COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by The Schopenhauer Power Hour » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:49 am

Now that the set is cleared, a few more specific comments--

I believe there's an incorrect clue in the tossup on The Sting in packet 2, when it mentions that a poker game is played on a ship. I don't *think* there's a ship at all in that movie (Edit: Per Wikipedia, the scene in question, at least, happens on a train), so I buzzed on one of the names at the beginning of the tossup and second guessed myself and negged.

The three most memorable examples of transparency on tossups that I recall were the Puppy Bowl (an MVP of a sporting event with just a first name and a "stadium" that measures 19'x10'), Pop-Tarts (a foodstuff formerly called "Country Squares" that also has a "frosted" variety), and Tommy John surgery (an action that causes athletes to miss seasons and is "most commonly undergone by baseball pitchers").

Maybe my lack of sports knowledge means that there could be other reasonable answers for the Tommy John tossup that I was just narrowmindedly not aware of, but the others seem like pretty egregious transparency issues, coming as they did in the first line of the question.

I only bring up these questions because I do think they are representative of a larger issue in the set, although again, I definitely enjoyed the tournament.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by Wynaut » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:58 am

Yep, a lot of the Internet distro was seriously tough. I remember saying "I'm a bit curious about what's in the impossible Internet distro for COTTAGE Bowl" in the IRC. Joelle responds with "Don't be." She was right.
Joelle wrote:Bonus 14 (pretty much just three incomprehensible [really, you had over two months to fix these typos!], tenuously-related hard parts )
Well, I can say that the Polandball "cannot into space" is intentional -- the non-Anglophone countries represented in Polandball all speak in broken English (sometimes with bits of their own language mixed in). The other two parts could definitely be improved, though.

Also, as someone who mostly plays through trash packets just to get a shot at the music questions -- it seemed a lot of the questions in that category had clues strewn together from randomly-picked lyrics (which made the tossups on "Chop Suey!", "Shake It Off," "Price Tag," etc. waaaay too easy, especially that early in the question) or Wikipedia. (like, what the heck is this?)
Round 5 wrote:The first single off its namesake album, this song was written to be an opening number for the band’s concerts. This frequently covered song has been played by bands including Dispatched, Stone, and Deep Sunshine.
I doubt that someone could connect the dots here (self-titled album + opening number + three random bands that covered it = The Final Countdown... somehow)

And while I appreciate the xkcd references, did we really need more than one bonus on it?

And while I also appreciate the reference to "Yee" in the dinosaurs tossup, is it really that well-known for it to be the second-to-last clue before "For 10 points"?

(I just had to come up with some other things besides "'Poland cannot into space' was completely intentional")
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by adosreme » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:59 am

Bartleby wrote:Like Aaron, I've seen links to things from "Polandball" on Facebook
This is exactly why I thought it was the easy part. Even if you didn't know that this was a subreddit, the clues should have pointed you towards Polandball in the first place (anecdotally speaking, I haven't ever heard of the subreddit or even seen the show/comic/whatever it actulally is but still thought it was clear enough to get this part)
The Schopenhauer Power Hour wrote:Pop-Tarts (a foodstuff formerly called "Country Squares" that also has a "frosted" variety)
For what it's worth, I thought that this might have been some kind of cereal like Shreddies or Mini-Wheats for a while. I didn't get it until the question mentioned a toaster.
odin_envy_me wrote:(except it was definitely Xtine Christine who got it)
Sure was! EDIT: Fixed a typo
Last edited by adosreme on Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by The Schopenhauer Power Hour » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:04 am

adosreme wrote:
The Schopenhauer Power Hour wrote:Pop-Tarts (a foodstuff formerly called "Country Squares" that also has a "frosted" variety)
For what it's worth, I thought that this might have been some kind of cereal like Shreddies or Mini-Wheats for a while.
That's fair! I think some of this is the "hindsight is 20/20" thing, where since I buzzed early and happened to get it right, of course it was transparent; and maybe that's not entirely the case.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by Taper or die. Can you do any less? » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:12 am

