Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Old college threads.
Locked
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Important Bird Area » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:34 pm

This is your specific-question discussion for the 2016 DI ICT.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

gyre and gimble
Tidus
Posts: 719
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:45 am

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by gyre and gimble » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:56 pm

A couple questions that really should have had more careful editing and, thankfully, didn't end up affecting our game results but really could have:

The Lady Gregory tossup's second sentence began with "This man" and proceeded to describe, I think, Cathleen ni Houlihan, leading to a neg with "Yeats," the only male author of that play.

John William Waterhouse painted at least two depictions of the Lady of Shalott, including The Lady of Shalott and I Am Half-Sick of Shadows. I wasn't allowed to protest because, unbeknownst to myself, the first sentence had not been finished being read when I buzzed (even though an entire independent clause had in fact been read). I know it's pretty new, but that rule sucks. It should be changed to "independent clauses" instead of "full sentence," because how am I supposed to know, without the printed question in front of me, whether the whole sentence has been read? It sure sounded like it had, and I had enough information to give a legitimate answer. (This is in reference to the tossup on "To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time.")

Other than that, it seemed like a great set, and probably my favorite ICT.
Stephen Liu
Torrey Pines '10
Harvard '14
Stanford '17

User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5686
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by theMoMA » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:02 am

The Lady Gregory thing was an unfortunate error late in editing. Obviously our bad.

The Waterhouse clue was suboptimal. I might have further thoughts about the protest rule later, but in the future, we'll try to police those first few clues better so that things like this don't happen, regardless of whether it's protestable or not.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum

User avatar
1.82
Rikku
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:35 pm
Location: Atlanta area
Contact:

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by 1.82 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:43 am

I don't have the set in front of me, but a tossup on Galicia led in with "this region" and a reference to a Roman-era event, leading to Jordan buzzing with "Hispania" and being negged. This was suboptimal.
Naveed Chowdhury
Maryland '16
Georgia Tech '17

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Charbroil » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:51 am

Could I see that tossup on the Wehrmacht? Thanks.
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:07 am

2016 DI ICT round 5 wrote:This region is home to an ancient lighthouse called the Tower of Hercules. This region's executive government is called a Xunta. People wear scallops to honor a saint while taking the French Way to this region, whose country's navy has northern ports in this region's cities of Ferrol and (*) A Coruna. The Way of St. James has a western terminus in this autonomous community. The pilgrimage site of Santiago de Compostela is the capital of--for 10 points--what region of northwest Spain?
2016 DI ICT round 11 wrote:In 1935 a leader of this institution allegedly engaged in a sex act with "Bavarian Joe" near the Potsdam rail station, while another leader was forced to resign over his marriage to an ex-prostitute. This institution, whose leaders criticized expansionism at the (*) Hossbach Conference, was purged in the Blomberg-Fritsch crisis, after which it came under the command of Hitler. This institution was formed by a 1935 decree that renamed the Reichswehr. For 10 points--name the Nazi-era German military.

answer: _Wehrmacht_ (prompt on "Heer"; prompt on "Nazi army" or "German army" or "Nazi military" or "German military"; do not accept or prompt on other military branches besides the army)
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Charbroil » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:14 am

bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
2016 DI ICT round 11 wrote:In 1935 a leader of this institution allegedly engaged in a sex act with "Bavarian Joe" near the Potsdam rail station, while another leader was forced to resign over his marriage to an ex-prostitute. This institution, whose leaders criticized expansionism at the (*) Hossbach Conference, was purged in the Blomberg-Fritsch crisis, after which it came under the command of Hitler. This institution was formed by a 1935 decree that renamed the Reichswehr. For 10 points--name the Nazi-era German military.

answer: _Wehrmacht_ (prompt on "Heer"; prompt on "Nazi army" or "German army" or "Nazi military" or "German military"; do not accept or prompt on other military branches besides the army)
Why does this question require the original German term? "Wehrmacht" is a pretty well known term, but it seems odd to do this when you presumably wouldn't require, say, "Forces armées françaises" in a tossup on the French military.
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
The Stately Rhododendron
Rikku
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:18 pm
Location: Heart's in the woods

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by The Stately Rhododendron » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:15 am

I'd love to see/know who wrote the bonus (in one of the early rounds) on Benedict/honor culture/emic/etic. It was awful and seemed to be written from the perspective that Anthropology hasn't changed since 1960.

