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A blast from the past ...

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:49 am
by Baron Jacobi
This recently came to my attention: Adam Fine's list of the top 100 players, c. 1998. Who will dare compile a similar list today?

Enjoy,

the Baron

-----------

100.  Shawn Pickrell
99.  Zeke Berdichevsky
98.  Adam Humphreys (SC)
97.  Brad Harris
96.  Emily Moore (OK)
95.  Shawn Askew
94.  Mark Coen
93.  Dom Ricci
92.  Alan Taber (Stan)
91.  Steve Schroeder (Vandy)
90.  Mike Zarren
89.  Willie Keller
88.  Julie Stahlhut
87.  Ed Cohn
86.  Fred Bush
85.  Vishnu Jejjala
84.  Ken LaSala
83.  Bobby Shepard
82.  Karl Schmidt
81.  Ken ?? (BYU)
80.  Richard Mason (CalTech)
79.  Rachel Marshak
78.  Andy Zimdars (CMU)
77.  Bronson Messer
76.  Jeff Newman
75.  Jen Wadsack
74.  David Levinson
73.  Jeff Boulier
72.  Tim Young
71.  Dave Vacca
70.  Hormuzd Katki
69.  Steve Wang
68.  Phil O'Donoghue
67.  Dwight Kidder
66.  Mark Staloff
65.  John Harris
64.  Greg Sorenson (trash)
63.  Pat Friel
62.  Carol Herin-J
61.  Nick Meyer (Berk)
60.  Matt Baker
59.  Chris Goheen
58.  Lorin Burte
57.  Alex Mouat
56.  Jeff Stewart
55.  Ravin Garg
54.  Long Nguyen
53.  Pat Matthews
52.  John Edwards
51.  Peter McCorquodale
50.  T.C. Ford
49.  James Rogers
48.  John Nam
47.  Gourab Bhattarcharjee
46.  Rory Molinari
45.  Laura Cleveland (ex-NCSU)
44.  Larry Sorrels
43.  Haggai Elitzur
42.  Guy Jordan
41.  Matt Colvin
40.  Phil Huang
39.  Christine Moritz
38.  Dan Fuller
37.  Steve Lin
36.  Tom Drucker
35.  Rick Grimes
34.  Benoy Chacko
33.  David Frazee
32.  Patrick Brannon
31.  Brian Rostron
30.  Julie Singer
29.  Jim Bales
28.  Eric Hillemann
27.  Adam Kemezis
26.  Dave Goodman
25.  Martin Poteralski
24.  Eric Bell
23.  Jason Hong
22.  Robert Trent
21.  James Anderson
20.  Arthur Fleming
19.  Jesse Molesworth
18.  Victor Rosenberg
17.  Roger Lee
16.  Dave Hamilton
15.  Marc Swisdak
14.  Mike Musgrove
13.  R. Robert Hentzel
12.  Eric Tentarelli
11.  Jon Saluta
10.  Robert Margolis
9.  Mike Starsinic
8.  Jason King
7.  John Sheahan
6.  Ramesh Kannapan
5.  Jeff Johnson
4.  Jim Dendy
3.  Andrew Yaphe
2.  Don Windham
1.  Tom Waters

Re: A blast from the past ...

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:54 am
by Golden Tiger 86
Baron Jacobi wrote:81.  Ken ?? (BYU)
Is that possibly this guy :kenj:

Re: A blast from the past ...

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:03 am
by Leo Wolpert
Golden Tiger 86 wrote:
Baron Jacobi wrote:81. Ken ?? (BYU)
Is that possibly this guy :kenj:
Actually, it's Kenny Sanchez, the ADD kid I knew in 4th grade who beat Star Fox on "hard" without ever dying.

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:07 am
by Matt Weiner
It's somewhat amusing that a lot of those people are still playing.

