Bible/Old Testament Questions: Un-Quizbowl worthy?

Old college threads.
Locked
pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Bible/Old Testament Questions: Un-Quizbowl worthy?

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:17 pm

When playing the UCLA mirror of the ESCO, I was reminded of one thing I absolute HATED when I was a HS quizbowler in the 90's: Bible Questions.

I think Bible (incl. Old Testament) Questions have NO place in Quizbowl. Simply put, they are not academic.

Sure you could study theology in college, but you also could study sport sciences. Many colleges have legitimate courses on the science of football and hockey, does that mean those are now academic?

Does that mean intricate questions about the 3-4 defense or the neutral zone trap are not trash questions anymore? Of course not.

If you want to argue Bible Questions have a place in quizbowl because we live in Judeo-Christian Society, I'll buy that....as TRASH. To say that "Everyone knows the Bible" is to say that questions about the Bible are trashworthy, i.e. that the Bible is somehow engrained in our pop culture.

I am not bringing this up just because I don't know jack about the Bible, it is because I refuse to. Frankly I think it is a joke to put it on the same page as lit/history/science questions.

Don't forget the inherent advantage Christian and Jews have in answering these questions.

I am not even getting into the whole thing about if you are going to have religious questions, packets need to have other religions (incl. NON-holy land religions) adequated represented, because that isn't the crux of my argument.

Everything that constitutes academic questions in Quizbowl should be based on subjects you learn in public HS. You don't learn about the Bible inside and out in public HS. Maybe at a parochial school, or sunday school, but not "regular" high school.

I am alone in thinking that Bible Questions are not worthy of Quizbowl, unless you are talking about trash tournaments?

User avatar
Matthew D
Yuna
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:52 pm
Location: Scenic Grant Alabama

Post by Matthew D » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:23 pm

Actually, there have been several schools in Alabama and across the nation to start teaching the Bible as a lit couse in HS..
Matt Dennis
Coach DAR Quizbowl Team

User avatar
Deviant Insider
Auron
Posts: 4650
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:24 pm

Bible questions absolutely belong in Quizbowl. No book has had a larger impact on our society than The Bible. No book in our society has been studied as much as The Bible.

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:27 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:Bible questions absolutely belong in Quizbowl. No book has had a larger impact on our society than The Bible. No book in our society has been studied as much as The Bible.
So you have no way to appreciate someone like myself coming here and saying that Bible Questions are inherently unfair and do not belong in quizbowl?

And once again, you are feeding my argument: "impact on society" tends to lean towards trash. Many things have huge impacts on society but not considered academic questions. Should questions about Hurricane Katrina be in regular quizbowl or be a trash question? See my point?

Rothlover
Yuna
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:41 pm
Contact:

Post by Rothlover » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:28 pm

"Dude..." - M. Sorice

Bible questions fall under the rubrick of Religion, of the RMP distribution (Religion, Mythology and Philosophy). Are you seriously arguing that the sources that have influenced culture for 99% of recorded history (for instance, the basis for dogma that could lead to the Inquisition or the Index of Forbidden Books) is unimportant? The Bible (and all religion, etc) and Myth, though not largely required for a college education, are foundations of a half-decent education. To say they have no place in a game that should test ones "cultural literacy" (assuming thats the goal of qb), is pretty damn preposterous.
Dan Passner Brandeis '06 JTS/Columbia '11-'12 Ben Gurion University of the Negev/Columbia '12?

User avatar
smithson
Kimahri
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:29 pm

Post by smithson » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:32 pm

I couldn't agree more with Pappy's excellent point. And this reminds me of another thing I absolute HATE: Social Science Questions. I think Social Science (incl. Anthropology) Questions have NO place in Quizbowl. Simply put, they are not academic.

Sure you could study social science in college, but you could also study horticulture. Many colleges have courses on badminton, does that mean racquet sports are now academic?

If you want to argue Social Science Questions have a place in quizbowl because we live in a society, I'll buy that, but only as TRASH. To say that "Everyone knows Social Science" is simply to say that questions about Social Science are trashworthy, if you catch my drift.

I am not bringing this up just because I don't know jack about the Social Science, it is because I refuse to. Frankly I think it is a joke to put it on the same page as lit/history/science questions.

Don't forget the inherent advantage Social Scientists and Paul Litvak have in answering these questions.

