Sunday fall tournaments

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Sunday fall tournaments

Post by jhn31 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:04 pm

If your team is like mine, it's full of rabid college football fans who wouldn't even miss a road football game to go to a quiz bowl tournament.
For our club, this means hoping that a tournament is scheduled on an open date, and essentially taking the rest of the semester off.

What do people think about holding some Sunday tournaments in the fall? We did attend ACF Fall on a Sunday last year, and it was well attended and worked well. We're thinking about hosting at least an NAQT CUT-style tournament on a Sunday in fall.

Do others think this an issue, or is my team just an anomaly?
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Matt Weiner » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:11 pm

jhn31 wrote:If your team is like mine, it's full of rabid college football fans who wouldn't even miss a road football game to go to a quiz bowl tournament.
For our club, this means hoping that a tournament is scheduled on an open date, and essentially taking the rest of the semester off.

What do people think about holding some Sunday tournaments in the fall? We did attend ACF Fall on a Sunday last year, and it was well attended and worked well.

Do others think this an issue, or is my team just an anomaly?
Seems to be mostly an SEC thing. ACF Fall has been on Sunday in the South more than once in the past for this reason. You do lose some far-off teams who may not want to make the long drive home the day before more classes, but in general it's always the host's decision for any given event as to who is gained and lost from each possible date. I don't see any given tournament editor objecting if you mirrored his event on a Sunday.
We're thinking about hosting at least an NAQT CUT-style tournament on a Sunday in fall.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Ethnic history of the Vilnius region » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:04 pm

jhn31 wrote:If your team is like mine, it's full of rabid college football fans who wouldn't even miss a road football game to go to a quiz bowl tournament.
For our club, this means hoping that a tournament is scheduled on an open date, and essentially taking the rest of the semester off.
I doubt that most teams even in the south have such an extreme prioritization of football over quizbowl. ACF Fall and the NAQT thing at Shorter last year was very well attended on a huge football weekend. I've missed some football for quizbowl and vice versa, but I can't remember a fall where I didn't get all the football and quizbowl I needed, and I've never heard of this as being an issue for other teams before. Even if quizbowl were on Sundays, the logistics of attending a game in, say, Athens, on Saturday night and then driving to a tournament in, say, Tuscaloosa on Sunday are tenuous. The main problem I see with hosting tournaments on Saturdays in the south has more to do with avoiding tens of thousands of extra people on gamedays than anything else. Anyway, if I had a vote, I'd just keep tournaments on Saturdays.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by NoahMinkCHS » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:23 pm

I think a lot depends on how far away we're talking about. You're right, Athens to Tuscaloosa on Sat night and back on Sun night just wouldn't happen. At the same time, I can tell you that we would not have brought six teams to ACF Fall last year had it been on Saturday instead of Sunday. We would have had some, I'm sure, but I don't think Shorter hurt themselves at all (with us or other teams) by mirroring on Sunday, especially since they're so close to us that it was an easy Sunday trip.

I think Matt's point -- "You do lose some far-off teams who may not want to make the long drive home the day before more classes, but in general it's always the host's decision for any given event as to who is gained and lost from each possible date." -- is sort of a definitive statement. The host has to weigh costs and benefits to teams, and consequently, to the tournament, in an individualized way based on the potential attendees and the site of the event. There's no one size fits all answer, but I agree with jhn that it would be nice (and sensible) for hosts, especially at non-football schools, to at least consider non-quizbowl conflicts like these.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by theMoMA » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:49 pm

I can say that the school that has been selected to host ACF Fall Southeast is going to host on Sunday. I'm still soliciting bids for ACF Fall in other regions, so please email me at limozeen@gmail.com if interested (we have selected sites in the Texas-Oklahoma area and Southeast, but we're still looking for sites everywhere else, including Florida).
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by vandyhawk » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:07 pm

Well, "fortunately" Vanderbilt football doesn't exactly inspire die-hard fanhood, so we always like Saturday events much better. For me personally, it doesn't matter much, but all the undergrads prefer to have Sunday to do work and don't want to get home late on Sunday. There are definitely pros and cons for each day though. I don't think people should host on Sunday if there is nothing competing on Saturday, but at a major football school, I don't mind the occasional Sunday event, especially if it actually draws out people who wouldn't otherwise be able to attend.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Captain Sinico » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:41 pm

jhn31 wrote:...wouldn't even miss a road football game to go to a quiz bowl tournament.
That's pretty weak, dude.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by wd4gdz » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:06 pm

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
jhn31 wrote:...wouldn't even miss a road football game to go to a quiz bowl tournament.
That's pretty weak, dude.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:20 pm

jhn31 wrote:If your team is like mine, it's full of rabid college football fans who wouldn't even miss a road football game to go to a quiz bowl tournament.
For our club, this means hoping that a tournament is scheduled on an open date, and essentially taking the rest of the semester off.

