2014 ICT: specific questions

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2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:55 am

This is your thread for discussion of individual questions in the 2014 ICT.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:47 am

-I thought the leadin to this year's Division I Kant tossup exemplified every problem with the philosophy clues at this tournament. Can I see that tossup? I seem to remember it actually embedded one fill-in-the-blank clue within another, which is just zany. [EDIT, looking below: Wow.]

-Can I also see the "necessity" tossup? From what I can tell, it had several big problems: for one thing, no one cares about Joseph Priestley's philosophy except maybe a tiny slice of early modern British historians; for another, "de re"/"de dicto" is not a distinction used only for types necessity (and the use of the words "Logicians distinguish between...") isn't going to rule out a lot of alternate answers (such as de re/de dicto belief or de re/de dicto truth, to name two) at ICT-moderator reading speed. For a third, it's technically true that Naming and Necessity can now be purchased in book form, but it was really a lecture series given in 1970, not a book written in 1980.

-Why wasn't "reference" acceptable on the clue about Fregean compositionality? I know that at some magic point in the composing process, the reference of a sentence magically becomes a truth value rather than a meaning, but as far as I know that truth value is assembled through the compositionality theory that other people have since used to talk about "meaning" more generally.

-The tossup on "moral" was a pretty dumb idea, in part because it asked teams to fill in blanks in titles they probably didn't know, but which were clearly describing ethicists doing ethics. I happen to have read some Frances Hutcheson, so I know that he used "moral" and not "ethics/ethical" in his work, but I think it would have been better to just write a descriptive tossup on "ethics (or moral philosophy)" using cool clues from the area of study.

-Sometimes, some tossups dropped a really blatant clue pretty early (the "Snow" surname tossup talked about cholera superstar John Snow all within power, the Manchin tossup narrowed down to current West Virignia politicians very early by saying "Massey Energy"), but this happened only occasionally and it's not really worth dwelling on.

-I'm going to go out on a limb now and say that the tossup on "foraging" was a really cool idea; I like the idea of more ecology/evolutionary biology coming up in quizbowl and that was a fun curveball to witness (even though we negged it).

More later, maybe.
Last edited by Adventure Temple Trail on Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:50 am

ICT round 12 wrote:In his recent work on this author, Manfred Kuehn argues that Kurt Stavenhagen's book on this man and the Seven Years' War shows that Karl Vorlander's earlier work on him is incomplete. A book on this man's "life and thought" was written by Ernst Cassirer, while Peter (*) Strawson's ~The Bounds of Sense~ was inspired by the "transcendental deduction" presented in this man's greatest work. For 10 points--name this German philosopher who discussed synthetic ~a priori~ judgments in ~Critique of Pure Reason~.
ICT round 3 wrote:A 1777 book by Joseph Priestley provides an "illustrated" discussion of this philosophical "doctrine." Sydney Shoemaker distinguished "causal" and "metaphysical" types of this concept, while logicians distinguish "de re" and "de dicto" types of it. This is the second title concept of a (*) 1980 book that discusses the ideas of "identity statements" and "rigid designators." For 10 points--name this concept that is paired with "naming" in a book by Saul Kripke, a term which describes something that must be true.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:04 pm

I'll request feedback on the questions I wrote and/or edited for this set.

Division I

Packet 1: Pitbull TU
Packet 2: Raspberry Beret TU, Shaq/Hayes/Dominique Wilkins bonus
3: Vandross/One Shining Moment/Beyonce bonus
4: RHCP/Blues Traveler/Anthony Rapp bonus
5: Fra Angelico TU
6: Bachman Turner Overdrive TU
7: Velvet Underground & Nico TU
8: Ernest Gambart (Brown/Rossetii/Alma-Tadema) bonus
9: Casino Royal TU
11: Beck TU
12: Allston/West/Wolfe bonus, Yoshi/Tatanga/Tanooki bonus
13: Cornell/Dali/Pitt bonus
14: Oklahoma State TU, Tame Impala/Flaming Lips/Kendrick Lamar bonus
15: Paradise/Coldplay/elephant bonus
18: Sandman TU

Division II

1: Polyphemus TU, Pitbull TU
2: Shaq/Houston/Dominique bonus
4: Shepherd of Fire/Avenged Sevenfold/Metallica bonus
5: Fra Angelico TU, rose TU
6: Dre/Beats/Death Row bonus
7: Police TU
8: Lichtenstein bonus, Kesha bonus
9: Casino Royale TU, Derrida TU, Paris TU
10: Ellington TU, Franco-Prussian War bonus
11: Beck TU
12: Allston bonus
14: Oklahoma State TU, Pork and Beans bonus
15: Coldplay bonus
16: Golden Fleece bonus, Led Zeppelin bonus
17: Niobe TU
18: Penelope TU
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:09 pm