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:14 pm
by mps4a_mps4a
and that some of them apparantly got quite a lot better:

99. Zeke Berdichevsky
86. Fred Bush

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:02 pm
by I'm a goff (in case you couldn't tell)
I may be mistaken (in which case I'll let those of you attending abuse me while I snore my way through the Tony Parker Open on Saturday), but do I count 6 Marylanders in the top 20?

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:08 pm
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
Somebody had a lot of free time in 1998.

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:55 pm
by suds1000
Who's Don Windham...i.e. where did he go to school and what did he win and all that stuff? Anybody know, or should I just go ask Dom?

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:12 pm
by Scipio
Don was a standout from Berry College and the University of Tennessee in the late seventies and early eighties. Not a lot of records exist from back then, but apparently he was insanely good back in the day (he was supposed to have won every direct matchup between he and waters until 1999) and was on a team that won a bunch of Tennessee Masters tournaments (back when they drew everybody who was anybody). From those who have seen them all play in their prime, the consesus was that Tom was supposed to be better than Andrew (having seen them both myself, I can verify this much; you have to factor in the differences in the way the game is played, but as dominant as Andrew is now Tom was much moreso then), and Don was supposed to have been more fearsome than Tom (that I cannot corroborate; when I saw Don playing he was in his decline).

Hope that helps.

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:21 pm
by Chris Frankel
Apparently this Don Windham character was so legendary that he even merits his own Wikipedia entry. If anyone wants to write a tossup on the Carper award, you know where to start!

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:04 pm
by Scipio
As awesome as that article is, and all, it's also wrong: Don played at the Tennessee Masters in 1996. I know, because not only was I there, I was on the worst team at the tournament and lost to Don's team (Jim Dendy, Jason King, and Robert Meredith were also on it) by something like 525-40. It was, however, a great experience: back then, players who would get tossups on four words were much rarer than they are now, so seeing not one but three players doing that was an awesome thing. It definitely showed me how the game was supposed to be played.

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:18 pm
by suds1000
Isn't it possible, Seth, that today's players are just as good as those of years gone by, and merely that the exponentially higher question difficulty prevents such feats from occurring on a day-to-day basis? I'd expect to see a lot more four-word buzzes on a Goethe tossup than one on Heinrich von Kleist, for instance.

Just looking back at a few packets from when Waters would have been playing (the few I can find, that is) indicates that the leadins for those tossups are now used regularly as tossup answers, and some are now considered far too easy for the Nationals level...seems like it'd be significantly harder to make those ridiculous buzzes nowadays.

Now, Seth, I understand that you're like infinity years old and have a great nostalgia for the good ol' days and everything, but don't let it cloud your judgment :grin:

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:36 pm
by Scipio
Isn't it possible, Seth, that today's players are just as good as those of years gone by, and merely that the exponentially higher question difficulty prevents such feats from occurring on a day-to-day basis? I'd expect to see a lot more four-word buzzes on a Goethe tossup than one on Heinrich von Kleist, for instance.
Umm, yes, I think that's not only a possibility but a probability. The top players today are, in a way that they were not back then, not only the most likely to get a tossup, but also to get it obscenely early; in fact, in the post to which I assume you are replying, I even said so:
... back then, players who would get tossups on four words were much rarer than they are now, so seeing not one but three players doing that was an awesome thing.
(emphasis added)

There is no doubt that packets have gotten more difficult as the years have gone on, but the amazing thing is that not only have the best teams grown accustomed to answer even the hardest of questions, but have learned to get them at astonishingly early points: unlike in the past, nowadays the conjecture is less "I wonder if anyone will possibly get this Ivo Andric tossup" and more along the lines of "I wonder how many words in someone will get this Ivo Andric tossup". What I was trying to indicate is that Don et al. were doing then what I had never seen even the best of that era do, and it was marvelous to watch.

Re: A blast from the past ...

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:18 am
by QuizbowlPostmodernist
While it may be difficult to compare older players to more recent players, given the change in question difficulty, it is still true that old school players prepared themselves for the particular difficulty of their day and would probably prepare themselves the way that more modern players do if they had been born more recently.

