monkey's head, let alone one with that as the exact title. And there were issues with that clue ignoring the "two songs with the same deal" problem.

Sorry.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Cody » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:52 pm

Structure is a perfectly fine pronoun for permafrost (though I'm personally a big fan of "thing" and "entity")--it's a reified layer of earth. Anyone who went to "tundra" because of the pronoun "structure" is looney and going the completely wrong way of what the pronoun is implying.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:16 pm

Did anyone power the "Roman declaration of war" tossup? I think the issue with that, besides maybe a transparency thing, is that there's a veritable boatload of Greco-Roman classical rituals whose details aren't really well-known even to a classics buff, since there were so many of them. And spending 1.5 lines on a clue basically saying "it's not a similar thing" isn't the best writing choice...That said, it didn't bother me too heavily.

That tossup on "objects", though, was pretty stupid - did the Meinong clue really rule out "descriptions" or "things" or the German word for "object," and did the Kripke clue rule out "referents"? Did anyone give the incorrect answer of "predicates" at the giveaway, since those are also a philosophy-relevant thing contrasted with subjects?
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by naturalistic phallacy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:19 pm

RyuAqua wrote:That tossup on "objects", though, was pretty stupid - did the Meinong clue really rule out "descriptions" or "things," and did the Kripke clue rule out "referents"?
I, too, wonder if the clues sufficiently referred to "objects". Certainly was confusing to play either way.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:27 pm

I got the "objects" question off of the Meinong clue and I have a hard time understanding how "descriptions" would be correct. "Things" might be fine as a clear equivalent, though Meinong's theory is nearly always referred to as a theory of objects. (The word is Gegenstand, for the German speakers out there.)

Agreed with others on the bats tossup lead-in.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:09 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:I got the "objects" question off of the Meinong clue and I have a hard time understanding how "descriptions" would be correct. "Things" might be fine as a clear equivalent, though Meinong's theory is nearly always referred to as a theory of objects. (The word is Gegenstand, for the German speakers out there.)
Gegenstand can also translate as "thing", or "entity", or less commonly/in various contexts other English equivalents like "article" or "subject" or "topic". As far as I can tell Meinong's theory just uses it in the sense of "a thing", though it looks like it's basically always translated as "object". It was a weird question to play since it sounded to my amateurishly-trained ears that most of the clues were just looking for like "a thing" and I didn't know enough to pick out the right term of art.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Birdofredum Sawin » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:10 pm

Here's the tossup on "objects," which I wrote:

Terence Parsons identified five "extranuclear" properties of these in a 1980 book about a certain type of them. Alexius Meinong proposed a theory of these which suggested that there are types of them that do not exist. In ~Naming and Necessity~, Saul Kripke proposed that certain terms known as (*) "{rigid designator}s" identify these wherever they exist. For 10 points--give this term from philosophy that identifies a particular entity, and which is sometimes contrasted with the "subject."

The first sentence refers to Parsons's work on "nonexistent objects," which is uniquely identifying (the book is called, excitingly enough, "Nonexistent Objects"). Similarly, Meinong's work is always, as far as I know, referred to as his "theory of objects." So I'm not sure I see what the problem with this is, unless you're saying that you just didn't recognize anything in the first two sentences and were thus uncertain what to do when it hit the Kripke clue--but I'm not sure I see how that's an objection to the tossup per se.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:11 pm

Speaking of the Bats tossup, I'm pretty sure white nose disease was the middle clue for a 2012 MSNCT tossup on them
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:15 pm

Birdofredum Sawin wrote:Here's the tossup on "objects," which I wrote:

Terence Parsons identified five "extranuclear" properties of these in a 1980 book about a certain type of them. Alexius Meinong proposed a theory of these which suggested that there are types of them that do not exist. In ~Naming and Necessity~, Saul Kripke proposed that certain terms known as (*) "{rigid designator}s" identify these wherever they exist. For 10 points--give this term from philosophy that identifies a particular entity, and which is sometimes contrasted with the "subject."