What do people think about holding some Sunday tournaments in the fall? We did attend ACF Fall on a Sunday last year, and it was well attended and worked well. We're thinking about hosting at least an NAQT CUT-style tournament on a Sunday in fall.

Do others think this an issue, or is my team just an anomaly?

Its a huge issue for Notre Dame, especially since the driving force behind the team at the moment (that is, me) is in the band and CAN'T skip the home games. In reality, we can only do weekends when ND is along ways away on the road or not playing, or Sundays.

For those who want to know, ND will be free this fall on October 11, 18, 25, November 8, and then the first 2 or 3 weekends in December.

So it seems that we'll be doing Minnesota (the 18th), ACF Fall (the 8th), TTGT11 (Decemberish), and possibly one more. Any ideas for that 4th tournament?
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by mujason » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:33 pm

I couldn't get to TRASH Regionals last November because all the other interested folks at MU were all going to that day's home football game against Texas A and M.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by millionwaves » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:36 pm

If you're thinking about Minnesota Open, may I suggest Illinois Open? It'll probably be of about similar difficulty, may feature TRASH Regionals the following day if they accept our bid or other side tournaments, and since it happened November 8th last year, it'd probably be reasonable to say we'll do it then again.

EDIT: Awkward sentence was awkward.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:22 am

Gengangere wrote:since it happened November 8th last year, it'd probably be reasonable to say we'll do it then again.
Isn't that ACF Fall?
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:26 am

It would *almost* be understandable if MSU had a good football team, but c'mon!
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But in reply to Michelangelo, it's worth saying again that though everyone here knows about the "footbal is like a religion in the SEC" formulation, they don't always really get it. As rabid a college fan as I am, I'm only average among Gators around here, and I'm sure it's actually crazier elsewhere. Having said that, I think people have to make choices, and Sundays will rarely work anywhere near as well as Saturdays. Host on a road game day and plan to have a TV handy in the moderators' room.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by millionwaves » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:34 am

evilmonkey wrote:
Gengangere wrote:since it happened November 8th last year, it'd probably be reasonable to say we'll do it then again.
Isn't that ACF Fall?
Yeah, it sure is. Looks like they've abandoned the traditional first weekend in November. We'll find some other date around then to schedule IO on; we'll have to work around when our high school tournament is, so we won't know until later.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:37 pm

Yeah, see, people often skip events in actual, legitimate religions to go to quizbowl tournaments. Going to quizbowl tournaments entails some sacrifice and always will. If you don't have the will to skip a college football game to go to a tournament, then I have no sympathy for you.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by ValenciaQBowl » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:05 pm

We agree, then, Mike. Except about the "legitimate religion" part--that seems insulting to Urban Meyer, and I demand a retraction.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:17 pm

ImmaculateDeception wrote:Yeah, see, people often skip events in actual, legitimate religions to go to quizbowl tournaments. Going to quizbowl tournaments entails some sacrifice and always will. If you don't have the will to skip a college football game to go to a tournament, then I have no sympathy for you.

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This work better if i wouldn't get kicked out of the band for missing a week. If such a rule was instituted on the qb circuit, i don't think anyone would still be in quizbowl.