Everything that constitutes academic questions in Quizbowl should be based on subjects you learn in public HS. You don't learn about the Social Science inside and out in public HS. Maybe at a parochial school, or Social Science school, but not "regular" high school.

I am alone in thinking that Social Science Questions are not worthy of Quizbowl, unless you are talking about trash tournaments?

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:33 pm

Rothlover wrote:"Dude..." - M. Sorice

Bible questions fall under the rubrick of Religion, of the RMP distribution (Religion, Mythology and Philosophy). Are you seriously arguing that the sources that have influenced culture for 99% of recorded history (for instance, the basis for dogma that could lead to the Inquisition or the Index of Forbidden Books) is unimportant? The Bible (and all religion, etc) and Myth, though not largely required for a college education, are foundations of a half-decent education. To say they have no place in a game that should test ones "cultural literacy" (assuming thats the goal of qb), is pretty damn preposterous.
Half-decent education my a**. I have a BS and JD degrees, and I don't think my education suffered because I didn't take a theology class of any kind in college. Sorry for the tone, but I take great exception at the statement that any religion forms a foundation of a "half-decent education."


About the RMP distro, I noticed last weekend (ESCO, UCLA mirror) too many Bible questions in each packet. Jerry allowed for 1/1 from R, M, and P, and also had later a 2/2 your choice. Many people used the R and both of your choice to write bible questions.

It is simply way too much.

Should quizbowl actively alienate non-Jews and non-Christians?

e_steinhauser
Lulu
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 3:59 pm
Location: Magnolia, AR

Re: Bible/Old Testament Questions: Un-Quizbowl worthy?

Post by e_steinhauser » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:35 pm

I don't think you're going to get any support for this notion here. You're pretty much 100% offbase in your comments. Like it or not, religion has played a huge part in human culture and history for the past 6,000+ years. To refuse to have questions based around this fact is simply burying our collective heads in the sand.
pappy97 wrote:Everything that constitutes academic questions in Quizbowl should be based on subjects you learn in public HS. You don't learn about the Bible inside and out in public HS.
If that were the case, this game would suck beyond all belief. Most American public high schools are pretty poor when it comes to teaching the basics, let alone the finer points of culture, social sciences, etc. The game is set up to test knowledge on the history and creations of humanity (particularly that of Western Civilization) and the natural world.
--eps

Rothlover
Yuna
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:41 pm
Contact:

Post by Rothlover » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:36 pm

pappy97 wrote:
ReinsteinD wrote:Bible questions absolutely belong in Quizbowl. No book has had a larger impact on our society than The Bible. No book in our society has been studied as much as The Bible.
So you have no way to appreciate someone like myself coming here and saying that Bible Questions are inherently unfair and do not belong in quizbowl?

And once again, you are feeding my argument: "impact on society" tends to lean towards trash. Many things have huge impacts on society but not considered academic questions. Should questions about Hurricane Katrina be in regular quizbowl or be a trash question? See my point?
Your point is nonsensical. First of all, Katrina falls under current events, not trash (unless you allude to the delightful Katrina and the Waves, who probably do care about black people.) Secondly, whether or not you realize it, the impact of someone like Descartes has more to do with where society is today than the impact of Derek Jeter or Zamfir (to name people more likely to be known by the "average person" than Descartes.) Key ideas, equations, events and works push society, the same cannot usually be said of Attack of the Killer Tomatoes 2.

And there are plenty of religion q's that are non-biblical. Does a Diwali q make the game biased against people who don't know shit about Diwali? Yes. Because the game is biased against those who don't know stuff. If you learn about the things of which you complain, you will find yourself at less of a disadvantage, both in matches, and in terms of education.
Dan Passner Brandeis '06 JTS/Columbia '11-'12 Ben Gurion University of the Negev/Columbia '12?

e_steinhauser
Lulu
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 3:59 pm
Location: Magnolia, AR

Post by e_steinhauser » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:39 pm

pappy97 wrote:Half-decent education my a**. I have a BS and JD degrees, and I don't think my education suffered because I didn't take a theology class of any kind in college. Sorry for the tone, but I take great exception at the statement that any religion forms a foundation of a "half-decent education."
Well, tough turkey. If you know diddly-squat about the Bible, you have missed out on a huge chunk of literature, considering that so much of English-language literature (particularly the really important/influential stuff) alludes or refers to the Bible in some form. Hence, your literature education is uninformed.
pappy97 wrote:Should quizbowl actively alienate non-Jews and non-Christians?
Yeah, uh-huh ...
--eps

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Re: Bible/Old Testament Questions: Un-Quizbowl worthy?

