Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Old college threads.
Make sure your seatbelt is fastened
Lulu
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:46 pm

Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Make sure your seatbelt is fastened » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:49 pm

I'd like to thank all the contributors for the set:

- Charlie Dees wrote all of the music and one trash
- Avery Wagner wrote about ten literature questions and all of the current events, along with one trash
- Jason Loy wrote all of the math, and a couple of the chemistry
- Jacob O'Rourke wrote about 25/5 of the history, and one literature tossup

And I wrote the rest and edited the set.

Feel free to discuss specifics on this thread. We have 3-5 more upcoming mirrors, and would love to get fixed versions of the set out to the TDs ASAP.
Itamar Naveh-Benjamin
Mizzou '19
UVA '23

User avatar
Huntur
Lulu
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:49 am
Location: Blacksburg, VA

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Huntur » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:12 pm

Two things of immediate note:
I was annoyed with the pronunciation guide being before the word to be pronounced. I was told this can be done but, if nothing other than consistency's sake with every other set I've read, I'd prefer it after the word.
R5 B4 b: I'm pretty sure (and the teams playing agreed with me) that "speed of light" should be "speed of sound".
Brian Mongilio
Virginia Tech '16, Treasurer 2011-Present
Parkersburg South (WV) '11

User avatar
The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
Tidus
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT) » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:47 pm

Overall, I was happy with the tossups. Just a few things:
On the slaves tossup, the Amistad should not be in power. Also, the Perseus tossup should not mention killing Acrisius in the first line.
Adam Sperber
Hickman '10, Northwestern B '14

" 'Yay, more Adam Sperber' --Nobody " --Cody Voight

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:29 pm

As mentioned by Itamar, I wrote the trash tossup on fairies, along with all of the auditory fine arts questions. These are the answers I wrote on:

13/13 Music
Mozart's Requiem
Israel
conductor
The Four Seasons
Franz Liszt
Franz Schubert
George Handel
the note G
Felix Mendelssohn
Johannes Brahms
oboe
sonatas
The Sorcerer's Apprentice

Allegri-Palestrina-Rome
Rachmaninoff-2nd Piano Concerto-symphony
Bach-Double violin concerto-Vivaldi
Clavier-Beethoven-harpsichord
Mahler-Vienna-lieder
Tabla-India-sitar
Gregorian chant-Notre Dame-Credo
Barber of Seville-Tristan and Isolde-violin
Borodin's string quartets-Dvorak-Poland
Faure-Pavane-cello
R. Strauss-Nazi-Webern
viola-Hindemith-Telemann
Saint-Saens-Organ Symphony-The Swan

1/1 Jazz
Kansas City

Chick Corea-Miles Davis-trumpet

0/1 Musicals

Sondheim-West Side Story-Officer Krupke

3/3 Opera

Carmen
The Met
Rimsky-Korsakov

Un Bel Di-Madama Butterfly-Puccini
Venice-Monteverdi-Scarlatti
Orpheus-Gluck-Paris

2/2 Dance

The Sleeping Beauty
waltz

Khatchaturian-Prokofiev-USSR
Ravel-Ballets Russes-Leo Delibes

I wanted to use this tournament as a chance to ask about music in some different ways, and as a result I tried to find a bunch of clues that i think are really important and can reward people who have a decent music education/literacy but who aren't quizbowl players, because unfortunately I don't think enough people in quizbowl have the kind of knowledge to sort through those clues and find the ones that are buzzable. As part of that I admit I occasionally deviated from the ideal difficulty for this event, and occasionally wrote clues that perhaps were fraudable (like the Israel question with really Jewish names). I hope that the decision was ultimately a net benefit in terms of educational content/showing people what else can be done with music questions. I know it annoyed some people, but on the other hand I was pretty happy to see a lot of really good real knowledge buzzes on them in my own room (especially from a band teacher who showed up to play who is a local middle school coach normally), so I stand by most of my decisions and want to hear whether or not people thought it worked.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:35 pm

I'm also obviously particularly interested in what musicians thought about those questions of course, so you guys in particular, please drop in.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
Tidus
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT) » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:37 pm

Horned Screamer wrote:I'm also obviously particularly interested in what musicians thought about those questions of course, so you guys in particular, please drop in.
My X years of playing violin (including several doing Suzuki) greatly helped, so that was a plus. Overall I greatly enjoyed the music in this set.
Adam Sperber
Hickman '10, Northwestern B '14

" 'Yay, more Adam Sperber' --Nobody " --Cody Voight

Urech hydantoin synthesis
Tidus
Posts: 523
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Urech hydantoin synthesis » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:46 pm

A couple of things:

Finnish myth - I feel like the clue about the killing of the pike is more famous than whatever came after it (but before the egg clue)
Perseus - I would like to echo Adam's comments about Acrisius
Black holes - Cygnus X-1 is not leadin material
Shiva tossup and Vishnu bonus in the same round
Odysseus bonus seemed to be rather lacking in difficulty
In round 8, all of the history was military history, and all came up in the first half
What the hell was that Hegel tossup
Handsome Jack seemed too hard to toss up
I'm not sure if Thetans should have been that early for the Scientology tossup

Other than that, I think this set was not too shabby and rather fun.
Ben Zhang

Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell '23
Columbia University '18
Ladue Horton Watkins HS '14

User avatar
The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
Tidus
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT) » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:55 pm

Christ, I Know wrote:Handsome Jack seemed too hard to toss up
Echoed. Also the Andy Bernard tossup could have been rephrased; a "this character" might have made it a bit clear as to what it was asking for.
Adam Sperber
Hickman '10, Northwestern B '14

" 'Yay, more Adam Sperber' --Nobody " --Cody Voight

User avatar
Beevor Feevor
Rikku
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:03 am
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Beevor Feevor » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:55 pm

That Hegel tossup got basically frauded in the first 5 words by someone on my team at the VT mirror, though admittedly it wasn't the greatest used guess in the world. Also, for the music tossup on G, was the clue about the note being sol on the fixed do solefege the first line? I thought that would be too easy and continued to think it was too easy to be a lead in for the note until we got to the part about it being the dominant of C, a clue which I also feel was too easy to be in power. Other than that, some randomization issues such as the one Ben pointed out about the military history in Round 8, and some repeats/difficulty variations (two French Revolution bonuses, and some bonuses with pretty difficult third parts compared to ones like Robespierre-Jacobins-Marat), this wasn't too bad of a tournament, though not the best I've ever played, and pretty fun.
Eric Xu
Western Albemarle High School '15
University of Virginia '19

User avatar
Huntur
Lulu
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:49 am
Location: Blacksburg, VA

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Huntur » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:23 pm

It's not really worth arguing over because it's trash, but I want to defend the Handsome Jack toss-up. I've not even finished my first play through of Borderlands 2 but I could have powered that pretty easily. Handsome Jack is not just the main antagonist, but he talks to you something like every 5 minutes if you're following the main story line and the clues about the weird things he says (those lines are pretty remember-able, especially "Butt Stallion") are all in power. The rest of the clues after power point you squarely at Borderlands 2 and then just pull the only notable bad guy in the game.