From what I can tell from the above list, most of those questions were the sort of saner, more salient trash which I praised in the general discussion thread. Also, I <3 Anthony Rapp, so yay on you for asking about him.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by vinteuil » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:14 pm

The Velvet Underground debut album tossup dropped the name of their second album without any clues about it in the first line—this seems suboptimal, and generated massive buzzer races in a lot of rooms.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Euler's Constant » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:25 pm

As much as I like my hometown of South Bend and love displaying my knowledge of the best city in the Michiana area, it's definitely not an appropriate answer line, especially for DII. South Bend isn't important anymore (outside of Notre Dame, and I'll get to that) and if you've never lived in the greater Michiana area the first two thirds of the question were probably impossible. Also in the tossup it states that the college football hall of fame is in South Bend, that's no longer true, it's in Atlanta now because no one went to it when it was in South Bend. On another note though I'd have to look at the question again to check the wording on this, Notre Dame technically not in South Bend, it's in Notre Dame, IN.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Holla! » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:45 pm

Feedback appreciated, either here or by PM.

DI:
(2) Novgorod (TU)
(3) Dilma Rousseff (TU)
(4) European-owned archipelagos (B)
(8) Taiwan CE (TU)
(9) Bermuda (TU)
(10) Mitch McConnell (TU)
(14) Tuareg (TU)
(16) Provisions of Oxford (TU)

DII:
(5) Confederate Constitution (TU)
(9) Australia CE (TU)
(11) Benito Juarez (TU)
(14) Kalevala (B)
(16) 1991 Soviet coup attempt (TU), Investiture Controversy (TU)
(17) Ben-Hur (TU)
(18) Bhutan (TU)
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Birdofredum Sawin » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:57 pm

I've probably posted about writing ICT philosophy tossups in some previous year's post-tournament discussion, but I'll post a quick recap anyway.

In general, my approach in writing these is to try to provide a mix of tossups on works themselves; on people; and on concepts (which, in my practice, often amounts to common-link tossups on some concept). For the first, we had tossups this year on (e.g.) Anarchy, State, and Utopia; The Essence of Christianity; and the Theatetus. For the second, we had tossups on (e.g.) Anselm and Russell. For the third, we had tossups on (e.g.) music and on necessity.

For what it's worth, my own interest in philosophy tends much more toward intellectual history than the sort of ahistorical approach that is characteristic of an Anglophone (analytic-heavy) department. So I have a tendency to write leadins on something like Manfred Kuehn's book on Kant (the major Kant biography of the last 50 years, to my knowledge). However, I try also to provide a decent sampling of analytic stuff (e.g., the bonuses on Jaegwon Kim and Carnap).

I'm not particularly interested in defending to the death any particular tossup in this year's set, except in general to suggest that if one has different interests in philosophy, then one will have a different sense of what "no one cares" about. This isn't an attempt to insulate any of the questions in this set from critique--in retrospect, I would definitely have reworked that Kant one a bit if I'd had more time--but rather to suggest the point of view from which I write these things.

Incidentally, if anyone reading this has strongly differing views about what an ICT-level NAQT philosophy question should look like, I invite you to write some! In past years, I have effectively written almost all philosophy questions for the set, faute de mieux--if you have good ideas for such questions, I would be delighted to see them.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:09 pm

Could you post the tossup on the textbook Economics? I already mentioned this to Andrew Hart, but I think it's worth saying to the crowd. This is a bad idea as an answer line for the reasons it's usually a bad idea to toss up social science titles: the titles are very often unmemorable, and because quizbowl is so anal about titles, it creates a variety of sub-optimal situations. In this case, it was obvious at least from mid-way through that it was an Economics textbook and that one is probably the only one that is tossup-able, but I didn't want to buzz with "Samuelson's Economics textbook" because I didn't know whether it was called Economics or some slight variation thereof. Andrew said that answer was noted as acceptable up until Samuelson was named, which is the right way to do that IF you're going to have that as the answer line, but of course the players have no way of knowing that in advance.

The history of economic thought is indeed and important and interesting subject and the influence of that book on intellectual history is certainly appropriate material. I think the idea of tossing up important textbooks has been discussed elsewhere, and the idea isn't bad because of anything substantive. It's bad unless the title is really memorable, or unless we have a special widely-understood "textbook exception" to the usual treatment of titles.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:10 pm

Can I see the Division II tossup on first order reactions? I answered with a specific type (SN1) and was negged, not antiprompted. (No protest was filed as the game outcome was not affected.)