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:41 pm

e_steinhauser wrote:I don't think you're going to get any support for this notion here. You're pretty much 100% offbase in your comments. Like it or not, religion has played a huge part in human culture and history for the past 6,000+ years. To refuse to have questions based around this fact is simply burying our collective heads in the sand.

If that were the case, this game would suck beyond all belief. Most American public high schools are pretty poor when it comes to teaching the basics, let alone the finer points of culture, social sciences, etc. The game is set up to test knowledge on the history and creations of humanity (particularly that of Western Civilization) and the natural world.
Even if I concede religion should be in regular quizbowl, there is still too much Bible. No one else sees this or can relate? Look at ESCO questions from this past weekend, listen to the NAQT/ICT podcasts. It's ridiculous how many Bible Questions there are.

At the UCLA mirror, I was in awe of the some (many!) great players I saw in action there. But when they (or anyone) answered intricate Bible Questions, that doesn't make me think they are some great quizbowler. It was everything else they answered (and how quickly they answered) that had me in awe, including some questions about religions not popular in America.

So nobody else on this board has any ill will towards the use of Bible Questions? Is there no one who can see where I am coming from?

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:43 pm

If you know diddly-squat about the Mahabharata or the Qu'Ran or Buddist teachings, you have missed out on a huge chunk of literature, considering that much of literature (particularly the really important/influential stuff) alludes or refers to these and other works in some form. Hence, your literature education is uninformed. Tough turkey.

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:46 pm

Rothlover wrote:
pappy97 wrote:
ReinsteinD wrote:If you learn about the things of which you complain, you will find yourself at less of a disadvantage, both in matches, and in terms of education.
You are missing my point. I suck at Art Questions. I don't complain about it because I can learn about it (and should).

I just don't think I should have to learn the in's and out's of the Bible, a book from a religion I don't subscribe to, to be a good quizbowler. But if you (all) see it differently, fine.

But IMHO, if there is one category of questions that just screams unfair, it's Bible Questions.

e_steinhauser
Lulu
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 3:59 pm
Location: Magnolia, AR

Post by e_steinhauser » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:47 pm

Maybe it's just me, but I find the trend of tossups on the more minor books that go "In Chapter Whatever, such and such happens, and in another chapter, the titular prophet says something quasi-memorable" to be pretty annoying. They seem to be one of those questions that are either gotten extremely early or only at the giveaway.
--eps

User avatar
Chris Frankel
Rikku
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:52 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Post by Chris Frankel » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:47 pm

pappy97 wrote:If you know diddly-squat about the Mahabharata or the Qu'Ran or Buddist teachings, you have missed out on a huge chunk of literature, considering that much of literature (particularly the really important/influential stuff) alludes or refers to these and other works in some form. Hence, your literature education is uninformed. Tough turkey.
Dude, a properly edited tournament set religion has at least about 1:1 ratio of Judeo-Christian/Bible:non-Judeo/Christian religion questions. We all agree that the Mahabharata and Koran are important to know for QB, though admitedly not to the level of depth their religious practitioners know it because we're still operating under a Western tradition. But usually you get both questions on the other important ones like Islam, Hinduism, down to the more niche ones like Bahai or santeria. I didn't closely examine the religion in the ECSO set, because it's just not my category (but it still belongs in), but the set was criticized as having balance problems in other categories. Maybe you're just annoyed at that?
"They sometimes get fooled by the direction a question is going to take, and that's intentional," said Reid. "The players on these teams are so good that 90 percent of the time they could interrupt the question and give the correct answer if the questions didn't take those kinds of turns. That wouldn't be fun to watch, so every now and then as I design these suckers, I say to myself, 'Watch this!' and wait 'til we're on camera. I got a lot of dirty looks this last tournament."

User avatar
Sir Thopas
Auron
Posts: 1330
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:10 pm
Location: Hunter, NYC
Contact:

Post by Sir Thopas » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:48 pm

So if I'm not a Buddhist or Hinduist, according to your logic, I have no reason to read the Mahabharata or the Koran, either.