Ruth Benedict has NEVER came up in a single Anth. class I've taken. Flipping through the syllabi of the anth classes offered here, she isn't mentioned in a single one. (why? I'm going to go with "she was more than a little racist, unethical, and just flat out wrong"). Why does quizbowl ask about her? Has anyone in quizbowl even read her?
I'm pretty sure there's no argument that she's unimportant in present anthropology. Andrew Hart, after all, cited the fact that the Chrys and the Sword showed up in Mad Men as a reason to ask about her. That's stupid, but whatever, write about her in a history TU. This bonus, however, was framed around theories of culture. I heard this and was like :grin: because that is an excellent frame for an anthro question. Who, out of the bountiful riches will they ask about, I thought. George Marcus? Anna Tsing? Going a bit classic with Geertz, Weber or Boas? Perhaps the "complex whole" himself, Tylor? ahhh, sit back and hear the theory :cool: .
Wait, who are they asking about? Ruth? Benedict??????
:aaa:
Ok, rationalize, it has to come up at least once per tournament. Maybe the next line will be about someth.. oh wait. The answerline literally is "honor culture." :shock:

Pike, yes, is important. The other answerlines? nahhhh.

NEVER write a question on Benedict again plz. If you can't resist, just stop writing anthropology.
IKD
Yale 18
Oakland Mills 14
"I am the NAQT beast I worship."

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:50 am

2016 DI ICT round 3 wrote:For 10 points each--answer the following about the academic study of culture:

A. This anthropologist defined culture as "personality writ large" in her pioneering study of Native American societies, ~Patterns of Culture~.

answer: Ruth (Fulton) _Benedict_ (accept Ruth _Fulton_)

B. Richard Nisbett and Dov Cohen suggested that the herding economy of early settlers in the American South promoted this type of culture, in which men are more apt to commit violence to defend their reputation from insults.

answer: culture of _honor_

C. Linguistic anthropologist Kenneth Pike coined two terms, one for a method of analyzing culture from within, the other for analysis from the outside. Name either.

answer: _etic_
_emic_
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:25 am

I would like to see the tossup on California ballot propositions
Nick Conder
Louisville, KY

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."--Eugene V. Debs

User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5686
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by theMoMA » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:30 am

Saying that my jesting citation to Mad Men was some kind of justification or "reason to ask about" Benedict is an extremely flippant characterization of what I said. To be completely clear (although I was completely clear on this when we spoke as well), I did not write this question, nor did I have anything to do with its inclusion in this tournament except for the bare minimum of not sending it back for rewriting or reediting for the odious crime of mentioning Ruth Benedict over the sure-to-follow objections of Isaac Kirk-Davidoff.

I certainly thought there was nothing improper about asking about a figure as universally known as Ruth Benedict as one part of a bonus, especially one that proceeds to scholarship that is more relevant to the current academy. Historically important texts tend to come up in all of the social sciences, often (as here) in the context of subsequent or related scholarship. This is because historically important texts tend to be known, and because they tend to inspire future scholarship. (A Google scholar search turns up nearly 1,000 results for "patterns of culture" + "benedict" in the past four years alone, and over 1,250 results for "culture of honor" in the same time period.)

