ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

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setht
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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by setht » Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:54 pm

Captain Scipio wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:There's no such thing as "half-losses" and I don't follow why we need to count those games at all.
If there are no such things as half-losses, there's no such thing as double-counting single losses; those are exactly concomitant concepts. We ought to count those games because they are games between playoff teams and, therefore, their outcomes are, all else equal, as valid as predictors as any other outcomes between playoff teams, including the actual playoff games.
I haven't thought about this all that much, but I'm inclined towards Mike's arguments here. Also, if any rule changes result from this, I think it would be worth putting in a caveat in case the playoff packets are in fact intended to be different from (e.g. harder than) the prelim packets--if this happens, I think throwing out prelim games is justified, and I think teams from the same prelim bracket should be forced to play again in the playoff bracket. Barring something like that, though, I don't see why we shouldn't count prelim matches between teams that wind up in the same playoff bracket (and then probably skip running the same match-up in the playoff rounds, to keep the same schedule of opponents for all teams in a single playoff bracket), as long as it doesn't mess up the playoff schedule by giving some teams fewer games to be played during the playoff rounds than other teams in the same bracket. If that happens, perhaps the teams can repeat some prior match-ups with half weights being applied to the prelim and playoff games or something.

-Seth
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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by Matt Weiner » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:36 pm

setht wrote:Barring something like that, though, I don't see why we shouldn't count prelim matches between teams that wind up in the same playoff bracket (and then probably skip running the same match-up in the playoff rounds, to keep the same schedule of opponents for all teams in a single playoff bracket)
What you describe is just normal crossover playoffs, and it's what should be done when possible.
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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:06 am

wd4gdz wrote:Let's summarize what has gone on here:

Dees criticizes "a tournament where the TD doesn't understand how the finals of their own tournament work," but is then shown the official ACF guidelines, thus proving him wrong.

Dees says "you ran an atrocious tournament that nobody enjoyed," but then the following posts appear:

Trygve says the tournament was "pretty acceptable" and that "I had a pretty good time today"

Phillip George says "I'd like to add my thanks to the pile: to Truman State for hosting, and to all the staffers and moderators for being very nice and professional and contributing to what, for me, was a good first experience with ACF." and "No complaints to register, because I really don't have any; just wanted to pass along that I had a good time"
Like, I totally hate to bring this back up since the discussion now is probably more meaningful, but since this post is very clearly leveled at me I will point out that when I'm hearing people on other teams who are serious players, not just novices who haven't been to major events before, say things such as "fuck this shit" or "this just isn't even fun anymore, I don't really see any point in keeping on playing" or that they were considering asking why Truman even bothered to bid, that strikes me as good evidence that I was hardly the only person who left unhappy. Whether or not these people choose to fully post their opinions on the board is beyond our control, but I hardly find the space of only 2 posts to be condemning evidence against my point that many of the people I ran into were not enjoying themselves by the end of the day.
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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by wd4gdz » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:38 am

Offering constructive criticism is usually much more helpful than spewing vitriol. Saying things like you hope they never host again is ridiculous. I was really happy to see Sorice, for example, say how he'd be willing to help out at their next tournament.
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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:57 am

Saying things like you hope they never host again is ridiculous.
Remind me again where I posted this.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by wd4gdz » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:02 am

#quizbowl
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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by DumbJaques » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:22 am

It seems a bit lame to me to repeat something someone says out of as yet unrevealed motivation in a chatroom amongst personal acquaintances and attack it as if it's been posted in this thread. I'm sure that a number of people in this thread besides Charlie made comments, say, during the tournament that were far less diplomatic (put mildly) than the ones that are posted here, just as a way to vent frustration. When they got back here, they realized that they didn't at all want to discourage future productive qb endeavors in any way, personally attack an entire club directly, etc. I'd be rather pissed off if someone responded to my praise of ACF fall in the discussion thread to note that "HEY CHRIS RAY DURING OUR MATCH YOU SAID THAT [redacted] QUESTION COULD EAT A DICK," because me saying that in exasperation to a teammate is qualitatively not the same as me posting it in the ACF fall discussion thread, and conveys entirely different things. I'm sure saying that Charlie Dees never wants anyone at Truman State to ever host a tournament ever, even centuries from now, is about as accurate as saying that I hope someone digs up the corpse of [redacted] and skull-fucks him.

No specific question information outside of the discussion thread! --mod
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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:26 am

1. Are there publicly available logs for this? It seems kind of insane to bring this up unless there is some way for the world to see this. I know I never remember ever saying that statement.
2. If every angry or sarcastic statement that was over the top said in IRC (a channel that seems to breed these kinds of things) became some kind of damnation of the speakers, I think most of the active members of ACF along with a whole bunch of the rest of the circuit (like yourself) would have been taken to task about a thousand times. I mean, it just seems that IRC is hardly the fairest place to draw an argument out of.
3. Since this will continue to be a subject of discussion as long as you choose to drag it out, my position on Truman hosting things is that if they are able to fully and competently staff it and get everything done reasonably well, then they should certainly host tournaments. However, if they are not able to get the staffers they need for a tournament (as I would argue they were not able to this weekend) then they should either set a field cap to make sure they can in fact host it properly, determine a way to cut down the number of games to make up for the fact there are going to be all kinds of lag, or not host the tournament if this is impossible. This is no different than my stance on every single tournament that will ever be hosted, and I think anyone can agree that this stance eminently reasonable.
EDIT - I guess what Chris said too.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

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Re: ACF Fall Midwest @ Truman State (11-8-08)

Post by ecks » Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:54 pm

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Christopher Stone
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