It's before my time, but I have been told that the argument back in the day was over whether Tom Waters or Don Windham was a better player. Some pointed to Waters' PPG and ability to win tournaments solo, while others said that Don Windham was a consummate team player who got his teammates to play better. Someone, I forget who, also said that Waters played solo often because people didn't want to play with him and held that as a mark in Windham's favor.

Re: A blast from the past ...

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:36 am
by steven-lamp
Leo Wolpert wrote:
Golden Tiger 86 wrote:
Baron Jacobi wrote:81. Ken ?? (BYU)
Is that possibly this guy :kenj:
Actually, it's Kenny Sanchez, the ADD kid I knew in 4th grade who beat Star Fox on "hard" without ever dying.
Mormons play Star Fox?!?!?

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:20 pm
by Larry Horse
mps4a_mps4a wrote:and that some of them apparantly got quite a lot better:

99. Zeke Berdichevsky
86. Fred Bush
Tell me about it, Zeke must be at at least 94 by now.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:03 pm
by sobek22
I always found it amazing that a list I sent to one person seven years ago has "been around the block" as much as it has. That'll teach me. :P

My criteria at the time was that the list was composed of the 100 best players I had "seen play" (as of summer 1998). Looking back, some of the Marylanders are overrated a bit... some of it my bias of seeing what they could do so often. But many of them were great players whose numbers were kept down by playing together.

Ken (BYU) is in fact :kenj: As awesome a J! player as he is, he was a very good but not great quizbowler. He led a balanced BYU team in the mid-late 90s, that was about the 10th best team in the country.

In any case, many of those choices have held up, but some look pretty weak at this point.

-Adam

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:12 pm
by Chris Frankel
Well in light of ACF and ICT, would anyone like to try his chances at posting a ranking list of current active college players (maybe just top 25 or 30 or whatever arbitrary cutoff)? I may throw out something after ICT stats come out, but in the meantime it would be interesting to hear the general discussion from people who have experienced both tournaments and/or a significant share of circuit play in the past year.

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:20 pm
by Larry Horse
Chris Frankel wrote:Well in light of ACF and ICT, would anyone like to try his chances at posting a ranking list of current active college players (maybe just top 25 or 30 or whatever arbitrary cutoff)? I may throw out something after ICT stats come out, but in the meantime it would be interesting to hear the general discussion from people who have experienced both tournaments and/or a significant share of circuit play in the past year.
I accept your challenge Mr. Frankel. I have experienced both tournaments (Div II champions bitch!) and based on my significant share of circuit play I humbly offer the following list:

#20 ... That angry kid from Rochester
#19 ... That bearded loser who is also from Rochester
#18 ... That guy from Berkeley who talks too loudly
#17 ... That fat guy from -- I forget where he was from. You know, the fat one
#16 ... That guy from Harvard who's wrong a lot
#15 ... That girl from -- oh wait, I must have the wrong board. Won't be no girls in this top 20, yo. So make it that guy from Texas A&M with the ears
#14 ... That guy from Illinois who thinks he's good or something
#13 ... That guy from Michigan who gets real surly
#12 ... That other guy from Illinois who actually is kind of good
#11 ... That big lovable bear of a man from Yale
#10 ... The crunkest man in tha game, Chicago's own Seth Teitler
#9 ... That guy from Berkeley who cries about science questions
#8 ... That other guy from Berkeley who keeps his mouth shut most of the time
#7 ... That guy from Michigan with the hats and the floppy hair
#6 ... Dwight Kidder
#5 ... That guy from Princeton who's supposed to be angry but mostly looks like his puppy just died. Oh that's you Mr. Frankel
#4 ... That old guy from Chicago who made R. cry
#3 ... That other guy from Michigan who's got his shit together
#2 ... That other old guy from Chicago. You know, the Indian one
#1 ... The sexiest man in the game. You know who I'm talking about -- his name rhymes with "Fat Wiener"

Peace.