Attempting to universalize your own coursework to proclaim that certain things are "important," while others should "NEVER" be written on again, is foolish for several reasons. Coursework has blind spots, both students and professors have different preferences on what to emphasize or diminish, and what is studied in the academy isn't always what is known (or worth knowing) in the world of educated people at large.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 2009
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:43 am

Yeah, this seems like a poor line of reasoning. You don't exactly run into a lot of phrenology advocates and degeneration theorists in modern criminology, but that doesn't mean a question on Cesare Lombroso is a bad idea. Maybe we could do with a little more contemporary stuff, but intellectual history is a fine approach to topics (a position I've changed on, since I used to strongly dislike non-curricular econ questions) as long as it's not the only one, i.e. you have "some of what we talk about now" and "some of what we used to talk about."

As someone whose non-quizbowl-related encounters with anthropology are pretty much from seeing citations/references to anthropologists in history books and some assorted reading of internet articles out of personal interest - Ruth Benedict is someone I've encountered multiple times. Meanwhile, I'd never heard of Arjun Appadurai until he appeared in a quizbowl question, even though his work is probably more in line with contemporary stuff.
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

Adventure Temple Trail
Auron
Posts: 2613
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:52 pm

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:08 am

I wrote that bonus. As far as I know, the "culture of honor" hypothesis, while probably essentializing and politically problematic (though largely for the opposite side of the aisle from Isaac), is (a) not a Benedict thing (b) pretty widely discussed at least in interdisciplinary social science contexts (c) is pretty recent [the main study was done in the 90s] (d) hasn't really come up in quizbowl before at all, and so is not actually "overasked" or whatever. So I figured it might make a good middle part, which meant it was probably best to pick bonus parts around it that would be quizbowl-friendly and not insane. Sorr-ree if I wasn't daring enough with my easy part here.

(In general and in principle, I share your enthusiasm for frequently asking about social science stuff the way it's actually taught and cared about outside the quizbowl repetition machine. But I'm not always going to have perfect information on how to do that. (For what it's worth, when I took the one intro-anthropology class I took, we spent a week on the culture-and-personality approach, including Benedict [though not in much detail].))
Matt J.
ex-Georgetown Day HS, ex-Yale
member emeritus, ACF

Sailing away on my copper boat

User avatar
The Stately Rhododendron
Rikku
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:18 pm
Location: Heart's in the woods

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by The Stately Rhododendron » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:04 am

Sorry, misremembered the 2nd bonus part, Matt.

Andrew, I don't think I implied you wrote the question. I took the Mad Men thing as a joke, too. I think I was kind of a d*** in that post, though, and I'm sorry.

Will, I think people would get mad if phrenology was like 1/4 of their neuroscience distro. Since the anth distribution is so tiny, Benedict is a significant portion of it.

I think I was a bit hyperbolic, too, sorry. I just dislike how Benedict comes up in almost every single quizbowl tournament. As Will points out, it's fine to ask about old people if you ask about new people. I just don't think Benedict is that important as an old person. Even if you think she is, for whatever reason, don't ask about her in every tournament. George Marcus (cited more than 2000 times in the same time frame, Andrew), for example, is never asked about, even though he is a critical part of why we don't write or conduct research like Benedict anymore.

If Benedict is "historically important" in your opinion, whatever, that's fine. She is, I guess. Matt's bonus was on the "academic study of culture," which is why I got mad. If you're writing about this, I see no reason why you wouldn't include someone actually covered in intro anthro or methods classes. I guarantee 99.9% people who got the Benedict part right have never read her. "Of course they haven't, it's an easy part." OK, but does it really hurt anyone's feelings to ask about another (easy) anthropologist instead? Because, as Matt may remember from his intro anthro class, there are quite a few (recognizable in quizbowl) anthropologists who are talked about more, nowadays.
IKD
Yale 18
Oakland Mills 14
"I am the NAQT beast I worship."