Cape Fear wrote:(like, what the heck is this?)
Round 5 wrote:The first single off its namesake album, this song was written to be an opening number for the band’s concerts. This frequently covered song has been played by bands including Dispatched, Stone, and Deep Sunshine.
I doubt that someone could connect the dots here (self-titled album + opening number + three random bands that covered it = The Final Countdown... somehow)
Yeah, I agree with this...I distinctly remember this TU, going "None of this is descriptive...".
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by grapesmoker » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:25 am

Cheynem wrote:Unlike Jerry, I actually have written and played a good deal of trash tournaments.

You can write good questions on any sort of consumer product, but in my experience, they typically tend to feature clues about their usage within popular culture ("In the film Mr. Deeds, the title character goes to this restaurant..."), their advertisements ("In an ad for this product, Megan Mulally wore a tuxedo"), or other interesting sort of trivia ("Chuck Yeager once threw one these products at J. Edgar Hoover"). In general, I think people do not know the history of corporations that make products they make unless it's interesting, and would find it either hard/difficult/uninteresting to just sort of identify products they use based on general descriptions. Writing a question on Subway (or deodorant or even tampons) that uses the above sort of clues seems fine to me, writing a question that asks you to just name types of Subway sandwiches does not, if that makes sense.
I agree with this.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by Taper or die. Can you do any less? » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:26 am

Cheynem wrote:Unlike Jerry, I actually have written and played a good deal of trash tournaments.

You can write good questions on any sort of consumer product, but in my experience, they typically tend to feature clues about their usage within popular culture ("In the film Mr. Deeds, the title character goes to this restaurant..."), their advertisements ("In an ad for this product, Megan Mulally wore a tuxedo"), or other interesting sort of trivia ("Chuck Yeager once threw one these products at J. Edgar Hoover"). In general, I think people do not know the history of corporations that make products they make unless it's interesting, and would find it either hard/difficult/uninteresting to just sort of identify products they use based on general descriptions. Writing a question on Subway (or deodorant or even tampons) that uses the above sort of clues seems fine to me, writing a question that asks you to just name types of Subway sandwiches does not, if that makes sense.
I don't disagree with this.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by grapesmoker » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:28 am

odin_envy_me wrote: I think I've actually only played 2 trash tournaments in my entire life, but, at practice and such, I've seen TUs on Windex (that admittedly had music clues), a bonus on orange juice brands, a bonus on methods of shaving, plenty of questions on brands primarily based on commercials, and TUs on Subways, the Quarter Pounder With Cheese, Taco Bell, etc.
All depends on how the question is written; see Mike's post. If a question on the quarter pounder with cheese contains pop culture clues like the bit from Pulp Fiction, that's fine. If it's just "this sandwich is made with X and costs Y" then that's stupid and you shouldn't write those questions. Likewise, if your tossup on Taco Bell is about its corporate history and CEO, then it's probably a terrible question.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:04 pm

The Schopenhauer Power Hour wrote: Tommy John surgery (an action that causes athletes to miss seasons and is "most commonly undergone by baseball pitchers").

Maybe my lack of sports knowledge means that there could be other reasonable answers for the Tommy John tossup that I was just narrowmindedly not aware of, but the others seem like pretty egregious transparency issues, coming as they did in the first line of the question.

I only bring up these questions because I do think they are representative of a larger issue in the set, although again, I definitely enjoyed the tournament.
I didn't play this tournament, but if clues about its an action that causes athletes to miss seasons and is "most commonly undergone by baseball players" were in the first half of the tossup, I would have been very unhappy if I had played this set, as those are literally the two best known things about undergoing Tommy John surgery. I would need to see the tossup in order to really make a judgment though-what round was it in?
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by The Schopenhauer Power Hour » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:53 pm

The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:
The Schopenhauer Power Hour wrote: Tommy John surgery (an action that causes athletes to miss seasons and is "most commonly undergone by baseball pitchers").