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:49 pm

Chris Frankel wrote:
pappy97 wrote: Dude, a properly edited tournament set religion has at least about 1:1 ratio of Judeo-Christian/Bible:non-Judeo/Christian religion questions. We all agree that the Mahabharata and Koran are important to know for QB, though admitedly not to the level of depth their religious practitioners know it because we're still operating under a Western tradition. But usually you get both questions on the other important ones like Islam, Hinduism, down to the more niche ones like Bahai or santeria. I didn't closely examine the religion in the ECSO set, because it's just not my category (but it still belongs in), but the set was criticized as having balance problems in other categories. Maybe you're just annoyed at that?
Maybe so, because I didn't see the above ratio and I don't know which questions were written by the original packet authors or added by an editor (I know this happened too many times last Saturday).

Consider my objections dropped if this ratio is supposed to be in place for NAQT/ACF/etc:
1:1 ratio of Judeo-Christian/Bible:non-Judeo/Christian religion questions

Rothlover
Yuna
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:41 pm
Contact:

Post by Rothlover » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:50 pm

pappy97 wrote:If you know diddly-squat about the Mahabharata or the Qu'Ran or Buddist teachings, you have missed out on a huge chunk of literature, considering that much of literature (particularly the really important/influential stuff) alludes or refers to these and other works in some form. Hence, your literature education is uninformed. Tough turkey.
Come to Chicago Open, man, and write a tu on "Buddhist teachings." Enlighten us oh beautiful bodhisattvah.

There is plenty of that stuff in quiz bowl, and I think people who are ignorant of that stuff suffer too. No one is saying you don't lose out when you ignore that. You are mock arguing positions no one takes.
Dan Passner Brandeis '06 JTS/Columbia '11-'12 Ben Gurion University of the Negev/Columbia '12?

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:51 pm

metsfan001 wrote:So if I'm not a Buddhist or Hinduist, according to your logic, I have no reason to read the Mahabharata or the Koran, either.
I know many Bible thumpers who refuse to read such works.

But I don't know how many of them are/were Quizbowlers?

Should I be poking holes in my own arguments? :smile:

e_steinhauser
Lulu
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 3:59 pm
Location: Magnolia, AR

Post by e_steinhauser » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:53 pm

[quote="Frankel]I didn't closely examine the religion in the ECSO set, because it's just not my category (but it still belongs in), but the set was criticized as having balance problems in other categories. Maybe you're just annoyed at that?[/quote]

If there was any imbalance in the RMP distribution, it was in the tossup-bonus ratio. I seem to recall more JC tossups, but that's about it. It was one of the few categories I thought was well balanced in the set, with a fair smattering of "books" questions, some minor faiths/heresies, and some historical figures. My recollection of the bonuses isn't so great (mostly because my team didn't hear many), but the few I do remember seemed pretty good.
--eps

User avatar
Chris Frankel
Rikku
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:52 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Post by Chris Frankel » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:55 pm

pappy97 wrote:
Chris Frankel wrote:
Maybe so, because I didn't see the above ratio and I don't know which questions were written by the original packet authors or added by an editor (I know this happened too many times last Saturday).

Consider my objections dropped if this ratio is supposed to be in place for NAQT/ACF/etc:
1:1 ratio of Judeo-Christian/Bible:non-Judeo/Christian religion questions
Not speaking for anyone else, but I've made it a point to enforce this standard when editing tournaments. I think it's convention to hover around that area at most well-edited circuit tournaments and ACF too. NAQT does its own thing; I can't speak for them. And the other thing worth noting is that the QB canon for Judeo-Christian stuff isn't (or at least shouldn't be) limited to Bible questions; there's lots of important academic theology (ranging from early stuff like City of God to the more recent I and Thou) topics, as well as practice-related ones (Jewish holidays, Catholic sacraments, etc) to fill out the Judeo-Christian religious canon. So it's not just like a college version of Bible quiz here.
"They sometimes get fooled by the direction a question is going to take, and that's intentional," said Reid. "The players on these teams are so good that 90 percent of the time they could interrupt the question and give the correct answer if the questions didn't take those kinds of turns. That wouldn't be fun to watch, so every now and then as I design these suckers, I say to myself, 'Watch this!' and wait 'til we're on camera. I got a lot of dirty looks this last tournament."

pappy97
Lulu
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm

Post by pappy97 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:59 pm

Chris Frankel wrote:
pappy97 wrote:
Chris Frankel wrote:
Maybe so, because I didn't see the above ratio and I don't know which questions were written by the original packet authors or added by an editor (I know this happened too many times last Saturday).