Pericles

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:57 pm
by Larry Horse
I forgot about that guy who used to be at Michigan. You know, the ho blasta. He's definitely better than that angry kid from Rochester.

Mea culpa,

Pericles

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:22 pm
by Theory Of The Leisure Flask
Larry Horse wrote:I accept your challenge Mr. Frankel. I have experienced both tournaments (Div II champions bitch!) and based on my significant share of circuit play I humbly offer the following list:
Which I consider myself both honored and flattered to not be on.

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:34 am
by Larry Horse
benjaminthedonkey wrote:
Larry Horse wrote:I accept your challenge Mr. Frankel. I have experienced both tournaments (Div II champions bitch!) and based on my significant share of circuit play I humbly offer the following list:
Which I consider myself both honored and flattered to not be on.
Oh but you are on the list, my corpulent friend:
Larry Horse wrote:#17 ... That fat guy from -- I forget where he was from. You know, the fat one
Though now that I see that you're an infinitive-splitting ho bag, I hereby remove you from the list. Now there are only 19, bitches.

with Love,

Pericles

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:39 am
by mattreece
What do you have against splitting infinitives, Pericles? To recklessly impose such rules on language is just dumb.

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:41 am
by Matt Weiner
Dear Pericles,

Shut up.

Love, everyone.

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:56 am
by Rothlover
Matt Weiner wrote:Dear Pericles,

Shut up.

Love, everyone.
Bless you kind sir.

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:26 am
by Larry Horse
Matt Weiner wrote:Dear Pericles,

Shut up.

Love, everyone.
You're like that girl on Elimidate who's got no sense of humor about anything, but who's so damn hot that she wins anyway. Matt Weiner, you've won my heart.

your Friend,

Pericles

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:22 am
by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox
Larry Horse wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:Dear Pericles,

Shut up.

Love, everyone.
You're like that girl on Elimidate who's got no sense of humor about anything, but who's so damn hot that she wins anyway. Matt Weiner, you've won my heart.

your Friend,

Pericles
Peri,

I'm gonna cut off your testicles and give them to Leo so he can be a basketball player. I'll prevent you from polluting the genepool the way you constantly pollute every single thread with this inane bullshit.

And if you really want Matt Weiner, stop talking big and knock him out and rape him in the bathroom at the next ICT just to get it over with like a normal person.

Sean

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:57 am
by Mr. Larry Horse
Yeah, the Larry Horse name got banned, and I suppose some of the more uptight, anti-free speech, and humorless members of this board would say with good reason. But let me say that just because Larry signs all his posts as Pericles doesn't mean that Pericles is actually posting them. Larry is his own man, but he is very close to Pericles (although some white people say he'd like to be even closer with Matt, and he is hurt at what Matt did by banning him) and is often too shy to post under his own name. However, let me say that I stand behind everything Larry said, and as such have adopted the moniker "Mr. Larry Horse" in honor of the free speech martyr.

Anyway, I know for a fact that, while we may be in the minority, those of us who realize that quiz bowl is a game and who have at least an inkiling of a sense of humor realize that a You Pick 'Em between Ed Cohn and Dwight Kidder or a list poking fun at 20 of the top players is much more entertaining read and worthwhile use of a post than a 500 word 30th post bitching about some minute detail of ACF Nationals that no one reads anyway and is just some one mentally masturbating to how they could make this GAME a little more anal retentive (this post is a good example of said mental masturbation).

Also, I would never slip Matt a rufie and rape him in the bathroom, because I'm too much of a gentleman for that and because I kind of had in mind that, as they say in my country, he'd be the one knocking at my back door.



With Love,

Pericles "El Culorojo"

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:01 am
by Matt Weiner
I banned you for trolling the high school area with explicit (and irrelevant) discussion of random sex acts. We're adults here in the college section and can each tell you to fuck off on our own, but try to act with some common sense towards minors.