User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5686
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by theMoMA » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:18 pm

I think this is a more reasonable position, but one that places a large burden on the writer or editor to determine whether a historically important and well-known figure in a particular discipline is still in favor. This seems very difficult, given that most foundational authors and texts will generate frequent citations in current scholarship. It also may well be impossible, as one person's disparaged anthropologist is often another person's dissertation topic. More basically, it is likely, on some level, irrelevant; as I said, quizbowl isn't interested in a rote repetition of the current academy, but rather, attempts to ask about a wide range of things that educated people may learn and care about, including, as Wittgenstein or Sextus Empiricus said, the ladders that have been cast away now that we've ascended to higher places. Even if it is the case that Benedict is uniformly disfavored in the academy, she was still a giant of 20th-century anthropology, and she remains one of the handful of very-well-known anthropologists out there. She will continue to come up in quizbowl, and that is fine, especially when she is the easy part to a bonus that proceeds to fare that's more relevant to current study.

Aside from true students of the social sciences, you won't find many people more interested than I am in trying to bring what people currently study in those disciplines into quizbowl. I'm very sympathetic to the notion that high-level questions should not simply ask about the in-depth features of the foundational early 20th-century texts that people learn studying for the high school game. But saying that the foundational stuff is totally out of bounds doesn't make sense to me either, especially when understanding it is often crucial to understanding the full picture of the discipline as it exists today. (This is an area where quizbowl and the academy diverge dramatically; doctoral students and professors often whittle away at very narrow areas without any care for the larger picture of their disciplines, while quizbowlers are concerned with broad subject areas and the connections between them.)

I appreciate when people with expert knowledge of subjects like anthropology bring their knowledge to the game. Unlike bigger topics, small bits of the social science distribution often don't have experts guiding generalists along in their writing and answer selection. But it's easy to confuse the relatively narrow ambit of the academy with the much broader scope of quizbowl, or to imagine that your own experience in the courses you've happened to take and the professors you've taken them with reflects what everyone else who studies the discipline knows. So I would just say that, at least to me, your suggestions are welcomed, but your proscriptions are not.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum

User avatar
Wynaut
Wakka
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:34 am
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Wynaut » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:57 pm

from the DII ICT discussion thread, Kai Smith wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso is one of the most famous violin showpieces in the repertoire, and it's placement was a tad early.
This also happened in DI. The Motown tossup also had similar issues (dropping Holland-Dozier-Holland AND Hitsville USA in power, even though they're both pretty well-known things about it).
Kenji Shimizu
University of Michigan '18
Summit Academy North High School '13
Writer, NAQT
"...the best Seychelles player in quizbowl" -Auroni Gupta

User avatar
Benin Rebirth Party
Yuna
Posts: 783
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Farhaven, Ontario

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:34 pm

Wynaut wrote:
from the DII ICT discussion thread, Kai Smith wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso is one of the most famous violin showpieces in the repertoire, and it's placement was a tad early.
This also happened in DI.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting an in-power buzzer race on this.
Joe Su
Lisgar 2012, McGill 2015, McGill 20--

FINALIST -- 2017 ILQBM MEME OF THE YEAR

TroubleClef
Kimahri
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by TroubleClef » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:09 pm

Would it be possible to see the tossup on recording the Goldberg Variations? Thanks.
Joseph Langas
John Jay Science and Engineering Academy (SATX) '13
University of Texas - Austin '17

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:16 pm

2016 DI ICT round 11 wrote:After self-financing this action, Simone Dinnerstein rose to fame in 2007. Rosalyn Tureck, who did this action numerous times, was notable for doing it slowly; in 1933 Wanda Landowska became the first to accomplish this action. It was accomplished by a (*) Canadian in 1955 who only took 39 minutes because he skipped repeats; that man performed this action again in 1981, more slowly and while humming. Glenn Gould repeatedly took--for 10 points--what action involving a keyboard work by J. S. Bach?

answer: _record_ing the _Goldberg Variations_ (accept answers that refer both to the _Goldberg Variations_ and the concept of making a _recording_; prompt on "performing the Goldberg Variations" or similar answers that do not refer to the concept of making a recording)
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6598
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Cheynem » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:46 pm

Yeah, people in my room had no idea what to do in terms of being prompted for that; I lack the knowledge to know if that was a good idea for a tossup or not (or, I guess, if it was, if it was clearly done here).