Also, the tossup (DII) on Cygnus did not accept or prompt on the swan; is this standard practice in quizbowl with constellation names?
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Gonzagapuma1 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:14 pm

The Joseph Cornell bonus part was really awesome. He's a pretty important guy who I've never heard come up.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:18 pm

DI ICT round 15 wrote:This text, which was first published a year after a similar one by Lorie Tarshis, later made controversial claims about the growth of the Soviet economy. One version of this text introduced a "family tree," which included an approach that an earlier edition dubbed the "neoclassical synthesis." It popularized the (*) "paradox of thrift" and other Keynesian ideas. William Nordhaus was a later co-author of--for 10 points--what textbook first published in 1948 and edited by Paul Samuelson?

answer: _Economics_(: An Introductory Analysis) (accept any answer indicating Paul _Samuelson's economics textbook_ or _Samuelson's textbook_ before "Samuelson")
This could have used a "description acceptable" note.
DII ICT round 10 wrote:This general class of reactions is modeled by RRKM theory. They ~cannot~ use a mechanism that proceeds by Walden inversion, and their rate constants have units of inverse seconds. Isomerization and dissociation are examples, as are reactions using two-step mechanisms like (*) E1 and SN1. For 10 points--name these elementary reactions that involve only one reactant and whose rate is proportional to a single concentration.

answer: _unimolecular_ reaction or _first-order_ reaction (accept _dissociation_ before "isomerization"; accept _isomerization_ before "isomerization"; prompt on "reactions involving only a single molecule" or similar answers; do not prompt on "elimination (reactions)")
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:47 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
DI ICT round 15 wrote:This text, which was first published a year after a similar one by Lorie Tarshis, later made controversial claims about the growth of the Soviet economy. One version of this text introduced a "family tree," which included an approach that an earlier edition dubbed the "neoclassical synthesis." It popularized the (*) "paradox of thrift" and other Keynesian ideas. William Nordhaus was a later co-author of--for 10 points--what textbook first published in 1948 and edited by Paul Samuelson?

answer: _Economics_(: An Introductory Analysis) (accept any answer indicating Paul _Samuelson's economics textbook_ or _Samuelson's textbook_ before "Samuelson")
This could have used a "description acceptable" note.
I should say: the execution isn't great here either. You basically get minutia about its literal text and publishing history up until "neoclassical synthesis," which is dropped without preceding description, then says a few more economics words. There's been quite a lot written about the intellectual impact of that book and whether it has served as a force for good or ill throughout history and in the field of economics, which I think would yield good, usable clues. (i.e, whether leading economics with math is the best way to present an empirical social science, whether it has led to a self-reinforcing dynamic equilibrium in which math people who only like math and other math people select into economics, whether its emphasis on calculus cemented marginalism in macro as well as micro, whether the "neoclassical synthesis" was actually an ersatz consensus...)

The Satterthwaite tossup also wasn't great. The lead-in was an outright statement of the Myerson-Satterthwaite result, and I then waited until adjectives that could pertain to a voting system were said to pick Satterthwaite, who isn't that well-known except as the namesake of two eponymous theorems. (I'm told the first clue did say he was the "later" author, which I missed at the time. If you're going to do that, it would be nice to emphasize "alphabetically-latter.") Myerson is a far better answer line, since he's done a variety of interesting things, especially related to game-theoretic models of politics, in addition to the Revelation Principle and Myerson-Satterthwaite from his earlier work.

Finally, can you post the "Game Theory" tossup?
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by UlyssesInvictus » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:11 pm

pandabear555 wrote:Can I see the Division II tossup on first order reactions? I answered with a specific type (SN1) and was negged, not antiprompted. (No protest was filed as the game outcome was not affected.)
This happened to me, too, with similar lack of protest. In addition, can I see the tossup on oxidation? I buzzed somewhere around the NCS clue with addition, and was negged.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by setht » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:12 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:can you post the "Game Theory" tossup?
DI ICT round 3 wrote:This discipline's "inverse" form, which utilizes the revelation principle, is known as mechanism design. This field's central models can be expressed using trees with dotted lines joining nodes in information sets; those extensive-form representations contrast with normal-form representations in (*) payoff matrices, which facilitate this field's solution concept of deleting dominated strategies. For 10 points--name this field that studies interaction models like the stag hunt and prisoner's dilemma.

answer: _game theory_ (accept _inverse game theory_ before "models"; accept _mechanism design_ before "mechanism")
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by mtimmons » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:28 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
DI ICT round 15 wrote:This text, which was first published a year after a similar one by Lorie Tarshis, later made controversial claims about the growth of the Soviet economy. One version of this text introduced a "family tree," which included an approach that an earlier edition dubbed the "neoclassical synthesis." It popularized the (*) "paradox of thrift" and other Keynesian ideas. William Nordhaus was a later co-author of--for 10 points--what textbook first published in 1948 and edited by Paul Samuelson?

answer: _Economics_(: An Introductory Analysis) (accept any answer indicating Paul _Samuelson's economics textbook_ or _Samuelson's textbook_ before "Samuelson")
This could have used a "description acceptable" note.
I should say: the execution isn't great here either. You basically get minutia about its literal text and publishing history up until "neoclassical synthesis,"
Maybe I'm mistaken but I think Samuelson's claims about the Soviet economy are reasonably famous (he predicted dates when the Soviet economy would catch up to the US economy which were repeatedly pushed back in newer editions as the original predictions failed to happen). I agree that a 'description acceptable' note would have been good.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:04 pm