Consider my objections dropped if this ratio is supposed to be in place for NAQT/ACF/etc:
1:1 ratio of Judeo-Christian/Bible:non-Judeo/Christian religion questions
Not speaking for anyone else, but I've made it a point to enforce this standard when editing tournaments. I think it's convention to hover around that area at most well-edited circuit tournaments and ACF too. NAQT does its own thing; I can't speak for them. And the other thing worth noting is that the QB canon for Judeo-Christian stuff isn't (or at least shouldn't be) limited to Bible questions; there's lots of important academic theology (ranging from early stuff like City of God to the more recent I and Thou) topics, as well as practice-related ones (Jewish holidays, Catholic sacraments, etc) to fill out the Judeo-Christian religious canon. So it's not just like a college version of Bible quiz here.
Thanks for this clarification.

I guess another thing to consider is that in college bowl you don't have to be a generalist. I was a generalist in HS and did well. Perhaps now if I compete in the future, I need to focus on certain subject areas that fit my strengths.

e_steinhauser
Lulu
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 3:59 pm
Location: Magnolia, AR

Post by e_steinhauser » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:04 pm

One thing to note is that NAQT's distribution does not have a traditional RMP category. I believe that religious questions are spread between the literature, history, and philosophy categories, depending on their content.
--eps

User avatar
Mr. Kwalter
Tidus
Posts: 617
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:48 am
Location: Houston, TX

Post by Mr. Kwalter » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:11 pm

The ECSO set has already been discussed, and there were indeed imbalances. On behalf of the ECSO editing staff I apologize that you were blindsided by an overwhelming rush of bible questions. We two humble Jews certainly do not wish to alienate the circuit goyim, and offer you our most sincere apologies.
Eric Kwartler
Alumnus, University of Texas School of Law

Rothlover
Yuna
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:41 pm
Contact:

Post by Rothlover » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:16 pm

ekwartler wrote:The ECSO set has already been discussed, and there were indeed imbalances. On behalf of the ECSO editing staff I apologize that you were blindsided by an overwhelming rush of bible questions. We two humble Jews certainly do not wish to alienate the circuit goyim, and offer you our most sincere apologies.
Yes, papool, to show there are no hard feelings on my part as well, I humbly offer you the minutes from the latest meeting me and the other Elders of Zion held.
Dan Passner Brandeis '06 JTS/Columbia '11-'12 Ben Gurion University of the Negev/Columbia '12?

UFeng
Lulu
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:34 pm
Location: Gainesville, FL
Contact:

Post by UFeng » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:22 pm

I just don't think I should have to learn the in's and out's of the Bible, a book from a religion I don't subscribe to, to be a good quizbowler.
Who's says you need to read the Bible itself? Pick up Britannica and read about major books and figures from the Bible. Even doing that you should be able to get plenty of questions at the end.

Ethnic history of the Vilnius region
Yuna
Posts: 974
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:50 am
Location: Columbia, SC

Post by Ethnic history of the Vilnius region » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:33 pm

My post here assumes that Pappy is also advocating getting rid of ALL religion questions, not just Judeo-Christian questions. Certainly no one has the idiotic idea that ONLY Judeo-Christian questions should be removed while other major world religions remain in the canon. Right?

To begin. Knowledge of the Bible (and other major religions) is certainly important, academic, and belongs in quizbowl. Today more than ever, it is extremely important that the educated people of the world have some understanding of the world's major religions. Obviously there is no place in quizbowl for questions that attempt to proselytize and no tournament should have disproportionately high numbers of questions about a certain religion, but given the importance of religion to pretty much everything, it certainly belongs in quizbowl.

Certainly the importance of the Bible transcends "pop-culture". For better or for worse, the Bible has played an extremely important role in the history of everything since it was written (along with other major religious texts). It's a bit more important and academic than Frankie Goes to Hollywood. And I'm sure those who like TRASH would LOVE to have religion added to their canon. Yeah.