The usual response to why this went dead in a lot of rooms is that "I've never played Borderalnds 2". It's an extremely recent and well-received video game and I would say that anyone who has picked it up for more than an hour would be able to get this before it went dead. And the tossup on Mew was considerably more difficult until the give away.
Brian Mongilio
Virginia Tech '16, Treasurer 2011-Present
Parkersburg South (WV) '11

User avatar
The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
Tidus
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT) » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:52 pm

Huntur wrote:It's not really worth arguing over because it's trash, but I want to defend the Handsome Jack toss-up. I've not even finished my first play through of Borderlands 2 but I could have powered that pretty easily. Handsome Jack is not just the main antagonist, but he talks to you something like every 5 minutes if you're following the main story line and the clues about the weird things he says (those lines are pretty remember-able, especially "Butt Stallion") are all in power. The rest of the clues after power point you squarely at Borderlands 2 and then just pull the only notable bad guy in the game.

The usual response to why this went dead in a lot of rooms is that "I've never played Borderalnds 2". It's an extremely recent and well-received video game and I would say that anyone who has picked it up for more than an hour would be able to get this before it went dead. And the tossup on Mew was considerably more difficult until the give away.
While this is true, you had no hope of even buzzing on Handsome Jack unless you had played Borderlands 2 whereas with Mew, it's a very gettable answerline that you just had to have deeper knowledge (of trash) to power.
Adam Sperber
Hickman '10, Northwestern B '14

" 'Yay, more Adam Sperber' --Nobody " --Cody Voight

User avatar
Jeremy Gibbs Paradox
Rikku
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:54 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO
Contact:

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:11 pm

I have a little more detailed critique of the trash that I don't feel like sharing at the moment but could someone please post "thrift shop" "gangam style" and "good feeling"?
TINA! BRING ME THE AXE!!!!

Sean Phillips
Boonville HS 00
WUSTL 04
SLU Law 07
Member MOQBA 2008-present
Is it wrong I like Boonville most of those 3?:)

Make sure your seatbelt is fastened
Lulu
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Make sure your seatbelt is fastened » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:17 pm

One figure in this video wears a white shirt with stickers of the numbers 11 and 22 and the letters G, B, and H on it. An hourglass with pink sand stands atop a ledge in one part of this video, where the central character dons a blue towel while leaning on a fat man. This video’s central figure wags his finger and walks towards the viewer after an explosion behind him. At the start of this video, a (*) plane crosses the sky with a banner that has this video’s central figure’s face on it, after which that same central character dances through a horse stable. For 10 points, identify this music video for a song which repeats “hey, sexy ladies,” by PSY.
ANSWER: music video for “Gangnam Style

At the beginning of this song’s music video, the singer and his friend get into a silver DeLorean. This song declares “peep game, come take a look through my telescope.” Earlier, the singer is “headin’ to the mezzanine,” after which he admits that “John Wayne ain’t got nothing on my fringe game.” At one point in this song, the singer asks “what you know about rockin’ a (*) wolf on your noggin?,” and later also asks “no for real, ask your grandpa, can I have his hand-me-downs?” This song features Wanz singing about “popping some tags.” For 10 points, name this collaboration between Ryan Lewis and Macklemore about buying cheap clothes.
ANSWER: “Thrift Shop

In one part of this song’s music video, the singer is seen jumping rope on a bunch of rocks near the beach. This song claims that “mama knew I was a needle in a hay stack,” and the singer later states that he’s “got the heart of 20 men.” After the first chorus, the singer asserts “Yes I can, (*) doubt that I leave, I’m running with this plan.” This song’s chorus samples from Etta James’s “Something’s Got a Hold On Me,” which contains the line, “woah, sometimes, I get a feeling.” For 10 points, name this 2011 song off of the album Wild Ones, by rapper Flo Rida.
ANSWER: “Good Feeling
Itamar Naveh-Benjamin
Mizzou '19
UVA '23

User avatar
dwd500
Lulu
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:33 am

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by dwd500 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Horned Screamer wrote: a band teacher who showed up to play who is a local middle school coach normally
Yeah, that was me. I had a lot of fun with this. The TU on the note G was the only one that didn't have me with 2 or 3 possible answers rolling around in my head after a while. Fixed Do = Do on C = Sol on G. I teach movable Do, but I go over fixed Do, like, once a year just to let the kids know about it. It was very cool to see stuff I use in my career come up.

The conductor one and the Schubert one had me over-thinking myself. Usually in Music History, anytime you mention Schumann, Brahms is coming up - I kept thinking "didn't Schumann die before Brahms? Why would he find stuff left behind? That's stupid, it's got to be wrong. Crap, I missed like two sentences!" The conductor one had me on the edge of "it's conductor, right? Wait - CONDUCTOR? Maybe they're after a director in a certain place, they mentioned the Philly Sound. 1st Chair violin? Isn't that concertmaster? Maybe that's it. Wait a sec and see. Now here comes Lully, it's gotta be...crap, I just got out-buzzed on my own profession."

The oboe question had me thinking "viol da gamba" at first, and I buzzed in with "cello" way too early. I could have still got it if I had waited another sentence.

Ombra mai fu was the clue where I got Handel - if you want something to keep you awake at night, watch Klaus Nomi singing that.

Most bonuses I got to hear the other team stab at. (We were 2-9 on the day) Thank you for writing about Allegri, Palestrina and Hindemith. Hindemith needs more love from writers. Could someone post the Gregorian chant bonus, I never got to hear that.

The Borodin's string quartets I heard in a practice while we were on our bye round. The guy in 104 (Avery?) read them for us. Could that be posted? I answered just "Borodin" going off the "Kiss Me Kate" Tony award.
David Dennis
Middle School Choir Director
District Scholar Bowl Coach
Washington, MO

Murray State University, 2001
Breckinridge County High School, KY 1996

mithokie
Rikku
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Blacksburg, VA

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by mithokie » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:25 pm

I enjoyed the set even though we didn't win any. The VT field was a tough one.

A few comments on particular questions

Round 2 Limits Toss-up squeeze theorem/pinching theorem (I don't remember what name was used) inside of power is probably too generous of a power since that is a pretty well-known theorem about limits taught early in Calculus.

The music toss-up on G was delightfully interesting. I wasn't aware the fixed do = do on C, so I waited until the clue that said this note was the 5th from C, buzzed and counted to 5 and got a power. Interesting question with strange power placement.

I was denied Booths for Sukkot and felt that deserved a prompt in the Sukkot/Shofar/Western(Wailing) Wall bonus. Feel free to correct me if am wrong here.

I saw someone else get denied a bonus part when they gave Haber process for Haber-Bosch. Haber should be accepted, or at an extreme minimum it should be prompted.

Can I see:
the Moment of Inertia toss-up
Art toss-up on Japan
inner core toss-up
friction toss-up
zero toss-up
Matt Beeken
Blacksburg High School
Math and Physics Teacher
(2012-??)ACE Coach, Blacksburg HS
(2010-12) ACE CO-Coach, Blacksburg HS
(2011-12) Science MACC Coach, Blacksburg HS
Volunteer Assistant (2009-2010) ACE Coach, Blacksburg HS
mbeeken AT mcps DOT org

User avatar
dwd500
Lulu
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:33 am

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by dwd500 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:38 pm

mithokie wrote: I wasn't aware the fixed do = do on C
Yeah, it's a neat system if you can get your ear wrapped around it. C is Do, so if you're in the key of F, you're in Fa Major, the scale goes Fa, So, La, Te, Do, Re, Mi, Fa. If you're in G, that's So major, and the scale is So, La, Ti, Do, Re, Mi, Fi, So.