As to my teammates... well, if I can't go, then there really isn't anyone motivating or organizing them.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by I'm a goff (in case you couldn't tell) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:57 pm

ValenciaQBowl wrote:We agree, then, Mike. Except about the "legitimate religion" part--that seems insulting to Urban Meyer, and I demand a retraction.
Would that be a retraction like "I didn't make illegal phone calls to that recruit's gymnast girlfriend"?
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:04 pm

If such a rule was instituted on the qb circuit, i don't think anyone would still be in quizbowl.
Among other things, do you know how many people in quizbowl don't go to religious services in order to do quizbowl? I'm thinking of the large number of Jews who would have shabbat during most tournaments, as well as the large number of players who simply don't actively practice or believe in a religion. While it might cut into the number, I think you underestimate how dedicated to quizbowl people are.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:52 am

Deesy Does It wrote:
If such a rule was instituted on the qb circuit, i don't think anyone would still be in quizbowl.
Among other things, do you know how many people in quizbowl don't go to religious services in order to do quizbowl? I'm thinking of the large number of Jews who would have shabbat during most tournaments, as well as the large number of players who simply don't actively practice or believe in a religion. While it might cut into the number, I think you underestimate how dedicated to quizbowl people are.
Contrary to popular belief, God won't smite you immediately if you miss your religious service. Unfortunately in my case, Dr. Dye (the band director) will. And, as much as I love q-bowl, marching band is also a part of my life. I'd be more likely to cut a religious service than a marching band performance for q-bowl, have done the former and not the latter.

I'd be willing to guess that every person on the quizbowl circuit that is at least a junior in college has missed at least ONE quizbowl meet due to work or other stuff going on in their lives, or because they weren't willing to go to that particular tournament alone.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by jhn31 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:13 am

Glad to know I'm not the only marching band member on this forum.


Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone not to go to church, but even here in the Bible Belt, football is more important to almost everyone on the team than church.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:27 am

Okay, so you're in another activity. So are a lot of (most?) people. You're freely making the choice to do that other thing rather than quizbowl; that is fine, of course. If there are a lot of people in that situation, perhaps some arrangement could be made but, since I doubt that's the case and Saturdays are much better for the overwhelming majority of people, I think you're basically stuck taking whichever end of that trade-off you choose. Like, for me, I play both Ultimate and quizbowl; both of those pretty much have tournaments every Saturday and I just have to take that for what it is and choose to go to one or the other (or neither.)
What I'd suggest is that you foster leadership among other people on your club so that the loss of whatever members to whatever other activities on whatever fraction of the days they can't go to stuff doesn't preclude the entire team from going to stuff. The level of organizational genius required to get a team to a quizbowl tournament isn't anything like high.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:32 pm

ImmaculateDeception wrote:Okay, so you're in another activity. So are a lot of (most?) people. You're freely making the choice to do that other thing rather than quizbowl; that is fine, of course. If there are a lot of people in that situation, perhaps some arrangement could be made but, since I doubt that's the case and Saturdays are much better for the overwhelming majority of people, I think you're basically stuck taking whichever end of that trade-off you choose. Like, for me, I play both Ultimate and quizbowl; both of those pretty much have tournaments every Saturday and I just have to take that for what it is and choose to go to one or the other (or neither.)
I don't dispute that other people are in activities. Its just that most other activities are not set up so that if you miss one Saturday, you're kicked off.
ImmaculateDeception wrote: What I'd suggest is that you foster leadership among other people on your club so that the loss of whatever members to whatever other activities on whatever fraction of the days they can't go to stuff doesn't preclude the entire team from going to stuff. The level of organizational genius required to get a team to a quizbowl tournament isn't anything like high.
Unfortunately, all other potential leaders have Notre Dame football as a priority over quizbowl. And I can't change them.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:11 pm

evilmonkey wrote:I don't dispute that other people are in activities. Its just that most other activities are not set up so that if you miss one Saturday, you're kicked off.
Like, so what? Your choice to participate in such an activity precludes you from playing in a lot of quizbowl tournaments. If that's that bad, then choose not to.
evilmonkey wrote:Unfortunately, all other potential leaders have Notre Dame football as a priority over quizbowl. And I can't change them.
Every single person on your team has irresolvable legitimate activity conflicts on every single football weekend? If that's honestly true, you need to recruit some more people.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:36 pm

ImmaculateDeception wrote: Like, so what? Your choice to participate in such an activity precludes you from playing in a lot of quizbowl tournaments. If that's that bad, then choose not to.
The point of this thread was to try to work AROUND those activities so they would not preclude us from playing quizbowl tournaments. If your only contribution to this discussion is going to be "well, if you like quizbowl, you should drop those activities", then maybe this discussion is not for you.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:31 pm

