Question feedback request

[AKKOLADE]

Here are the questions I wrote or edited. Asterisks denote editing only.

DI

TUs: hammers in pop culture, Toby Keith, Allman Brothers, eating people in myth, Alice Cooper, Silver Linings Playbook, New England Patriots, Adventure Time, Raidohead*, Kanye West*

Bonuses: Jack London, Boucher, men associated with Helen of Troy, Despicable Me 2, Fragonard, artists associated with Rauschenberg, NCIS, authors who wrote about Antigone, Asher Durand, Bon Iver*, James Brown*, Nirvana*, Danger Mouse/Jack White/The Good, The Bad, The Ugly*, CCR*

DII

TUs: hammers in PC, Tantalus, Never Gonna Give You Up, New England Patriots, Adventure Time, Radiohead*, The 20/20 Experience*, Kanye West*

Bonuses: Jack London, discredited biological theories, NCIS, Dali, Nicki Minaj*, Florida Georgia Line*, Sublime*, Johnny Cash*, Beastie Boys*

[vinteuil]

(DI)

The Radiohead question seemed to have a serious cliff at "Nigel Godrich."

I wish the NCIS question had stuck to the main series, or dropped some other clues about LL Cool J, but I don't know how other people felt about that.

Also, the CCR and Danger Mouse bonuses had pretty hard middle parts, at least to me.

[Gonzagapuma1]

Here are the questions I wrote or edited. Asterisks denote editing only.

DI

TUs: hammers in pop culture, Toby Keith, Allman Brothers, eating people in myth, Alice Cooper, Silver Linings Playbook, New England Patriots, Adventure Time, Raidohead*, Kanye West*

Bonuses: Jack London, Boucher, men associated with Helen of Troy, Despicable Me 2, Fragonard, artists associated with Rauschenberg, NCIS, authors who wrote about Antigone, Asher Durand, Bon Iver*, James Brown*, Nirvana*, Danger Mouse/Jack White/The Good, The Bad, The Ugly*, CCR*

I thought the Allman Brothers and Alice Cooper tossups were good, but both were gotten at the end in the rooms I played in. I think that many current college students don't really know much about either of those topics, but I could be wrong; I wonder how those played in other rooms.

The Silver Linings Playbook tossup was really good. This isn't necessarily your fault, but it felt weird having two Rococo bonuses. Could you post the Bon Iver bonus? I can't seem to remember what the hard part in that was. I thought the Danger Mouse bonus was good and the Nirvana bonus was good as well.

[Important Bird Area]

In 2011 this band released a doubly self-titled album that included the songs "Calgary" and "Perth." For 10 points each--

A. What band fronted by Justin Vernon performed the song "Holocene" and released the album ~For Emma, Forever Ago~?

answer: _Bon Iver_

B. Bon Iver recorded tracks for ~And I'll Scratch Yours~, an album of covers of this former Genesis frontman whose "Sledgehammer" is MTV's most-played video.

answer: Peter (Brian) _Gabriel_

C. Bon Iver's "Holocene" landed at number two on Pitchfork's top 100 songs of 2011, two spots ahead of this artist's "Super Bass."

answer: Nicki _Minaj_ (or Onika Tanya _Maraj_)

[madviking]

(DI)

The Radiohead question seemed to have a serious cliff at "Nigel Godrich."

Yea, probably. I'm not sure how well known Godrich is among non-Radiohead-stans out there, but the reason I didn't buzz earlier on him was I was wondering if he did any work for any other bands (which he has, but is most well known for Radiohead).

Speaking of which, can I see the full Radiohead tossup?

[Important Bird Area]

Piano covers of songs by this band are featured in multiple albums by Christopher O'Riley. This band's early work with engineer Nigel Godrich includes the songs "Talk Show Host" and "Black Star." A CGI mountain range appears on the cover of their 2000 album (*) ~Kid A~, which marked a sharp departure from their three-guitar lineup of such previous hit singles as "Fake Plastic Trees" and "Karma Police." ~In Rainbows~ and ~OK Computer~ are albums of--for 10 points--what Thom Yorke-fronted band?

[Auks Ran Ova]

Yeah, I'm thinking the actual cliff for most people there is at Kid A.

[Gonzagapuma1]

Yeah, I'm thinking the actual cliff for most people there is at Kid A.

Especially because that description of the album cover is pretty much unbuzzable even for people who know that cover.
I would also add that it seems the Bon Iver bonus lacks a hard part.

[theMoMA]

I'll preface this by disclaiming that I didn't write or substantively edit the Radiohead question, but I looked it over several times during editing and thought that the clues were in the right order.

Godrich and Kid A are both definitely clues that people are likely to buzz on if they know things about Radiohead, but in my (admittedly inexpert) opinion, they're not out of place in this tossup relative to the later clues, so this discussion seems to boil down to "this was too easy a tossup on Radiohead." That's a totally fair criticism if it led the question to distinguish knowledge poorly, but I'm seeing no such claims in this thread. I'd generally ask people who are thinking about posting "Clue X was too early in the tossup on Y" to consider whether this actually led to problems before posting, because otherwise you're really just telling us that "I know a thing about Y," and that's not very helpful or interesting.

People should also keep in mind that the typical SCT tossup is around five lines long. If we're writing a tossup so that someone with a solid appreciation and understanding of Radiohead can't buzz until past the halfway point of the question, we're writing a bad question for the SCT field.

I also think that Bon Iver is a fine hard part for an SCT bonus, and based on my empirical observation of a very good trash player not getting that part, I believe I am correct. And I did substantively change this bonus so that Bon Iver was the hard part.