The tossup on Chartres Cathedral I think should have accepted Notre Dame de Chartres Cathedral.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:50 pm

Ferlinghetti's Axis wrote:I would like to see the tossup on California ballot propositions
Not to nag, but I really want to see this question so I can know whether I would have won my protest.
Nick Conder
Louisville, KY

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."--Eugene V. Debs

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Important Bird Area » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:57 pm

2016 DI ICT round 12 wrote:In 2010 this process was used in an attempt to delay implementation of a global warming law until unemployment dropped below 5.5 percent. In 2015 a lawyer tried to use this process to mandate the execution of "sodomites." This process was used in 1978 to cap property (*) taxes at 1 percent; in 1994 to impose restrictions on undocumented immigrants; and in 2008 to pass a later-invalidated anti-gay marriage amendment. For 10 points--name this direct democracy option under the California constitution.

answer: (California ballot) _proposition_ system (accept California _initiative_ process or California _ballot measure_ process; prompt on "referendum" or "ballot")
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:58 pm

EDIT: Jeff beat me to posting the California ballot propositions question.
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Cody » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:06 pm

Cheynem wrote:Yeah, people in my room had no idea what to do in terms of being prompted for that; I lack the knowledge to know if that was a good idea for a tossup or not (or, I guess, if it was, if it was clearly done here).
The recording Goldberg variations TU was awesome (though I suppose it technically could've used an "on harpsichord" to end the Landowska sentence). It was quite well done and delighted me to no end.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:06 pm

bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
2016 DI ICT round 12 wrote:In 2010 this process was used in an attempt to delay implementation of a global warming law until unemployment dropped below 5.5 percent. In 2015 a lawyer tried to use this process to mandate the execution of "sodomites." This process was used in 1978 to cap property (*) taxes at 1 percent; in 1994 to impose restrictions on undocumented immigrants; and in 2008 to pass a later-invalidated anti-gay marriage amendment. For 10 points--name this direct democracy option under the California constitution.

answer: (California ballot) _proposition_ system (accept California _initiative_ process or California _ballot measure_ process; prompt on "referendum" or "ballot")
I buzzed on the property tax clue and answered "California referendum process" and was prompted, upon which I managed to get out (with another prompt thrown in) something along the lines of "the process through which California citizens propose referendums." I was ruled wrong, and I protested, but the game ended up being out of reach. Is there a chance I would have won that protest?

I'm guessing I'll get a snarky response from somebody along the lines of "things have names," because this is quizbowl. However I'm not sure that a comprehensive description of what's going on shouldn't be acceptable here, because even the answerline acknowledges that there's not a particularly agreed upon nomenclature for the "process" itself.
Nick Conder
Louisville, KY

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."--Eugene V. Debs

User avatar
vinteuil
Auron
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by vinteuil » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:15 pm

Cody wrote:
Cheynem wrote:Yeah, people in my room had no idea what to do in terms of being prompted for that; I lack the knowledge to know if that was a good idea for a tossup or not (or, I guess, if it was, if it was clearly done here).
The recording Goldberg variations TU was awesome (though I suppose it technically could've used an "on harpsichord" to end the Landowska sentence). It was quite well done and delighted me to no end.
I thought it was a neat idea, and executed fairly well (thought it ended up being a tiny bit easy—Dinnerstein sold like a gazillion copies). That said, I think the ways of filling the clues (it essentially had the names of four performers and the two Gould dates as its six clues, which seems a bit thin) were suboptimal (e.g. Gould was already humming in 1955, and he had a lot of more unique/salient eccentricities). I think the most confusing clue is the second sentence: Rosalyn Tureck's name is surely more famous than the fact that she recorded the Goldbergs slowly (??)—and the question doesn't make it clear that she didn't play them slowly (her tempo is more or less par for the course).
Jacob Reed
Chicago ~'25
Yale '17, '19
East Chapel Hill '13
"...distant bayings from...the musicological mafia"―Denis Stevens