No, Bryce. He's saying that its not a great idea to ask the circuit to work around your problems because Saturday is vastly more convenient. Whether you get kicked off or not is immaterial, because you still are making a fundamental choice - Go to marching band and not go to quizbowl, or go to more quizbowl and get kicked off marching band. There's not too much leeway around it, and you have to prioritize and choose what you find more important and sacrifice the other.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:42 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:No, Bryce. He's saying that its not a great idea to ask the circuit to work around your problems because Saturday is vastly more convenient. Whether you get kicked off or not is immaterial, because you still are making a fundamental choice - Go to marching band and not go to quizbowl, or go to more quizbowl and get kicked off marching band. There's not too much leeway around it, and you have to prioritize and choose what you find more important and sacrifice the other.
I can accept that. I just didn't get that that was his point.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:43 pm

evilmonkey wrote:The point of this thread was to try to work AROUND those activities so they would not preclude us from playing quizbowl tournaments. If your only contribution to this discussion is going to be "well, if you like quizbowl, you should drop those activities", then maybe this discussion is not for you.
The first thing I'm saying is that no workaround exists for you personally because your chosen other activity, due to its rigors and expansiveness (imposed by it alone), completely precludes your going to stuff on the dates that are convenient for a lot of other players. For example, I'd bet we'd not get half the people to tournaments that we do if they were on Sundays. So that the only option is rather drastically inconveniencing everyone else and cutting a good chunk of them out of the game and that's not going to happen.
The second thing I'm saying is that a workaround for the rest of your team exists, and that is getting someone else to guide them to stuff, which I don't think should be too hard to implement. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe we can talk about that instead of all this.
The third thing I'm saying (and this doesn't apply to you personally but rather to the original post) is that "watching football" is not a valid other activity in my eyes. If someone doesn't want to play quizbowl enough to give up a couple football games, then I've got nothing for them.
A fourth thing that I'm now going to say is that I'd appreciate it if you'd consider that I'm directly addressing what you're saying before you tell me that I'm not addressing what you're saying and, especially, before you tell me to go away (in as many words.) In fact, I'd appreciate it if you'd never tell me or any other non-troll poster to go away. I can understand that you might not like what I have to say, but I'm just telling you how it is: it's not reasonable to expect everyone else to change to accommodate you when doing so would incommode a lot of other people.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by jhn31 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:28 pm

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
evilmonkey wrote:The point of this thread was to try to work AROUND those activities so they would not preclude us from playing quizbowl tournaments. If your only contribution to this discussion is going to be "well, if you like quizbowl, you should drop those activities", then maybe this discussion is not for you.
The first thing I'm saying is that no workaround exists for you personally because your chosen other activity, due to its rigors and expansiveness (imposed by it alone), completely precludes your going to stuff on the dates that are convenient for a lot of other players. For example, I'd bet we'd not get half the people to tournaments that we do if they were on Sundays. So that the only option is rather drastically inconveniencing everyone else and cutting a good chunk of them out of the game and that's not going to happen.
The second thing I'm saying is that a workaround for the rest of your team exists, and that is getting someone else to guide them to stuff, which I don't think should be too hard to implement. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe we can talk about that instead of all this.
The third thing I'm saying (and this doesn't apply to you personally but rather to the original post) is that "watching football" is not a valid other activity in my eyes. If someone doesn't want to play quizbowl enough to give up a couple football games, then I've got nothing for them.
A fourth thing that I'm now going to say is that I'd appreciate it if you'd consider that I'm directly addressing what you're saying before you tell me that I'm not addressing what you're saying and, especially, before you tell me to go away (in as many words.) In fact, I'd appreciate it if you'd never tell me or any other non-troll poster to go away. I can understand that you might not like what I have to say, but I'm just telling you how it is: it's not reasonable to expect everyone else to change to accommodate you when doing so would incommode a lot of other people.