The first sentence refers to Parsons's work on "nonexistent objects," which is uniquely identifying (the book is called, excitingly enough, "Nonexistent Objects"). Similarly, Meinong's work is always, as far as I know, referred to as his "theory of objects." So I'm not sure I see what the problem with this is, unless you're saying that you just didn't recognize anything in the first two sentences and were thus uncertain what to do when it hit the Kripke clue--but I'm not sure I see how that's an objection to the tossup per se.
Oh hey, I was just about to edit my post to add that it sounded like a classic NAQT "well, it's in the title of this leadin thing that you didn't know, so no points for you" situation!
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:16 pm

Birdofredum Sawin wrote:Terence Parsons identified five "extranuclear" properties of these in a 1980 book about a certain type of them. Alexius Meinong proposed a theory of these which suggested that there are types of them that do not exist. In ~Naming and Necessity~, Saul Kripke proposed that certain terms known as (*) "{rigid designator}s" identify these wherever they exist. For 10 points--give this term from philosophy that identifies a particular entity, and which is sometimes contrasted with the "subject."
Out of curiosity, what was the full answer line? (I agree with you on the first two clues, but what about the Kripke clue? Could other terms be acceptable there?)
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Birdofredum Sawin » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:36 pm

Ukonvasara wrote: Oh hey, I was just about to edit my post to add that it sounded like a classic NAQT "well, it's in the title of this leadin thing that you didn't know, so no points for you" situation!
I mean, I take the point generally (and the tone in which it's written), but I don't really see the applicability here--for what it's worth, I would have written this tossup the same way for ACF nats (though I would have added another sentence or two). The question of "what is an 'object'?" is a central one to contemporary metaphysics, and Parsons and the Russell-Meinong debate are significant aspects of that debate--certainly I encountered both of them as an undergrad philosophy major. If you don't know much, or anything, about this strand of analytic philosophy, then sure, "no points for you"--but I don't see how that's different conceptually from not knowing anything about Fichte, and thus not being able to get any points on a Fichte tossup.

Also, the answer line was just "objects" with an "accept" for "nonexistent objects"--which is arguably a bit parsimonious on reflection, though not in my view unreasonable. (E.g. the first sentence of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry for "rigid designators" reads "A rigid designator designates the same object in all possible worlds in which that object exists and never designates anything else," which strikes me as a conventional use of the term.)
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:14 pm

DI ICT round 12 wrote:The Industrial Standards Act was established as a result of this event, which prompted a strike culminating in the Battle of Ballantyne Pier. It sparked the Social Credit movement in the Western provinces. Mackenzie King refused to give "a five cent piece" to local government at its outset. R. B. Bennett's struggles to mimic (*) FDR's policies led to King's return, and the resultant 1935 trade agreement with the United States began recovery from it. For 10 points--name this long economic downturn.
answer: _Great Depression_ (in Canada)
I really didn't like this tossup (though I did power it), and neither did the Canadians whom I talked to. The first pronoun really should be "period" and not event. Otherwise, we're lead on a wild goose chase of possible answerlines from the Great Depression. I didn't know the first sentence (I probably should), but the second sentence opens up a can of worms: is this the Palliser Triangle Dust Bowl in Canada? Is this the 1935 election that saw the rise of Social Credit nationally? Is this Bennet's New Deal that came out before that election?

Then we drop the famous "five cent piece" quote from Mackenzie King, which was in the 1930 election and utterly discredits any short-term events conceivable in the previous sentence.

Then we hit "outset" and R.B. Bennett and it becomes clear that they're looking for a period, not an event, and I buzz in with the Great Depression in Canada. I'm all for calling multiple-day events "events," but the great depression was a decade-long period!

Clue wise, Mackenzie King and R.B. Bennett could probably come up later then they do.

In other news, the Roman Declaration of War was definitely powerable because fetiales (the priests who do the ritual) was in power, but it took a bit for Dallas and me to figure it out.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:15 am

Masked Canadian History Bandit wrote:
DI ICT round 12 wrote: In other news, the Roman Declaration of War was definitely powerable because fetiales (the priests who do the ritual) was in power, but it took a bit for Dallas and me to figure it out.
That tossup really threw me because I picked up that it was some Roman ritual very quickly, but despite all of the Livy, Plutarch, Sallust, Appian and Polybius on my bookshelf, I couldn't remember ever coming across it, although I see now that it's in Book 1 Chapter 33 of Livy. Is there anywhere else where this ritual is described? It seems like there are a lot of other Roman ritual-like topics that could have been tossed up instead.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:25 am

Birdofredum Sawin wrote:
Ukonvasara wrote: Oh hey, I was just about to edit my post to add that it sounded like a classic NAQT "well, it's in the title of this leadin thing that you didn't know, so no points for you" situation!
I mean, I take the point generally (and the tone in which it's written), but I don't really see the applicability here--for what it's worth, I would have written this tossup the same way for ACF nats (though I would have added another sentence or two). The question of "what is an 'object'?" is a central one to contemporary metaphysics, and Parsons and the Russell-Meinong debate are significant aspects of that debate--certainly I encountered both of them as an undergrad philosophy major. If you don't know much, or anything, about this strand of analytic philosophy, then sure, "no points for you"--but I don't see how that's different conceptually from not knowing anything about Fichte, and thus not being able to get any points on a Fichte tossup.