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:16 am
by smithson
I'm not really sure what all the fuss has been about. These posts have seemed at least sort of funny, though from the way people have been reacting you'd think Pericles, or whoever, had killed someone. The nice thing about this board is you don't have to read the posts if you're not interested in them. Nobody's twisting anybody's arm here.

That said, I was wondering if anybody was interested in pursuing some more serious consideration of this topic. For example, is there any consensus right now about who the best players are? Are the top players at NAQT also the top players at other formats like ACF? And if there is consensus about the top players, is that unusual? In the past, did discussions of this subject ever arrive at consensus? I really don't know, so if anybody has a better sense of these things please enlighten me. If there is more agreement now than before about who the best players are, does that say anything about changes in the game? Like now the questions are harder, so perhaps the better players are more clearly dominant -- I'm just throwing out a guess here. Or have people just developed a better idea of what it means to be good at the game, though the game itself has remained the same? Or are people just not interested in pursuing this kind of debate any more?

I don't know if those are good questions. But maybe they can give people something to discuss for real, instead of attacking each other.

ST

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:02 am
by Mr. Larry Horse
Matt Weiner wrote:I banned you for trolling the high school area with explicit (and irrelevant) discussion of random sex acts. We're adults here in the college section and can each tell you to fuck off on our own, but try to act with some common sense towards minors.
That sounds like a more legit reason. No more posts about sucking balls then in the high school section.

And what the f@ck is trolling?

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:45 pm
by grapesmoker
Mr. Larry Horse wrote: And what the f@ck is trolling?
It's what you're doing. And you're not funny either, which is rally the problem. See, Ryan Westbrook is funny so he can post all sorts of crazy crap and get away with it. You're just annoying.

Jerry

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:24 pm
by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox
Mr. Larry Horse wrote:
Also, I would never slip Matt a rufie and rape him in the bathroom, because I'm too much of a gentleman for that and because I kind of had in mind that, as they say in my country, he'd be the one knocking at my back door.



With Love,

Pericles "El Culorojo"
Dude, having shared a hotel suite w/ Matt and work my sexiest negligee of flannel pajama pants, I can say, as the sexiest man of that ilk in qb that there was nothing doing. You'll have to be more proactive. Also seek therapy.

Sean

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:25 am
by Mr. Larry Horse
grapesmoker wrote: See, Ryan Westbrook is funny so he can post all sorts of crazy crap and get away with it. You're just annoying.

Jerry
I guess that "I hate black people" is funnier than anything I've written. Good call, Jerry.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:47 am
by No Sollositing On Premise
Mr. Larry Horse wrote:I guess that "I hate black people" is funnier than anything I've written. Good call, Jerry.
No. His opinions on gender issues in quizbowl are funnier than anything you've ever written. Actually, pretty much everyone on the board has posted something or other funnier than anything you've ever written.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:49 am
by solonqb
Mr. Larry Horse wrote:
I guess that "I hate black people" is funnier than anything I've written. Good call, Jerry.
Actually, it is.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:54 am
by Mr. Larry Horse
And to all those who would argue that I am not funny, I will hereby disprove you by making a joke.

One Sodium atom came up to another and said "I think we have been ionized." The second one asked him if he was certain of this, and the first one replied...PENINIS.

See, its funny because you expected me to say "I'm positive", but instead I said penis, which is a funny word.

In fact, my good friend Melville Fuller has just confirmed that it is funny.
Image
"Yes, my good friend Mr. Larry Horse is funny, and I am hereby ruling that calling him a troll is not protected by the 14th amendment."

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:08 am
by Mr. Larry Horse
solonqb wrote: Actually, it is.
Maybe you should spend less time posting here, where you clearly do not know of what you speak, and spend more time surfing your favorite website.

And by your favorite website, I mean http://www.letsallrapekitchens.com

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:29 am
by PeterTheRoman
Mr. Larry Horse, or should I call you Pericles, if that really is your name, I have to say you really aren't funny. You just make no sense. Your post might have been funny if you had managed to spell the word "penis" correctly, but given that you have even less of a brain than the recently cremated Terri Schaivo, you don't impress me in the slightest.