MaS
So you don't like watching football. Fine, but that doesn't make it an invalid activity.
Second, you're completely wrong about Sunday tournaments not getting as many people. The only Sunday tournament I've ever attended, 2007 ACF Fall at Shorter, was the largest ACF event of the weekend, and would have definitely had LOWER turnout had it been on Saturday (based on what other teams have said) because of football. So while this may not hold true in Big 10 country, Sunday tournaments in the Fall, at least in the Southeast, appear to be a good idea.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:36 pm

ImmaculateDeception wrote:The first thing I'm saying is that no workaround exists for you personally because your chosen other activity, due to its rigors and expansiveness (imposed by it alone), completely precludes your going to stuff on the dates that are convenient for a lot of other players. For example, I'd bet we'd not get half the people to tournaments that we do if they were on Sundays. So that the only option is rather drastically inconveniencing everyone else and cutting a good chunk of them out of the game and that's not going to happen.
That's fine. If you read my original post, I said that because of those conflicts, we would not be able to go to every single tournament we wanted to, and listed the dates we'd be free, so we could get a gauge of where we could go.
But this opens an avenue of discussion: Are you confident that Saturday is best for everyone in the region in the fall? I don't know about the make-up of Michigan or Ohio St, but since both are also big football schools, I would not be surprised if a Sunday date would enable them to get more interest. I'm not saying we should move heaven and hell to get this to work, but if it appears that it is in the best interest of the region to hold tournaments on Sunday, then perhaps we should. If not, then we'll just accept that Notre Dame won't have perfect quizbowl attendence.
ImmaculateDeception wrote: The second thing I'm saying is that a workaround for the rest of your team exists, and that is getting someone else to guide them to stuff, which I don't think should be too hard to implement. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe we can talk about that instead of all this.
Perhaps for the road game weekends, when I have to travel with the band. However, for the most part, the remainder of my team puts football above quizbowl on the priority list. Also, they won't go to an ACF tournament unless I am with them, because they are of the opinion that ACF IS IMPOSSIBLE.
ImmaculateDeception wrote: The third thing I'm saying (and this doesn't apply to you personally but rather to the original post) is that "watching football" is not a valid other activity in my eyes. If someone doesn't want to play quizbowl enough to give up a couple football games, then I've got nothing for them.
I think in both mine and jhn's situation, he and I are in marching band, and those that are not us are not into quizbowl enough to miss football, and by pushing them to skip football and go to a meet without us would push them away from quizbowl.
ImmaculateDeception wrote: A fourth thing that I'm now going to say is that I'd appreciate it if you'd consider that I'm directly addressing what you're saying before you tell me that I'm not addressing what you're saying and, especially, before you tell me to go away (in as many words.) In fact, I'd appreciate it if you'd never tell me or any other non-troll poster to go away.
I suppose I could have said this better. What I got out of your statement was that we weren't going to look at working around Fall Saturdays, and I was supposed to take your word for it because you are Mike Sorice. It was only when Charlie Dees elaborated on your point that I got the full effect of what you were saying. So perhaps I'll be more cool-tempered, and you'll do better at explaining your reasoning. Deal?

However, I stand by the statement that we should consider the make-up of the schools in the region and discuss whether it is in the best interest of the region to hold Sunday tournaments. If this discussion has been held, or we decide that the majority of schools would be better served by Saturday tournaments, then I'll respect that.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:02 pm

jhn31 wrote:So you don't like watching football. Fine, but that doesn't make it an invalid activity.
Second, you're completely wrong about Sunday tournaments not getting as many people. The only Sunday tournament I've ever attended, 2007 ACF Fall at Shorter, was the largest ACF event of the weekend, and would have definitely had LOWER turnout had it been on Saturday (based on what other teams have said) because of football. So while this may not hold true in Big 10 country, Sunday tournaments in the Fall, at least in the Southeast, appear to be a good idea.
First of all, I love watching football (the kind of Sunday more, actually), I just don't think it's right that everyone else should re-schedule everything in order so that I can watch football. Secondly, if you're saying that Sunday tournaments would be better attended, my experience disagrees.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:16 pm

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
jhn31 wrote:So you don't like watching football. Fine, but that doesn't make it an invalid activity.
Second, you're completely wrong about Sunday tournaments not getting as many people. The only Sunday tournament I've ever attended, 2007 ACF Fall at Shorter, was the largest ACF event of the weekend, and would have definitely had LOWER turnout had it been on Saturday (based on what other teams have said) because of football. So while this may not hold true in Big 10 country, Sunday tournaments in the Fall, at least in the Southeast, appear to be a good idea.
First of all, I love watching football (the kind of Sunday more, actually), I just don't think it's right that everyone else should re-schedule everything in order so that I can watch football. Secondly, if you're saying that Sunday tournaments would be better attended, my experience disagrees.

