ARTSEE 2016: Specific Question Discussion & Review Requests

Old college threads.
Locked
User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

ARTSEE 2016: Specific Question Discussion & Review Requests

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:44 pm

Discuss specific questions here.

I'd like feedback on my stuff in particular. I mostly only wrote on a topic when I thought it had a lot of new material to be explored (i.e. tossups on hard topics, links, or when there was a "fresh" angle available on a common topic. There were some exceptions, of course - things like Canaletto were pretty standard fare.

Painting: Battle of Alexander at Issus, Bosch (Last Judgments), The Trumph of Bacchus, Ovid Among the Scythians, Ognissanti Madonna, fire (in the Borgo and Bonfire of the Vanities), Canaletto, Louis (kings of France), Adoration of the Magi, Caravaggio (history/influence focus), Aristotle C1 (Rembrandt and Raphael), crucifixion (modern artists), De Stijl, trees (mostly Gauguin, with some others later), Franz Stuck, Picasso (self portraits and portraits by others), black and white (modern American art), Magritte, "history" (genre, art history, etc), Nikolai Ge, L'Estaque, The Netherlands (Dutch Interiors and genre paintings), rivers (Chinese Art), Goethe, Utagawa School, Ajanta Caves

Other Arts: Sumeria, Boccioni, Lysippos, Isamu Noguchi, Donald Trump, Baths of Caracalla, "On Photography", Robert Frank, China (photography), Frederick Ashton, tango, Egypt (other music), Giulio Cesare

Music: Palestrina, Dufay, Germany (medieval music), virginal, Johannes (common link), Dudamel, Bach cello suites, harpsichord, Venice, Christmas (Baroque), trumpet (Baroque), Buxtehude, four (Baroque), Mozart piano sonatas, Emperor Concerto, Cherubini, "Choral", Eszterhaza, clarinet (Mozart clues), Bruch, Kalevala, Schumann Quintet, Dvorak's trip to America, Tchaikovsky (piano trio theme), Alkan, Great C Major Symphony, Chopin's nocturnes, string orchestra, saxophone, aleatoric composition, Schoenberg, Whitman, La Mer, Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony, scherzo, Michael Haydn, variations on Paganini, William Grant Still
Last edited by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

User avatar
Wynaut
Wakka
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:34 am
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Wynaut » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:45 am

Could I see the Trump TU? I certainly wasn't expecting that and was a bit hesitant to buzz (though I still did) at the clue describing the sculptures demolished at Trump Tower New York. I'm a bit curious how you filled up the rest of the tossup.

Also, people at the Michigan site seemed to agree that the Battle of Issus TU was pretty transparent/easy (I believe there was a German museum mentioned, followed by the clue about the moon).
Kenji Shimizu
University of Michigan '18
Summit Academy North High School '13
Writer, NAQT
"...the best Seychelles player in quizbowl" -Auroni Gupta

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6558
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Cheynem » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:09 am

The film was generally good and even great (the tossup on Norma Desmond's mansion was inspired), but why did Charles Band's film studio have to be tossed up? I knew stuff about Band, but having to remember one of his various companies (granted, his most famous) was really annoying.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Rufous-capped Thornbill
Tidus
Posts: 711
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:03 pm

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:36 am

Cheynem wrote:The film was generally good and even great (the tossup on Norma Desmond's mansion was inspired), but why did Charles Band's film studio have to be tossed up? I knew stuff about Band, but having to remember one of his various companies (granted, his most famous) was really annoying.
Thanks for the kind words. There's really not a good reason why I wrote the question on Full Moon; I wanted something B-movie related and I watched a lot of Band's stuff in college, so I wrote about that. I knew it was probably one of the more obscure answers in the set, and I'm sorry it annoyed you, but I'll always be ok with a small amount of obscure whimsy in hard side tournaments. In the future I might write on more gettable topics like Roger Corman or Troma.

For the record, as Will noted in the other thread, I wrote most of the jazz and film for this tournament. My questions:

Film: Czechoslovakia; Mae West; Norma Desmond's Mansion; Iran; Harold Lloyd; USA (experimental film); Full Moon Features; Drive; Jane Campion; The French Connection; Rainer Werner Fassbinder; Tokyo Story; Vienna; Daffy Duck; Hard to be a God; Do The Right Thing; The Red Shoes

Jazz: Duke Ellington; New Orleans; jazz guitar; Eric Dolphy; stride piano; Blue; Sarah Vaughan; Weather Report

Other: Tiepolo; Frantisek Kupka; George Bellows; Building Stories; Moebius

This was my first time writing film or jazz on a large scale, so any feedback is welcome. For the jazz, I have no musical training, so I wrote most of my questions from somewhat of a fan's perspective rather than a player's. I hope that played out ok.
Jarret Greene
South Range '10 / Ohio State '13 / Vermont '17
Member, PACE