It's more or less a way to teach singers the notes the way that the instrumentalists do, with the added benefit - if you can memorize where C is, you can read anything in, if not perfect, then with good relative pitch.
David Dennis
Middle School Choir Director
District Scholar Bowl Coach
Washington, MO

Murray State University, 2001
Breckinridge County High School, KY 1996

Make sure your seatbelt is fastened
Lulu
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Make sure your seatbelt is fastened » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:06 pm

mithokie wrote:I enjoyed the set even though we didn't win any. The VT field was a tough one.

A few comments on particular questions

Round 2 Limits Toss-up squeeze theorem/pinching theorem (I don't remember what name was used) inside of power is probably too generous of a power since that is a pretty well-known theorem about limits taught early in Calculus.

The music toss-up on G was delightfully interesting. I wasn't aware the fixed do = do on C, so I waited until the clue that said this note was the 5th from C, buzzed and counted to 5 and got a power. Interesting question with strange power placement.

I was denied Booths for Sukkot and felt that deserved a prompt in the Sukkot/Shofar/Western(Wailing) Wall bonus. Feel free to correct me if am wrong here.

I saw someone else get denied a bonus part when they gave Haber process for Haber-Bosch. Haber should be accepted, or at an extreme minimum it should be prompted.

Can I see:
the Moment of Inertia toss-up
Art toss-up on Japan
inner core toss-up
friction toss-up
zero toss-up
You're absolutely right about Haber-Bosch. The question I wrote only had Haber underlined; I think when all of the questions were compiled into packets, Bosch was accidentally underlined as well.

I didn't realize that Sukkot was also the "Day of Booths;" upon further inspection, it appears as though that should've been accepted. In general, while reading the set, I came upon several other questions without enough alternate answers ("The Art of Love" for Ars Amatoria, for one), for which I apologize.

Here are the questions you requested:

This quantity is unchanged for an object that is stretched along its principal axis according to Routh’s rule. Resonant frequency equals one over two pi times the square root of rotational friction over the square root of this value. A theorem named for Huygens and Steiner used to find this value equals this value around the (*) center of mass plus mass times the square of the perpendicular distance between the center of mass and the axis of ration. That theorem is the parallel-axis theorem. This quantity’s coefficient is one-twelfth for a rod and two-fifths for a sphere. For 10 points, name this rotational analogue of mass, symbolized I.
ANSWER: mass moment of inertia (prompt on Ibefore it is mentioned)

One artist from this country depicted people carrying umbrellas in his depiction of a Great Bridge, Sudden Storm. Another painted a man hunting a cat-fish with a gourd, while a third created an enormous Landscape of the Four Seasons. An artist from this country illustrated a black Carp Leaping up a Cascade, and also painted numerous figures toiling to transport packages in his (*) Travelers Crossing the Oi River. That artist also created thirty-six different views of the title mountain, along with a work that features an ocean storm with that same mountain in the background, his Great Wave off Kanagawa. For 10 points, name this home to ukiyoe artists Hiroshige and Hokusai.
ANSWER: Japan

This region is separated from the region surrounding it by the discontinuity named for Keith Bullen. The I in PKIKP waves represents their refraction through this region. This region rotates slightly eastward of the region above it. Compressional waves reach this region with greater intensity than (*) shear waves. This region lies beneath a region whose eddy currents help generate the Earth’s magnetic field. Inge Lehmann proposed this region’s existence, and it is comprised nearly entirely of iron and nickel. For 10 points, name this solid region at Earth’s center, distinct from the outer core.
ANSWER: inner core (do NOT accept “outer core;” do NOT prompt on “core”)

This quantity is the value of a contour integral of a function if the function is analytic at all of the points within the contour, according to the Cauchy-Goursat theorem. For most cases, if the Wronskian of two differential equations is equal to this number, the equations are linearly dependent. A matrix with a large number of these entries is said to be (*) sparse. A matrix is not invertible if its determinant is equal to this number. Raising this number to the power of itself is an indeterminate form. For 10 points, name this number, the additive identity in the reals.
ANSWER: zero

One equation modeling this phenomenon sets this phenomenon's "parameter" equal to four pi squared times the amplitude divided by the square of the periodicity divided by the spring constant, and is known as the Tomlinson model. This force is said to be directly proportional to the applied load according to Amonton's first law, and this force converts (*) kinetic energy into heat. The tribooelectric effect is demonstrated when using this force to generate static electricity. For an object at rest on an incline, this force can be found by multiplying its namesake coefficient by m-g-cosine-theta. This force comes in static and kinetic forms. For 10 points, name this force that opposes the sliding motion between two objects.
ANSWER: friction
Itamar Naveh-Benjamin
Mizzou '19
UVA '23

User avatar
1992 in spaceflight
Auron
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: St. Louis-area, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:31 pm

So like Itamar said, I wrote a lot of the history for Missouri Open (and I would love to hear feedback about the questions I wrote, since this was my first time in charge of most of a college-level category).

Tossups (31/0 History, 1/0 Literature)

Literature:
The Unbearable Lightness of Being

History:
Bonus Army
War of 1812
Korean War
Slaves
Kenya
Prime Ministers of Israel
Chiang Kai-shek
Simon Bolivar
Tokugawa Shogunate
Franz Ferdinand
Revolutions of 1848
Third Crusade
William Wallace
Henry IV of France
Vandals
Richard III
Armenian Genocide
Margaret Thatcher
Battle of Hastings
Sicilian Expedition
Alexander the Great
Marc Antony
Ashoka
Rameses II
Sparta
Catherine the Great
Huguenots
Charles Martel
Paul von Hindenburg
Nicolae Ceausescu
Louis IX (Saint Louis)

Bonuses (3 History)
Stephen of Blois/Plantagenet/Geoffrey
Louis XIV/Fontainebleau/Mazarin
Darius the Great/Persia/Cambyses
Jacob O'Rourke
Washington (MO) HS Assistant Coach (2014-Present); MOQBA Secretary (2015-Present)
Formerly: HSAPQ Host Contact; NASAT Outreach Coordinator (2016 and 2017); Kirksville HS Assistant Coach (2012-2014); Truman State '14; and Pacific High (MO) '10


"And here we are as on a darkling plain, Swept by confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night."
Matthew Arnold, Dover Beach.

User avatar
Huntur
Lulu
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:49 am
Location: Blacksburg, VA

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Huntur » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:57 pm

Finally got a chance to go back through more thoroughly than memory:

R1 Q19 - Squeeze Theorem and L'Hopital's rule are roughly equivalent. Squeeze theorem is too early but if you put L'Hopital first, you're going to get a lot of buzzes with "derivative". I'd suggest killing the L'Hopital clue and add something harder than squeeze theorem and end power on that clue.
R2 Q7 - Answer not underlined or bolded
R2 Q20 - Not 100% sure but xylem may be acceptable up to a point due to being very similar tissues
R3 B9c - How far can equivalents go? For instance, I accepted "Lady in a Red Dress"
R5 Q17 - Answer not underlined or bolded
R5 B14 - Not a huge fan of this bonus especially with an unnecessarily hard 3rd part. Maybe ask for the competitor given an opponent?
R5 B16 - "Joules per Kelvin" should all be underlined (accept equivalents like "Joules over Kelvin")
R7 Q2 - Typo in the last line
R7 Q18 - Would petals be acceptable?
R10 Q10 - The "depth times weight density" clue is really early and definitely shouldn't be for power
Brian Mongilio
Virginia Tech '16, Treasurer 2011-Present
Parkersburg South (WV) '11

alexdz
Rikku
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by alexdz » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:08 pm

So, I understand why "core" alone is not promptable on the "inner core" question. In my room, I buzzed in on this and said core (basically, not thinking) and *without being prompted*, I said "inner core". Just curious how the TD might have ruled on this situation. The protest ended up not mattering (we lost big time) so it was never officially resolved.
Alex Dzurick
====
Owner/Editor, SAGES Quizbowl Questions
Coach, Harcum College (PA)
====
Former midwesterner (South Callaway - Mizzou - UIUC) coping with life on the east coast.