UlyssesInvictus wrote:
pandabear555 wrote:Can I see the Division II tossup on first order reactions? I answered with a specific type (SN1) and was negged, not antiprompted. (No protest was filed as the game outcome was not affected.)
This happened to me, too, with similar lack of protest. In addition, can I see the tossup on oxidation? I buzzed somewhere around the NCS clue with addition, and was negged.
DII ICT round 12 wrote:One member of this class of reactions can use NCS and dimethyl sulfide, but normally employs oxalyl chloride and DMSO. An older example uses acetone, sulfuric acid, and chromium trioxide to convert secondary alcohols to ketones. Those (*) "Swern" and "Jones" reactions are in this class that ~creates~ bonds linking carbon to a namesake element. For 10 points--name these reactions contrasted with "reductions."

answer: _oxidation_ reactions (accept _Swern oxidation_ until "acetone"; prompt on "Swern" until "acetone")
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:54 pm

DI tossups from me (all CE): Iowa, Thailand, Serbia, Wyoming, Panetta, Croatia, Georgia (US), Belgium, Nate Silver, ATF
DI bonuses: Romania/Ponta/fracking, Issa/IRS/NOM
DII tossups: Thailand, Sharpton, Vitamin E, Wyoming, The Police, Panetta, Providence RI, Tampa Bay Lightning, Georgia (US), Tagore, Belgium, Nate Silver, doppler, Endymion
DII bonuses: Romania/IMF/fracking, Shepherd of Fire/Avenged Sevenfold/Metallica, background check/Brady/(GOP Sens), Dangerous Liaisons/Laclos/epistolary, Harry Haller/Hesse/Demian, Andorra/Catalan/Llivia, Amritsar/Rowlatt/Golden Temple, Borgia/Lucrezia/Della Rovere
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by swwFCqb » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:14 pm

I'd also welcome feedback on any questions I wrote (underlined answerlines appeared in both D1 and D2):

D1
(1) Time Transfixed, Entebbe Raid
(2) Moldova
(3) Zapp Brannigan
(4) assassination attempt of FDR
(5) Guinea-Bissau/Senegal/Cap-Vert, Olympic Peninsula
(7) Balearic Islands/Ibiza/Cabrera, Gunpowder Plot/Robert Catesby/Holbeche House
(8) Election of 1864, Lake Huron, Kola Peninsula/Lapland/Novaya Zemlya
(10) Annie Hall
(11) Chisholm v. Georgia, Zambezi River
(12) John McClane
(13) caning of Charles Sumner
(14) Lake Athabasca/Alberta/sand dunes
(15) Edward Livingston/Peggy Eaton/John C. Calhoun
(16) Confederate Cabinet/Stephen Mallory/John C. Breckinridge, Great Smoky Mountains NP/Clingmans Dome/North Carolina
(17) Denali NP/Gates of the Arctic NP/fjords

D2
(2) Jewel Voice Broadcast/Hirohito/Soviet Union, The Voyage of Life/Thomas Cole/Hudson River School
(3) King Midas
(4) Battle of Tours
(5) Luzon
(7) Gunpowder Plot/Guy Fawkes/Robert Catesby
(8) Western Sahara/Morocco/Polisario Front
(11) Andres Bonifacio/Philippines/William Howard Taft
(14) People's Will/Alexander II/Josef Pilsudski
(16) Mt. Aconcagua/Andes/Cotopaxi
(17) Blue Nile River/Lake Tana/Garden of Eden
(18) Alaskan Highway/Yukon/Fairbanks
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by setht » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:03 pm

I won't list all the questions I wrote, but I want to solicit feedback (good, bad, or ugly) on anything where people care to give it. I'm most interested in feedback on the DI versions of my questions, but I'm also interested in feedback on DII versions (where they exist).

I wrote most (or in a couple cases all) of the physics, astro, earth science, ancient history, myth, archaeology, physical anthropology, and linguistics; I also wrote a good chunk of the pop./org. bio, non-organic chem, visual fine art, anthropology, sociology, econ, psychology, and mixed questions. For most of these areas I didn't make a conscious, systematic effort to explore bold new visions of quizbowl (well, maybe a bit with a good chunk of the myth), but I'm sure there were questions sprinkled throughout that felt wacky.