15.366
Lulu
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:57 pm

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by 15.366 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:44 am

Rufous-capped Thornbill wrote: For the record, as Will noted in the other thread, I wrote most of the jazz and film for this tournament. My questions:

Film: Czechoslovakia; Mae West; Norma Desmond's Mansion; Iran; Harold Lloyd; USA (experimental film); Full Moon Features; Drive; Jane Campion; The French Connection; Rainer Werner Fassbinder; Tokyo Story; Vienna; Daffy Duck; Hard to be a God; Do The Right Thing; The Red Shoes

Jazz: Duke Ellington; New Orleans; jazz guitar; Eric Dolphy; stride piano; Blue; Sarah Vaughan; Weather Report

Other: Tiepolo; Frantisek Kupka; George Bellows; Building Stories; Moebius

This was my first time writing film or jazz on a large scale, so any feedback is welcome. For the jazz, I have no musical training, so I wrote most of my questions from somewhat of a fan's perspective rather than a player's. I hope that played out ok.
I'll comment that I was not the only one who was surprised that on the stride piano question, "Carolina Shout" was still in power. I mean, thank you, but... I don't even play jazz piano myself, but even in previous jazz questions that I've encountered in quiz bowl, James P. Johnson-Carolina Shout-stride piano are tightly linked, and everyone I know who actually moves in the jazz piano world is familiar, if not with the piece itself, with Ethan Iverson's writings on the subject of James P. Johnson that always mention "Carolina Shout" as his finest piece.
Tamara Vardomskaya
University of Ottawa '08
University of Chicago '18
Coach, Lisgar Collegiate Institute '03-'08

User avatar
gimmedatguudsuccrose
Wakka
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:17 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by gimmedatguudsuccrose » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:32 pm

Here are the questions that I contributed (in the first 7 rounds):

Music: Microtonal, 'B,' E-flat,' Perfect Fourth, Oistrakh, Pavarotti, Nielsen, Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta, Oboe, Romania, Totentanz, and Russia.

Other Auditory/Non Auditory: Silk Road, Le Sacre du Printemps, Bacchus and Ariadne, Ireland, Drums, Andrea Chenier, Vaughan Williams, Gianni Schicchi, Otello, Doctor Atomic, I Puritani, Nostalghia, Lions, Learning from Las Vegas, Demuth, and Antoine-Jean Gros.

Like Will, if there is any specific feedback on my questions I would love to hear it. In particular, I'm curious as to how some of my canon-busting tossups played, such as Bacchus and Ariadne, David Oistrakh, and Nostalghia. I haven't included my questions for rounds 8 and 9 as it appears that few sites played them, but PM me if you have any comments about them.

In terms of specific errors, I know that the Perfect Fourth tossup had an atrociously worded lead-in and that the Pavarotti tossup had a very poor clue that led to some negs. These errors have been fixed for future mirrors.
Last edited by gimmedatguudsuccrose on Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Kai Smith
Farragut High School '15
University of Chicago '19

User avatar
women, fire and dangerous things
Tidus
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:34 pm
Location: Örkko, Cimmeria

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by women, fire and dangerous things » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:10 pm

The film questions were generally good. I also wasn't a fan of the Full Moon tossup, not so much because it was hard (which it was), but because its connection to "art" was rather tenuous. I agree that something like Roger Corman (and maybe Troma) is a better idea in that it's a topic that gets discussed by serious film people.

Nostalghia's a good idea, Kai - it doesn't come up much, but Tarkovsky only made 7 films and he's one of the most important directors ever, so most of his films are fair game for tossups at this difficulty. Plus, Ike buzzer-raced me off of video game knowledge.
Will Nediger
-Proud member of the cult of Urcuchillay-
University of Western Ontario 2011, University of Michigan 2017
Emeritus member, ACF
Writer, NAQT

User avatar
Guile Island
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 783
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:45 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Guile Island » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:24 pm

I generally thought the Jazz in this tournament was quite good, with the exception of the stride piano TU - the leadin made it very apparent to me that this is a style of jazz piano, so I was pretty much already out of options and took the plunge shortly after.