Also, the answer line was just "objects" with an "accept" for "nonexistent objects"--which is arguably a bit parsimonious on reflection, though not in my view unreasonable. (E.g. the first sentence of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry for "rigid designators" reads "A rigid designator designates the same object in all possible worlds in which that object exists and never designates anything else," which strikes me as a conventional use of the term.)
This is entirely fair; like I said, I'll certainly admit my lack of in-depth knowledge and inability to generate the proper term of art. I do think the answerline is parsimonious--what if I were a more reckless player, and I chose to buzz somewhere late in the Kripke clue with "things"? I don't think it's overly generous to at least prompt.
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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by setht » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:50 am

Inkana7 wrote:
Masked Canadian History Bandit wrote:
DI ICT round 12 wrote: In other news, the Roman Declaration of War was definitely powerable because fetiales (the priests who do the ritual) was in power, but it took a bit for Dallas and me to figure it out.
That tossup really threw me because I picked up that it was some Roman ritual very quickly, but despite all of the Livy, Plutarch, Sallust, Appian and Polybius on my bookshelf, I couldn't remember ever coming across it, although I see now that it's in Book 1 Chapter 33 of Livy. Is there anywhere else where this ritual is described? It seems like there are a lot of other Roman ritual-like topics that could have been tossed up instead.
The main source is Livy (I think), who mentions the ritual multiple times. See here for more textual sources. The Roman declaration of war was one of the most memorable rituals covered in an ancient Roman history class I took back when we called it recent Roman history. I agree that there are many Roman rituals that could have been tossed up, but I thought that this was one of the more distinctive/well-known ones, and that it was clearly fair game for an ICT tossup.

Going back to Matt (Jackson)'s comments, the bit in the lead-in was meant to help distinguish the declaration of war from the ritual for establishing a treaty, which was the other main function of the fetiales. My thinking here was that the fetiales and the colorful details of the ritual (stopping three times to announce demands, waiting 33 days then throwing a spear into the enemy's territory) were too easy for the lead-in, plus starting with fetiales wouldn't make it clear which of two rituals was being asked. I'm not sure what would have been a better lead-in--it seems like putting fetiales in the middle makes sense, but then it would be nice to give something to distinguish which fetiales-led ritual is being asked in case someone has very deep knowledge.


Bats lead-in: this is my fault. The tossup originally had a much harder lead-in (a bit from a D. H. Lawrence poem), then said Geomyces destructans but not white nose syndrome. I thought this was a bit top heavy and could use more middle, so... that tossup happened.

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Re: DI specific question discussion

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:04 pm

setht wrote:
Inkana7 wrote:
Masked Canadian History Bandit wrote:
DI ICT round 12 wrote: In other news, the Roman Declaration of War was definitely powerable because fetiales (the priests who do the ritual) was in power, but it took a bit for Dallas and me to figure it out.
That tossup really threw me because I picked up that it was some Roman ritual very quickly, but despite all of the Livy, Plutarch, Sallust, Appian and Polybius on my bookshelf, I couldn't remember ever coming across it, although I see now that it's in Book 1 Chapter 33 of Livy. Is there anywhere else where this ritual is described? It seems like there are a lot of other Roman ritual-like topics that could have been tossed up instead.
The main source is Livy (I think), who mentions the ritual multiple times. See here for more textual sources. The Roman declaration of war was one of the most memorable rituals covered in an ancient Roman history class I took back when we called it recent Roman history. I agree that there are many Roman rituals that could have been tossed up, but I thought that this was one of the more distinctive/well-known ones, and that it was clearly fair game for an ICT tossup.
That's fair. I had just couldn't recall ever coming across it either in class or out, although I do know I was assigned to read that one section of Livy last year, so it just must not have stuck.
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