If it'll help jog feedback, here are some of the tossups I wrote that I suspect felt extra wacky (hopefully in a good way, but again, I'm interested in any feedback): pressure (gradient) force [earth science], periodicity [physics], Charles Galton Darwin [physics], foraging [bio], Galapagos [bio], unimolecular [chem], Victorine Meurent [painting], tapestries [other visual], clients [Roman history], Adonis [myth], embassy to Achilles [myth], Masks of God [myth], Fortune magazine [sociology], game theory [econ], Mark Satterthwaite [econ], attributions [psychology], meaning [linguistics], corpus [linguistics].

I also had plenty of wacky bonuses, but I'm not going to try to list the (possibly) wackiest.

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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by setht » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:18 pm

Sulawesi Myzomela wrote:
Tees-Exe Line wrote:
Cheynem wrote:History was quite good; there were really some quite good ideas like "Joseph Cannon getting shitcanned."
Agreed that this was a good idea, but it should have said "description acceptable."
Can somebody post this question here to see what the answerline said exactly? I gave a description and it was accepted, but I got the impression that "Cannon Revolt" or something like that was the only answer on the page.
DI ICT round 5 wrote:This event began on a Wednesday, when Edgar Crumpacker requested consideration of a resolution on the census. After discussion of Joint Resolution 172 ended, George Norris introduced a resolution which, he claimed, was "privileged" under Article I ["one"], Section 5 of the Constitution. The (*) subject of this event, who represented Illinois, would be replaced by Champ Clark. For 10 points--name this 1910 event that saw limitations placed on the power of the namesake Republican Speaker of the House.



answer: _Cannon_ Revolt (accept equivalents that mention Joseph Gurney _Cannon_)
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Cheynem » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:31 pm

I said "Cannon...thing" and it got accepted.

I can't speak to a lot of those "wacky" questions Seth mentioned, but my teammate who has good and real classics knowledge had no problem with the "clients" tossup.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Muriel Axon » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:05 pm

In the other thread, people brought up the question on "To His Coy Mistress," which has a clue as follows:
In an essay on this poem's author, {T. S. Eliot} said that a "whole civilization resides in" four of its lines.
I haven't read this essay, but I looked it up on the Internet and I found the following:
We notice the high speed, the succession of concentrated images, each magnifying the original fancy. When this process has been carried to the end and summed up, the poem turns suddenly with that surprise which has been one of the most important means of poetic effect since Homer:

But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near,
And yonder all before us lie
Deserts of vast eternity.

A whole civilization resides in these lines:

Pallida Mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas,
Regumque turris. ...
It seems like the "whole civilization" line is referring to Horace 1.4, not "To His Coy Mistress." Am I completely misreading this?
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by ThisIsMyUsername » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:10 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:In the other thread, people brought up the question on "To His Coy Mistress," which has a clue as follows:
In an essay on this poem's author, {T. S. Eliot} said that a "whole civilization resides in" four of its lines.
I haven't read this essay, but I looked it up on the Internet and I found the following:
We notice the high speed, the succession of concentrated images, each magnifying the original fancy. When this process has been carried to the end and summed up, the poem turns suddenly with that surprise which has been one of the most important means of poetic effect since Homer:

But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near,
And yonder all before us lie
Deserts of vast eternity.

A whole civilization resides in these lines:

Pallida Mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas,
Regumque turris. ...
It seems like the "whole civilization" line is referring to Horace 1.4, not "To His Coy Mistress." Am I completely misreading this?
Yes, I think you are misreading this. As I understand it, Eliot is saying that a "whole civilization resides" in the four lines from "To His Coy Mistress", and then the colon introduces a quotation from Horace (and later, a quotation from Catullus) whose spirit Eliot believes is embodied by (or alluded to) in the four lines by Marvell. i.e. The colon means "what follows this colon is the civilization that I claim resides in the previous lines" rather than "what follows this colon are the lines in which I claim a civilization resides". By this interpretation, the clue is correct.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Jason Cheng » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:45 pm

The US v. Windsor tossup in Division II Packet 13 was, in my opinion, a little confusing. Vicki Jackson's participation in the oral arguments and subsequent use of the standing issue as one of her arguments was unique to Windsor. However, Hollingsworth v. Perry, Windsor's companion case, was decided on Article III standing grounds. Specifically, the Supreme Court ruled that Hollingsworth and co. failed to prove any injury and thus could not sue for redress on the federal level. On the other hand, the standing issue was more of a hashtag argument in US v. Windsor and not what the majority ruling rested on. Given that information and the fact that US v. Windsor (the federal DOMA case) and Hollingsworth v. Perry (the state amendment case) were heard concurrently, the rulings and opinions came out at the same time, and these two cases are equally significant, hearing that lead-in made me really reluctant to buzz until I heard the next two clues ("skim milk" and "Thea Spyer").

I'm wondering if a better lead-in could've been chosen that would eliminate the chances of someone mixing up their answers in their head.

