ICT and Friday night games

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I sent NAQT an email about this topic today and want to get some board feedback because I don't feel like it's been discussed enough, but am I the only person out there who feels like ICT should somehow change their schedule to eliminate Friday night rounds and either run it all at once or move some games over to Sunday? To me it seems like there are no apparent benefits to the current setup, yet there are lots of negatives. Friday night rounds force you to have to leave to travel a lot earlier than you otherwise would have (and given that there are still a lot of places that take some kind of attendance that factors into your grade, it's not as cut and dry as "you can afford to miss a day of class if you really want to play" for everyone), and they also lead to nonsense like having to miss games if your flight is delayed for later in the evening, most notable when Eric Mukherjee last year missed the important game against UC-Irvine in the prelims. It just seems to me that we should make Friday a day strictly for travel so that some teams can get in later than others and not have to worry about missing games, and that given the ICT's nature as a national championship this should be the case even more so that they can accommodate the field better. I want to see if anyone else on the board feels this way, and if so maybe this is something we can band together and convince NAQT to change, especially if it goes well at ACF Nationals.

[Theory Of The Leisure Flask]

IMO, if it's possible for either NAQT or ACF to run everything on a Saturday, then everything should be run on a Saturday, and the fear of running late should simply not be a factor- playing games until 8 or 9 is preferable to playing games over two days. As it so happens, this directly affects us- we're actually going to have one of our players miss the first 2-3 rounds because he can't get out of lab until 3.

[at your pleasure]

Plus, not having games on friday would give people time to recuperate from the trip if they have traveled a great distance. Having games or Saturday and Sunday works well for HSNCT, and it avoids the issues with school absences.

[grapesmoker]

I'm a staunch opponent of two-day tournaments, whether ACF Nationals or ICT. However, the Friday/Saturday combination is much worse than the Saturday/Sunday one. Getting a day off is often a non-trivial thing even for students.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

So since someone voted to keep things the same, can you please post a brief rationale for why you don't see any problem? Since right now all there are only people in this thread giving their reasons for wanting a different system, if someone is willing to articulate their belief in why we are wrong, please post it so we can actually know a reason someone likes Friday night rounds, because I haven't heard one yet.

[dschafer]

I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.

[wd4gdz]

I generally agree with what Dan said. Also, in my previous experiences, it's easier (and cheaper) to fly in the morning.

[matt979]

Hi Everyone,

Before Jeff Hoppes makes a longer response (and before I respond to Charlie's e-mail), I wanted to chime in as an ICT organizer to highlight the distinction between 2010 onward and 2009.

The biggest reasons why a change to the 2009 schedule is unfeasible, in no particular order:
1. Sunday games are out of the question because many teams and staff have already booked early Sunday return flights.

2. Saturday evening games would depend on getting some sort of waiver on the timing when we ostensibly lose the meeting rooms. I don't know whether that's possible at this late date.

3. The basic schedule has been posted at http://www.naqt.com/ict/2009/details.html since at least February 12; changing it after March 7 would hose some teams who had already read and relied on that post.

The biggest reason why the 2009 schedule is such is that the year N ICT has generally had a similar timetable to the year N-1 ICT.

On the other hand, for what it's worth, the most recent post-ICT survey included this question [and responses]:

How would you most like to see the ICT arranged on a weekend?

[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 11% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 32% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 25% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 13% ] I don't care.

(Yes, the "begin Saturday" sentiment outnumbers the "begin Friday.")

None of the above settles anything for 2010 of course. (Partly because of travel logistics from the West Coast, I would strongly prefer that future ICTs be Saturday-only myself, but that obviously hasn't been the NAQT consensus.)

[Important Bird Area]

How would you most like to see the ICT arranged on a weekend?

[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 11% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 32% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 25% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 13% ] I don't care.

(Yes, the "begin Saturday" sentiment outnumbers the "begin Friday.")

I have nothing to add to Matt's post, other than that this survey appears to account for 123% of ICT participants. I've asked R. to clarify the numbers.

[grapesmoker]

I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.

There's no reason for ICT to take two days anyway. Everything could be done on Saturday, and in any case, you can't spare one weekend to attend a national tournament? Saturday and Sunday aren't work days, which is why having the tournament happen on those days is optimal, rather than forcing people to beg for days off.

[at your pleasure]

Upon looking at the schedule, it seems like it would be perfectly feasible to run the tournament over one (long) day. If people need Sunday to catch up, they can fly back late Saturday( or fly out Sunday morning and bring schoolwork with them). My original post advocating a Saturday/Sunday breakup was on the assumption that the field was significantly larger than it will, in fact, be.
EDIT: Schaefer, I assume you accounted for the fact that if you do not miss Friday, you will have less work to catch up on.

[Mechanical Beasts]

I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.

Your experience, not so universal. I can sure skip them, but I can't skip the midterm I have Friday morning before the ICT. Sometimes real life is real.