MaS
I think he's saying that ACF Fall at Shorter on a Sunday was better attended than (in his opinion) if it had been on a Saturday.
Perhaps this is true, given the schools that are part of the Southeast Circuit - Georgia, Mississippi St, Florida, etc.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by wd4gdz » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:29 pm

evilmonkey wrote:
ImmaculateDeception wrote:
jhn31 wrote:So you don't like watching football. Fine, but that doesn't make it an invalid activity.
Second, you're completely wrong about Sunday tournaments not getting as many people. The only Sunday tournament I've ever attended, 2007 ACF Fall at Shorter, was the largest ACF event of the weekend, and would have definitely had LOWER turnout had it been on Saturday (based on what other teams have said) because of football. So while this may not hold true in Big 10 country, Sunday tournaments in the Fall, at least in the Southeast, appear to be a good idea.
First of all, I love watching football (the kind of Sunday more, actually), I just don't think it's right that everyone else should re-schedule everything in order so that I can watch football. Secondly, if you're saying that Sunday tournaments would be better attended, my experience disagrees.

MaS
I think he's saying that ACF Fall at Shorter on a Sunday was better attended than (in his opinion) if it had been on a Saturday.
Perhaps this is true, given the schools that are part of the Southeast Circuit - Georgia, Mississippi St, Florida, etc.
This is almost certainly an incorrect statement. I know for sure we have sent an extra team if it had been on Saturday, but some people didn't want to get back at 1am on Monday morning when they have class at 8am on Monday. I'm not sure why you bother brining up UF, since they hardly attend any tournaments, no matter what date they're on. In general, I support the census that says we shouldn't schedule tournaments on Sunday just so football fanatics and bank geeks can go, since they are generally a minority.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Ethnic history of the Vilnius region » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:34 am

evilmonkey wrote:I don't know about the make-up of Michigan or Ohio St, but since both are also big football schools, I would not be surprised if a Sunday date would enable them to get more interest. I'm not saying we should move heaven and hell to get this to work, but if it appears that it is in the best interest of the region to hold tournaments on Sunday, then perhaps we should.
I don't want to speak for Michigan, but they've done quite well for themselves over the years despite Saturday tournaments.
evilmonkey wrote: I think he's saying that ACF Fall at Shorter on a Sunday was better attended than (in his opinion) if it had been on a Saturday.
Perhaps this is true, given the schools that are part of the Southeast Circuit - Georgia, Mississippi St, Florida, etc.
As Billy pointed out, Florida is pretty irrelevant as far as this quizbowl season goes. Also, MSU was at the Saturday NAQT CUT tournament. The NAQT event was less well attended than Fall, but it was a high school level NAQT event, so obviously lots of teams would pass on that.

The Shorter tournament is a good example of everything working perfectly for a Sunday event to be well attended, mainly because UGA sent 6 extra teams. UGA had a game the Saturday before against Troy at 1:00 PM, so that was an ideal situation for a team to go to a game and then travel to a tournament that was, what, 2 hours away the next Sunday. However, I still think the logistics much of the time would not be ideal.

Selfishly, the team I was with and still work with, South Carolina, would be quite negatively impacted by switching to Sunday tournaments in the fall, so ideally I would like no Sunday tournaments ever. Oh, maybe a few Sunday tournaments a year wouldn't be too bad, but I wouldn't want any more than that, and I definitely think it's unreasonable to suggest that all tournaments in the South be Sunday events. Let's not forget that not every school is a football school.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:39 am

I don't think there's anyone on our team who is especially devoted to watching the football games. Even if a couple of people prefer not to play QB in favor of watching football, we should have enough people next year to field multiple teams anyway.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:43 am

wd4gdz wrote:This is almost certainly an incorrect statement. I know for sure we have sent an extra team if it had been on Saturday, but some people didn't want to get back at 1am on Monday morning when they have class at 8am on Monday. I'm not sure why you bother brining up UF, since they hardly attend any tournaments, no matter what date they're on. In general, I support the census that says we shouldn't schedule tournaments on Sunday just so football fanatics and bank geeks can go, since they are generally a minority.
Oops. Sorry about UF... I'm not knowledgeable about the Southeast Circuit.

I'm not asking you to cater to the band geeks and whatnot. I know that I usually get back from a tournament no later than 9, which would leave plenty of time for homeworks. I know that, had we gotten approved, we would have sent two teams to ACF Fall at Minnesota, just because it was on a Sunday. I don't see why Sunday is any more inconvenient than Saturday. Its just another day.