Maybe my lack of sports knowledge means that there could be other reasonable answers for the Tommy John tossup that I was just narrowmindedly not aware of, but the others seem like pretty egregious transparency issues, coming as they did in the first line of the question.

I only bring up these questions because I do think they are representative of a larger issue in the set, although again, I definitely enjoyed the tournament.
I didn't play this tournament, but if clues about its an action that causes athletes to miss seasons and is "most commonly undergone by baseball players" were in the first half of the tossup, I would have been very unhappy if I had played this set, as those are literally the two best known things about undergoing Tommy John surgery. I would need to see the tossup in order to really make a judgment though-what round was it in?
It was in packet 6. The full tossup:
16. Jose Rijos reportedly had this done to him 5 times, causing him to miss 5 seasons between 1995 and 2001. Though most commonly undergone by baseball pitchers, Jake Delhomme underwent this procedure in 2007. Eric Gange is the only man to win a Cy Young after having this done, and Dr. Lewis Yocum claimed this technique to be 90% successful overall as of 2012. Pioneered by Dr. Frank Jobe (JOE-BE), for 10 points name this surgery to repair the Ulnar Collateral Ligament, named for a star Dodgers pitcher.
ANSWER: Tommy John Surgery
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by 1.82 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:02 pm

That's a question that could do with some copyediting; the two pitchers mentioned are named José Rijo and Éric Gagné, respectively. In general, though, I enjoyed the sports questions. The tossup on the nickname "Kid" struck me as a fun idea.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by 1992 in spaceflight » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:13 pm

The Schopenhauer Power Hour wrote:
The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi wrote:
The Schopenhauer Power Hour wrote: Tommy John surgery (an action that causes athletes to miss seasons and is "most commonly undergone by baseball pitchers").

Maybe my lack of sports knowledge means that there could be other reasonable answers for the Tommy John tossup that I was just narrowmindedly not aware of, but the others seem like pretty egregious transparency issues, coming as they did in the first line of the question.

I only bring up these questions because I do think they are representative of a larger issue in the set, although again, I definitely enjoyed the tournament.
I didn't play this tournament, but if clues about its an action that causes athletes to miss seasons and is "most commonly undergone by baseball players" were in the first half of the tossup, I would have been very unhappy if I had played this set, as those are literally the two best known things about undergoing Tommy John surgery. I would need to see the tossup in order to really make a judgment though-what round was it in?
It was in packet 6. The full tossup:
16. Jose Rijos reportedly had this done to him 5 times, causing him to miss 5 seasons between 1995 and 2001. Though most commonly undergone by baseball pitchers, Jake Delhomme underwent this procedure in 2007. Eric Gange is the only man to win a Cy Young after having this done, and Dr. Lewis Yocum claimed this technique to be 90% successful overall as of 2012. Pioneered by Dr. Frank Jobe (JOE-BE), for 10 points name this surgery to repair the Ulnar Collateral Ligament, named for a star Dodgers pitcher.
ANSWER: Tommy John Surgery
Thanks, Logan. So yeah, I would not have been very happy with this tossup had I played this tournament. Like I said earlier, the fact that the surgery requires you to miss a season and is undergone mostly by baseball players are two of the best-known things about Tommy John surgery-those clues should probably have been moved to before the FTP line. There could probably be ways to include clues about current attempts to combat the rash of Tommy John surgeries in baseball, as well-Tom Verducci wrote an article about it in Sports Illustrated a year or two ago, if I remember correctly.