User avatar
The Stately Rhododendron
Rikku
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:18 pm
Location: Heart's in the woods

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by The Stately Rhododendron » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:18 pm

Ferlinghetti's Axis wrote:
bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
2016 DI ICT round 12 wrote:In 2010 this process was used in an attempt to delay implementation of a global warming law until unemployment dropped below 5.5 percent. In 2015 a lawyer tried to use this process to mandate the execution of "sodomites." This process was used in 1978 to cap property (*) taxes at 1 percent; in 1994 to impose restrictions on undocumented immigrants; and in 2008 to pass a later-invalidated anti-gay marriage amendment. For 10 points--name this direct democracy option under the California constitution.

answer: (California ballot) _proposition_ system (accept California _initiative_ process or California _ballot measure_ process; prompt on "referendum" or "ballot")
I buzzed on the property tax clue and answered "California referendum process" and was prompted, upon which I managed to get out (with another prompt thrown in) something along the lines of "the process through which California citizens propose referendums." I was ruled wrong, and I protested, but the game ended up being out of reach. Is there a chance I would have won that protest?

I'm guessing I'll get a snarky response from somebody along the lines of "things have names," because this is quizbowl. However I'm not sure that a comprehensive description of what's going on shouldn't be acceptable here, because even the answerline acknowledges that there's not a particularly agreed upon nomenclature for the "process" itself.
I may be off base, but I think "referendum" usually implies a vote on existing legislation whereas initiative is citizen-organized legislation.
IKD
Yale 18
Oakland Mills 14
"I am the NAQT beast I worship."

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:10 pm

Wynaut wrote:
from the DII ICT discussion thread, Kai Smith wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso is one of the most famous violin showpieces in the repertoire, and it's placement was a tad early.
This also happened in DI. The Motown tossup also had similar issues (dropping Holland-Dozier-Holland AND Hitsville USA in power, even though they're both pretty well-known things about it).
Let me start by emphasizing that we do NOT have conversion data tabulated yet (edit to add: and we won't have conversion data until this summer). That said, I was curious about these two, so I asked Jonah to compile the conversion data for the DI tossups on Saint-Saens and Motown. Both were played in 16 rooms; here are the numbers:
Saint-Saens: 8 15s, 8 10s, 1 -5
Motown: 7 15s, 9 10s, 2 -5s

The overly high power rate on both tossups supports the assertion that they had early clues that were too easy. I apologize for not catching and fixing that.

-Seth
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:33 pm

The Stately Rhododendron wrote:I may be off base, but I think "referendum" usually implies a vote on existing legislation whereas initiative is citizen-organized legislation.
That's correct, although I think an argument could be made that this tossup wouldn't have looked any different had it been straight up about California referendums. Every example referred to something that became a referendum except one, which as phrased says that somebody "tried to use this process" anyway.

But I'm not even going to make that argument, because upon being prompted my answer included the words "propose" "California" and "process," which is awfully close to "California proposition process." In that case, I think I'm right because we're not talking about something with a super official name, or at least if we were NAQT is being awfully lenient by allowing three separate answers (proposition, initiative, and ballot measure) which all have slightly different meanings.
Nick Conder
Louisville, KY

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."--Eugene V. Debs

User avatar
Sam
Rikku
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:35 am

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Sam » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:42 pm

theMoMA wrote: But it's easy to confuse the relatively narrow ambit of the academy with the much broader scope of quizbowl, or to imagine that your own experience in the courses you've happened to take and the professors you've taken them with reflects what everyone else who studies the discipline knows. So I would just say that, at least to me, your suggestions are welcomed, but your proscriptions are not.
SPEAKING OF relatively narrow ambit, could someone post the instrumental variables tossup?
Sam Bailey
Minnesota 'xx
Chicago '13