I'm not asking you to cater to football types. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to exclude them if the best reason is that Saturday is the traditional day for quiz bowl. Obviously, if your travel plans result in you getting back too late for homework, then thats a good reason. If you're devout in your religion (and I've seen no quizbowler who fits that description), thats another. But as far as I've seen, the only argument other than travel distance has been "we've always done it this way, so it would be inconvenient to change that."

So just think about it. Please.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Ethnic history of the Vilnius region » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:54 am

evilmonkey wrote: I know that I usually get back from a tournament no later than 9, which would leave plenty of time for homeworks. I know that, had we gotten approved, we would have sent two teams to ACF Fall at Minnesota, just because it was on a Sunday. I don't see why Sunday is any more inconvenient than Saturday. Its just another day.
I suppose the fact that the day after Sunday is Monday makes a difference to some teams. If you can get back home by 9 PM, well, you have no idea how good you've got it. If you travel 4 hours or more to get to tournaments (which my team almost always does), Sunday tournaments are a bear.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by cornfused » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:00 am

evilmonkey wrote: I know that I usually get back from a tournament no later than 9, which would leave plenty of time for homeworks. I know that, had we gotten approved, we would have sent two teams to ACF Fall at Minnesota, just because it was on a Sunday. I don't see why Sunday is any more inconvenient than Saturday. Its just another day.
We left ACF Fall at Minnesota early, got back at 10:30 or 11.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by wd4gdz » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:20 am

The point I was trying to make was that if you have a long drive, getting home at or after 1am on Monday is much worse than 1am on Sunday.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by dtaylor4 » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:26 am

evilmonkey wrote:But as far as I've seen, the only argument other than travel distance has been "we've always done it this way, so it would be inconvenient to change that."

So just think about it. Please.
The main issue teams that host tournaments have with Sunday tournaments, as mentioned in previous posts, is the high likelihood for teams who would come on Saturday but not Sunday. I'd be willing to bet that the "Saturday but not Sunday" teams vastly outnumber the "Sunday but not Saturday teams." The reasoning doesn't matter one iota. What does matter is the number of teams that show up. I'm pretty sure that most of the circuit would agree that, ceteris paribus, the higher the number of teams at a tournament, the better. In an economic sense, demand (i.e. teams that go to tournaments) drive the market (tournaments.) The only way to move a Saturday tournament to Sunday is to convince other teams affected by the move to go along with it, and if this thread is any indication, that ain't happening.

EDIT: Echo what Billy said.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:49 am

dtaylor4 wrote:The only way to move a Saturday tournament to Sunday is to convince other teams affected by the move to go along with it, and if this thread is any indication, that ain't happening.
I don't yet see this thread as indicative either way for our region. So far from the Midwest we've had two schools represented - Notre Dame and Illinois.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Susan » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:00 am

evilmonkey wrote:I don't yet see this thread as indicative either way for our region. So far from the Midwest we've had two schools represented - Notre Dame and Illinois.
No, you've also had Michigan.

And now you'll have Chicago: the 1-6 teams we send to any event would prefer Saturday to Sunday.
If you're devout in your religion (and I've seen no quizbowler who fits that description), thats another.
I don't think the facts support what you're trying to say here. Try looking at any thread for any tournament that was ever held on Easter, or over the High Holidays, or Passover, to find a whole pile of quizbowlers who don't want a tournament's scheduling to interfere with their religious obligations. Moreover, my own opposition to attending Sunday tournaments stems in part from needing to go to Mass on Sunday, and I know I'm not the only one in that position.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Awehrman » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:14 am

Northwestern certainly prefers Saturday tournaments since sports are obviously not too high on the priority list for us. In the Southwest, at least as football crazy as the Southeast or Midwest, I didn't have much trouble getting teams around for tournaments on Saturdays at Arkansas. Oklahoma traditionally holds its Route 66 tournament on day of the Oklahoma/Texas "Red River Shoot-out" game and does not suffer much from lack of attendance or staff (they keep the game on in the control room).
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by setht » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:31 am

I don't think there's much to be gained from more discussion here. I think everyone that's posted in this thread agrees that hosts should consider holding tournaments on Sundays, and that hosts should decide whether to hold a tournament on Saturday or Sunday based on local team responses. Unfortunately for Bryce/Notre Dame, my guess is that most (possibly all) tournaments in the Midwest will get more teams on a Saturday than on a Sunday, but there's really no way to figure that out by talking about it here, 6+ months before the tournaments in question.