Mike, you're much more experienced at writing trash than I am-how would you recommend writing sports tossups?
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by minusfive » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:03 pm

Cheynem wrote: "In the film Mr. Deeds, the title character goes to this restaurant"..."In an ad for this product, Megan Mulally wore a tuxedo"..."Chuck Yeager once threw one [of] these products at J. Edgar Hoover"
My search for all of these things did not turn up the result. What are the answer-lines, I am dying to know. PLEASE!
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by Amizda Calyx » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:57 pm

the third garrideb wrote: I didn't play COTTAGE Bowl, so I had to track down this much-maligned feminine hygiene bonus, and in terms of its structure as a quizbowl question, it seems okay. (There is an easy, middle, and hard part; who honestly has never heard of Tampax?) If this was the only female-oriented question in the tournament, that would be weird, but I think as it is, what might be weird or offensive here is mostly the fact that it's about feminine hygiene. Is quizbowl a place to ask about diva cups? Should it be? In one of the first trash tournaments I played, one of my teammates wrote a tossup on jockstraps and no one was weirded out by that, though I personally was surprised by that choice of answerline (and amused). Are jockstraps universally a more "normal" or "comfortable" topic than tampons?

I think female trash (and perhaps female academic topics, too) split into that which is female-associated but has a wider audience (e.g. The Good Wife, Mean Girls, etc.) and that which is consumed primarily by women. The former is readily asked about in quizbowl (partly because quizbowl itself has a wider audience) while the latter when it comes up is usually thought of as "trashy trash". Like I said, I didn't play this tournament, but I would have loved to hear, for example, that tossup on HelloGiggles. I don't go to quizbowl events expecting to hear stuff like that, and whatever issues people might have had with execution in this set, I think the effort to write about things in a way that ignores this idea of "female trash" versus "'stupid' female trash" is laudible.

And, as Faith said, quizbowl tournaments do have this power to assert what is "important" simply through what topics they give space to. If we can be thrilled about uterus questions in academic tournaments, surely we can be less restrictive about what female trash should have a place here as well.
I think everyone complaining about the tampon question is complaining about the pretty horrendous execution of it, not the fact that it was asking about feminine hygiene per se. A tampon question that was well-written and actually tested knowledge would be welcomed just as much as a good question on jockstraps. And normal quizbowlers would object just as strongly to a terrible jockstrap question that used only clues from jockstrap corporate history. I think people are focusing too much on the fact that, on the surface, there appeared to be more "women-related" questions without actually considering how well the answers and clues actually test depth of knowledge in a quizbowl-appropriate way. There is a big difference between a well-written question on a topic primarily consumed by women and a question unthoughtfully hashed together with tangential, unhelpful clues on a subject some dude (or clueless girl) thinks (other) women like. This is also not a problem limited to the "female-friendly" questions or even to this tournament; on the whole, a lot of inexperienced (and experienced!) writers who are unfamiliar with the distinction between pub trivia-type clues and quizbowl clues make the mistake of assuming anything related to a specific topic is reasonable to ask about. In this case, non-notable corporate trivia was used instead of fleshed-out clues on things people would actually know or care about--for example, a bonus part on U by Kotex Click with clues about the bright colors and black packaging, and the irritation some women on youtube have expressed with their marketing tactics, would have been much more knowable.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:38 pm

Or the fact that Kotex's logo includes a red punctuation mark! Now that's a memorable branding clue.
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Presented without comment:
Packet 12 wrote:[10] According to Urban Dictionary, this infamous Pokémon related term is defined as “When you light a girls pubes on fire, put it out with your jizz then flap your arms and say "You don't have enough badges to train me!”
ANSWER: Charizarding (accept word forms)
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Re: COTTAGE Bowl - Global Announcement

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:34 pm

Sorry to come to this thread so late, but I just stumbled on it again since the set cleared. My major beef was a toss-up that began with some clue about how in this sport the term "bonking" is used to describe succumbing to fatigue, at which I buzzed in with a rambling sentence on the order of "Well, that's distance running, so the marathon, or ultra-marathoning, or just running. What the hell do they want?" The answer was the triathlon, I think. But dude, all endurance sports use the verb "to bonk." Weak.
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