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:26 pm

DI ICT round 14 wrote:Within this technique, one may use Sargan's test of overidentifying restrictions and the Pagan-Hall test of heteroscedasticity ["hetero"-skeh-dass-TIH-sih-tee]. Its exclusion restriction may have been violated in a 2004 analysis of civil conflict that utilizes rainfall (*) variation to execute this method, which can be extended to two-stage least-squares regression. Causality is measured by using namesake exogenous variables to correct for endogenous regressors in--for 10 points--what estimation method abbreviated "IV"?

answer: _instrument_al variables (accept _IV_ before "IV")
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

User avatar
Sam
Rikku
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:35 am

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Sam » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:10 am

setht wrote:
DI ICT round 14 wrote:Within this technique, one may use Sargan's test of overidentifying restrictions and the Pagan-Hall test of heteroscedasticity ["hetero"-skeh-dass-TIH-sih-tee]. Its exclusion restriction may have been violated in a 2004 analysis of civil conflict that utilizes rainfall (*) variation to execute this method, which can be extended to two-stage least-squares regression. Causality is measured by using namesake exogenous variables to correct for endogenous regressors in--for 10 points--what estimation method abbreviated "IV"?

answer: _instrument_al variables (accept _IV_ before "IV")
I liked this question but there are several estimation methods that use instrumental variables which could conceivably be promptable. Specifically, IV is sometimes (read: in my personal and presumably universal experience) taught as a specific type of generalized method of moments, but I think the first line could also describe something like two-stage least-squares.
Sam Bailey
Minnesota 'xx
Chicago '13

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:43 am

The Stately Rhododendron wrote:I'd love to see/know who wrote the bonus...
Just so we're all clear: NAQT's writers and editors are always free to reveal their own roles, but are also free to ignore any attempt to call people on the carpet.

If anyone requires a focal person for complaints, kindly direct them to me. I am available here and by email (satelite@gmail.com), and I bear responsibility for all the questions NAQT produces.

Thank you.
-Seth
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

User avatar
t-bar
Tidus
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:12 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by t-bar » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:51 am

setht wrote:
DI ICT round 14 wrote:Within this technique, one may use Sargan's test of overidentifying restrictions and the Pagan-Hall test of heteroscedasticity ["hetero"-skeh-dass-TIH-sih-tee]. Its exclusion restriction may have been violated in a 2004 analysis of civil conflict that utilizes rainfall (*) variation to execute this method, which can be extended to two-stage least-squares regression. Causality is measured by using namesake exogenous variables to correct for endogenous regressors in--for 10 points--what estimation method abbreviated "IV"?

answer: _instrument_al variables (accept _IV_ before "IV")
So, uh, I'm not sure if this is the correct place to bring it up, but an answer of "independent variables" was accepted for this tossup in our game against Stanford, and I don't see anything about that answer on the answerline.
Stephen Eltinge
TJHSST 2011 | MIT 2015 | Yale 20??
ACF member | PACE member | NAQT writer

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 2009
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:46 pm

t-bar wrote:
setht wrote:
DI ICT round 14 wrote:Within this technique, one may use Sargan's test of overidentifying restrictions and the Pagan-Hall test of heteroscedasticity ["hetero"-skeh-dass-TIH-sih-tee]. Its exclusion restriction may have been violated in a 2004 analysis of civil conflict that utilizes rainfall (*) variation to execute this method, which can be extended to two-stage least-squares regression. Causality is measured by using namesake exogenous variables to correct for endogenous regressors in--for 10 points--what estimation method abbreviated "IV"?

answer: _instrument_al variables (accept _IV_ before "IV")
So, uh, I'm not sure if this is the correct place to bring it up, but an answer of "independent variables" was accepted for this tossup in our game against Stanford, and I don't see anything about that answer on the answerline.
That answer is, uh, egregiously wrong. (I didn't write the tossup though)
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

conker
Lulu
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:11 am

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by conker » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:00 pm

I wrote the "recording the Goldberg Variations" tossup. Glad to hear that people thought it was a good idea.