Bryce and other people in clubs that have issues with Saturdays: I suggest you email TDs once tournament announcements start going up, explaining your situation and asking the TDs to poll their audience to see which day works best. After all, the TD is the person you have to deal with, not the people reading this thread. This board is useful for communicating about many things, but I don't think it's particularly suited to this task, since there are lots of clubs that don't seem to be present.

Bryce, you asked earlier for suggestions for more fall tournaments. I think you've already got most of them with Trygve's addition of Illinois Open; the only one I can think of right now is the Early Fall Tournament, which I'm assuming will happen and will get mirrored somewhere in the Midwest again.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by No Rules Westbrook » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:25 pm

Yeah, Seth's right. I think all of us agree that it's fine to schedule and reschedule things in order to get the most ideal possible turnout for tournaments (which doesn't always equal the most teams in a quantitative sense). So, any TD should be willing to move a tourney to whenever, if it results in a more ideal turnout.

Sigh, I guess I can't resist sharing some of the irritation latent in this thread - that "watching football" is being proposed as some sort of "alternative activity" to quizbowl. Well, I guess everything one might do in life is an alternate activity to anything else one might do. My beef is that - I love watching football, college and pro (moreso pro), but it's a passive activity one does in one's free time - it's not like you're actually playing the sport (being in the band is different). I find it a tad insulting to reduce quizbowl to something less important than watching a game...and I share the inclination to think you're not in this show for the right reasons if you think that.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by STPickrell » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:09 pm

It's fine to place 'watching football' ahead of 'playing quizbowl.'

Just don't get too annoyed when people who prefer to 'play quizbowl' clean your clock more often than not.

Other than that, what Seth said. His title of nicest guy on the circuit is well-earned.

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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:21 pm

STPickrell wrote:It's fine to place 'watching football' ahead of 'playing quizbowl.'

Just don't get too annoyed when people who prefer to 'play quizbowl' clean your clock more often than not.

Other than that, what Seth said. His title of nicest guy on the circuit is well-earned.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by cornfused » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:04 pm

evilmonkey wrote:
dtaylor4 wrote:The only way to move a Saturday tournament to Sunday is to convince other teams affected by the move to go along with it, and if this thread is any indication, that ain't happening.
I don't yet see this thread as indicative either way for our region. So far from the Midwest we've had two schools represented - Notre Dame and Illinois.
And Lawrence also prefers Saturdays.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by naturalistic phallacy » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:41 am

ToStrikeInfinitely wrote:
STPickrell wrote:It's fine to place 'watching football' ahead of 'playing quizbowl.'

Just don't get too annoyed when people who prefer to 'play quizbowl' clean your clock more often than not.

Other than that, what Seth said. His title of nicest guy on the circuit is well-earned.
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Re: Sunday fall tournaments

Post by evilmonkey » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:23 am

setht wrote:I don't think there's much to be gained from more discussion here. I think everyone that's posted in this thread agrees that hosts should consider holding tournaments on Sundays, and that hosts should decide whether to hold a tournament on Saturday or Sunday based on local team responses. Unfortunately for Bryce/Notre Dame, my guess is that most (possibly all) tournaments in the Midwest will get more teams on a Saturday than on a Sunday, but there's really no way to figure that out by talking about it here, 6+ months before the tournaments in question.

Bryce and other people in clubs that have issues with Saturdays: I suggest you email TDs once tournament announcements start going up, explaining your situation and asking the TDs to poll their audience to see which day works best. After all, the TD is the person you have to deal with, not the people reading this thread. This board is useful for communicating about many things, but I don't think it's particularly suited to this task, since there are lots of clubs that don't seem to be present.

Bryce, you asked earlier for suggestions for more fall tournaments. I think you've already got most of them with Trygve's addition of Illinois Open; the only one I can think of right now is the Early Fall Tournament, which I'm assuming will happen and will get mirrored somewhere in the Midwest again.

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Also, by the looks of the way the discussion continued, I'd say the matter is closed for the Midwest, and I'm glad we got a chance to discuss it.
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