Urech hydantoin synthesis
Tidus
Posts: 523
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Urech hydantoin synthesis » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:42 pm

In R3B4, it was claimed that Dali painted a version of the Last Supper with a hypercube in it.
Ben Zhang

Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell '23
Columbia University '18
Ladue Horton Watkins HS '14

User avatar
vinteuil
Auron
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:21 am

Horned Screamer wrote:I'm also obviously particularly interested in what musicians thought about those questions of course, so you guys in particular, please drop in.
I'll bite. I wasn't crazy about a lot of this set ("this mineral"→"granite" among many other things), and I have to admit to being irritated by the music on more than a few occasions. I'm fine with the idea of including things that performers would learn (as opposed to musicologists)—considering that I'll probably be pursuing graduate degrees in music performance, I'm obviously going to consider it "academic"—but I felt the execution to be pretty poor in a few cases.

Off the top of my head—

Israel—yeah this was transparent
The Four Seasons—was this supposed to be academic? Max Richter???
Franz Liszt—"this pianist" oh really
the note G—I felt like the sol clue was a total gimme, but I could be overestimating the prevalence of fixed-do solfège in elementary music education. I'd be interested to see the rest of the question. This seems to me to really be the only question that was really an attempt to be "for musicians" i.e. based on things you learn as a performer rather than as a student of music history
Felix Mendelssohn—the Joachim clue seemed poorly worded to me, but maybe it was misread (not a great mod that game)
Johannes Brahms—I feel like "intermezzo" shouldn't go that early in a Brahms question just because he wrote soooooo many, but maybe that's not that well-known among quizbowlers even if it is among musicians.
oboe—this question really pissed me off. We don't actually know that BWV 1060 was originally in c minor for oboe and violin—it's also been reconstructed for two violins, and it very likely could have been a whole step higher (i.e. d minor not c minor), like many of the other originals of the harpsichord concerti. There are zillions of other great Bach clues for "oboe" (obligato parts in vocal works for instance, or Brandenburg 1 or 2 or or or) and I'm really sick of hearing quizbowl questions talk about reconstructed works as if they're real pieces—we just don't know. I don't care if the Neue Bach-Ausgabe includes it, at least have the decency to throw that uncertainty in there.
sonatas—also I felt like sonata form was a total gimme, but maybe others would disagree
The Sorcerer's Apprentice—same with "this scherzo," assuming that the scherzo from a larger work wouldn't get tossed up at this difficulty (i.e. no).

Allegri-Palestrina-Rome—I heard "Mozart described" not "Mozart transcribed" but bad reader.
Rachmaninoff-2nd Piano Concerto-symphony—the Second Piano Concerto question was o.k. but it felt a bit labored/overlong
Bach-Double violin concerto-Vivaldi—major overlap with other questions but that's ok. What was the exact answerline for "double violin concerto"? I got prompted on "Bach double" which, among musicians, unambiguously refers to that piece, but I got accepted on "BWV 1043."
Clavier-Beethoven-harpsichord—also thought the wording on Clavier was labored.
Gregorian chant-Notre Dame-Credo—Notre Dame was a good idea, this was nice. Gregorian chant wasn't actually specific to Gregorian (as opposed to any other kind of plainchant) until "named after a pope," but I guess that's not an issue with that clue.

The Met—transparent?
Venice-Monteverdi-Scarlatti—Please don't imply that Monteverdi wrote L'Orfeo in Venice.....

waltz—"this dance" seemed a bit premature at the beginning—maybe "this kind of composition?" Especially considering that Tchaikovsky was a ballet composer, this felt pretty fraudable.

The bonuses here also demonstrate a tendency that this tournament had in general: serious bonus variability. Clavier/Beethoven/Harpsichord was groan-worthy for an entire room of players, including some people who barely know who Beethoven is, but Gregorian chant/Notre Dame/Credo got a lot of bemused looks, at least in the room I played it in (and I guess Allegri/Palestrina/Rome was pretty hard too? Maybe subbing Miserere for Allegri would make it easier?).

And "Rome" reminds me—there was a ton of repetition of answerlines. Especially "zero," with that pretty stupid chemistry tossup and then the math and then there was a third one somewhere.
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:39 am