I find it unfortunate that you as an educated person refuse to inform yourself about religions other than your own. One of the most rewarding experiences for me in quizbowl has been exposure to the world's great belief systems. An educated person should be willing to learn about more than just things that simply pad their person belief system.

I suppose devout Christians and Jews would have an easier time answering Bible based questions. So what. Hindus and Buddhists probably have an easier time answering questions on those religions. People who have lived in Australia will have an easier time answering Australian geography questions. Obviously your life's background will have an effect on what you inherently know as you enter quizbowl. The key to the game is expanding the range of your knowledge beyond what you knew when you entered the game.

If you have been to tournaments in which the Bible was asked about disproportionately, that is a shame. No one religion should dominate a tournament question wise, and if that happens you attended a very flawed event. But your proposal is to kill a fly with a missile. Religion questions have a place in quizbowl, but the key is that they be asked about properly. Perhaps your post will remind us all of that.

pakman044
Rikku
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:56 am
Location: Carrboro, NC
Contact:

Post by pakman044 » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:12 am

While it appears that the thread is cooling down on its own, I would like to remind everyone to please stay as civil as possible, even when arguing your points on a potentially devisive issue. A few earlier posts were skimming the envelope of civility in my humble opinion, so it would much appreciated if everyone would continue to rein in a little.

Thanks from your friendly moderator.

Patrick King

Thread moved to college area where it belonged in the first place. --the management

User avatar
thepowerofche
Lulu
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:25 pm
Location: Etlanna, Jawjah
Contact:

Post by thepowerofche » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:18 am

To: everyone besides pappy97
Re: This thread

Please don't feed the troll. That is all.

User avatar
Scipio
Wakka
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:12 pm

Post by Scipio » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:15 am

The ECSO set has already been discussed, and there were indeed imbalances. On behalf of the ECSO editing staff I apologize that you were blindsided by an overwhelming rush of bible questions. We two humble Jews certainly do not wish to alienate the circuit goyim, and offer you our most sincere apologies.
Dammit, I would have to miss the one bona fide jew-fest of the season.
Seth Lyons Kendall
University of Memphis, 1993-1997
University of Kentucky, 1997-1999, 2000-2008

User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6368
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Post by grapesmoker » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:33 am

ekwartler wrote:The ECSO set has already been discussed, and there were indeed imbalances. On behalf of the ECSO editing staff I apologize that you were blindsided by an overwhelming rush of bible questions. We two humble Jews certainly do not wish to alienate the circuit goyim, and offer you our most sincere apologies.
Whatever imbalances there were, I'm pretty sure they weren't in favor of questions on the Bible. Anyway, I'm not sure what the debate is here; a properly written RMP distribution will contain 1/1 religion, which can be Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or whatever. This hardly qualifies as overrepresentation in quizbowl.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance

Nathan
Wakka
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:42 am

science questions do not belong in QB

Post by Nathan » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:29 pm

first, how many decent public high schools teach science in any detail at all?

second, science questions are inherently unfair. a "science player" can read a book and easily get lit or history tossups (even literary theory)....most philosophy tossups are easy to get that way too.
I can't just pick up an organ chem book and understand Huckel's Rule.
and don't even get me started on math.

third, the rules of science seem to change every century or so...so they certainly belong in trash, not an academic tournament.

fourth, as an eater of organic food and a practitioner of holistic medicine, as well as astrology, I'm personally offended by the presence of science questions. they are an affront to my belief system and have no place at any tournament where I am present.

User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3188
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:54 pm

Let me add that I don't think limiting academic quizbowl to that which is taught in schools is a good idea.

Let me argue by example. Lewis Cass. A great man in American history and a part of the ACF Cannon. But I never learned about Lewis Cass in high school; maybe they teach about him in Michigan, but certainly not in Illinois. I got a high school diploma without knowing or needing to know who Lewis Cass was. Nor do I know about a single class offered here at the University of Chicago where Lewis Cass comes up.

But, surely, nobody would argue that Lewis Cass should not come up in quizbowl. The next time somebody gives you the "we should limit it to what's taught in school", inform them that they must either argue for the exclusion of Lewis Cass (which will make them look stupid) or shut up.

Locked