I should point out that Rosalyn Tureck's recording *is* excruciatingly slow, far from being par for the course (her recordings come in at over 90 minutes, compared with 70 minutes for most pianists) -- and is well noted as being such. For example, a Guardian article on the legacy of Tureck says, "But hers remains a controversial interpretation of Bach, however scrupulously correct she felt it to be: for some, all that hard-won clarity lapses into pedantry, especially at her strikingly slow speeds."
Dennis Sun
Shanghai American School '06
Harvard '10
Stanford '15

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:48 am

gyre and gimble wrote:The Lady Gregory tossup's second sentence began with "This man" and proceeded to describe, I think, Cathleen ni Houlihan, leading to a neg with "Yeats," the only male author of that play.
This one has been fixed (changed "This man" to "This writer").
gyre and gimble wrote:John William Waterhouse painted at least two depictions of the Lady of Shalott, including The Lady of Shalott and I Am Half-Sick of Shadows. I wasn't allowed to protest because, unbeknownst to myself, the first sentence had not been finished being read when I buzzed (even though an entire independent clause had in fact been read). I know it's pretty new, but that rule sucks. It should be changed to "independent clauses" instead of "full sentence," because how am I supposed to know, without the printed question in front of me, whether the whole sentence has been read? It sure sounded like it had, and I had enough information to give a legitimate answer. (This is in reference to the tossup on "To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time.")
I agree that it's not good that the only way a player can be absolutely certain they've heard the end of a sentence, rather than an independent clause, is to wait and hear a bit of what comes next. However, I don't think that changing the rule to "first independent clause" will work—we want rules that can be used at all levels of play, and I am confident that there are plenty of moderators (and tournament directors!) roaming the land who can't reliably identify an independent clause.

I think Andrew H. is correct in saying that the correct general solution here is for us to be really careful about the first clues.

In the specific case of the tossup on "To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time," the lead-in has been changed to "This poem's first line titles a John William Waterhouse painting of women in pink and blue dresses near a stream." I trust that clearly rules out "The Lady of Shalott."

-Seth
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:50 am

Our Lady Peace wrote:I don't have the set in front of me, but a tossup on Galicia led in with "this region" and a reference to a Roman-era event, leading to Jordan buzzing with "Hispania" and being negged. This was suboptimal.
The lead-in has been changed to "This modern region..."

-Seth
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

User avatar
setht
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Question-specific discussion: 2016 DI ICT

Post by setht » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:01 am

Sam wrote:
setht wrote:
DI ICT round 14 wrote:Within this technique, one may use Sargan's test of overidentifying restrictions and the Pagan-Hall test of heteroscedasticity ["hetero"-skeh-dass-TIH-sih-tee]. Its exclusion restriction may have been violated in a 2004 analysis of civil conflict that utilizes rainfall (*) variation to execute this method, which can be extended to two-stage least-squares regression. Causality is measured by using namesake exogenous variables to correct for endogenous regressors in--for 10 points--what estimation method abbreviated "IV"?

answer: _instrument_al variables (accept _IV_ before "IV")
I liked this question but there are several estimation methods that use instrumental variables which could conceivably be promptable. Specifically, IV is sometimes (read: in my personal and presumably universal experience) taught as a specific type of generalized method of moments, but I think the first line could also describe something like two-stage least-squares.
Curses. I thought (based on Google searches) that I'd found a pair of tests which, in combination, uniquely picked out IV from the welter of closely related techniques. But there are probably many decent sources that aren't pedantic enough to say "Pagan-Hall is specific to IV, if you want to talk about extending the test to GMM you should use some other name."

I've gone ahead and added prompts on GMM and 2SLS. Edit: actually I have added an early accept directive for GMM, and a prompt for 2SLS.

-Seth
Seth Teitler
Formerly UC Berkeley and U. Chicago
President and Chief Editor, NAQT
Emeritus member, ACF

Locked