Will have more in a few days, hopefully.
Dylan Minarik
PACE (Former Director of Communications, 2018-19 season)

Northwestern '17
Belvidere North High School '13

JRPG Champion, BACK TO BACK Robot Slayer

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:56 pm

Trump tossup:
Round 2 wrote: This figure names an Istanbul building which contains the world’s largest community wine cellar, with a capacity of over 16,000 bottles. The construction of a building named for this figure necessitated the demolition of the Art Deco sculptures on the facade of the Bonwit Teller flagship store, which were originally to be sold to the MoMA. A 70-story building in Panama City named for this figure is shaped like two semicircles placed at an angle, somewhat resembling a vagina. A Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill building in Chicago named for this figure contains the Michelin two-star restaurant Sixteen and a Forbes five-star (*) hotel. This person employed two hundred Polish workers for insanely low wages to construct a skyscraper on 57th Street in Manhattan. He names the second-tallest building in Chicago. For 10 points, name this man who has a namesake “Tower” in New York City which will happily sell you a hat saying “Make America Great Again.”
ANSWER: Donald J. Trump [or The Donald; or Donald Drumpf] <WA>
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5686
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by theMoMA » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:27 am

I was amused by that question (and was amused to power it), but looking at it now, I wonder why it's necessary to refer to Trump as a "figure." It's a fairly common quizbowl trope to refer to people as "figures" in quizbowl writing, but it seems needlessly imprecise and potentially confusing. Why not just "this person"?
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:08 am

theMoMA wrote:I was amused by that question (and was amused to power it), but looking at it now, I wonder why it's necessary to refer to Trump as a "figure." It's a fairly common quizbowl trope to refer to people as "figures" in quizbowl writing, but it seems needlessly imprecise and potentially confusing. Why not just "this person"?
To be honest, it's mostly because I was amused by the idea of referring to Trump as "this figure" and thought it might highlight the amusing nature of the question (though it was still intended as a real architecture question, since it had what I thought were knowable clues about buildings).
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

User avatar
Perturbed Secretary Bird
Lulu
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:34 am

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Perturbed Secretary Bird » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:56 am

In the general discussion thread, Andrew said that some questions were "straight out of an EFT-like event, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is perhaps more perfunctory than you'd like to see at an event like this." In the future, what is the best way to ask about easier/ more well-known artists (ie, Klimt, Wyeth, Homer, Bernini)? These were all people who I wanted to ask and tried to do so by focusing on lesser-known works. According to a teammate, this resulted in tossups that were mostly first-line clues and then a stupidly easy giveaway. Is it correct to say that I should only ask specific works by people like these or do common links instead at this level?

Also, I'll go ahead and list my questions (from all rounds, 8-9 listed last):

Painting, Mixed, and Sculpture: Gentileschi, Anguissola, Greuze, Meurent, Burne-Jones, Klimt, Morisot, Homer, (female) nudes, Shahnameh, suicide, Judith, Leyster, Labille-Guiard, Schiele, Hiffernan, Wyeth, chicken, Albers, NYC (graffiti), Brutus, daughters, Native Americans, America (black female sculptors), Nevelson, Serra, Bernini

Architecture: Niemeyer, Hadid, Cahokia, Angkor Wat, Santa Maria Novella, Barcelona

Performance, Photography, Other: Laurie Anderson, Ringgold, Goldblatt, Schneemann

Any feedback about specifics is greatly appreciated! I do regret writing the too-broad "Native Americans" answer line. I'm sure there was a more specific, better way to accomplish that.
Athena Kern
She/her/hers or they/them/theirs
University of Chicago Class of '18, Team VP '15-'17
P. L. Dunbar '14
PACE

User avatar
armitage
Wakka
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:52 pm

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by armitage » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:51 am

York negged the female nudes tossup with "women artists" on the namedrop of Nochlin, I think. He probably just brain farted the pronoun, but it makes me curious to see the wording of the question. Could you post it?
Richard Yu

User avatar
Ike
Yuna
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Ike » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:02 pm

armitage wrote:York negged the female nudes tossup with "women artists" on the namedrop of Nochlin, I think. He probably just brain farted the pronoun, but it makes me curious to see the wording of the question. Could you post it?
Did the same thing here. I'd like to see this as well.

_________

I just want to take a step back and talk about the bigger picture of the gender pronoun debacle. Like Jerry, I was very confused by the wording, and I almost negged the Burne-Jones TU if it weren't for the moderator and the other team graciously giving me my deserved points. In fact, what also kind of sucks is that I would have buzzed on the second clue but I was just so confused by the wording of the question.

So, here's my problem with the entire use of "they" instead of "this artist," which is that after four years of playing quizbowl, including Minnesota Open 2012, you should definitely know by better now Will. The entire point of a head editor is to make decisions final - frankly, I don't see how you couldn't have seen this was a bad idea unless you just didn't give a fuck about how tossups play. But on the off chance that you are unsure yourself, you could have even asked me or any number of people who weren't playing the tournament if it was a bad idea. But instead, you made a decision that made those tossups unplayable. On a related note, your answer of "it's mostly because I was amused by the idea of referring to Trump as 'this figure' and thought it might highlight the amusing nature of the question" in response to Andrew Hart's question tells me that instead of producing a set that is playable, you're more interested in amusing yourself. One of the things that made this set annoying to play was that there were just little things that compounded that it snowballed into what I thought was a very mediocre set*. I guess for a summer open or a side event, whatever, it's fine - I still had fun, but for any serious tournament I hope that you stop making asinine decisions, and that when you write serious questions for EFT, you decide to choose clarity and play-ability over amusing yourself.