Also, are there conversion stats for this tournament? If so, I'd like to see the conversion stats on US v. Windsor, Creek Civil War, and J.B. by Archibald MacLeish in Division II.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:47 pm

There will be, but we haven't finished compiling them yet.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:38 pm

I couldn't write many questions for this, but here are mine:

DI
2 - mtDNA/ubiquinone/retina
3 - Boris Godunov
8 - Mordred/Volsung/Tezcatlipoca
9 - Ediacaran/radula/mollusk
11- Capriccio espagnol/Rimsky-Korsakov/Alborada
16 - benzyne/aniline/ortho
16 - Respighi/Fountains of Rome/horn

DII
2 - mtDNA/retina/NADH
5 - Academic Festival/Brahms/Rakoczy
7 - horse/El Greco/Bronco Buster
8 - Sigmund/Mordred/Tezcatlipoca
9 - Ediacaran/mollusk/radula
16 - electrophilic/aniline/ortho
16 - Respighi/Fountains of Rome/horn
18 - chromosome/telomere/ubiquitin
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:09 am

Cheynem wrote:I can't speak to a lot of those "wacky" questions Seth mentioned, but my teammate who has good and real classics knowledge had no problem with the "clients" tossup.
Could I see this question? I confusedly gave a wrong answer, though I readily admit it's because I don't know much about clients other than that they had patrons -- what other answers were promptable or ruled out, and at what points?
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:37 am

ALGOL 68 wrote: these two cases are equally significant
From a legal standpoint, they absolutely are not. No precedent was set in the Prop 8 case at the Supreme Court level, and the case's impact only applied to one state. Had the court decided the case in a substantial way (similar to Loving v. Virginia) then it would have been a massively important case, but that didn't happen. The Windsor case is substantially more important on a national level, and has the real legal ramification of the federal government actually recognizing same-sex marriages in pretty much every way now.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by setht » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:25 am

RyuAqua wrote:
Cheynem wrote:I can't speak to a lot of those "wacky" questions Seth mentioned, but my teammate who has good and real classics knowledge had no problem with the "clients" tossup.
Could I see this question? I confusedly gave a wrong answer, though I readily admit it's because I don't know much about clients other than that they had patrons -- what other answers were promptable or ruled out, and at what points?
DI ICT round 14 wrote:Deception of these people was the only infraction punishable by dedication to the infernal gods in the Twelve Tables. These people were expected to begin their mornings with the ~salutatio~, after which they might receive the ~sportula~, a small cash gift from their counterparts. (*) Freedmen automatically had this status, becoming members of the ~gens~ of their benefactors. For 10 points--name these people who occupied the lower rung of a reciprocal relation in Roman society, contrasted with patrons.



answer: _client_s (or _cliens_ or _clientes_)
Obviously that's not a nuanced answerline; as best I could tell, the lead-in is uniquely specifying. I suppose the patrons also participated in the salutatio, but I hope the wording is more suggestive of the clients than the patrons.

If I missed good alternate answers or prompts (maybe freedmen?), let me know so I can fix it for future use.

Thanks,
-Seth
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Cheynem » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:29 am

Oh, that's what they are, I thought it was a question on Roman clients of prostitutes.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Jason Cheng » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:39 pm

GymnogypsCalifornianusWKU wrote:
ALGOL 68 wrote: these two cases are equally significant
From a legal standpoint, they absolutely are not. No precedent was set in the Prop 8 case at the Supreme Court level, and the case's impact only applied to one state. Had the court decided the case in a substantial way (similar to Loving v. Virginia) then it would have been a massively important case, but that didn't happen. The Windsor case is substantially more important on a national level, and has the real legal ramification of the federal government actually recognizing same-sex marriages in pretty much every way now.
Maybe I worded that incorrectly, then. The cases are equally important from a learning and current events point of view. I think it would be silly to simply learn US v. Windsor and ignore the case that was literally heard and released with it because knowing both is key to understanding the Court's reasoning and marriage doctrine on the federal and state (every state's) level. From a current events standpoint, it's quite difficult to find an article on one of the cases written last year from a major news source that didn't at least reference the other.

Which isn't to take away from the actual point of my original post, however, which was to seek opinions on whether or not the lead-in could have unnecessarily confused players by cluing peripheral reasoning from the case that mirrors the controlling opinion of a case that goes hand-in-hand with it.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Birdofredum Sawin » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:51 pm

I wasn't involved in the writing or editing of this Windsor tossup, but the criticism of it does not make sense to me. Here is the tossup:

During oral arguments in this case, Vicki Jackson claimed one respondent lacked Article III injury, and a comparison was made with "skim milk." It began when Thea Spyer's death caused $360,000 in {estate taxes} because the federal government did not recognize her Canadian (*) wedding to a {same-sex partner}. For 10 points--name this 2013 case in which the Supreme Court declared the Defense of Marriage Act {unconstitutional}.

answer: U(nited) S(tates) v. _Windsor_

Nothing in the first sentence of the tossup suggests "this is a 2013 case" or "this is a case relating to same-sex marriage" or anything of the kind that might potentially "confuse" people into thinking that the answer is Perry rather than Windsor. It just tells you "the answer is a case; here are two things about that case." Both of the first-sentence clues are, I believe, unique to Windsor (as Jackson appeared as amicus curiae counsel in that case, and had nothing to do with Perry, to my knowledge).