[bmcke]

Nigel Godrich and Bon Iver would be easy to someone who reads music blogs. "Talk Show Host" and "Black Star" might be easy to someone who listens to alt-rock stations or something. Music-blog-readers ("indie snobs") are probably a significant segment of all quizbowl players. I don't know how much it's worth worrying about particular slices of the trash audience, but I think the numbers always show that NAQT's trash questions get powered more than their other questions.

I liked all of Fred's academic stuff, for what that's worth.

[hydrocephalitic listlessness]

Godrich and Kid A are both definitely clues that people are likely to buzz on if they know things about Radiohead, but in my (admittedly inexpert) opinion, they're not out of place in this tossup relative to the later clues

Kid A is out of place - I think that 99% of the people who are going to buzz on "Fake Plastic Trees" or In Rainbows are going to know about it.

I liked the execution of the Kanye tossup, but was there a reason it was all clues from Late Registration? It might have been more interesting to hear some stuff from Yeezus.

[theMoMA]

I liked the execution of the Kanye tossup, but was there a reason it was all clues from Late Registration? It might have been more interesting to hear some stuff from Yeezus.

I don't mean this to be snarky, but it's because the tossup was written/edited that way, and not another way, and what you find interesting is not necessarily what the people who write and edit questions find interesting.

[AKKOLADE]

Nigel Godrich and Bon Iver would be easy to someone who reads music blogs. "Talk Show Host" and "Black Star" might be easy to someone who listens to alt-rock stations or something. Music-blog-readers ("indie snobs") are probably a significant segment of all quizbowl players. I don't know how much it's worth worrying about particular slices of the trash audience, but I think the numbers always show that NAQT's trash questions get powered more than their other questions.

I disagree with this to some extent; last year's Alt-J TU seemed to have got feedback on it that amounted to "too obscure for a TU."

[theMoMA]

Nigel Godrich and Bon Iver would be easy to someone who reads music blogs. "Talk Show Host" and "Black Star" might be easy to someone who listens to alt-rock stations or something. Music-blog-readers ("indie snobs") are probably a significant segment of all quizbowl players. I don't know how much it's worth worrying about particular slices of the trash audience, but I think the numbers always show that NAQT's trash questions get powered more than their other questions.

If you "read music blogs," I'm comfortable saying that you should be getting the hard parts of music bonuses and first-line buzzes on music tossups. At SCT, we're hoping to create the proper distribution of buzzes and ensure that the most knowledgeable person has the best shot at getting the tossup, not to provide an intense test of indie music knowledge for the most knowledgeable few in that already-small segment of the quizbowl populace.

Fred's empirical observation is also correct, I will sadly note as the author and champion of said Alt-J tossup.

[madviking]

I liked the execution of the Kanye tossup, but was there a reason it was all clues from Late Registration? It might have been more interesting to hear some stuff from Yeezus.

I don't mean this to be snarky, but it's because the tossup was written/edited that way, and not another way, and what you find interesting is not necessarily what the people who write and edit questions find interesting.

It's not a matter of interest, but a matter of timeliness; College Dropout just turned 10 years old while Yeezus was released last summer. I think Will's criticism is reasonably valid. If you're going to write a Radiohead tossup that touches upon several of their albums (Pablo Honey, The Bends, Kid A) then why not do the same for Kanye?

[AKKOLADE]

I liked the execution of the Kanye tossup, but was there a reason it was all clues from Late Registration? It might have been more interesting to hear some stuff from Yeezus.

I don't mean this to be snarky, but it's because the tossup was written/edited that way, and not another way, and what you find interesting is not necessarily what the people who write and edit questions find interesting.

It's not a matter of interest, but a matter of timeliness; College Dropout just turned 10 years old while Yeezus was released last summer. I think Will's criticism is reasonably valid. If you're going to write a Radiohead tossup that touches upon several of their albums (Pablo Honey, The Bends, Kid A) then why not do the same for Kanye?

Because there's multiple ways to write a tossup on a musician, and doing it the same way every time isn't the best way, much like following a set formula for historical figures isn't always the best way.

[bmcke]

If you "read music blogs," I'm comfortable saying that you should be getting the hard parts of music bonuses and first-line buzzes on music tossups. At SCT, we're hoping to create the proper distribution of buzzes and ensure that the most knowledgeable person has the best shot at getting the tossup, not to provide an intense test of indie music knowledge for the most knowledgeable few in that already-small segment of the quizbowl populace.

Fred's empirical observation is also correct, I will sadly note as the author and champion of said Alt-J tossup.

My criterion of "reading music blogs" was silly, but I think my point should hold about trash, if not also about indie music. NAQT's numbers have consistently showed more powers on trash questions than academic. Particularly at low levels of play, way more people will be experts on Radiohead than will be experts on kings of Hawaii or Mrs. Warren's Profession. The counter-example of Alt-J is an outlier that could have been caught by just counting Google hits.

I am perfectly happy with trash questions being easy, and I understand that NAQT might also have reasons to want easy trash questions. How much does "proper distribution of buzzes" include keeping the distributions uneven across different categories?

[dxdtdemon]

Godrich and Kid A are both definitely clues that people are likely to buzz on if they know things about Radiohead, but in my (admittedly inexpert) opinion, they're not out of place in this tossup relative to the later clues

Kid A is out of place - I think that 99% of the people who are going to buzz on "Fake Plastic Trees" or In Rainbows are going to know about it.

I liked the execution of the Kanye tossup, but was there a reason it was all clues from Late Registration? It might have been more interesting to hear some stuff from Yeezus.

I guess I am in the 1% then. I buzzed in on "Fake Plastic Trees", and have never heard of "Kid A". This was because the an assignment I once had in a computer science class was to manipulate the lyrics in "Fake Plastic Trees" in various different ways.