I'll have more to say about the content of the set later.
Ike
UIUC 13

15.366
Lulu
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:57 pm

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by 15.366 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:06 pm

armitage wrote:York negged the female nudes tossup with "women artists" on the namedrop of Nochlin, I think. He probably just brain farted the pronoun, but it makes me curious to see the wording of the question. Could you post it?
A similar thing happened in our room at Michigan. Ike recognized the first line as about an essay he'd read described as "Why aren't there more female painters/Why aren't the female painters any good?" (from my recollections of his answers and prompts) and was trying to give that as an answer. If that is the most popular association with the critic mentioned in the first clue, that would have derailed more than one person.

ETA: Sorry, Ike, it seems I was writing at the same time you were. Your account of events should take precedence.
Last edited by 15.366 on Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tamara Vardomskaya
University of Ottawa '08
University of Chicago '18
Coach, Lisgar Collegiate Institute '03-'08

15.366
Lulu
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:57 pm

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by 15.366 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:11 pm

The Hilarious House of Frightenstein wrote:
Like Will, if there is any specific feedback on my questions I would love to hear it. In particular, I'm curious as to how some of my canon-busting tossups played, such as Bacchus and Ariadne, David Oistrakh, and Nostalghia. I haven't included my questions for rounds 8 and 9 as it appears that few sites played them, but PM me if you have any comments about them.
I was quite happy with the David Oistrakh tossup (I got it on mention of his duet with his son Igor, as I own the recording of them doing the Bach Double). I hadn't encountered the fact about his preferred string setup before, and I liked it. Even if you don't know that fact, it does reveal that we're talking about either a violinist or a cellist, narrowing down the answer space.
Tamara Vardomskaya
University of Ottawa '08
University of Chicago '18
Coach, Lisgar Collegiate Institute '03-'08

User avatar
Perturbed Secretary Bird
Lulu
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:34 am

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Perturbed Secretary Bird » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:18 pm

Here's the "nudes" tossup:

This artistic subject is explored in a discussion of Matrix by Jenny Saville in a critical work by Linda Nochlin. The episode of Ways of Seeing that discusses this artistic subject begins by describing some people who have been raised to constantly think of seeing themselves. In an essay by Nochlin, chapters on this artistic subject alternate with chapters focusing on nature; that essay states on this subject that paintings should also be critically assessed by taking their effect on the viewer into account. A Spanish painter created a setup in which a pulley was used to (*) reveal a painting of this kind of artistic subject by lifting up another. Kenneth Clark called the Kritios Boy the first beautiful one of these things in a book that he wrote about them subtitled “A Study in Ideal Form.” For 10 points, name this artistic subject, an example of which is one of Goya’s Majas.
ANSWER: nudes [accept female nudes or nude women, prompting on women or females; accept La maja desnuda] <AK>


Yeah, I should have described Bathers, Bodies, Beauty before name-dropping Nochlin."Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?" does not even mention the word "nude," but I should have reordered it to prevent that unfortunate reflex buzz.
Athena Kern
She/her/hers or they/them/theirs
University of Chicago Class of '18, Team VP '15-'17
P. L. Dunbar '14
PACE

User avatar
women, fire and dangerous things
Tidus
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:34 pm
Location: Örkko, Cimmeria

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by women, fire and dangerous things » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:45 pm

I made that same neg, as you might remember, but I don't think it's the fault of the question - buzzing in on the assumption that the clue's talking about the most famous Nochlin work involves taking a risk. Still, it's true that a fuller description might have been more helpful (since I have actually read "Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?", and though I didn't remember if it discussed Saville, it seemed plausible).
Will Nediger
-Proud member of the cult of Urcuchillay-
University of Western Ontario 2011, University of Michigan 2017
Emeritus member, ACF
Writer, NAQT

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:17 pm

Ike wrote: So, here's my problem with the entire use of "they" instead of "this artist," which is that after four years of playing quizbowl, including Minnesota Open 2012, you should definitely know by better now Will. The entire point of a head editor is to make decisions final - frankly, I don't see how you couldn't have seen this was a bad idea unless you just didn't give a fuck about how tossups play. But on the off chance that you are unsure yourself, you could have even asked me or any number of people who weren't playing the tournament if it was a bad idea. But instead, you made a decision that made those tossups unplayable. On a related note, your answer of "it's mostly because I was amused by the idea of referring to Trump as 'this figure' and thought it might highlight the amusing nature of the question" in response to Andrew Hart's question tells me that instead of producing a set that is playable, you're more interested in amusing yourself.
I will refer you to the initial post I made in the general discussion thread. If there is to be further discussion of the identifier issue, please keep it there, and when you do post the discussion, do so after reading what I've posted about how these issues materialized and without making baseless assertions about my attitude towards quizbowl. I haven't put as much time or work into this game as you or many others posting in this thread, but I have written a lot of questions and dedicated an awful lot of my time to this game (despite team issues, etc.) For you to suggest that I do not care about the basic functions of quizbowl, such as how questions play out, is not just false but deeply insulting.