The only way you could be potentially confused by the first sentence into thinking that the answer was Perry, in my view, is if you heard "one respondent lacked Article III injury" and on that basis alone jumped to the conclusion that the answer ought to be Perry. But that would just show ignorance, as "lack of Article III injury" is a common argument that is made all the time. (Basically it's just the argument that "these people don't have standing, so the court lacks jurisdiction to hear this case.")
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Jason Cheng » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:26 pm

Then would it improve the tossup to clue some other sample of reasoning that isn't basically a hashtag argument common to the oral arguments of a large number of other significant cases? Because, as you said, the standing issue is rooted in the judicial section of the Constitution and thus easy to work into any Supreme Court case.

Also, I suppose the clue was selected because the standing question was so widely debated when these cases were still in controversy (around January 2013 until the rulings came out). For exanple, when I was following the issue, Justice Ginsberg (I think) made some earlier comments that drew widespread predictions that the Court would dodge the cases by resorting to standing and the jurisdiction problems. Nearly every justice as well gave some substantial commentary on the procedural question of Windsor. The clue was confusing to me because hearing "Article III injury" drew my attention to that controversy and tipped me off that either of those cases were being tossed up--in the heat of competition, the leadin didn't seem completely uniquely identifying by ideological, "here's what I'm referring to" terms, although I agree that it technically was.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Cody » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:15 pm

Pretty much every lead-in ever could be changed for zero to some improvement; this one was uniquely identifying and pointed to the case in question despite your assertions to the contrary and is likely fine. Pointless critiques of good or acceptable questions only dilute the value of the real critiques about extensive problems with portions of the set that have been presented in this forum.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Jason Cheng » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:35 pm

I did in fact state that I agree that the leadin on its face was uniquely identifying and was just trying to get analysis of the question from more experienced individuals but I see your point. I apologize and will reserve my discussion of a question for somewhere more appropriate than the containing set's specific question discussion thread.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Guile Island » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:19 pm

Could I see the bonus on the Battle of Lepanto? If I remember correctly, it said that Cervantes was killed during the battle, which is totally not right. He was merely injured.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Important Bird Area » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:34 pm

It did say that (and I have since corrected the error).
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by theMoMA » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:48 pm

I thought it just said that he was a "casualty" (which refers to injured as well as killed, last I checked).
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Important Bird Area » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:51 pm

The Division II version was the one with the error in it.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Valefor » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:49 am

Hi everyone. I wrote a good bit of the music for this year's ICT, as well as some various other odds and ends. I would welcome any feedback you have to give. Thanks!

Div I:
2: Un bel di | Mordecai (Regular Show)
3: stoning | John Marshal Harlan | Donation of Constantine
4: Martin V | Mahler/Songs of a Wayfarer/Berio
5: Rothko/Johnson/Feldman | ignition switch/Mary Barra/Toyota | Deborah/Barack/Jael
6: Death of Klinghoffer
7: Steve Reich/Different Trains/William Carlos Williams | Olivier Messiaen
8: Miles Edgeworth* | Margot Fonteyn | Soccer War | Gesualdo/madrigals/Palestrina
9: suites by Holst
10: sawm/Bahai/Apostles' Fast
11: Terry Riley
12: Beethoven's 7th | Dialogues of Carmelites/Poulec/La voix humane
13: Carl Nielsen | A Masked Ball/Renato/Marian Anderson
14: Gary Locke/Chen/Washington | Lecompton Constitution | Friedrich/O'Keeffe/Hovahannes | Athena Promachos/Phidias/chryselaphantine
15: John Coltrane | Boko Haram | Paradise/Coldplay/elephant
17: al-Tabari/hadith/isnad
18: A Mother/Gypsy Songs/Norman Bates | Alban Berg | I Got Rhythm/Brahms 4th/People United...

Div II (italics = converted from Div I):
1: Pedro I | Microsoft
2: Snake (Metal Gear Solid)
3: stoning
4: Mahler/Des Knaben Wunderhorn/Symphony of a Thousand
5: Deborah/Barack/ :bees: | GM/TARP/Toyota | Rothko/Johnson/Matisse | pyroclastic flow/Vesuvius/lahar
7: Clarence Darrow bonus | Reich/Williams/Hebron | Messiaen
9: antipope | Holst
10: Ramadan/Bahai/Shinto | United Kingdom (CE tossup) | War Powers Resolution
11: Malawi | Damien Hirst/skull/Tate Modern
12: North Korea (CE tossup)
13: US v. Windsor **
14: Satie/Picasso/Ballets Russe | China/Chen/Baucus
15: Paradise/Coldplay/Rihanna | Gutzon Borglum | Final Fantasy X/Kimahri Ronso/spear | John Coltrane
16: Discobolus/Myron/bronze
17: invocation of the muse/Aeneid/Lucan

* = Discussion in the other thread has generally indicated that the Edgeworth tossup was probably too hard. In retrospect, I agree.