perlnerd666 wrote:The Four Seasons—was this supposed to be academic? Max Richter???
Is there a problem with Max Richter? He's a currently active classical composer who is one of the more well known living composers, and the clue I used is about a piece he wrote for a string ensemble that has been performed in regular concerts and is released on noted titan of a classical label Deutsche Grammophon so it's not like I'm asking about his techno works, and it is also relatively recent so somebody who pays attention to him would have heard about it happening not too long ago. I want criticism but I don't like it when the criticism is based on gut reactions of distaste for a particular person's work rather than actual problems.
Franz Liszt—"this pianist" oh really
The reason I wrote this tossup was because I wanted a question about a famous 20th century performer, and the people I was originally thinking about were either too hard or made more sense being mentioned as clues in other questions, so I decided to dig back and ask about Liszt with a lot more emphasis on his performance history and what people were saying about him rather than asking about his compositions, and also to ask about his piano transcriptions a little bit because I rarely hear those mentioned in quizbowl but they were a huge part of his life's work. I am skeptical that people are really going to hear "pianist" and make that simple of a buzz, but if that's the case then perhaps I overestimate peoples' willingness not to make gambles in games, given that there are plenty of famous pianists.
the note G—I felt like the sol clue was a total gimme, but I could be overestimating the prevalence of fixed-do solfège in elementary music education. I'd be interested to see the rest of the question. This seems to me to really be the only question that was really an attempt to be "for musicians" i.e. based on things you learn as a performer rather than as a student of music history
This note is “sol” in the fixed-do system. Haydn’s Surprise symphony is in this note’s major key. This is the note a perfect fifth above C. Bach’s Anna Magdalena Notebook included a Minuet in this key that Willie Nelson recorded, and Bach’s 3rd orchestral suite includes an “Air” partly nicknamed for this note. There are two flats in this note’s minor key, and a single sharp in its major key. Beethoven’s 5th symphony’s opening motif is three of these notes followed by E-flat. For 10 points, name this note, a whole step below A, that is the lowest string on the violin.
ANSWER: G
Speaking to my own education, I never learned fixed-do in any context inside or outside of a classroom, and the only time I encountered solfege at all was at a music camp where they used the Kodaly hand symbols method of moveable do. I am hedging my bets that the only people who can buzz on that clue are in fact musicians, which feels like the correct way to execute a leadin to me.
Felix Mendelssohn—the Joachim clue seemed poorl worded to me, but maybe it was misread (not a great mod that game)
This man conducted his protégé Joseph Joachim in a performance of Beethoven’s Violin Concerto when the violinist was 12. This man’s violin concerto in E minor was the first to have the violin begin playing with little orchestral introduction, a pre-written cadenza, and no breaks between movements. This man’s Leipzig Gewandhaus orchestra led the “Bach revival” with a performance of the St. Matthew Passion. This man used the strings to represent waves around Fingal’s Cave in one work, and he wrote the melody to “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing!” He also depicted Bottom turning into an ass in one overture. For 10 points, name this composer of the “Hebrides” overture and incidental music to A Midsummer Night’s Dream.
ANSWER: Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy [prompt on “Bartholdy”]
I don't personally see a problem with that clue - if you're a music person you should realize I wouldn't mention Joachim that early in a question about a Brahms and Joachim wasn't Brahms's protege anyway, and the concert I'm talking about there was pretty famous because it helped make Beethoven's concerto more popular and made Joachim more famous as a child prodigy.
Johannes Brahms—I feel like "intermezzo" shouldn't go that early in a Brahms question just because he wrote soooooo many, but maybe that's not that well-known among quizbowlers even if it is among musicians.
I googled the use of the word intermezzo on quizbowlpackets.com, and there are tons and tons of hits for that word that don't mention Brahms, and I think between that and the nature of the word intermezzo being commonly used for TONS of pieces in lots of operas and other contexts, it wasn't some kind of gimme clue to anybody who didn't know a lot about Brahms.
oboe—this question really pissed me off. We don't actually know that BWV 1060 was originally in c minor for oboe and violin—it's also been reconstructed for two violins, and it very likely could have been a whole step higher (i.e. d minor not c minor), like many of the other originals of the harpsichord concerti. There are zillions of other great Bach clues for "oboe" (obligato parts in vocal works for instance, or Brandenburg 1 or 2 or or or) and I'm really sick of hearing quizbowl questions talk about reconstructed works as if they're real pieces—we just don't know. I don't care if the Neue Bach-Ausgabe includes it, at least have the decency to throw that uncertainty in there.
I am fine with that complaint, I was writing that question and experiencing block as to where to find good clues, and then I remembered that "oh, I saw a concert with Hilary Hahn playing something with oboe, and I have a recording of her playing the same thing, maybe that would work." I don't know enough about the piece outside of that context, and if you do a cursory google search of the concerto you kind of have to go digging to find stuff that explains that it might be an adaptation, so I apologize for using that clue because I agree that can be frustrating, I profess my own ignorance on the nature of its composition.
sonatas—also I felt like sonata form was a total gimme, but maybe others would disagree
I am again willing to hedge my bets that very few rooms had people buzz in on sonata form, and that this is a clue that is obvious to musicians and nobody else. It is a topic I don't believe I have ever heard come up in quizbowl in the first place, at least not in games I've played.
The Sorcerer's Apprentice—same with "this scherzo," assuming that the scherzo from a larger work wouldn't get tossed up at this difficulty (i.e. no).
Again though, do people know this is a scherzo? Most people only know it's a symphonic poem by Dukas used in Fantasia. Unless I'm misjudging, I strongly suspect that most of the people who know that it's technically also a standalone scherzo are few enough that they are an appropriate number of people buzzing off the leadin.
Rachmaninoff-2nd Piano Concerto-symphony—the Second Piano Concerto question was o.k. but it felt a bit labored/overlong
My personal philosophy is that, while a four line bonus part is always too much, there's nothing wrong otherwise with trying to throw as much information to make things absolutely clear to everybody as you can in a bonus part. As a player I always am fine with long bonus parts too, because I see no downside to hearing as much as possible to help you, so I guess to me this complaint is alien to some of my editorial approach.
Bach-Double violin concerto-Vivaldi—major overlap with other questions but that's ok. What was the exact answerline for "double violin concerto"? I got prompted on "Bach double" which, among musicians, unambiguously refers to that piece, but I got accepted on "BWV 1043."
There wasn't overlap with other questions though. Literally not one clue referred to there comes up anywhere else. The answerline I wrote was "ANSWER: Double Violin Concerto [or anything indicating it is a concerto for two violins]"
Gregorian chant-Notre Dame-Credo—Notre Dame was a good idea, this was nice. Gregorian chant wasn't actually specific to Gregorian (as opposed to any other kind of plainchant) until "named after a pope," but I guess that's not an issue with that clue.
I also accepted plainsong/plainchant on that part in the interest of leniency.
The Met—transparent?
Perhaps, but I felt that it was such an important and interesting topic that should come up that I decided to go with it anyway. I think questions about companies and theaters deserve a greater place in the game, because I think that a topic like the Met is something that people who aren't musicians but appreciate music can get, and because they are considered the pinnacle of achievement within their field - if your opera is being performed at La Scala, or you are the lead soprano in a show the Met, or of course you are a soloist at Carnegie Hall, it means you've arrived in the biggest way possible.
Venice-Monteverdi-Scarlatti—Please don't imply that Monteverdi wrote L'Orfeo in Venice.....
I did no such thing - I said that the composer of Orfeo was a composer who was representative of the Venetian school of composing, which is totally true.
waltz—"this dance" seemed a bit premature at the beginning—maybe "this kind of composition?" Especially considering that Tchaikovsky was a ballet composer, this felt pretty fraudable.
I guess I don't see anything inherently bad about that either. I doubt that most people who don't already know that Tchaikovsky was a huge fan of waltzes will immediately make that jump about how he would use them in his symphonies, and I think there are enough other dances that you wouldn't immediately think "hmm, ballet composer, must mean he was into waltzes."
The bonuses here also demonstrate a tendency that this tournament had in general: serious bonus variability. Clavier/Beethoven/Harpsichord was groan-worthy for an entire room of players, including some people who barely know who Beethoven is, but Gregorian chant/Notre Dame/Credo got a lot of bemused looks, at least in the room I played it in (and I guess Allegri/Palestrina/Rome was pretty hard too? Maybe subbing Miserere for Allegri would make it easier?).
I couldn't imagine that Miserere would be particularly easier than anything, I would think people who don't know it won't get it either way. I admit the bonuses were sometimes variable - as I said above, I sort of chose to do that in order to pursue writing about the topics I thought would be more interesting, feeling like I had a little more freedom to play around and not have it impact anything too important since this is a summer open that's pretty easy. However, I will defend things like the chant bonus as not being too far out of whack either, because I included lots of little clues that should have made it a lot easier if you .were paying attention - in the Notre Dame part I said it was a church in the Seine, and in the Credo part I included the opening line to at least make it real-world applicable for Catholics, since it's notably said every mass and if they don't know that that is the Nicene Creed I am less than sympathetic. Also to go further, the clavier thing had shockingly low conversion in some games that I heard about and read for.

I think perhaps there are a couple editorial decisions I made that account for some of the confusion here. First, I made the decision going in that I view certain composers as important enough to justify asking about them multiple times in multiple ways. For example, even though there is a single bonus part where he is actually an answer, Beethoven comes up 10 times in the set, all asking about different things. To me the point of doing that was to convey that music history is intensely interconnected, and that certain titans of the field exert profound influences on everybody else. I think that the importance of Beethoven and Bach within the field justify me doing things like that, even if it means there might be some answerline overlapping. The second decision I made is to intentionally construct certain things to promote lateral thinking. I am fairly convinced, and even more convinced now that I read your critiques, that I actually did a pretty good job of doing this. I feel like as a musician there are lots of things you can figure out that I was trying to say that nobody who isn't a musician can figure out, and which will allow you to buzz in using logical inferences on a decent number of the clues I used. I am perhaps more ambivalent about lateral thinking than quizbowl on the whole - I freely admit that it's something that I benefit greatly from as a player, but I do understand why lots of people dislike it. There are certainly lots of contexts where it makes questions bad, but, I think it's not inherently a bad thing and can in fact reward people who know A FUCKING TON about some subjects much more easily, which to me is the ultimate goal. I think your criticisms are coming from the position that they are automatically bad things, which is understandable given that it's a widespread view, but I don't agree with you if so.