In brief, this (which I may not have made entirely clear in said initial post): I didn't originate the use of "they" and explicitly told writers to use alternatives; when I did find instances of "they" used as an identifier (or edited by others into questions), I weeded them out, but I wasn't able to give the set a thorough overview because questions were submitted far too late, despite my statement to writers that questions should be submitted well in advance because of my upcoming commitments. I had far too much going on to execute an adequate editing job and maintain sufficient personal health for the upcoming training session in which I am currently enrolled; if you ask me now, I am still thankful that I chose this course of action. I've learned some lessons from this, and will be implementing them in EFT (you can ask the writers for that tournament about how deadly serious I've gotten about deadlines in recent days).

As for the "figure" thing - that' seems like a non-issue. I used it once and I suspect it had almost no impact on gameplay. It made the possible answerspace wider from "humans who have lots of buildings named after them" to "persons/characters/gods/etc. which have lots of buildings named after them." I thought it was a bit amusing to call Donald Trump "this figure." I clearly think this isn't appropriate in, say, painting because I didn't do it in painting tossups on human subjects (i.e. Aristotle) so why are you insisting on ascribing bad motives to me?

I hope this is clear enough to people. I will not be personally responding to any more comments about this issue on the forums.
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

User avatar
Ike
Yuna
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Ike » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:44 pm

In brief, this (which I may not have made entirely clear in said initial post): I didn't originate the use of "they" and explicitly told writers to use alternatives; when I did find instances of "they" used as an identifier (or edited by others into questions), I weeded them out, but I wasn't able to give the set a thorough overview because questions were submitted far too late, despite my statement to writers that questions should be submitted well in advance because of my upcoming commitments. I had far too much going on to execute an adequate editing job and maintain sufficient personal health for the upcoming training session in which I am currently enrolled; if you ask me now, I am still thankful that I chose this course of action. I've learned some lessons from this, and will be implementing them in EFT (you can ask the writers for that tournament about how deadly serious I've gotten about deadlines in recent days).
It really should take you 40 minutes MAX to root out with fire and sword all confusing usages of "they" with the help of control F. I am sympathetic if your less-experienced writers didn't know better. But you certainly do. And if that means you have to cut out writing one tossup so that you have a set that doesn't have this playability issue, do so, or find someone who will do it! (And proofread for that matter.)
so why are you insisting on ascribing bad motives to me?
I don't think I'm ascribing bad motives. I just think that you're making bad decisions.
Ike
UIUC 13

User avatar
Ike
Yuna
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Ike » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:47 pm

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:I made that same neg, as you might remember, but I don't think it's the fault of the question - buzzing in on the assumption that the clue's talking about the most famous Nochlin work involves taking a risk. Still, it's true that a fuller description might have been more helpful (since I have actually read "Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?", and though I didn't remember if it discussed Saville, it seemed plausible).
I'm sorry, but it appears that over half of the rooms that heard this question negged it. I think theoretically it may not be the fault of the question, but empirically, something went wrong. Good questions should be "non-invasive," and I think this could have been ameliorated with a better pronoun and a fuller description. Honestly, it's possible if I were writing the same tossup that I would have made the same error and would be giving out ~mea culpas~ like Athena is right now, but I would just use as it a lesson to try harder to write a less baity TU.
Ike
UIUC 13

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Cody » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:22 pm

I guess I'm confused (and maybe the writers can explain better) as to how "they" was used as a singular identifier if you explicitly told people not to use it? Something doesn't add up for me.

I will diverge from Ike and say it shouldn't even take 40 minutes to root out "they" (and it isn't even a job the head editor has to do), as I've gone through many sets using Ctrl-F to fix certain quirks. It's a 10-minute job for a set of this size.

I also wish to note that for this, and other tournaments, packetization shouldn't even be a thing. You should have your spreadsheet, category docs, and packet templates set up at the start of production (when time matters the least) and then once a question is edited the editor or writer copies it to the packet template (using some notation to note it is done, such as strikethrough). Work smarter, not harder.