** = I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but as the author of the Windsor tossup, I thought I'd offer a few comments on my thinking re: the leadin. As Andrew mentioned, lack of Article III injury is something that comes up in many cases before the court--as it did in Hollingsworth. However, the interesting thing about Windsor was that even though the Supreme Court asked the parties to address whether BLAG had Article III standing to appeal, all parties in the case agreed that they did. Thus, the Court had to appoint an amicus--Jackson--to argue the point that they didn't. So, the lead-in was uniquely identifying. That said, I concede that it could have possibly been improved if I framed that clue around the "Does the Supreme Court have jurisdiction to hear this case if the US admits it agrees with Windsor's argument?" issue instead. I don't mean to derail this thread further, so if you have further questions about this tossup, I would be happy to discuss them with you via PM. :)
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by vinteuil » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:22 am

I was a little bit confused by the "Suites by Holst" answerline, because I heard clues pertaining (I think?) to suites for both the numbered military band suites, and the non-numbered St. Paul's Suite. In general, I don't like the "genre by composer" answerline, because it could often just be "composer," and in this case (i.e. any time period past the Baroque) "suite" isn't really a reified genre; the content was fine otherwise.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Valefor » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:25 pm

vinteuil wrote:I heard clues pertaining (I think?) to suites for both the numbered military band suites
You did. :smile: Besides The Planets, every other work referenced in the question had the word "suite" in its title (First/Second Suites for Military Band, Japanese Suite, St. Paul's Suite). For what it's worth, there was an additional accept for "_suite_s for military _band_" (or something along those lines) for buzzes on the first few clues. That said, I hear your point about the confusing answer line, and looking at the converted question in the Div II set--which did just ask for "Holst"--I think on the whole the conversion ended up coming out better.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Cheynem » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:26 pm

I have no idea what the "Regular Show" is, and neither did anyone in the room when I heard that tossup, for what it's worth.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:30 pm

Cheynem wrote:I have no idea what the "Regular Show" is, and neither did anyone in the room when I heard that tossup, for what it's worth.
It's a really popular cartoon.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Cheynem » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:38 pm

Yeah, I mean, I"m sure it is--I just wonder if asking about the show and not a character from the show might be better, just as Phoenix Wright is a popular video game series but I'm not sure if we needed to ask about a character from it (lest I sound self-interested, I'll say this applies to any trash--there was a tossup in 2009 that I powered on a particular joke from The Office which seemed dubious, and NAQT seems to let these types of tossups through in its trash more times than needed--as in writing trash questions that assume greater familiarity with a trash genre than most of the audience has).
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:03 pm

Cheynem wrote:Yeah, I mean, I"m sure it is--I just wonder if asking about the show and not a character from the show might be better, just as Phoenix Wright is a popular video game series but I'm not sure if we needed to ask about a character from it (lest I sound self-interested, I'll say this applies to any trash--there was a tossup in 2009 that I powered on a particular joke from The Office which seemed dubious, and NAQT seems to let these types of tossups through in its trash more times than needed--as in writing trash questions that assume greater familiarity with a trash genre than most of the audience has).
People who aren't NBA fans would likely say the same thing about the tossup on the Slam Dunk contest. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by grapesmoker » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:35 pm

Can someone post that tossup on the Slam Dunk contest?
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Re: 2014 ICT: specific questions

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:36 pm

GymnogypsCalifornianusWKU wrote:
Cheynem wrote:Yeah, I mean, I"m sure it is--I just wonder if asking about the show and not a character from the show might be better, just as Phoenix Wright is a popular video game series but I'm not sure if we needed to ask about a character from it (lest I sound self-interested, I'll say this applies to any trash--there was a tossup in 2009 that I powered on a particular joke from The Office which seemed dubious, and NAQT seems to let these types of tossups through in its trash more times than needed--as in writing trash questions that assume greater familiarity with a trash genre than most of the audience has).
People who aren't NBA fans would likely say the same thing about the tossup on the Slam Dunk contest. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
The Slam Dunk Contest is a much, much easier answer than Miles Edgeworth or that avian thing...I don't see what's so complicated about this. You write interesting questions that you think the audience can meaningfully compete on, just like in every other category.

I'd actually support more trash answers that aren't on the most obvious answerline for their subject matter, but if you're going to do that, it should be from a widely-accessible topic (like "professional basketball") rather than a clear niche (like "currently-running children's shows").
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