As for repeated answerlines, I don't have enough involvement with the set to speak to that but I am pretty sure the clues used in the repeating answerlines were distinct unless I'm misremembering reading them, so I think that that is a legitimate difference in editing philosophy that doesn't actually have much wrong with it unless it breaks down and you start repeating clues.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Cody » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:01 am

I agree with many of Jacob's criticisms, and I thought a lot of the music in this set was quite poor.

sonata - This is the only musical form you can toss up at this level, and to top it off, you immediately move into "a work of this type" which somehow makes it even more obvious. This would've been a fine question if you hadn't included the clue about the symphony.

waltz - Jacob is right here. There are very few dances you can toss up at Fall level and this is by far the one that makes the most sense / is easiest.

conductors - Due to a packet mishap, my team was one of the few to hear this tossup at our site, which is a good thing because it was awful. Leading in with fairly famous conductor Riccardo Muti is whatever, but then you put "first violinist" in the second sentence (yes, I'm aware it's a real thing)! "oh, this is a position in an orchestra?"

G - The first clue in this tossup is dumb. For one thing, I think it's very famous due to the Sound of Music, but more importantly, you have to sing it out in your head, at which point the next clue has already been read (which, I'll note, is NOT Haydn's Surprise Symphony).

Four Seasons - I don't really want to get into the Max Richter argument because that wasn't the biggest problem with the tossup, but I regard him as the epitomy of fake composers. More relatedly, pretty much everyone hated his recomposition and it has essentially disappeared from the public conscious (certainly mine) at this point. Deutsche Grammophon is far from an arbiter of 'real classical' either. However, the real problem with the tossup is that you only get two clues before "The Contest Between Harmony and Invention"; this question had an extremely early power mark (possibly the earliest) because it got too easy too quickly.

Mendelssohn - You should've described his violin concerto before dropping the key signature.

I think the music had a lot of the same problems as the rest of the set: early clues that allowed you to narrow down to the answer too quickly (Federalists in the War of 1812, for instance), pronouns that give away the answer because you can only toss up a few things in their category at this level, lots of bonus variability (that round with hard parts on "unique factorization domain", "A Pair of Blue Eyes" and "W S Merwin" vs "superacids", "Klimt", "Harrison Bergeron"). I'll comment on the music bonuses later if I feel like it.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:25 am

I don't understand why sonata is the "only" form of music I could ask about here. I would think concerti and symphonies both would be at least as accessible tossup answers.

Comically, the "sol" in The Sound of Music is an F. They never say that C is do in the song, given that they are using moveable-do. So, again, you have to actually know some stuff to get that right, and if you "figured it out" from the song you are getting lucky.

Are you guys seriously piling on Max Richter right now though? There are a number of things that I expected to be discussed in the set, but this isn't one of them. Look, you can hate whatever composers you want - I think Bruckner sucks - but that doesn't change the fact that they fundamentally write some kind of art music to be performed on classical instruments in concert settings. Philip Glass can be argued by the right kind of hater to be every bit as trashy as Max Richter (I know people who think Glass is a lot worse, actually), yet Glass is completely accepted in the modern classical music canon. Until Max Richter is out there producing pop songs for his career, I'm going to have 0 problem asking a single sentence about something he wrote for string orchestra that happened within the last year and is a perfectly fine new leadin to one of the otherwise most stale answer choices in all of quizbowl. I am seriously frustrated to see multiple people complaining about this, because I want to listen to your criticisms but this just smacks to me of being in incredibly bad faith.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Cody » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:03 am

Horned Screamer wrote:I don't understand why sonata is the "only" form of music I could ask about here. I would think concerti and symphonies both would be at least as accessible tossup answers.
Maybe my terminology is incorrect, but I was referring to the first clue about it being the musical form in the first movement of symphonies. First and foremost it's the only tossupable form at Fall level and secondly, it's the one of a tiny number of forms with crossover to a "works of this type" tossup - certainly the only one with crossover that can be tossed up.
Horned Screamer wrote:Comically, the "sol" in The Sound of Music is an F. They never say that C is do in the song, given that they are using moveable-do. So, again, you have to actually know some stuff to get that right, and if you "figured it out" from the song you are getting lucky.
Fair enough, but you seem to be missing the bigger problem with that clue. (However, moveable-do can still start from C [the natural starting point], which is where I was starting from. The point about the Sound of Music is that its extensive permeation into popular culture means a *lot* of people know 'do re me fa so la ti do' [and hopefully can count])
Horned Screamer wrote:Are you guys seriously piling on Max Richter right now though? ... I am seriously frustrated to see multiple people complaining about this, because I want to listen to your criticisms but this just smacks to me of being in incredibly bad faith.
I dislike many composers that I don't complain about coming up, but anyone mentioned -- all the time -- in the same breath as Olafur Arnalds or Eluvium is completely fake, in my opinion. You again seem to be missing the larger critique here, which is that his recomposition of Four Seasons has fallen by the wayside rather quickly, even disregarding that it was questionably classical at best.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:46 pm

I'm not missing the point - Olafur Arnalds is a 25 year old techno artist, and Eluvium is an electronic ambient musician. It may entirely be the case that sooner or later they will start writing music that is more squarely in the tradition of classical music and deserve to come up, but right now they don't, so there's a reason I didn't mention them. Max Richter on the other hand is an older composer who is writing pieces that meet a very mainstream definition of classical music (namely, he composed a piece for string orchestra that can be performed in a concert hall, and previous works of his were for string quartets and the like). It's really that simple. Also, it still came out in October 2012. That's still insanely recent, so it's not unreasonable to think somebody could have heard of it then and remembered it. I'm not interested in discussing it further, as I'm remaining convinced that there should be nothing controversial about using a single Max Richter clue (especially if Philip Glass is still fair game), beyond to also accuse you of making up a bad critical reaction to the piece I mentioned, which I am googling around and seem entirely incapable of finding anything related to. Can you produce me 2 pieces of obvious negative coverage? Everything I'm encountering seems to read like this - http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/concer ... recomposed
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/oc ... ur-seasons
In other words, it's seemed all basically positive in mainstream press.

I think people will be amused that, when I went to look up something on the Deutsche Grammaphon site, the very top of the page announces "Deutsche Grammophon is classical music."
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
1992 in spaceflight
Auron
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: St. Louis-area, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:02 pm

Hey everyone, I'd also like to hear about the history I wrote. Criticisms would definitely be appreciated. (Cody, would you mind elaborating more on the War of 1812 tossup? Did you think I placed the Blue Lights clue too early?)
Jacob O'Rourke
Washington (MO) HS Assistant Coach (2014-Present); MOQBA Secretary (2015-Present)
Formerly: HSAPQ Host Contact; NASAT Outreach Coordinator (2016 and 2017); Kirksville HS Assistant Coach (2012-2014); Truman State '14; and Pacific High (MO) '10


"And here we are as on a darkling plain, Swept by confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night."
Matthew Arnold, Dover Beach.

Make sure your seatbelt is fastened
Lulu
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Make sure your seatbelt is fastened » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:26 pm

The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:Hey everyone, I'd also like to hear about the history I wrote. Criticisms would definitely be appreciated. (Cody, would you mind elaborating more on the War of 1812 tossup? Did you think I placed the Blue Lights clue too early?)
I think he was referring to the combination of mentioning "British," "Federalists," and "war" way too early in the power. I should've caught that -- my bad.
Itamar Naveh-Benjamin
Mizzou '19
UVA '23

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Cody » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:40 pm

I'm only aware of David Hurwitz's negative review on ClassicsToday (which is certainly the classical review site I trust the most, despite some of Hurwitz's foibles). Perhaps my perception is unduly influenced by the negative reactions (by people I respect) on the forum I read, but I stand by my previous assertion.