Also, there is a reason the HSAPQ style guide bans the use of the identifier "this figure".
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Auroni
Auron
Posts: 2998
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Auroni » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:04 pm

A couple of scattered thoughts:
Ike wrote:Honestly, it's possible if I were writing the same tossup that I would have made the same error and would be giving out ~mea culpas~ like Athena is right now, but I would just use as it a lesson to try harder to write a less baity TU.
I think it's very hard to predict, sometimes, when a particular tossup/clue/leadin is "baity", because you don't necessarily know what levels of engagement your audience will have with the subject matter, and I could see a lot of people wasting a lot of time trying to bait-proof their questions, when instead they should be as explicit as possible with every clue, and hope for the best.
Cody wrote:I also wish to note that for this, and other tournaments, packetization shouldn't even be a thing. You should have your spreadsheet, category docs, and packet templates set up at the start of production (when time matters the least) and then once a question is edited the editor or writer copies it to the packet template (using some notation to note it is done, such as strikethrough). Work smarter, not harder.
This is also my preferred writing process (mainly because I have spoken with you and copied your spreadsheet scripts), but I think that it's pretty non-obvious for people who are just getting together to write a tournament and have no behind-the-scenes knowledge of how tournaments get written. We should do a better job at instructing people about optimizing set creation.
Auroni Gupta
UIUC
ACF

User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5686
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by theMoMA » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:02 pm

I'm not familiar with Nochlin, but it strikes me that a question on "why aren't there as many well-studied women artists?" probably wouldn't lead off with a clue about her, because her essay appears to be the tentpole of the whole field of discussion. I don't mean to say that the clue shouldn't have been fleshed out a bit to head off that potential neg, but it appears to me that buzzing on that clue (a) inherently comes with some risk, given that it didn't actually fit the answer of "why aren't there as many well studied women artists?"; and (b) probably wasn't the best strategic choice, given that Nochlin's work was unlikely to appear so early in a question on that answer.

I get that these things aren't always easy to process at game speed, and have made similar frustrating negs myself throughout the years, but as Auroni says, sometimes it's hard for writers to anticipate what will confuse players, and as Jerry legendarily set forth, sometimes, attention must be paid.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:40 pm

Ike wrote:I'm sorry, but it appears that over half of the rooms that heard this question negged it. I think theoretically it may not be the fault of the question, but empirically, something went wrong.
What went wrong seems to be that people were not aware of other Linda Nochlin works, or at least did not take their existence into consideration when buzzing, which is not the question writer's fault! You and I have discussed before how "people only knowing one thing of X type" can lead to negs. I maintain that this is not a bad thing, because thinking "only X could possibly be the answer if we talk about Y" is a bad mentality when V, W, and Z all exist and fall under topic Y. In fact, asking about V, W, and Z is a great way to expand the canon and dig up fresh material, because this whole line of logic assumes that people are familiar with Y!
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

Eddie
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Eddie » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:54 pm

Here are some specific thoughts I had about individual questions in this set.

The tossup on scherzo could have used a more straightforward pronoun such as "this form" or "this genre." While I appreciated the thematic content of the question, I was thoroughly baffled by the term "this title," as I don't usually consider "scherzo" to be a title, much like how "waltz" or "rondo" isn't considered a title unless it's a standalone piece either.
The tossup on the Shahnameh did not accept the Book of Kings as an alternate answer line.
The tossup on variations on Paganini gives the key of the eighteenth variation as D major, instead of D-flat major.
The tossup on oboe gives the key of Marcello's concerto as C minor, instead of D minor.
The tossup on Dufay says that he may have invented fauxbourdon. As far as I know, it is the musicological consensus that Dufay did not invent fauxbourdon, but rather imported it from English musicians during and in the aftermath of the Hundred Years' War.
The tossup on Schoenberg highlighting his essays and literary output was a cool idea.
The tossup on Dvorak's trip to America was a cool idea.
The tossup on Romania had the following clue, which I thought was negbait: "Ethnomusicological research in this country inspired the piece Cantata Profana and a set of folk dances by a Hungarian composer who was actually born here, Bela Bartok." If you know that Bartok collected folk songs and that he wrote Cantata Profana, it would be a very natural leap to buzz with Hungary at the name drop of the piece. I am speaking from personal frustration, but it felt like a very "lol u idiot, well ACKSHUALLY"-type clue.
The tossup on the Esterhazy palace was a cool idea.
The tossup on Russia was a cool idea.
The tossup on Schubert 9 gives the opening passage as a solo for horn, rather than a soli for two horns.
The tossup on Robert le Diable had a number of great clues on the historical context and development of grand opera. In particular, I was a big fan of the lead-in clue about gas lights in the Paris Opera and the out-of-power clue about ballet blancs. I do think, as mentioned in the other thread, that this tossup could have worked better as one on Meyerbeer, grand opera, or even the devil, instead of taking the old-man-seafood approach.
The tossup on Johannes includes a hose (or at best, a confusing clue) in the following clue: "A polymath with this first name wrote the treatise Ars Nova Musicae, helping name the ars nova tradition." Philippe de Vitry, who admittedly did not write Ars novae musicae, did write the treatise Ars nova, and is also credited with introducing the term ars nova and being the foremost theorist / composer of the time, next to Machaut.
The tossup on the Carmina Burana clued the tempo and time signature of the opening passage of "O Fortuna," which I thought was a very unique and evocative detail.
Eddie Kim
he/him/his
local lad, no major affiliations

User avatar
gimmedatguudsuccrose
Wakka
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:17 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by gimmedatguudsuccrose » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:19 pm

Spheal With It wrote:Here are some specific thoughts I had about individual questions in this set.