[Important Bird Area]

How would you most like to see the ICT arranged on a weekend?

[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 11% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 32% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 25% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 13% ] I don't care.

(Yes, the "begin Saturday" sentiment outnumbers the "begin Friday.")

I have nothing to add to Matt's post, other than that this survey appears to account for 123% of ICT participants. I've asked R. to clarify the numbers.

Apologies for the fact that we seem to have mixed percentages with raw numbers of votes.

The correct values are:

[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 8% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 23% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 18% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 9% ] I don't care

[dschafer]

Upon looking at the schedule, it seems like it would be perfectly feasible to run the tournament over one (long) day. If people need Sunday to catch up, they can fly back late Saturday( or fly out Sunday morning and bring schoolwork with them). My original post advocating a Saturday/Sunday breakup was on the assumption that the field was significantly larger than it will, in fact, be.
EDIT: Schaefer, I assume you accounted for the fact that if you do not miss Friday, you will have less work to catch up on.

Work for me is pretty much "homework/projects" at this point; missing Friday means missing lectures, while missing Sunday means missing lots of potential homework/project time. For people for whom work means, well, "work", missing Friday would obviously be more difficult.

I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.

Your experience, not so universal. I can sure skip them, but I can't skip the midterm I have Friday morning before the ICT. Sometimes real life is real.

Yeah, I understand completely; if I had a midterm or major assignment due, I'd feel the same way.

Honestly, I'm not sure which schedule I believe is best for all parties involved. For my particular situation for this particular year, though, the Friday-Saturday schedule ended up being ideal, and I figured I'd toss that out there as an example of where the Friday-Saturday schedule would work out.

[Captain Sinico]

You do realize that you've by definition polled people for whom the current schedule works, right?

MaS

[Susan]

In response to Mike's post, would it be feasible to poll this year's SCT attendees (emailing team contacts, or whatever) for a decision about the 2010 ICT? (I'm assuming that polling attendees of the 2010 SCTs wouldn't leave enough time to make a decision about that year's ICT.)

The Friday-Saturday setup of the ICT has struck me as a holdover from the earlier days of the circuit (for example, I recall that both ELVIS and Deep Bench used such a schedule back in the day) that I would be glad to see go. I strongly prefer one long Saturday tournament, if possible (and I don't see why it shouldn't be possible), but if a two-day tournament is inevitable, I prefer Saturday/Sunday to Friday/Saturday.

[Important Bird Area]

You do realize that you've by definition polled people for whom the current schedule works, right?

MaS

Yes, we know. I've asked R. to expand future surveys to include the teams that decline ICT bids as well. I can't think of an easy way to identify individual players who have schedule conflicts, but if you're in this situation, please write to us. We're open to changes for 2010.

Edit: I cross-posted with Susan. Polling this year's SCT attendees seems like a fine idea. I'll suggest it to R.

[Cheynem]

I strongly prefer a one-day tournament. If it has to be stretched out for two days, I guess I would prefer Saturday-Sunday because it's never cool to have to play the night you've driven in.

[#1 Mercury Adept]

Friday night rounds force you to have to leave to travel a lot earlier than you otherwise would have (and given that there are still a lot of places that take some kind of attendance that factors into your grade, it's not as cut and dry as "you can afford to miss a day of class if you really want to play" for everyone)

This is why I for one am not going to ICT – I know I could just skip class, it's what everyone does and all, but (even though none of my classes this semester are the kind where every absence costs you a percentage point or whatever from your average) I don't feel comfortable doing so.

[matt979]

In response to Mike's post, would it be feasible to poll this year's SCT attendees (emailing team contacts, or whatever) for a decision about the 2010 ICT?

This is an excellent idea, with the side benefit that it will confirm that NAQT has the right e-mail contacts for the teams in question. (SCT hosts were expected to give us their e-mail contacts for each of this year's teams; not all hosts actually did so promptly.)

[tiwonge]

To add to what others were saying, as a grad student and TA, I teach a class. My class meets on Friday afternoon, and while I could potentially find somebody to cover the class for me, it's not something I want to do. I suppose this is something that affects DI teams more than DII teams.

[Captain Sinico]

Yeah, I guess I should add my perspective, too. I'm going to have to call in some favors to have someone else run my lab Thursday evening (since we're driving, we've got to leave then.)

MaS

[grapesmoker]

This shouldn't even be subject to polling. It's actually very simple: Saturday and Sunday are the weekend, and that means that people who work don't work then. That's it, that's the only justification you need to have the tournament on those days and have Friday night available to travel.

[Mike Bentley]

Eh, I can think of justifications to hold the tournament on Friday/Saturday, even if I don't really think it's optimal. Flying out on Saturday night, for instance, is generally cheaper than flying out on Sunday at any point. You also save money on a hotel room, since you only need to book one for Friday night, rather than Friday and Saturday night.

That being said, there are also many valid arguments for hosting on just Saturday or, if necessary, Saturday and Sunday.