You can browse until your heart is content through all the DG albums categorized under non-classical genres on discogs, including the recent Tori Amos album Gold Dust. You can even read about some of the stupid crap that's been released under the ``Recomposed'' series in the article you linked!

Jacob: basically what Itamar said. The Federalists were only around for a very brief period in American history; their lifespan basically coincided with two(?) wars.

I do want to note that -- overall -- I thought this tournament was an extremely good first effort, Itamar.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Matthew Bonnan
Lulu
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:22 pm
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Matthew Bonnan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:53 pm

Could I see the Tokugawa tossup? I caught myself sleeping and only heard "Ezo" and "Hakodate"; then I consequently negged with Meiji.
Joshua Duncan
UVA '16

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:04 pm

Renesmee LaHotdog Voight wrote:I'm only aware of David Hurwitz's negative review on ClassicsToday (which is certainly the classical review site I trust the most, despite some of Hurwitz's foibles). Perhaps my perception is unduly influenced by the negative reactions (by people I respect) on the forum I read, but I stand by my previous assertion.
So in other words you don't know of even two articles of musical criticism attacking the piece and are insisting you're right anyway because of a blog post and some people on a forum. I'm so glad the empirical data is really being brought to this discussion.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Cody » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:14 pm

Uh, my review is from the premiere online classical review site. Your link is to a blog post. (yes, I'm now aware of other reviews that aren't blog posts, but that doesn't change the above fact).
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:30 pm

It's still a single negative review from one guy's website. I'm not saying it's disreputable, I'm aware that that site is pretty big, but that doesn't change that in classical music there is no single tastemaker and you were insisting based on that single review that the piece was panned into oblivion, which it pretty obviously wasn't. Do you understand why every single thing about this argument that somebody who is a classically trained composer with a fairly long history of being involved with the modern classical music scene is somehow too trashy to have a single sentence of a music tossup be about one of his orchestral works because you read a website that gave a recording of it a bad review is infuriating? There are any number of things that warrant actual discussion and criticism that I would be willing to discuss with players, but the fact that this single detail drives you so far up the wall that we've been sidetracked into an incredibly silly argument makes me finally get how frustrating it is when tournament discussions are derailed. I broke my previous promise to not discuss this before, but I'm doubling down on it, if people want to complain more about that clue, understand that I will not respond to you and will be sitting in a dark room laughing at you like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkaDRvFYoZA
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Cody » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:58 pm

If I somehow implied that it was panned into oblivion, that wasn't my intention; my point about it disappearing from the public conscious was supposed to be separate from that. Yes, I do think that someone who has had four albums reviewed by Pitchfork is too trashy to appear in the classical music distribution--just like The Dirty Mac and Willie Nelson--but that's completely separate from the fact that his Four Seasons Recomposed hasn't been thought of in about six months because it's unremarkable and won't be around in even two years.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
vinteuil
Auron
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:20 pm

I think I might have been overly negative about a few things, but, honestly, Charlie, to address one particular point (watch as Jacob breaks the comma button on his keyboard!), I know plenty of people—ok, I am one of those people—who would consider Philip Glass to be too "trashy" to be in the classical distribution, just like Sullivan/Offenbach/Strauss/Andrew Lloyd Webber/Sousa. So that point isn't really helping your case with me at least.

Same with record labels. At one point, at least—I don't know if this is still true—Sony Classical had the best-selling classical record of all time. It was the soundtrack to Titanic.
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:20 pm

Ok so let's talk the Willie Nelson clue, because I actually care about it and it's something that has a little more substance than this annoying diversion. Minuet in G by Bach (or whoever may have actually written it) is undeniably a classical piece which is incredibly famous and recognizable to lots of people. My opinion has always been that no matter what kind of performer you normally are, if you use your instrument to perform a classical piece without adding anything like a new vocal track over it, you are at that particular point in time acting as a classical musician. As such, I think that Willie Nelson performing this piece in an arrangement for guitar is a clue that should be fair game. I wanted my questions to both reward you heavily if you know about music but to tie in the fact that music isn't created in a vacuum and make things be accessible to people who have extremely casual knowledge. Thus, I mentioned the Knesset hearing that Barenboim was in, or the Fantasia clues in The Sorcerer's Apprentice (since I think Fantasia counts as art film anyway), or the fact Mendelssohn wrote the melody of "Hark, the Harold Angels Sing," or the fact that the KC jazz scene collapsed once Pendergast's machine fell and they weren't being protected from being shut down anymore. In the same vein, I think it's totally fair game to have a late clue in a tossup reward people who listened to Willie Nelson's most famous album who thus engaged with a very famous classical piece.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:22 pm

OK but Jacob, does Philip Glass come up all the time in quizbowl music, totally uncontroversially? Yes, he does, because people realize that, whatever flaws his works have, they still are written for a particular kind of setting and aren't intended to be pop music.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
vinteuil
Auron
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:24 pm

Horned Screamer wrote: if you use your instrument to perform a classical piece without adding anything like a new vocal track over it, you are at that particular point in time acting as a classical musician
lolololgounod

I have no problem with that clue, honestly, partly because classical guitarists play that piece too and in pretty much the same way—I guess if John Paul Jones' versions of Rach in various live versions of "No Quarter" or Seohyun's performance of part of "Alborada del gracioso" on Into the New World (yes, I went there) were more famous, they could also be fair game.
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

User avatar
vinteuil
Auron
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:34 pm

Horned Screamer wrote:OK but Jacob, does Philip Glass come up all the time in quizbowl music, totally uncontroversially? Yes, he does, because people realize that, whatever flaws his works have, they still are written for a particular kind of setting and aren't intended to be pop music.
I will definitely concede this one to you—well, at least John Rutter isn't famous enough to come up often.
I would note that Max Richter is more famous for his pop work—and that I would honestly complain less (maybe not at all) if "For No One" were the first clue for "clavichord," so maybe my prejudices are showing.
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Cody » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:53 pm

I disagree with much of your defense of Willie Nelson because people are not engaging with his music as classical music. I don't believe any of his work belongs in the classical music distribution just like I don't think a film like Star Wars or Jaws belongs in the film distribution because, despite their importance, they are nearly entirely consumed as works of popular culture. I have no problem with the other clues you mention because they are relevant enough to their specific subjects.

However, I think most of this is immaterial because the Willie Nelson clue (just like The Dirty Mac clue, which is even less defensible) added absolutely nothing to the(ir) tossup(s). I'd be fairly incredulous if there was even a single person in quizbowl who is not aware of Minuet in G but is aware of "a Minuet in this key that Willie Nelson recorded," much less anyone who played this tournament.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:10 pm

Renesmee LaHotdog Voight wrote:I disagree with much of your defense of Willie Nelson because people are not engaging with his music as classical music. I don't believe any of his work belongs in the classical music distribution just like I don't think a film like Star Wars or Jaws belongs in the film distribution because, despite their importance, they are nearly entirely consumed as works of popular culture. I have no problem with the other clues you mention because they are relevant enough to their specific subjects.