The tossup on scherzo could have used a more straightforward pronoun such as "this form" or "this genre." While I appreciated the thematic content of the question, I was thoroughly baffled by the term "this title," as I don't usually consider "scherzo" to be a title, much like how "waltz" or "rondo" isn't considered a title unless it's a standalone piece either.
The tossup on the Shahnameh did not accept the Book of Kings as an alternate answer line.
The tossup on variations on Paganini gives the key of the eighteenth variation as D major, instead of D-flat major.
The tossup on oboe gives the key of Marcello's concerto as C minor, instead of D minor.
The tossup on Dufay says that he may have invented fauxbourdon. As far as I know, it is the musicological consensus that Dufay did not invent fauxbourdon, but rather imported it from English musicians during and in the aftermath of the Hundred Years' War.
The tossup on Schoenberg highlighting his essays and literary output was a cool idea.
The tossup on Dvorak's trip to America was a cool idea.
The tossup on Romania had the following clue, which I thought was negbait: "Ethnomusicological research in this country inspired the piece Cantata Profana and a set of folk dances by a Hungarian composer who was actually born here, Bela Bartok." If you know that Bartok collected folk songs and that he wrote Cantata Profana, it would be a very natural leap to buzz with Hungary at the name drop of the piece. I am speaking from personal frustration, but it felt like a very "lol u idiot, well ACKSHUALLY"-type clue.
The tossup on the Esterhazy palace was a cool idea.
The tossup on Russia was a cool idea.
The tossup on Schubert 9 gives the opening passage as a solo for horn, rather than a soli for two horns.
The tossup on Robert le Diable had a number of great clues on the historical context and development of grand opera. In particular, I was a big fan of the lead-in clue about gas lights in the Paris Opera and the out-of-power clue about ballet blancs. I do think, as mentioned in the other thread, that this tossup could have worked better as one on Meyerbeer, grand opera, or even the devil, instead of taking the old-man-seafood approach.
The tossup on Johannes includes a hose (or at best, a confusing clue) in the following clue: "A polymath with this first name wrote the treatise Ars Nova Musicae, helping name the ars nova tradition." Philippe de Vitry, who admittedly did not write Ars novae musicae, did write the treatise Ars nova, and is also credited with introducing the term ars nova and being the foremost theorist / composer of the time, next to Machaut.
The tossup on the Carmina Burana clued the tempo and time signature of the opening passage of "O Fortuna," which I thought was a very unique and evocative detail.
Thanks for the feedback! I'm really glad to hear that you enjoyed the score clues from Carmina Burana - I tried to include score clues that had not come up before but would be buzzable enough for an avid listener.

For the Oboe tossup, I have played a transcription of the Marcello concerto that is in C minor, not D minor, but I definitely should have been more stringent about using reverse-clue lookup.

I really apologize about the Cantata Profana clue - I did not realize it was included in the tossup using that wording, so mea culpa. Also, I am to blame for the Bacchus et Adriane, Robert le Diable, and Vaughan Williams tossups. Having such narrow answerlines was in hindsight not the most optimal choice for the field as a whole, and for that I apologize.
Kai Smith
Farragut High School '15
University of Chicago '19

Eddie
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Eddie » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:37 pm

One more thing I just noticed - the tossup on I puritani has an hose in the lead-in: "Luigi Bassi wrote a fantasy for clarinet and piano based on themes from this opera..." Bassi wrote lots of clarinet fantasies based on operas, the most famous of which is actually the one based on Rigoletto. Ambiguity aside, I do like this clue and think it's a good idea as a lead-in.
Eddie Kim
he/him/his
local lad, no major affiliations

User avatar
gimmedatguudsuccrose
Wakka
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:17 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by gimmedatguudsuccrose » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:31 pm

Spheal With It wrote:One more thing I just noticed - the tossup on I puritani has an hose in the lead-in: "Luigi Bassi wrote a fantasy for clarinet and piano based on themes from this opera..." Bassi wrote lots of clarinet fantasies based on operas, the most famous of which is actually the one based on Rigoletto. Ambiguity aside, I do like this clue and think it's a good idea as a lead-in.
Again, this is my mistake for not exercising as much reverse clue look-up as I should have.
Kai Smith
Farragut High School '15
University of Chicago '19