Also, I was expecting your link to link to a real site, or at least to have some reference to SOMETHING. Like if you were trying to refer to Mr. Solonqb's screenname, then you should have said let's all rape kittens.org. Because that would be funny.

Respectfully yours,

Blake Grunwald
South Florida Quizbowl

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:13 am
by grapesmoker
Mr. Larry Horse wrote: I guess that "I hate black people" is funnier than anything I've written. Good call, Jerry.
Back before Matt eliminated it, this would've gone to AHAN, where it clearly belongs. I'm not going to discuss things with you, but I'd like to make two observations:

1) Unless Pericles was lying to me over email, there's a very good chance that you're not Pericles but also a very good chance that you're from the Chicago team.

2) I've met a fair number of people from the Chicago team, and not a single one of them was such a dick in person. So that leaves a couple of possibilities. Either you're someone I haven't met, perhaps some jerk the club keeps locked away in the basement like an embarrassing relative. Or you're someone I have met who is too timid to be a jerk in person but who is quite brave when he (or she, let's cover all the bases) is anonymous on the Intarweb.

Honestly, I just don't understand what you're trying to accomplish here. You're clearly trolling, but your trolling isn't funny and people have told you so. Are you just trying to make a nuissance of yourself for no reason or is there some other non-comedic motivation behind this (since you've so clearly failed at comedy)? I would appreciate knowing which flavor of troll you are.

Jerry

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:38 am
by Mr. Larry Horse
While I have had my chuckle at all the recent results that have come about as a result of my letting my password be known at practice (I suppose it was a sort of challenge to see what sort of funny, enfant terrible posts could be posted from behind the anonymous face of Larry Horse), this has led to Larry being a little bit more confrontational as of late that I would have liked. I'm all about the fun and we all have foibles and pretentions that deserve to be hoisted by their own petard, but I feel that stopping it before it gets too meanspirited wouldn't be the greatest injustice that could befall mankind. So, I have changed the Larry Horse password for now and Larry will go out to stud for the time being. However, don't be surprised if the Dwight Kidder trashionals champion picture shows up from time to time when Mr Horse deems it appropriate.

With Love,

Pericles

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:31 pm
by zwtipp
You see, that joke of yours would have been funny if you had actually spelled penis correctly (rather than peninis). Since this seems to be the limit of your intellectual potential, you have no future in comedy or trolling seeing as how both require a small sliver of intelligence. Therefore, shut the hell up.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:02 pm
by PeterTheRoman
Unbelievable.

Blake Grunwald
South Florida Quiz Bowl

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:08 pm
by No Rules Westbrook
Anyway, let me say that I'm flattered that you would use me as the standard-bearer for the comedic pursuit of free-speech, though my lukewarm cynical racism did get me warned. A shame, if I knew I only had one chance to be offensively and comedically racist, I'd have done better than that amateurish effort.


Don't like it? Don't read it, people.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:09 pm
by PeterTheRoman
Yeah, use RoundUp instead.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:15 pm
by Ray
PeterTheRoman wrote:Yeah, use RoundUp instead.
FUNNAY


Here are my Top 20 rankings, which are based on my own limited experience.

1. Andrew Yaphe
2. Subash Maddipoti
3. Ezequiel Berdichevsky
4. Adam Kemezis
5. Matt Weiner
6. Jeff Hoppes
7. Seth Teitler
8. Mike Sorice
9. Chris Romero
10. Chris Frankel
11. Seth Kendall
12. Jerry Vinokurov
13. Jason Keller
14. Micha Elsner
15. Eric Smith
16. Matt Lafer
17. Sudheer Potru
18. Mike Wehrman
19. Lenny Kostovetsky
20. Dan Suzman

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:15 am
by First Chairman
Okay... I'm sorry I really missed out on monitoring this thread. It's officially locked.