However, I think most of this is immaterial because the Willie Nelson clue (just like The Dirty Mac clue, which is even less defensible) added absolutely nothing to the(ir) tossup(s). I'd be fairly incredulous if there was even a single person in quizbowl who is not aware of Minuet in G but is aware of "a Minuet in this key that Willie Nelson recorded," much less anyone who played this tournament.
OK but I don't think it matters so much how people choose to engage the music being presented to them. It simply is a performance of a composition from the 1700s that happens to have been done by a person who is otherwise a country singer. I think it's important philosophically to emphasize that the divide between classical and other music isn't as wide as people think, and so even though I could have written that clue in a way to not mention Willie Nelson, I editorially decided to write it that way instead because I find it interesting that Willie Nelson did a rather straightforward performance of a famous classical piece on his most famous album, and I think other people might too. The reason I mentioned the Dirty Mac was sort of the same thing - mostly, I wanted to find a way to include Ivry Gitlis in the leadin to the question, because he doesn't really have a lot of good clues but is a very very very important violinist and when I was researching him I found out he was in a one-off supergroup playing his violin and working with John Lennon. I wouldn't include that clue in a regular tournament, but it struck me as an interesting enough connection between one of the better classical musicians of that era with a controversial game changing rock artist that I said "this is a summer open, fuck it" and threw it in. I don't have as much investment in it as an actual good clue to really defend it, but there was a reason behind me choosing it.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Panayot Hitov
Wakka
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 1:59 pm
Location: Northfield, MN

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Panayot Hitov » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:16 pm

An email I sent to Itamar wrote: Regarding the Turkey bonus in round 6 or so: Turkey doesn't control Northern Cyprus, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus does that.

Lots of bonuses lacked hard parts, or even medium parts. The round 1 bonus on World War II is an example of this.

For the Saramago question, putting a book title in the first line isn't a good idea.

The trash was lame, except for the "Money" Mayweather question, which was good.

The Spanish Succession question was way too easy.

I think "Republic of Ezo" is too easy as a lead-in for the Tokugawa shogunate.

The chem common-link on "0" was lame.
These were my issues with the set. If anyone thinks these are wrong, feel free to enlighten.
Paul Kirk-Davidoff
Oakland Mills High School '14
Carleton College '18

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:28 pm

What was lame about the trash?
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
1992 in spaceflight
Auron
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: St. Louis-area, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:25 pm

Hey Paul, what is it that makes you think that the Republic of Ezo is too easy as a leadin for the Tokugawa Shogunate? The only thing I could find in a quick search on the database is that it was used as a clue in one NASAT, which is much harder than this was intended to be.
Jacob O'Rourke
Washington (MO) HS Assistant Coach (2014-Present); MOQBA Secretary (2015-Present)
Formerly: HSAPQ Host Contact; NASAT Outreach Coordinator (2016 and 2017); Kirksville HS Assistant Coach (2012-2014); Truman State '14; and Pacific High (MO) '10


"And here we are as on a darkling plain, Swept by confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night."
Matthew Arnold, Dover Beach.

User avatar
Off To See The Lizard
Wakka
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:07 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Off To See The Lizard » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:54 pm

I personally thought the Chem common link on "0" was entertaining and an interesting idea. Can people who didn't like it elaborate on why they disliked it?
Sameen Belal
Walter Johnson '14
New York University '18

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by Charbroil » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:34 pm

The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:Hey everyone, I'd also like to hear about the history I wrote.
My major issue was that there seemed to be quite a bit of military history. Looking at the list of answers, a little less than a third of the tossups were on military answers and about another third had military history clues. (I don't have the set in front of me, so my number for the latter group might be off). There seems to be a lack of cultural/social history (except for the tossup on "slaves").

That said, I greatly enjoyed this set; thanks to everyone who wrote it!
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
1992 in spaceflight
Auron
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: St. Louis-area, MO

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:41 pm

Charbroil wrote:
The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:Hey everyone, I'd also like to hear about the history I wrote.
My major issue was that there seemed to be quite a bit of military history. Looking at the list of answers, a little less than a third of the tossups were on military answers and about another third had military history clues. (I don't have the set in front of me, so my number for the latter group might be off). There seems to be a lack of cultural/social history (except for the tossup on "slaves").

That said, I greatly enjoyed this set; thanks to everyone who wrote it!
Itamar picked out a lot of the history answers before I came on board. I definitely should have changed some of the answers once I realized that there was a ton of military history around, so that's my bad.
Jacob O'Rourke
Washington (MO) HS Assistant Coach (2014-Present); MOQBA Secretary (2015-Present)
Formerly: HSAPQ Host Contact; NASAT Outreach Coordinator (2016 and 2017); Kirksville HS Assistant Coach (2012-2014); Truman State '14; and Pacific High (MO) '10


"And here we are as on a darkling plain, Swept by confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night."
Matthew Arnold, Dover Beach.

User avatar
vinteuil
Auron
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:23 pm

Off To See The Lizard wrote:I personally thought the Chem common link on "0" was entertaining and an interesting idea. Can people who didn't like it elaborate on why they disliked it?
Well, it was a question on what doesn't happen, as opposed to what does, which means rather arbitrary clues—I heard one complaint that "they literally could have just made anything up for that and it would have been correct."

I think it's a neat idea, but it's sort of like writing a tossup on books that an author didn't write—why?
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

User avatar
vinteuil
Auron
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: Missouri Open Question-Specific Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:29 pm

Some things I lost track of responding to in the wake of certain musical sidelines—
Horned Screamer wrote:I think perhaps there are a couple editorial decisions I made that account for some of the confusion here. First, I made the decision going in that I view certain composers as important enough to justify asking about them multiple times in multiple ways. For example, even though there is a single bonus part where he is actually an answer, Beethoven comes up 10 times in the set, all asking about different things. To me the point of doing that was to convey that music history is intensely interconnected, and that certain titans of the field exert profound influences on everybody else. I think that the importance of Beethoven and Bach within the field justify me doing things like that, even if it means there might be some answerline overlapping.
I totally agree with this, and have expressed discontent at the lack of these composers (precisely these composers) in quizbowl music, given just how diverse and plentiful their works are, how broad their exposure is, and how central they are to the canon, so this in particular was probably my single favorite part of this tournament. More of this.
Horned Screamer wrote: The second decision I made is to intentionally construct certain things to promote lateral thinking. I am fairly convinced, and even more convinced now that I read your critiques, that I actually did a pretty good job of doing this. I feel like as a musician there are lots of things you can figure out that I was trying to say that nobody who isn't a musician can figure out, and which will allow you to buzz in using logical inferences on a decent number of the clues I used. I am perhaps more ambivalent about lateral thinking than quizbowl on the whole - I freely admit that it's something that I benefit greatly from as a player, but I do understand why lots of people dislike it. There are certainly lots of contexts where it makes questions bad, but, I think it's not inherently a bad thing and can in fact reward people who know A FUCKING TON about some subjects much more easily, which to me is the ultimate goal. I think your criticisms are coming from the position that they are automatically bad things, which is understandable given that it's a widespread view, but I don't agree with you if so.
So I think I understand a little better what you're trying to do here, and while my knee-jerk reaction is "no lateral thinking bad kill it with fire," I will say that if it in fact does consistently reward people who know more about a subject, then it's fine, because that knee-jerk reaction comes precisely from "lateral thinking" normally rewarding people who don't know as much about a subject. That means, I guess, that more of these kind of clues definitely need to be used (and I'm all for that) and we'll see how over time how they play with a broader set of players.
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

Locked