User avatar
Cody
2008-09 Male Athlete of the Year
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 am
Location: Richmond

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Cody » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:34 pm

I don't have the set in front of me, so things may've changed, but since they've been brought up, I will note that the Dvorak in America and variations on Paganini TUs had bad choices for pronouns. I would be hard-pressed to describe the time period that Dvorak spent in America as an event, or pieces that are variations on Paganini as a technique. Pronouns are meant to guide players to the answer; bad pronouns quickly lead players into a quagmire.
Cody Voight, VCU ‘14. I wrote lots of science and am an electrical engineer.
VCU Tournament Director ‘13-‘17. HSAPQ President ‘15-16.
Hero of Socialist Quizbowl Labor (NSC ‘14). “esteemed colleague” of Snap Wexley, ca. 2016. Stats Hero (Nats ‘16).
Quizbowl at VCU

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:49 pm

I'm going to change that to a tossup on Paganini.

As for the Romania tossup, I will simply say "attention must be paid" and "clues must be known." Cantata Profana is based on Romanian songs. Bartok was ethnically Hungarian, but he was born in modern-day Romania and even wrote a set of Romanian Rhapsodies (which are clued in the tossup).
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5686
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by theMoMA » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:04 pm

What about just changing the clue to:

A Hungarian composer who was actually born in this country, Bela Bartok, conducted ethnomusicological research in this country that inspired his piece Cantata Profana.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum

User avatar
Auks Ran Ova
Forums Staff: Chief Administrator
Posts: 4042
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:28 pm
Location: Minneapolis
Contact:

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:17 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:but he was born in modern-day Romania
Just as a word of advice for cases similar to this one in the future, this specific defense of the clue is exactly what Eddie criticizes it as. Bartok was born in what was at the time the Kingdom of Hungary (a part of Austria-Hungary, naturally), he's ethnically Hungarian, and he's undeniably and universally regarded as a "Hungarian composer". The fact that 40 years later the borders changed slightly and Nagyszentmiklos became Sannicolau Mare is nitpicky to the extreme.

That said, in this case even the original structure of the clue is fairly unambiguous--songs collected in Romania inspired the Cantata Profana, so negs made are unfortunate but basically out of luck. That said, from a player empathy standpoint I'd definitely support rearranging the clue in some way or providing some sort of out--something like Andrew suggests, or even just something like "A composer born in a neighboring country carried out ethnomusicological research in this one that inspired his piece Cantata Profana" if you don't want to give too much of the game away.
Rob Carson
University of Minnesota '11, MCTC '??
Member, ACF
Member, PACE
Writer and Editor, NAQT

User avatar
Ike
Yuna
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Ike » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:40 pm

To pile onto what Rob said:

If I were editing this particular clue for any tournament, I would have re-arranged it to be less negbaity. Will, I've blasted you many times for writing questions that are not entirely player friendly, such as the "British Empire" tossup, and I think this type of attitude is again prevalent in this Romania question. Stop!

More importantly, I think the wording is still ambiguous, If the wording is "Ethnomusicological research in this country inspired the piece Cantata Profana," then Hungary is plausibly a right answer if Bartok conducted the analysis of Romanian songs in Hungary, since a sentence of "Ethnomusicological research performed in this country inspired the piece Cantata Profana" is one way to read the ambiguously worded text*. Much more important, is how many goddamn grammar errors were in the set, which made it so that players at times couldn't figure out what sentences were trying to say. So instead of relying on players to parse your questions down to the T, you should just avoid writing negbait altogether because the number of times moderators had to pause and correct shit on the fly was so high that you can't expect players to believe that every single word coming out of the moderator's mouth was what the author intended!

*Instead of a better, but still negbaity text of "Ethnomusicological songs collected from this country inspired..."

EDIT: *My own goddamn grammar errors!
Last edited by Ike on Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Ike
UIUC 13

User avatar
Auks Ran Ova
Forums Staff: Chief Administrator
Posts: 4042
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:28 pm
Location: Minneapolis
Contact:

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:17 pm

Or even better, "some songs collected in what is now this country" or something. Writers in general should try to be very specific when writing polity-based common links since ethnicities can be hard to nail down and borders regularly change--if you can't nail down a clue specifically enough that there's no ambiguity, don't use the clue.
Rob Carson
University of Minnesota '11, MCTC '??
Member, ACF
Member, PACE
Writer and Editor, NAQT

User avatar
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea
Auron
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Specific Question Discussion and Review Requests

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:41 pm

Rob's post makes a fair point, as does Ike's. I think I'll go with Rob's cluing suggestion. And yes, I should try to be more careful.
Will Alston
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS '12, Dartmouth '16, Columbia Business School '21
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor

Locked